Who allowed private groups enough power to take over Detroit public schools?

[madfloridian]

This is stunning to me...that 70 schools in Detroit are being replaced with 70 new schools. The group doing the taking over is called Excellent Schools Detroit. It is apparently a coalition of groups with vast power.

Excellent Schools Detroit announced last week that it planned to replace failing Detroit schools with 70 new ones and make a $200-million initial investment -- a plan unprecedented in scope anywhere in the country

Someone must have allowed this takeover to happen. It appears the Gates Foundation, the Skillman Foundation, and probably the Broad Foundation through Robert Bobb, one of their Broad superintendents are quite wealthy and influential groups. Public education is being handed to them with barely a whimper.



Members of Excellent Schools Detroit talk about the citywide education plan Wednesday. From left, they are: New Urban Learning Founder Doug Ross, Skillman Foundation chief Carol Goss and Detroit Public Schools emergency financial manager Robert Bobb. (PATRICIA BECK/Detroit Free Press)

Releasing details of an ambitious plan to remake schools in the city of Detroit, a coalition of nonprofit organizations said Wednesday that it plans to push for mayoral control of Detroit Public Schools, set up an independent commission to grade every school in the city, including charters, and establish a goal of graduating 90% of kids from high school by 2020.

The group, calling itself Excellent Schools Detroit, announced last week that it planned to replace failing Detroit schools with 70 new ones and make a $200-million initial investment -- a plan unprecedented in scope anywhere in the country. The group has commitments from the Gates Foundation and other national groups willing to come to Detroit, said Carol Goss, CEO and president of the Skillman Foundation, a key leader in the effort.

Who gave this coalition the power to disband the school board and turn the schools over to mayoral control.

As those schools close, they would be replaced by new schools paid for from $200 million in grants provided by four foundations, led by the Skillman Foundation. The education plan, "Taking Ownership: Our Pledge to Educate All of Detroit's Children," is to be released to the public today. It is full of strategies to boost student performance. These are among the key components:

• Turning over control of Detroit Public Schools to the mayor.

• Abolishing the elected school board.

• Generating public pressure on DPS and charter school operators to close failing schools or programs.

Detroit Schools are fighting back, but the ones they are fighting have the power and the money...and they have big big influence with Arne Duncan and the Obama administration.

Detroit Schools board sues Robert Bobb over private compensation

The Detroit Public School Board unanimously voted Monday night to file a second lawsuit against Emergency Financial Manager Robert Bobb, saying $145,000 in private foundation support he receives under his new contract is unlawful.

"It's a conflict of interest," said DPS board member LaMar Lemmons.

Bobb's supplemental income from private foundations increased from $84,000 last year to $145,000 this year, under a one-year contract extension signed by the governor and state superintendent this month. The only philanthropic donor publicly identified is the Broad Foundation, whose support of charter schools has stirred controversy among some members of the DPS community.

"This is more than putting the fox in charge of the hen house, it's serving up the hens to be eaten by this guy," said George Washington, an attorney representing the teachers and community activist groups who have spearheaded the lawsuit and who urged the board Monday to join them.

This is private venture philanthropy performing a hostile takeover of Detroit Public Schools. It's not a surprise that Bobb's salary includes their private money.

It's not a surprise that Broad and Arne Duncan are friends.


Arne Duncan and Eli Broad
Broad Inauguration Party in Washington D.C., Tuesday, Jan. 20, 2009. (Photo/Stuart Ramson)

The Inauguration Party thrown by Broad for President Obama.

The guest list looked like a who’s who list of Washington old and new: Hillary Clinton, Mr. Obama’s choice for secretary of state and her husband, former President Bill Clinton; Lawrence Summers, the former treasury secretary and new White House chief economics adviser; Paul Volcker, former chairman of the Federal Reserve; Arne Duncan, Mr. Obama’s pick for Education Secretary, Leon Panetta, the nominee for director of the C.I.A.; Vernon Jordan, the power lawyer, as well as media celebrities like Larry King and Charlie Rose.

It is getting more blatant every day....this hijacking of public education for profit.

[naaman fletcher]

1. I'm generally against charter schools and such, but can this possibly be worse

for detroits children than the current system?

[madfloridian]

2. Yes, it is deregulating schools and privatizing them.

But it you think that is ok, that is your right.

I mean, deregulation has worked so very well in this country recently, hasn't it?

[vadawg]

5. most important thing is, will it work, if it gets a better education to the kids

then go for it. Afterall lets be honest its the kids that count more than anything else. if the present system is failing then why not try something new..

[omega minimo]

9. you don't know what you're talking about

if this is the first of MF's OPs you've clicked, please check out the journal. This is a nationwide effort to shock and awe public schools/communities and privatize the education system.

[vadawg]

10. so where do you disagree with my statement that if it works then thats good

and that the kids come first, hell if making every teacher wear a superman costume helped to educate the kids then i would be for it, if private works better than public then private should be it, and as the system is failing so many kids at the moment mayby its time to try something radical and different...

[omega minimo]

42. your potential discussion will benefit from being better informed about the issue.

MF's threads and Journal are an excellent source. The one incident here is part of a larger whole. It's about privatization, not about kids.

[vadawg]

49. no its not, you have one side who want privatisation, then the other who want public

it seems that both sides are more concerned with winning for their side rather than the kids, otherwise people would have no problems with alternatives being looked at and parents being given choices...

[omega minimo]

53. that's bullshit. after reading the thread, i don't believe you at all. total disinformation.

[LWolf]

119. It doesn't work.

Which you would know if you were aware of the history of the movement.

[MattBaggins]

171. Of course you would be all for this. No surprise there.

So how do you feel about setting the schools up for failure then saying "see we told you so"?

So you think firing all our teachers and replacing them with H1B visa holders is a good idea?

Would you say it is fair that all these new schools must meet ALL the requirements that public schools had to face and not receive any variances?

Will they be required to operate the same as a public school in excepting local students. If someone lives in the district served by a charter they can go to that school and enroll their child there?

Will the charter schools be forced to make public; every nickel and dime they spend? EVERY NICKEL AND DIME.

Will you support forcing charter schools to work with local communities and give up this nonsense of abolishing local school boards?

The charlatan err Charter schools are always screaming about accountability. They push for mass firings of teachers with no option for them to sue. If a charter school is failing how does the local community fire them and make the contracts null and void with no chance for law suits?

Would you also support that all charter schools administrators must except pay and wage controls just as they expect from the teachers? If the teachers are to receive pay cuts then so must these charter school pushers. If the city schools director only makes a 100K for 10,000 students; then no charter school administrator should be making 500k for a few 100 students.

[Hannah Bell]

35. the entire detroit district budget in 2008 = $4.5 million. i'm sure $200 million

will buy more education for 70 schools.

i wonder why these caring folks didn't think of it earlier.

i wonder if it buys them some nice urban properties.

[proud2BlibKansan]

136. Are you sure about that Hannah? That's awfully low.

[tonysam]

141. I'll bet it's "billion." WCSD in Nevada's budget is 400 million annually.

It's smaller than Detroit's school district.

[tonysam]

142. Eli Broad was born in Detroit, by the way. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

201. i allow i may be wrong. i pulled it off a budget report without looking at it too carefully.

could be it was just city expenditures w/o fed funds or something similar.

edit: looks like i *am* wrong. i don't know what i was looking at, this says 1.2 billion (general fund expenditures, p. 27.)

http://www.detroit.k12.mi.us/data/finance/FY%202007-2008%20ADOPTED%20BUDGET-1.pdf


mea maxima culpa.

[AdHocSolver]

92. Privately run education will improve learning just as private insurance gets you better health care.

The entire approach to education in this country is flawed. The textbooks, the curricula, the way teachers are trained, the politicization of education in this country, and the amount of corporate control all contribute to the poor outcomes in the education of children.

Charter schools and private schools may change the actors. However, the methodology and the outcomes will be essentially the same. The children will be no better off.

[Catshrink]

126. It won't work because it doesn't address the underlying problems

of poor performance. The schools that are being taken over en masse like Detroit -- Rhode Island & LA, for example -- are all in high poverty areas. The issues of poverty, unemployment, etc. need to be addressed before any school system has a chance of success.

Eli Broad admitted that he knows nothing about education or teaching reading but he knows about management. Schools are not like businesses. He will learn this in time but unfortunately his lesson will not benefit Detroit's school children. It might help if these billionaire business people would talk to teachers but teachers don't have the ears of politicians. What do we know about education? Money talks.

[420inTN]

165. One can argue that poverty won't be solved...

until you have a better educated population than can get better paying jobs than being McBurger slaves. And a better educated population will take more pride in their property and neighborhood and work against the blight, thus increasing property values.

there's no easy fix for deterioration of our inner cities. there's no either/or solution. let's take a multiple angled attack on the problems. If we can get these kids better educated, at least they have a chance of getting out of poverty.

[naaman fletcher]

8. look I am not a fan of that sort of thing, I just don't see how anything can be worse than now. nt

[madfloridian]

14. Then you are not thinking about it seriously as to what it portends for the future.

[midnight]

30. Boy I have to wonder how the banks were able to hoodwink the regulators to

remove the glass steigle act, or the corporations to reinterpret the anti trust laws.

[Demeter]

139. Detroit's Problems are so immense

the plan will very likely not work at all, but if some new buildings result, the city can take them over at a later date.

My grandmother taught in Detroit. I went to grade school there. That was 40 years ago. Nothing has improved since.

You cannot imagine how bad it is. Detroit was abandoned by everyone from the Feds on down.

Truly, this is an experiment. There's no law saying unions are forbidden, or that local control is absolutely impossible.

It is more an act of charity than profiteering. Even if they think there are profits to be had, there aren't.

[mstinamotorcity]

254. Detroit is not as bad as some think

This privatization of schools has no accountability.And while you are talking about how bad it is what do you think will happen when these bad folk get out of work? did you know it will be in the thousands before its all over? they are setting up our children to fail. You experiment with lab subjects not children.And believe it or not a lot of the children who attend DPS are children or grandchildren,nieces, nephews of DPS employees or vendor companies who service DPS.You say your grandmother taught in DPS tell me why is it that some of the teachers are still using some of the same methods of teaching.for a successful school system it takes qualified teachers,administrators,parents,support staff (social workers,counselors),and willing children and a community that embraces each child with same encouragement and respect that they would give to their own children.IMHO

[vadawg]

3. not sure how bad the school system is in detroit, but if they are going to downsize the city

the school system will have to contract with it. i guess we will see if the new system works better..

[SharonRB]

29. Believe me, the school system in Detroit is awful

and has been for years. It couldn't possibly get worse. Drastic measures must be taken or it will never turn around. Corruption has been rampant on the school board and within the district. Robert Bobb has finally started them on the right path and Mayor Bing is finally taking control of things in the city as a whole and so far doing better than Kwame ever could have dreamed of. He's the best thing to happen to the city in a long time.

[madfloridian]

31. Gates, Skillman, and Broad et al will do wonderful things.

I am quite sure they will put the children first, and not their profits.

:eyes:

[AdHocSolver]

100. Gates made billions by selling crap software and engaging in many nefarious business practices.

Gates' beat the competition by selling software that corrupted any programs sold by competitors that you installed on your computer. He used Microsoft's deep pockets to bankrupt competitors with countless frivolous lawsuits. Microsoft extorted money from computer sellers by forcing them to pay for a MS operating system for every PC computer sold whether the hardware had MS-DOS or MS Windows installed or not.

Let's not forget that Microsoft is the leader in computer crashes, hacking, viruses, worms, and Trojans. If they haven't been able to get their core business right (other than making lots of money off of it), why would anyone think that they could improve education, a much more complex process.

[Catshrink]

129. And he knows nothing about education.

None of these billionaires has taught. Until someone has done the job, one really doesn't understand how education works. The experts are at the bottom of the power structure which is most likely why no one gives a crap what teachers say will improve education.

[proud2BlibKansan]

137. LOL

[BeatleBoot]

54. SharonRB - You live here and understand!

Couldn't agree more with your post.

[Hannah Bell]

75. where is "here," beatleboot? which suburb do *you* live in?

[SharonRB]

220. Yes, I do

And I've spoken to teachers who live and teach here who also agree. Things can't be allowed to continued as they are. And just because the people who are investing in these changes are rich doesn't mean they're in it for the money. I truly believe they're in it to help the kids -- they really don't need the money.

[Hannah Bell]

231. sure, they're all such caring folk. eli broad = real estate/pensions/AIG

just for starters.

"they don't need the money" -- lol. they didn't "need" the money 20 years ago, either. but somehow, they kept getting it.

& their little tax-free investment funds -- oh, excuse me, "philanthropies" -- are one reason why.

[BeatleBoot]

244. Off the charts.

Wow.

This is now way beyond comprehension.

Enjoy the tin foil hat.

It fits you well.

[Hannah Bell]

74. you don't *live* in detroit. you live in a 96% white suburb with a median family income of $97K.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntington_Woods,_Michigan

[blue_onyx]

169. Nice to see...

someone who doesn't even live in the area pushing the Detroit vs. suburbs nonsense.

[BeatleBoot]

198. Another Straw Man, isn't it?

[Hannah Bell]

205. hardly. perhaps you should check the dictionary.

[Hannah Bell]

204. the fact is, the poster doesn't live in detroit. she lives in a wealthy white suburb.

i'm not sure how you turn that *fact* into "pushing the detroit v. suburbs nonsense".

The fact is that detroit's surrounded by wealthier, whiter suburbs. the fact is that there's plenty of population surrounding detroit. the fact is that detroit metro has (even given the two year economic downturn) a lot of high-tech, corporate money.

[blue_onyx]

211. What is the point...

of pointing out that the poster doesn't live in Detroit? To prove her opinion has less importance?

[Hannah Bell]

216. not at all. simply that she represented herself as a detroit resident with

a resident's knowledge of the district's schools, etc.

but she lives in an incorporated suburb.

detroit city = 70% black, median family income about $33K.

her suburb - 96% white, median family income about 100K.

thus we better understand from what perspective her comments come.

[SharonRB]

224. I wasn't trying to represent myself as living in Detroit.

I read the papers, I watch the news. I know what's been going on in Detroit for years. My father taught in Detroit and was an administrator in the district until the stress of it gave him a heart attack when he was 60, 26 years ago. He had bypass surgery and retired. It was just too much to take, even back then. So, yes, I do understand even though I don't live "in Detroit." Detroit and its surburbs are entertwined -- they don't stand in isolation to each other.

If you lived anywhere near here, maybe you'd be able to understand. So don't judge me when you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You don't know me. Stop generalizing just because you have some demographic statistics from Wikipedia.

[blue_onyx]

228. "Detroit and its surburbs are entertwined "

Exactly! That's why I made my comment about "someone who doesn't even live in the area pushing the Detroit vs. suburbs nonsense." The divide is something that everyone has to get over because our futures are connected.

I find it odd that some who read about Detroit think they are more informed than those clueless folks who live in the Detroit suburbs.

[Hannah Bell]

230. i also read the papers & watch the news, same as you. i have friends from detroit

since the 70s. & you know as much about schools in detroit as a white seattle suburbanite knows about schools in seattle's central district or rainier beach.

which is to say, what they read in the paper, despite the proximity.

[blue_onyx]

227. And you don't even live in the state

which gives everyone a better understanding of your perspective.

She never said she lived in Detroit.

One doesn't have to live in the boundaries of Detroit to know the problems that effect the city and it schools.

[Hannah Bell]

229. i've never been inside a detroit school, & neither has she. but i live in a low-income

area, & have volunteered in low-income schools.

has she?

[blue_onyx]

238. How do you know she's never been in a Detroit school?

How do you know she hasn't "volunteered in low-income schools?" You are making a lot of assumptions in your attempt to prove that you are more informed than people who actually live in the Detroit area.

[SharonRB]

222. The suburbs are losing population, too

I'm in an older, inner ring suburb, just two miles from Detroit. There are plenty of foreclosures in my area as well. The downturn has affected everyone around here, whether or not they live "in Detroit." None of us lives in isolation from what happens in the city, and if this plan can help turn things around then I'm all for it. It's time for real change and I'm impressed with this. It's about time someone cared enough to help.

[Hannah Bell]

232. huntington woods foreclosure rate = 1/642 units

http://www.realtytrac.com/TrendCenter/MI/huntington+woods-trend.html

Estimated median house or condo value in 2008:
Huntington Woods: $310,226
Michigan: $151,300

Lower value quartile - upper value quartile: $236,634 - $381,137

Mean price in 2008:

Detached houses: $352,175
Here: $352,175
State: $192,870

Townhouses or other attached units: $305,400
Here: $305,400
State: $162,147

In 5-or-more-unit structures: $90,392
Here: $90,392
State: $135,097



Read more: http://www.city-data.com/housing/houses-Huntington-Woods-Michigan.html#ixzz0i8C5lOAY



"cared" = lol.

right, all those financiers suddenly "care", shortly after they nearly took down the entire globe with their bankrupt schemes.

[SharonRB]

245. Housing prices have droped a lot since 2008.

You sound like a very bitter person. I'm done. It's just not worth arguing with you anymore.

[SharonRB]

221. Makes no difference.

What happens in Detroit affects its surrounding suburbs and the entire state. I'm only two miles away from the Detroit border.

And, for the record, our family income is well below that median. My husband hasn't worked in 6 years and I've been the sole breadwinner. I don't make anywhere near $97K.

[nonconformist]

234. Look, you know *nothing* about Detroit. NOTHING.

You've proved it time and again. It's starting to be laughable, actually.

[etherealtruth]

114. The Detroit School System has failed the students of Detroit miserably ...

... for many generations. The city is surrounded by public school districts that range from functional to excellent (overall providing the children outside the city with a good education). The children from the DPS have difficulty competing with children from the region in college, in the work place and life because they have been so poorly served. It really is hard to imagine anything being worse than the current situation.

[jody]

122. Education policy is now a divisive, polarizing political issue like God, Gays, Guns. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

140. There are folks here in my metro area who say our urban system is bad also

And they either ignore or don't know about the good schools.

My school was named one of the top elementary schools in the state yet people in the district don't even know that. We got minimal media coverage. Can't have any good schools in a crappy urban district! That would interfere with the privatization campaign.

In other words, even if you live there, don't believe all the negative memes about the urban schools.

[sufrommich]

253. I agree with everything you've said Sharon. You'll take a lot of

flack for it,but you're right.

[Hannah Bell]

36. but this isn't contracting it. funny how you missed that.

funny the folks making the $200 million "investment" don't understand, as *you* do, that the system must be contracted.

maybe because they're property speculators.

[StClone]

4. Billionaires that's who

If there is money, any kind of pension pool, Social Security Trust, military funds, there is a Republican (mostly) doing the bidding of some Billionaire to access that money...posted priviously on DU.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5787

[omega minimo]

6. DUers who still don't understand the big picture of what is going on here are recommended to read

MadFloridians DU journal of excellent essays on this vital matter.

[madfloridian]

7. It's unsettling that the first few posts think dismantling public schools is a fine idea.

It tells me a lot about where Democrats have gone recently.

[ibegurpard]

13. yup

thanks for keeping this stuff in the forefront

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tango-tee]

109. A deeply troubling state of affairs, isn't it?

And all of this under a Democratic admin. I have to admit I don't get it - or I do "get it" and don't want to admit it to myself.

Good, solid public education is what our children and granchildren need. But an educated populace, capable of critical thinking, may get in the way of certain folks...?

madfloridian, you and several others who are passionate about education, please keep going! Thank you so much for all you are doing!

[420inTN]

166. yeah, we should keep these failing schools in public hands.

[MattBaggins]

174. Yeah turn them over to private entities

who espouse removing all local control particularly by eliminating local school boards. Do all this under the mantra of accountability. Let's turn them over to groups who actually openly tell us they intend to thumb their noses at us.

Let's give up any chance we have of having a say in our schools all the while tar and feathering teachers under the guise of "reform" and "accountability".

Accountability... isn't that such a great buzzword.

[420inTN]

177. yeah, let the local school board fix 'em. they've done a great job so far.

And they are the pillars of accountability.

[MattBaggins]

180. This is not a difficult concept

DO SOMETHING...

Really it is that simple. Get involved in the local school system and the kids of your community.

Bitching about how things are done when you have an option to help; and using that as a justification to sign over any right to have a say in your school is about as brain dead of a suggestion I have ever heard.

[420inTN]

181. Considering that Detroit is about 750 milies from where I live

bitching is a lot easier.:)

[MattBaggins]

183. This isn't just about Detroit

They want to use this Piratization plan to establish Charlatan Schools from coast to coast.

[420inTN]

190. My discussions have been about Detroit.

I'm not calling for the privatization of all schools across the country. However, if Detroit has 70 FAILING schools, then the Detroit School Board (note: I said school board, not teachers) are severely lacking in some regard and haven't been up to the task of doing their jobs.

What will it hurt to allow non-profits to come in and try to fix these FAILING schools? It won't hurt the students. The schools are already failing them.

I'm not saying that privatization is the answer everywhere, but it might be the answer in Detroit (at least for now).

[AdHocSolver]

217. The non-profits will not address the real issues so they will fail, but there will be no redress.

The corporate non-profits will merely do what the public schools subject to No Child Left Behind do, that is, teach to the tests to boost test scores. No real learning will, or can, take place under those conditions.

We currently have privatized health insurance. Privatized education would be no better.

Privatizing education would work as well as privatizing Social Security.

Privatizing one educational system, with its rigged outcomes, would be a slippery slope to total corporate takeover of the country. The non-profits would point to the rigged improvement in test scores and convince the "illiterate" masses that they can do better than public education, that we should privatize all education, and the game of democracy is over.

[420inTN]

239. So, since you are a "Solver", what's the solution to failing schools?

You keep repeating what WON'T work, so what WILL work to fix the schools?

[AdHocSolver]

247. Glad you asked. The first step in solving a problem is to understand what is the problem.

The reason the proposed solutions by nonprofits, Arne Duncan, Barack Obama, and myriad others won't work is that they merely continue the same mistakes in another format.

First consideration is to avoid taking too seriously the gibberish spouted by colleges of education. I earned all the credits necessary for a teaching certificate, and except for two professors, I was not impressed with the supposed expertise about children or teaching espoused by the college of education that I attended.

Next, understand the basis for the organization of education in this country. The current form of school systems goes back to the early twentieth century when America was experiencing rapid expansion of industry together with a large wave of immigration. The goal of education was to rapidly train a large number of immigrants in the skills necessary to fill the factories and offices of the corporations.

Education in the classical sense was not required nor desirable. A school day would consist of six or seven 50-minute class periods each day for five days a week. Each teacher would assign homework consisting of reading a textbook and answering questions or doing math problems. The goal was to push youngsters through the system quickly with enough skills to fill the many jobs waiting for them on the outside.

This was more or less the pattern when my parents went to school, when I went to school, and when my kids went to school. It is a poor way to organize a school for real learning. The model is comparable to grinding meat and stuffing sausages on an assembly line.

Another problem with this approach is the compartmentalization of skills. Instead of chopping up subject matter, schools should aim at integrating subject matter. One way to accomplish this is to have students complete projects similar to what graduate students do in college.

Real learning takes place when a person uses their brain to SOLVE A PROBLEM THAT INTERESTS THEM. The actions involve research, cogitation, imagination, experimentation, and oftentimes manual activity. Alternating three two-hour classes each day allows for more intensive teaching to take place. Having students do some of their classwork in school where they can get assistance from the teachers (or from another student) makes good pedagogical sense.

One important lesson I learned while teaching was that test taking often does not indicate that any learning took place. Once a test is taken, you can bet that whatever "knowledge" gained to pass the test will be quickly forgotten. Privatizing the schools will not change that one bit. Test grades as a way to measure learning is a total fraud. The tests and grades can be manipulated. They prove nothing.

Some books worth reading are "How Children Fail" and "How Children Learn" by John Holt.

A few short excerpts from reviews of Holt's books can explain better where I am coming from.

(snip)
***************
John Holt summarizes perfectly the problem with contemporary education: it emphasizes right answers rather than learning, production rather than thinking. Read this book to understand this problem and its results, as seen through his experience as a collaborative teacher and thoughtful observer. The rewards for "right answers" over thinking even persists at higher education levels. "What would happen at Harvard or Yale if a prof gave a surprise test in March on work covered in October? Everyone knows what would happen; that's why they don't do it." (p. 232)
***************

(snip)
***************
Holt blames the current system, pointing out that if a system consistently fails, the problem is with it, not its inputs or participants. In the summary section, he forcefully points out the negative effects of the current system - low self-esteem, ignorance about how to learn, and a mind trained not to want to do so.
***************

The education privatizers want merely to provide students with the same failed policies that they criticize now. The public schools could be reorganized along the lines that I have mentioned here. Curriculums could be redesigned and teachers should be encouraged to have input to what is produced.

I can attest to the fact that colleges of education merely prepare teachers to fit into the existing broken system, and they don't even do a good job of that.

Privatizing the schools will change nothing as far as improving education. In fact, they will merely mire the existing failures in concrete.

[Tansy_Gold]

252. BRAVO! BRAVISSIMO!!!!! n/t

[Tansy_Gold]

237. Understand first of all that they are not necessarily "non-profits"

Check out the history of some of the failed and/or failing charter school companies. Like Imagine, which gets control of a school property, sells it to the parent FOR-PROFIT company and then leases it back.

These people want control -- control of the money, control of the property, control of the children. Think about that for a while, while you're still capable of independent, educated thought.



TG

[420inTN]

240. So, how do we fix the failing schools?

If privatization isn't the answer, what is the answer?

[Tansy_Gold]

241. Do you want a simple answer, a quick-fix, something that makes you

feel instantly better about a complex problem that took years, decades, to develop?

What you want doesn't exist, and I'm not going to offer you a worthless feel-good lie. I'll leave that to Eli Broad and Arne Duncan and Bill Gates and whichever other greedy asshole wants to get his hands on the taxpayers' money under the promise of "fixing" the public schools.

We don't just have failing schools. First of all, we don't even know that they're failing. Oh, sure, some of them are severely troubled. Yes, some of them have high drop-out rates, and lots of violence in the school and crappy teachers, and all the other shit the rightwing tells us is wrong with the schools. But where's the evidence? Where are the real numbers? And what are they based on? And who are they coming from?

For crying out loud, however bad the Detroit Public Schools may be, their Emergency Financial Officer Robert Bobb is getting a $150,000 personal "grant" from Eli Broad. Do you think he's not going to be fixing the books in favor of this privatization scheme? He's a graduate of Broad's leadership program. Whose side do you think he's going to take in this battle? Whose truth do you think he'll believe?

We have a failing economy, a failing health-care delivery system, a failing physical infrastructure, a failing just about everything. We've got a government in gridlock. But for some reason people think turning over the public schools to "businessmen" will fix everything?

There is no simple solution. We can start by fixing the failing economy. That's going to hurt the uber rich like Broad and Gates and Soros and Buffet, and frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. It should hurt them. They've hurt the rest of us long enough.


Tansy Gold

[AdHocSolver]

248. I answered 420InTN's "challenge" in post 247.

The education privatizers will merely continue the existing failed model of education. Their reliance on a form of testing that can be easily manipulated and proves nothing about what learning, if any, took place is proof enough that they have no useful plan to improve education. Improved test scores can and will be faked.

To summarize, learning takes place when a person uses her brain to solve a problem that interests her. Teaching should be interdisciplinary, not arbitrarily compartmentalized. Class periods should be longer to allow students to become immersed in whatever they are studying. Most schoolwork should be done in school where the students have access to educational resources such as a teacher while they are working on their projects.

Colleges of education are largely useless and are of marginal value. My best teachers had an in-depth knowledge of their subject and were enthusiastic about teaching it. The organization of the schools and curricula are mind-numbing to teachers as well as students. This needs to be changed.

What I would propose for a problematic school system is that the teachers attend a summer workshop in which the TEACHERS reorganize the school semester and redesign the curriculum to integrate their specialties and design projects as models for the students to get involved in. Students could work individually or collaboratively on projects of their choosing under the mentorship of the teachers. The new system could be implemented in stages during the year when school was in session, and the teachers could refine the system on an ongoing basis.

The teachers would have a stake in such an approach and the students would have a stake in it. Such a system would reduce the current adversarial relationship between the students and the school.

[AdHocSolver]

215. There is one characteristic charter school advocates and privatizers have in common.

When it comes to education, they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

I was educated in a big city public school system many years ago. Several years later, I taught in the same public school system. The demographics had changed, but the school system itself, curriculum, textbooks, and even a large percentage of personnel, was not a whole lot different.

Whereas the school system during the time I attended was considered topnotch, by the time I was teaching there, it was considered to have significantly declined in quality.

The change in quality was measured by the fact that, when I was a student, many of us graduates went on to college (including me). A significantly larger majority of the younger generation never went to college.

Two important considerations of that measure were not accounted for. One was the fact that the cost of college had gone up significantly from when I and my fellow graduates attended (although not the outrageous amounts that college costs today), and two, the jobs and pay for working families had already started to decline, even those many years ago, so that college was no longer affordable for many families.

Another important consideration that I can attest to is that the actual learning that took place in my generation was not that much better than when I taught in the same school system. The difference was that my generation was pushed to do well in school (that is, get good grades) so we played the game, and gamed the system. For many of us, our "real" education took place in college.

Privatizing the system will waste a lot of money, but worse, it will promote a mindset that will blame the next generation, rather than the school system, for their not becoming "educated". Test scores may go up, but test scores do not indicate that any real learning has occurred.

Essentially, these billionaires are blaming teachers for an educational system that they have no control over, and which has been largely ineffective for many decades. Most of the teachers are products of the same system that they are blamed for making "bad". School systems are extremely authoritarian, and I can attest from personal experience, teachers have little say in what or how they teach.

Education has become a political football which all kinds of crazies influence. Corporations, the "private" sector, already has had a considerable deleterious effect on education. Putting an even more authoritarian regime with its own agenda and no public accountability in charge of education is a step back into the Dark Ages. No good can come of it.

[HillbillyBob]

11. Their homesite.

http://buildingexcellentschools.org/

I am not a parent nor an educator..

[Tansy_Gold]

17. They are a charter school organization

I haven't seen one yet that actually works, that does what it's supposed to do, that doesn't suck the money out of the taxpayers and funnel it directly into the pockets of the already obscenely wealthy.

What does BES think they can do better than the public school system and on 3/4 the per-student budget? If they're so wonderful, if their ideas are so status-quo-shattering, why not just give the ideas to the DPS and let them implement these wonderful ideas with full funding?

WAKE UP, PEOPLE! It's not going to happen. You're falling for the propaganda again!

"We can do it better for less and turn a profit, too!" Sound too good to be true? You betcha!



Tansy Gold, brewing the coffee a little stronger this time so some of you can smell it!

[juajen]

157. Yeah, sorta like the privatized prison system; and, also like our last

President who had an MBA and thought the government had to be run like a business? Let me see, did that work? I guess it worked for the people whose pockets were lined with our dough.

[metapunditedgy]

12. I grew up in Detroit but went to private schools. My friends in public schools

told about how the teachers frankly didn't care about their education. This was years ago, and it sounds like little has changed.

Not trying to place any blame... there's too much to go around, anyway. But any attempt to defend Detroit public schools is going to be very difficult, just the way it is.

It's been this way at least for decades.

[madfloridian]

15. Maybe because they have taken money and resources from public schools....

and given them to charters and private schools.

You are denigrating a whole group of professionals, taking up right wing talking points.

[vadawg]

16. but if the public schools are not working then why keep funding them

look at DC most per pupil in the country yet failing and crap schools, how much money should the schools get and still be allowed to fail before we start to look at other ways... not sure what group of professional you are talking about as there are teachers both in private and public education, some good some bad...

[Tansy_Gold]

21. With the exception of elite private schools. . . .

many private and charter schools pay their teachers LESS than public schools do. What kind of teachers do you think a charter school is going to get if they pay less than public schools and don't have unions either? You think they're gonna get top-notch, well-educated, highly-qualified and highly-motivated teachers?

Do you think these uber-capitalists are diving into the Detroit public school system out of love for the kids of Detroit? If you believe that, then maybe you'd be interested in the beach-front property I've got for sale in Miami. . . .Miami, Arizona, that is.

When have rightwingers EVER cared about quality education for all, and especially for the poor? Given their record on public education, why would you believe them when they say they're only trying to help the kids?

THEY ARE LYING THROUGH THEIR TEETH.


Tansy Gold

[vadawg]

25. and yet the public schools with the top notch, well educated, highly motivated teachers are failing

the kids for whatever reason, can you deny that the system is not working in many areas, so why not try something different in those areas, let the parents decide what they want to do, hell if my kids are in a system thats not working then i sure as hell am going to move them, it seems that for some people its more important to protect their little kingdoms than what is best for the kids, so once again why not have other options, other alternatives or do you truly believe that the detroit public school model is the best those kids can ever get...

[Tansy_Gold]

127. No, I don't think DPS is The Model for successful public education

and you're trying to pull the discussion on a different tack.

The core point is this: Instead of looking for and/or at the actual causes of the failures in public education -- and let's take Detroit and DC as examples -- $omeone with lot$ of $tuff comes along with A New Idea and trumpets it as the solution. This $omeone says (usually) that a business model will change everything. In a culture (ours) that reveres financial/business success almost more than it reveres God Almighty (because it generally sees them as One and The Same), business success is the ONLY success that matters.

But in the case of public education, a business model has not worked. Too many charter schools are failing as bad as if not worse than the public schools they were supposed to "replace" or "provide competition for." And yes, I use a lot a quotes because these words don't really mean what they should mean.

Whether it's school vouchers or charter schools or home schooling or cyber charters -- none of these alternatives have succeeded sufficiently to offer a model for the major improvements needed in public education. I'm sure there are individual success stories, but I'm talking about a new model, a new paradigm in public education. So far, charter schools operated behind the scenes as for-profit ventures have not worked.

Anecdotal evidence -- Morningstar Academy in Apache Junction, Arizona. Look it up. http://arizona.typepad.com/blog/2008/12/weak-charter-school-laws-lax-enforcement-endangered-students-at-morningstar-academy.html Operated by a crook out of California who skimmed million$ from his 60 schools there, Morningstar eventually closed in 2008 after just too many scandals, including a principal who allowed her son to teach and failed to report him when he was molesting students.

As Safier says in the above linked blog, an anecdote is not proof of anything. His blog cites the newspaper reports, school board minutes, etc. My report here is the anecdote, of an acquaintance who had a 2-year associate's degree in Early Childhood Education, a degree usually acquired by day-care providers. My acquaintance, however, was hired by Morningstar Academy as a kindergarten, first grade, and junior high teacher. For the junior high students, she taught English.

I knew the woman socially. She freely admitted she knew nothing about grammar, couldn't spell worth a lick, and didn't have a clue about the "literature" the kids were supposed to read. In fact, she tried to recruit me to take over for her, because I actually had an advanced degree, could read and write grammatically correct English, and knew more than a little about literature.

But the school was affiliated -- tangentially and illegally -- with the church on whose property the school operated, and I wasn't interested in getting involved in that kind of mess. Especially not for approximately $10/hour. That's what she was paid, when she was even paid at all.

That's my anecdote, but the evidence of C. Steven Cox's financial scams regarding the rise and collapse of his 60 California charters and the evidence of Imagine schools' connections with their for-profit parent companies does not suggest to me that BES will be anything but a means to suck taxpayer dollars out of the Detroit system and put it into the hands of Bill Gates, Eli Broad, et alia.

What none of these ventures have done -- and I've watched some of them rise and collapse in the Phoenix metro area within the space of a single school year -- is examine the root causes of school failure. Does it have anything to do with the economic status of the school district? I don't recall DC and Detroit being famed for their overall high socioeconomic status. I think all of us here -- with a few ideological exceptions -- would agree that both Detroit and DC have for a long time been plagued with poverty and joblessness that are connected to racial divides. We do not have a color-blind society or a color-blind economy. No one wants to address that racism in terms of how it affects public education.

If a "new model" for public education doesn't address the causes, doesn't even look for them, then it's not going to succeed.

I went through the public schools in the Chicago suburb of Arlington Heights in the 50s and 60s. A solid working- and middle-class community, virtually all white, virtually all the kids I went to school with lived with their married parents, of which their father worked and their mother stayed home to take care of the house and kids. This model worked, but it only worked within the framework of a wider social and economic framework that supported it.

We no longer have that kind of social framework, not even in those working- and middle-class suburbs. And there were many communities where that social framework never existed. What we have now is a completely different socio-economic model, and its effects on the public education model have been developing over the past 30 to 40 years to the point that we now have "failing" school systems. It didn't happen overnight, and the solutions -- if we as a society even want to solve the problem -- are not going to come overnight either.

As long as this post has been, it hasn't covered one other major point in this whole discussion which is the very definition of "failing" schools. How is that measured? Who sets the criteria, and what ulterior motives do they have? Who determines whether a school is failing or not? Is it the school board? Is it qualified educators? Is it businessmen who want a piece of the financial action? Is it politicians with an agenda, either liberal or conservative or christofascist? Does it surprise anyone that "successful" schools tend to be located in wealthier school districts and "failing" schools tend to be in economically poorer districts? Race and socio-economic status are neither mutually inclusive nor mutually exclusive designations, but we are so afraid of discussing their interaction, so adamant that one is a matter of choice and the other doesn't exist, that we can't have a meaningful examination of how they operate within as enormous and important an institution as public education.

What we've got is a leaky boat, and people like Eli Broad and Arne Duncan think they can keep us from sinking by looking for ways to drain the ocean -- and make a profit off the sales of seawater.


The notion of "The current model doesn't work, so let's try something different, anything different, because we have to think of the kids" is bullshit. The "something different" that's being proposed has not only not worked, but it has done its "not working" to the detriment of all involved except the investors. THIS MODEL DOESN'T WORK. Let's find one that does.


Tansy Gold

[Catshrink]

131. Brillian post!

You nailed it, TG!

[Starry Messenger]

149. Tansy, this would be an excellent OP

:thumbsup: Consider reposting as its own thread if you have the time. You nailed it.

[Tansy_Gold]

150. Its. Its. Its. ;-)

I pointed out to another poster whose thread dealt with education issues that the possessive "its" has no apostrophe, so to be fair, I have to point it out to you, too, Starry Messenger. ;-).

His. Hers. Theirs. Yours. Its.



Tansy Gold, who probably should have been a teacher but lacks both the credentials and the self-confidence and is instead therefore running for president and maybe ought to take Starry Messenger's advice and post this as its own thread after she gets back from coffee and her fat-and-sugar-but-not-salt laden iced coffee.

[Starry Messenger]

152. I fixed it!

I hate that mistake too! I was going to blame it on lack of coffee. :D

[Demeter]

159. Hey Tansy--Everything You Say Is True, But Not Complete

Charter schools for profit started as scams to pick the pockets of suburbanites looking for "elite alternatives for the socially upwardly mobile"--and promptly crashed and burned. They couldn't deliver, period. And the money wasn't there.

So now they try the scam on the most depressed city in the country. It's gonna crash and burn even worse--because there is no tax base to pilfer, and the Feds aren't going to fund it, seeing as they wouldn't even fund real education when it was around.

Unless, and this is EXTREMELY unlikely, the venture is undertaken as pure charity. It's odds are slightly better, although the Catholic Church did that for decades, it never made a profit out of it, not even in keeping its rolls up.

Let David Bing take them for all he can get. They deserve it.

[Tansy_Gold]

187. Bing won't take them; they'll take him.

Public education is not a business, and trying to run it on a business model is a recipe for failure.

The propaganda has always laid the blame on the schools, never on the underlying social problems. Bing can no more fix that foundation than he can fly to the moon, and because he himself is a "businessman" rather than an educator, he is probably going to have a business-oriented point of view. Unfortunately, in public education, the bottom line is not the bottom line.

Bing isn't a big enough player -- all puns intended -- to make this venture succeed. The people who are taking over his city's schools are, for all their alleged philanthropic motives, profit oriented. They want control over the education system because they have an agenda of their own. I don't know what that agenda is, and though I can hazard a guess, I won't do so here. But you can bet your bottom dollar that they have one.

Detroit's glory was in manufacturing, and we all know that is the heart of any vibrant economy. Good jobs, good union jobs with good pay and benefits made Detroit a healthy city. The loss of those jobs set it on a downward spiral to urban death. Dave Bing can't change that, and Eli Broad doesn't want to. You wanna bet who's gonna win that match up?



Tansy Gold

[Demeter]

195. They Can't Force People To Send their Kids to Their Profit Centers

They can't force people to be taxed for it, either. Let them all beat themselves silly trying to. They won't profit, save in experience. Any dollars they drop in Detroit will be recycled into something much more useful.

And I do think Bing can take them. He is nobody's fool.

[Tansy_Gold]

208. They don't have to force anyone. The propaganda will have parents* fighting

to get their kids into the "new" and "better" schools.


*Or what pass for "parents" in these troubled times.


The People may be ignorant, but they aren't totally stupid. They know their schools are bad, and they want something better. I listen to people here in Arizona say the same thing Broad and Duncan and the others WANT them to say. "The schools are failing, it's the schools' fault, bring on the charters."

Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to hear a retired union shop steward tell his friends over coffee, "Yeah, Wisconsin's goin' to hell in a hand basket just like Michigan. We used to have lotsa good union jobs until the liberals took over and fucked everything up." This man isn't stupid, but he's ignorant, and his fears are allayed by the bullshit he hears. He's not able to process the bullshit and understand that it's a blatant lie.

Neither will the parents and step-parents and grandparents and aunts and uncles and cousins and foster parents and whoever else is raising the children of Detroit. They'll hear "Your schools are failing and we're here to save the day" and they'll believe it. Hell, wouldn't you believe it, if you were in their shoes?

Dave Bing is -- and you'll pardon the puns again, please -- either out of his league. . . or he's on the first string.



TG

[madfloridian]

192. Excellent post

"people like Eli Broad and Arne Duncan think they can keep us from sinking by looking for ways to drain the ocean -- and make a profit off the sales of seawater."

Yep. How true.

[ibegurpard]

206. most excellent post!

[Hannah Bell]

207. +100. especially this: but it only worked within the framework of a wider social and economic

framework which supported it.

[eppur_se_muova]

225. Agreeing that this deserves its own OP.

Especially re. the definition of what consitutes a "failing" school -- statistics don't lie, but liars present statistics in their own framing to deceive with great effect. Like so many RW/neocon tactics, this is just a variation on framing the debate -- define the terms before anyone else gets to, and make the derogatory labels stick, knowing most of the public won't ever check the facts.

Props for arguing the case so well. I'm kind of in awe of people who dissect BS so thoroughly. As a scientist, I seldom have to deal with that kind of argument, since Nature doesn't lie.

[PassingFair]

246. +1

I went to Detroit Public Schools from K-12.
I had wonderful, caring teachers throughout.

(With the exception of a couple of chauvinist
science teachers in high school...)

The consensus even THEN, was that our schools
were "failing".

Detroit and it's surrounding suburbs are NOT
intertwined in any way these days. The entire
school system has been ghetto-ized.

The system DOES need an overhaul. This needs to be done without
dismantling the public schools. Everyone deserves a
chance, and these charter schools can pick and choose
which students get to attend. That is unacceptable.

[tonysam]

143. Private school pay is typically WAY less than public.

I made only about half as much in a private school than I did as a public school teacher. I had to work a second job in order to survive.

[Tansy_Gold]

188. As I said ---

Pay may be higher in ELITE private schools, but most private and charter schools do pay less.

Many charter schools pay a whole lot less. And they get what they pay for: unqualified, uncertified warm bodies pretending to be teachers.



TG

[Catshrink]

130. Because they aren't addressing the underlying problems of poverty, etc.

If you think this doesn't play a majpr role in a child's ability to learn, you aren't living in reality.

[MattBaggins]

175. Love a self fufilling prophecy don't you.

[metapunditedgy]

45. I went to a church school (not Catholic, FWIW). The teachers got paid crap little, MUCH less

than the public school teachers did. The church gave priority and financial assistance to students from the neighborhood who did NOT belong to the church, and lots of neighborhood kids went there because it was safer and they got a better education. I consider all that a good thing.

I'm not talking up any RW talking points. I'm just stating reality... the Detroit public schools were in terrible shape long before I got there. (Are you a Detroiter? It's hard to imagine Detroit without experiencing it, FWIW.)

[Hannah Bell]

90. how old are you?

[metapunditedgy]

160. This was back in the 1980s, so about 30 years ago.

I'm forty-ish, give or take a decade that I don't want to think about. :-)

[Demeter]

144. You Really Know Nothing About Detroit, MF

I'm not in favor of privatizing education in the slightest. I think this is a great opportunity for the city to fleece the millionaire businessmen.

[madfloridian]

151. Good luck on that. You and the rest of Detroit.

That must be what you want....schools run by billionaires without accountability.

You got it.

[Demeter]

156. If I Thought The Millionaires Were Going to Accomplish ANY of Their Nefarious Schemes, I'd Be Worrie

but it ain't gonna happen.

It is a fool's errand they are set upon. As I keep saying, you don't know anything about Detroit.

It would be the equivalent of of setting up a private school in Beirut at the height of the wars, without having enough children to make a going concern.

There are no jobs, damn little infrastructure, and the population, which was pushing 2 million in my youth is dropping below 700,000. There is no money, either, not city, state or federal.

Whatever Bing has sold them on, it's either a scam, or pure charity.

Either they will be doing it as charity, or they will walk away. I'm guessing walk away, and before 5 years are up. If they start at all.

As for making a killing in real estate---who would want to live or work there?

You've heard of white flight? Modern Detroit is a result of everyone and everything flight.

Now, if the Mormons came in to build a shining new city--I'd be worried. It will take fanatics to bring anything out of Detroit, people who insist on living there and doing what they need done. Like the urban farmer movement:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3436406

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7799067

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x204185

[Hannah Bell]

233. "who would want to live or work there" = plenty of people, once the riff-raff is moved out.

the exact same people who live just across the city limits.

[rpannier]

235. But they're not doing it for charity

My understanding is that the Admin is divvying out 10 billion dollars for these schools.

My biggest complaints (of many) is "What is the procedure for oversight of these schools?" and "Who is responsible for auditing these schools?"

Because I keep hearing how this is supposed to be empowering parents. Yet, these schools are run by people in other states.
Not sure how that empowers anyone but the person/persons who own the company

[MattBaggins]

176. Yeah that accountability part is the problem isn't it

WE HAVE TO PRIVATIZE OUR SCHOOLS IN THE NAME OF ACCOUNTABILITY...

Really? How do we hold the private schools accountable?

chirp... chirp... chirp...

[Zoeisright]

24. Wow.

Overgeneralization, oversimplification, and repuke talking points all in one post.

[madfloridian]

32. heh heh

agreed.

[metapunditedgy]

47. In my post or yours?

I take it you're from Detroit yourself?

[madfloridian]

18. Amazing, Most on this thread approve of giving public schools to private companies.

Using that old Reagan excuse of how bad the teachers have been.

It is amazing to see how a post like this draws privatizers like flies to flypaper.

[vadawg]

20. no i think you miss the point, its not about privatizing, its about the kids

personally i dont care if a school is public, private, religious or whatever, i want it to give the best education possible to the kids, this is the point you seem to miss, its all about the kids, they should be the number one priority dont you agree... and if your honest you know the system is failing in a lot of places so we need to try other stuff even if that means allowing parents vouchers to senf their kids to private schools or allowing alternative schools, once again its all about the kids, everything else is secondary...

[w4rma]

22. How can schools that introduce middlemen, hire newbie teachers and cut corners to make extra money

be at all better than a public school system that is accountable to voters.

These privatized schools exist for one reason: TO MAKE MONEY. NOT to educate.

[omega minimo]

46. no you miss the point, it IS about privatizing, on a national level.

:evilfrown:

[WinkyDink]

98. Vouchers? Yeah, here, poor person, take this 25 bucks and go to Rich Academy.

[vadawg]

103. actually in DC it was $7500 and about 1700 students took advantage of it

more than enough to go to a private school in DC, mayby not the richest schools but still enough for most of the private schools..

[Hannah Bell]

108. and there was no significant improvement in results.

The Department of Education recently issued a three-year analysis of student achievement under the program that found limited gains in reading and no significant progress in math. But the White House concluded that moving the children back to public schools amounted to an unnecessary disruption.

Education Secretary Arne Duncan had told reporters that it didn't make sense "to take kids out of a school where they're happy and safe and satisfied and learning."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/06/AR2009050603852.html


No evidence of a statistically significant difference in test scores between students who were offered an OSP scholarship and students who were not offered a scholarship.
The program had a consistently positive impact on parent satisfaction and their perceptions of school safety.

Students who were offered OSP scholarships did not report being more satisfied with school or feeling safer in school than those without access to scholarships.

This same pattern of findings holds when the analysis is conducted to determine the impact of using a scholarship rather than being offered a scholarship, taking into account the approximately 20 percent of students who were offered but chose not to use their scholarships the first year.

http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/pubs/20074009/

[vadawg]

110. and yet the parents had a different perception of the results

the question is are you willing to give the parents the choice.

[Hannah Bell]

111. uh, no, they had a perception the private school was safer.

which may or may not have been the case, but if that's the problem, why not give public school teachers the power to get dangerous or disruptive students out of their classrooms & into alternative ed?

& how about some decent-paying jobs so we stop recreating the *real* problem every generation?

which is ghettoized, stressed communities with multigenerational unemployment.

[vadawg]

115. and mayby the perception they were safer was true, i would definetley say the private schools

in the DC area are safer than the public schools, do you ever think oyu could get rid of the disruptive students from public schools, it seems its a vicious circle you wont get better jobs without education and without the better jobs then you wont get the stability needed for better education, and i would go with what the parents perceived as they should get teh final say...

[MattBaggins]

182. So you agree that parents should have the final say

so you advocate that I should be able take my kid to the private prep school and demand they be educated if they take public money or do you actually feel that they should be able to take my money and still tell my kids to buzz off?

[MattBaggins]

179. Will you truly give all the parents a choice?

Can a parent walk up to that private school a few blocks over with that voucher in hand and demand a desk for their child?

Or do you just support a half assed band aid solution for the upper middle class to get away from the riff raff and then declare it a smashing success?

[Tansy_Gold]

210. Not all. Only 1700 or so.

:sarcasm: just in case.


TG

[MattBaggins]

178. Will they be open to all?

Can I take my voucher to the school I want and demand a seat for my child or will I be told that my kind needs to consider a different school?

[BeatleBoot]

23. Pssst...

do some homework on the corruption that has gone on in the DPS.

If you live here, then you know that the entire system is way out of control.

Like off the charts out of control.

[w4rma]

26. And with this event, even more corrupt and disruptive. Good luck trying to get a billionare to

listen to what you want from your school. These people that are doing this think they are little monarchs who know better than the rest of us. They do not care what the parents want, except as far as it forces them to give their kids' education (and more importantly, their money) to them.

[madfloridian]

27. So you agree with turning schools over to private companies?

And not regulating them?

Of course, there has NEVER been any corruption in private companies. :sarcasm:

[BeatleBoot]

34. Nope not at all.

People are leaving in droves to exit the city because the city (let alone the DPS) is dysfunctional.

The social fabric that holds a school district together is absent.

Choose another city's public school system as your talking point. Just make sure it's viable, first.

This one is done.

[madfloridian]

37. I will choose any city that is being screwed over to talk about.

Thank you.

More to come.

Stand up for public education now or it will be too late.

[BeatleBoot]

40. I am totally 100% Pro-Public Education - let me be crystal clear.

I'm just against corruption of any sort - including folks caught on tape mis-using and in some instances even stealing taxpayer's money.

And I hope you would be against that, too.

Detroit Public schools was just a really bad example for you to make your point.

Democrats are fed up with it here.

That's all that my point was.

[Hannah Bell]

44. funny how the corruption was allowed to continue so long, eh?

what's up with that?

[omega minimo]

51. as in other communities, where the corrupt school boards are FOSTERING AND ENABLING

the charter/privatization school killers. They use similar tactics/language/slogans.

[BeatleBoot]

57. I agree that is terrible. fostering and enabling privatization is bad

Using DPS as an example for the argument is not a good idea because Michigan Democrats have had enough.

[madfloridian]

59. It's a perfect example. Who allowed them to get so bad? Planned deterioration?

You betcha.

[omega minimo]

60. again allowing failure of government social structures to "prove" government doesn't work

[madfloridian]

61. and pushing the failure by defunding.

Yep.

[omega minimo]

76. and using race in a very cynical way/s to acheive the uberwealthy goals of the top down officials

:thumbsdown:

[Hannah Bell]

94. +100

[BeatleBoot]

64. Population has fled

1.2 million in 1980

About 800,000 today.

I have no idea why.

[Hannah Bell]

87. 70% of detroit metro area blacks live in detroit proper. the surrounding suburbs =

about 3 million, mostly white.

no idea why.

detroit metro area = 9th most populous in the country.

Detroit has major port status<19> and an extensive toll-free expressway system. <20><21> A 2004 Border Transportation Partnership study showed that 150,000 jobs in the Detroit-Windsor region and $13 billion in annual production depend on Detroit's international border crossing. <22> A source of top talent, the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor is one of the world's leading research institutions,<23> and Wayne State University in Detroit has the largest single-campus medical school in the United States.<24>

In 2004, led by Metro Detroit, Michigan ranked second nationally in new corporate facilities and expansions. From 1997 to 2004, Michigan was the only state to top the 10,000 mark for the number of major new developments. <25> Metro Detroit is a leading corporate location with major office complexes such as the Renaissance Center, the Southfield Town Center, and Cadillac Place with the Fisher Building in the historic New Center area. Both BorgWarner and TRW Automotive Holdings chose Metro Detroit for their new headquarters. Quicken Loans, National City Bank, Ernst & Young, GMAC, Visteon, and OnStar are sources of growth.

Compuware, IBM, Google, and Covansys are examples information technology and software companies with a headquarters or major presence in Metro Detroit. Electronic Data Systems (EDS) makes Metro Detroit its regional headquarters, and one of its largest global employment locations. The metropolitan Detroit area has one of the nation's largest office markets with 147,082,003 square feet.<26> Virtually every major U.S company and many from around the globe have a presence in Metro Detroit. Chrysler's largest corporate facility is its U.S. headquarters and technology center in the Detroit suburb of Auburn Hills. Downtown Detroit reported $1.3 billion in restorations and new developments for 2006. <27>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Detroit

[BeatleBoot]

199. Yeah, it' a hustling and bustling Metropolis

"EDS" doesn't exist anymore by the way. How old is your "Wiki"?

By all means, send your kids to school here. Enjoy!

[Hannah Bell]

200. no, as of 2008 it's hp enterprise services. also in the detroit metro area.

http://h10134.www1.hp.com/contacts/

http://www.linkedin.com/companies/hp-enterprise-services_157234

EDS, now known as HP Enterprise Services, founded the information technology outsourcing industry in 1962. We are now a business unit of HP, and we are leading the world in global technology services delivering business solutions to our clients. Our business unit is built on a heritage of delivery excellence, industry knowledge, a world-class technical infrastructure...

Top Locations

Dallas/Fort Worth Area (500+)
Greater Detroit Area (500+)
Washington D.C. Metro Area (419)

Detroit
M/S 20-A
500 Renaissance Center
Detroit, MI 48243
USA
phone: [phone]
fax: [phone]



On May 13, 2008, Hewlett-Packard Co. confirmed that it had reached a deal with Electronic Data Systems to acquire the company for $13.9 Billion.<1> The deal was completed on August 26, 2008. EDS became an HP business unit and was renamed EDS, an HP company. Ronald A. Rittenmeyer remained at the helm, reporting to Ann Livermore until his retirement.

As of 23 September 2009, EDS began going to market as HP Enterprise Services, a name change which came one year after HP announced the acquisition of EDS and was a critical milestone as the integration of EDS into HP neared completion. <2>

As of 2008, EDS employed 139,000 employees in 64 countries, the largest locations being the USA, India and the UK. It was ranked as one of the largest service companies on the Fortune 500 list with around 2,000 clients.

http://www.indeed.com/q-Bcs-Sales-Specialist-HP-Enterprise-Services-Alliance-l-Detroit,-MI-jobs.html

http://www.detroitjobnetwork.com/jobs.asp?pagemode=11&cid=4F64BA67E1B7FF4B9B5399A6A8DB063B

http://jobs.accountingcoach.com/a/jobs/find-jobs/q-HP/l-detroit%2C+MI

[BeatleBoot]

226. So do you live here or do you just google here?

Because I live here.

Since 1964.


Tell me something else that you don't know about my hometown.

[Gaedel]

249. 1.85 million in 1950

And the school system was one of the best in the nation at that time. People in the suburbs paid tuition to send their kids to high school in Detroit.

[Hannah Bell]

81. yes. slow-motion disaster capitalism. deliberate disinvestment.

deliberate fostering of a corrupt political culture.

redlining, block-busting, arson.

"planned shrinkage"

[Catshrink]

135. Kind of like New Orleans but without Katrina.

[Hannah Bell]

80. if they had enough, why didn't they get rid of the corrupt personnel?

long ago?

let's be honest here. "michigan democrats" *were* some of the corrupt personnel, the corrupt pols, & other "michigan democrats" enabled them. and there was a reason for that.

& now that a bunch of corrupt corporate foundations come in to take over, you say "michigan democrats had enough".

the same corrupt pols are pulling the same strings for privatization.

[420inTN]

193. Is the DPS School Board elected or appointed? n/t

[Hannah Bell]

219. currently elected, previously appointed (board was put under mayoral

control in 1999 -- for the same reasons -- graduation rates, etc.). went back to elected board in 2005 -- for the same reasons.

i.e. pols & administrators jerking everyone around; changing jurisdictions & repeated ineffectual "reform" regimes = no stability, nothing gets accomplished.

this is more of the same. gates & co will cream the remaining good students & non-disabled students (& their funding) & throw the rest to the public schools.

[metapunditedgy]

52. That's a straw man. I see lots of people stating the facts, that Detroit

schools are in bad shape. Can you tell the difference between that and saying "I want privatization of education"?

I assume you've spent a lot of time in Detroit and know what you're talking about? Send your kids to Detroit public schools?

[madfloridian]

63. Another privatization supporter. Have it your way.

Get back to me in a few years about how much love these private foundations show the kids.

:eyes:

[metapunditedgy]

65. Another straw man. Whatever.

You know I never said anything supporting privatization. Get back to me in a few years about how wonderful that alternate reality is where we all pretend nothing needs to be fixed...

Edit: in the meantime, spend a few years in Detroit, if you haven't already. It's very educational.

[BeatleBoot]

66. No he is straight up when he calls it a "Straw Man"

Because that's what it is

[Hannah Bell]

88. um: when you support privatization, you're a "privatization supporter".

you can rationalize all you want -- "oh, but in this case there's *good reason* to support privatization & union busting" -- but poster (& yourself) still = PRIVATIZATION SUPPORTERS.

[metapunditedgy]

164. Are you saying that criticizing the status quo is always a vote for privatization?

I haven't said a thing about privatization, and I don't like the idea, personally. But (in my past experience) something's definitely gotta be fixed.

My guess is that privatization -- like so many other initiatives -- would arrive with great fanfare and in the long run -- like so many other initiatives -- leave people worse off than before.

[omega minimo]

213. You're right. You're just not recognizing the "great fanfare" for what it is.

These mass actions at the meta level, sweeping regional actions against dozens or hundreds of schools all at once in regions all over the country, are a big red flag. Shock and awe, disaster capitalism, gentrification of public schools to make way for the privatizers with their axes and slogans and no regard for who or what came before, no concern for the community, wiping the slate clean to impose their agenda and stake their claim for the public funds and private backing of the uberrich like Bill Gates pushing this through.

Coming to a neighborhood near you.

[Hannah Bell]

218. no, i'm not saying that. but nice straw. i'm saying SUPPORTING A PRIVATIZATION INITIATIVE,

NO MATTER HOW YOU JUSTIFY IT, = A VOTE FOR PRIVATIZATION.

[omega minimo]

214. The straw man put up by your buddy and others is the pretense that the objection is to helping kids

on the ground. It's not. It's too absurd to be answered. It's a gosh gee whiz phony game being played by a couple here, maybe more, in order to distract from the subject which is HOW it's being done and WHO is doing it.

[Hannah Bell]

28. wait, wait -- Educated, caring DU-ers told me those schools *had* to be closed --

there was *no money*!!!! Detroit couldn't maintain its vast infrastructure -- *too spread out*!!!!


Surely this can't be true!!??? It must be that these "investors" won't be taking public funding, right? RIGHT?

Because the Detroit system's *entire* budget for 2008 was $4.5 million.

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:9OfHr6o31sAJ:showcase.detroit.k12.mi.us/data/finance/FY%25202007-2008%2520ADOPTED%2520BUDGET-1.pdf+DETROIT+PUBLIC+SCHOOLS+BUDGET&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[Gaedel]

212. Detroit Public School Budget

The Detroit Public Schools budget for the 2008-2009 school year was just over $1.2 billion
They spent just over $1.3 billion.

They had a deficit of $111 million.

Robert Bobb is pretty sure they are heading for a $150 million deficit in the 2009-2010 school year.


https://secure.detroitk12.org/data/finance/docs/2008.08.06_FY_2009_Adopted_Budget.pdf

[jsmithsen]

33. Hot Money

How much of this money is "show money" for political purposes? How do we know whether they will continue to spend once people stop looking?

[ibegurpard]

38. Who sets the curriculum in a charter school?

How are they held accountable to the public?
Why should we syphon tax dollars to support private organizations with no public accountability...oh silly me, I forgot that's exactly what's happening with "healthcare reform."
Corporations LOVE the idea of being able to train nice, unquestioning little math whizzes with no critical thinking skills to be obedient drones who won't stir the pot...best thing is they're convincing the public to pony up for it.

[vadawg]

41. hell it would be a result if they can get the kids to be able to count

the standard at the moment is pretty bad so anything would be an improvement...

[ibegurpard]

50. horseshit

public schools are OUTSTANDING in many, many places
the fact that they are failing in places with many, many social problems and no tax base is not an indictment of the concept of a public school system.
Go peddle your privatization schemes somewhere else...the wreckage from all the other privatization schemes of the past thirty years is all around us and we're not buying it any more.

[vadawg]

55. and yet there are some excellent private schools as well as excellent public schools

[ibegurpard]

56. yes, there are

and they are privately funded and that's just fine with me
You want to send your kids to private school? pony up for it.
Hands off public education.

[vadawg]

68. then you wont mind if im having to pay for private school if i vote to lower my taxes

see it works both ways, this is why people move out of these areas, and what do you suggest we do when public schools fail... personally im for parents having the choices to make the best decisions for their kids and not having either you or a private company making that decision for them..

[Hannah Bell]

72. & you won't mind the same regarding the military & your own publicly funded salary, i'm sure.

in fact, i think we should all get to choose which public expenditures we'll fund.

open them all up for a vote if you want to go this route.

[vadawg]

77. you already can, you can vote to defund the popo, or the military

tell me why are you so against parents being able to make decisions for their kids, it kinda scares me that you are more concerned for your belief than what might work better for the kids, and their parents. Now you can believe that total public schools work better and mayby they do but you can still recognise that if we find private works better then that should be the way to go...

[Hannah Bell]

78. where is this that i can vote to defund the police & military?

parents can already make decisions for their kids. if you like private, nothing's stopping you from sending yours to private schools.

[vadawg]

79. you do realise that you get to vote on the popo all the time

every time you vote a mayor, or supervisor, or sheriff, and as to the military theres plenty of politicians out there who want to defund the military, but you still have not answered the most important question, whats more important the kids and their parents or the public education system, if you had to choose one of them which one.... as to sending mine to private yeas there is nothing stopping me as i can afford it, but theres a lot of people who cant who would like to get their kids out of failing public schools, what about them or do we not give them the choice..

[Hannah Bell]

83. i have no idea what you mean by "popo" & i've never heard any local pol campaign on a platform of

reducing police services in my entire life.

[vadawg]

86. the popo is the police, and there is nothing to stop you from campaigning to defund the popo

though your neighbours may not vote with you, but you didnt answer my question, if a public school is failing its kids, should only the people with money be able to move their kids or should any parent be able to move their kids to another school even if its private... whats more important the system or the kids...

[Hannah Bell]

93. "there is nothing to stop me from campaigning to defund the police" -- oh, wait,

you said i could vote to defund them anytime. now i have to initiate a city, state & federal campaign to do so? (since local police get funding from all three sources).

but police protect the propertied, & imprison the propertyless. my, that's a tough sell.

if a public school is failing kids, parents have more options than you recommend to me re the police. unfortunately, the failing ones -- surprise, surprise -- also serve the poor.

poor schools are "poor" by design, & it has nothing to do with the teachers. nor will privatization make them better.

[vadawg]

95. ah so what you really care about are the poor schools, nothing wrong with that

another question should we be looking to educate children to the best of their ability or to just a standard, poor schools as youput it are due to the fact they are in poorer neighbourhoods, it dosent mean that they are always bad but should those poor parents have options if they want ie vouchers to send their kids to the same schools that i would send my kids to if i lived in that neighbourhood.

[Hannah Bell]

101. there are no "options" for the poor as a class. their vouchers ain't going to cover the cost

of your kids' school.

cause if they did, your kids wouldn't be in that school.

[vadawg]

102. so what if it covers say 50% of the cost, and the parent is willing to pony up the rest

would you be willing to give the parent that choice, if a parent is willing to sacrifice to get their kid into a better school then we should be helping that kid and their parent.. So you think the poor should always just be in the failing public schools regardless, without there being other options for them..

[Hannah Bell]

106. lol. the last person that talked about how poor kids should have the chance to

go to a school like their own child's linked me to a private kindergarten with tuition of $25K.

yeah, i'm sure the voters will fund vouchers for $12.5K for the ghetto kids, & i'm sure the families will *somehow* come up with the other $12.5K.

The way the privatizers will reduce costs is: bust unions & reduce teachers' pay. That's the low-hanging fruit. So that's what you'll get: walmartized teachers led by brown-nosing $100K "master" teachers & shitty materials developed by jeb bush. It will cost a little less than ed does now, & most of it will be worse & more corrupt.

And the corps, when they go bankrupt, will get taxpayer bailouts, cause education is "too big to fail."

The poor will get prison schools, the shrinking middle class will bankrupt themselves to get into the "good" schools, & the rich will laugh all the way to the bank.

[vadawg]

107. actually in DC it was $7500 and about 1700 students took advantage of it

go look the figures up yourself, and they easily found schools with lower tuition, and the parents were upset when the scheme ended, heres a real simple question again for you that i will answer as well, whats the most important things in education for you, for me number 1 is the kids and their parents, i get the impression you care more about what you see as the system than the results it gets for the kids, if it meant that every kid got a top class education and the best start by using nothing but the internet and one online teacher then i would happily get rid of every building and employee of the education system, afterall the whole point of education is the students isnt it..

[Hannah Bell]

112. the vouchers were *up to* $7.5 k, & that will buy you into *some* DC catholic schools.

period.


oh, & from the horse's mouth, the reasons catholic schools are cheaper & scores are (slightly) higher are:

1. cheap teachers & "free" nuns
2. larger classes
3. "extraordinary" authority delegated to schools/less red tape
4. cherry-picking: "Like it or not, the Catholic schools can say to parents: "we simply do not have the facilities that your child needs (or deserves), and we strongly recommend that you avail yourselves of the public school system". With this simple, straightforward approach, a large fraction of public school problems can be avoided. Both special ed kids, and those with other disruptive proclivities not mitigated by discipline, can be sent packing. Since a good 25% of all DC Public School spending is for special ed, the cost differential is large."


give me the authority to remove all special ed, disruptive & dangerous students & i'll show you better graduation rates & increased test scores, too. not to mention the fact that parents motivated enough to make the special arrangements for transportation, etc. are more involved parents.

http://www.narpac.org/PER.HTM

[vadawg]

116. seems like a good system then, even if the results are only slightly better

its better than the public schools then its better than the public schools, anything that gets better results should be tried as the public schools are not working...

[Catshrink]

138. If private and charter schools were required to accept all comers...

meaning special ed students, the disrupters, etc., then we'd have a level playing field to make comparisons. As it is, public schools are required to take all students while private schools and charter schools can cherry pick. If you disaggregated the data, you most likely wouldn't see that privates are better.

I'm convinced that you have never been "inside" education and have no idea how it works. There's a reason teachers are concerned about this movement -- and it isn't only about our livelihoods. Armchair teachers are a dime a dozen here on DU and in Obama's administrtion.

[tonysam]

145. The idea private schools are better because parents pay extra is just bullshit

They aren't. They can frontload their student body by picking and choosing who they want. Public schools have to take on ALL comers.

When I taught private school, most of the kids were either "gifted" or borderline gifted. Naturally their standardized test scores were way, way, way above the average. It had nothing to do with superior curriculum or teachers or even the parents. It had to do with the ability of the kids to do the work and even exceed the standards.

It's time people quit peddling privatizing bullshit on a DEMOCRATIC, liberal board.

[Catshrink]

148. Amen, tonysam!

As usual, you are right on!

[Hardrada]

70. For you guys we need some good reeducation camps!

Counter-revolutionary White Guardist running dogs!

[Hardrada]

71. Dupe.

[Mithreal]

186. Pattern of disruption.

[Hannah Bell]

39. they won't. detroit district budget = $4.5 million. these "investors" putting up $200 million.

now, what are they getting?

hmmm....centrally located properties in detroit, for starters.

you know, the detroit that DU-ers say must be "downsized".

[BeatleBoot]

58. Yeah, that's some hot property here in Detroit, too.

Top dollar!

:rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

62. it will be, don't you worry. i've done a bit of research on the topic.

the pattern isn't a new one.

[metapunditedgy]

82. $200M could buy a LOT in Detroit. Why bother with schools

when there are vacant properties all over the place?

[Hannah Bell]

84. it achieves two goals with one stone. & inner-city schools are typically

large properties in central locations.

[metapunditedgy]

85. There are *tons* of large properties in central locations.

I guess I just don't understand the scenario. (It's not that I disagree with you; I'm sure the privateers are looking to profit in more ways than one. I just don't understand the plan here.)

[Hannah Bell]

96. 1) to privatize ed. 2) to acquire real estate for future speculative purposes.

check out who owns some of those large properties in detroit city sometime.

http://www.britannica.com/bps/additionalcontent/18/28864634/Outside-investors-hot-on-Detroit-commercial-real-estate

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=7158004&page=1

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2010/03/la_investor_aims_to_put_famili.html


Here's one of the many stories of how detroit went down: The Lafayette building

?1264144749

Oakland County investor Howard Schwartz bought the property around 1999 and left it to rot.

In May 2004, the city’s Downtown Development Authority paid $350,000 to buy out Schwartz’s interest and free it for redevelopment. George Jackson Jr., the president of the Detroit Economic Growth Corp., told the Detroit News at the time that it was easier to buy out Schwartz than attempt to gain clear title through the courts, saying it could take two years.


http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:SDBeVO5sg_AJ:www.buildingsofdetroit.com/places/lafayette+absentee+ownership+detroit&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


The "investor" left it to rot. Then the city bought the rotten building back, & paid to demolish it. Nice scam for all parties concerned. And there's a lot of it. Planned disinvestment on the public dime.



rule of thumb: buy low, sell high. course it helps when you're the one manipulating the economy & people's lives & livelihood, & get to use public funds to do it.

[metapunditedgy]

162. I believe the privateers would try to milk as much money as possible out of the public coffers.

(Which is sad, because that money is especially needed in Detroit.) I just don't think property is the main focus of their plans. (There's plenty of other ways to buy Detroit property.)

[Gaedel]

250. Not in Detroit

The Detroit schools are scattered through the city. The big downtown schools are long since gone.

[nonconformist]

243. LOL! Again, you don't know anything about Detroit. The budget is 1.2 BILLION. nt

[Trillo]

43. I think the entire education schtick is a massive Triangulation.

The public schools are going down (somewhat sad), so it's the charter schools' fault, but public schools rarely admit their own flaws, such as the problem with student-on-student bullying.

The charter schools are under attack, they say, we have a dream, and their dream reportedly includes allegations of child sexual contact.

The private school don't seem to be accountable to anyone except those who pay them, and the love to expel for Teh Gay and of course non-payment.

And to escape all this, some parents want to homeschool. Curiously, the desire to homeschool seems to some degree to power the charter movement.

All of the above is a result of "compulsory education", the forcing of specific programming content, usually abstracted, and never of marketable value without yet more education, into your brain. Each of all the groups above benefit by the existence of the other portions of the group, so it's all just a great big circle jerk. Fixing the problem requires eliminating "compulsion". It doesn't seem it will be fixed soon.

So, it appears we will eliminate free public schools for paid charter schools. As with all things that at first start as free or with coupons and or incentives, one day they will simply be "paid", and there will still be that "compulsory" issue. Oh where, oh where did all the free schools go?

[Hannah Bell]

48. exactly. remember free tv? funny how quickly it became paid tv -- still with commercials, no less.

[JCMach1]

67. Permanent privatization is the goal eventually at the taxpayer's expense

with the Blackwater's of the education industry. Except in wealthy suburban areas of course... but even there students will be given vouchers for private schools at the taxpayer's expense.

[Hannah Bell]

69. yep. they're privatizing everything. you'll pay taxes, & the job of gov't will be

to pass them through to "approved" crony businesses, i.e. the corporate elite.

i.e. fascism is the goal.

[tango-tee]

121. Correct, Hannah Bell!

And it starts with union busting when schools are privatized. The education and welfare of the children are not the ultimate goal, and anyone who believes that - well, have beach front property and bridges for sale, etc. As you stated, what is aimed for is fascism.

You are a champion of us "little" people, HB! Thank you for all the work you are putting into your research, and for the passion you bring to your posts. This comes from a third-generation union member who is deeply worried.

[tonysam]

146. It's all about ideology. Public schools must be dismantled not because they are bad

but because they are PUBLIC.

This is nothing more than an assault on democracy itself. Anybody who is in favor of this is against democracy. Period. It's that basic.

[Tansy_Gold]

153. Absolutely. n/t

[democracy1st]

73. K & R

[notesdev]

89. Given the performance of the present system

It's really hard to make a good argument why the students and city are not better served taking the chance. Having the system be public is not more important than having it educate kids.

[Hannah Bell]

91. um -- because it's a privatization of education? because the largest study

of charter schools showed 17% performed better, 37% performed worse, & the rest were at par?

because the privatization experiment in chicago actually proved *worse* for the poor & minorities?

hard to explain why these caring billionaires don't put the $200 million into the public system, since it's 4444% of the detroit system's entire budget.

oh, wait, it's not. they want to *own* the system. & once they've got it & the demo period is over, you can bet they won't be spending 200 million.

& i'll bet large chunks of that 200 mil will be siphoned off for outside 'consultants,' materials prep corps, etc.

[notesdev]

120. They have all those problems now

The system, as is, is not educating kids. That in and of itself demands a change.

When the system cannot reform itself (and it clearly cannot) then it must be removed and a new system put into place.

The way to stop something like this from happening is to take that fire in the belly and apply it to the public school systems that aren't doing the job they exist to do, to make sure things never get so far out of control that a complete change is viewed as a necessity. In this case, that ship is sailed; as you can see, every person here who is actually from Detroit views this change as a no-brainer.

So if you want to stop the next system from being privatized, hold failing public systems accountable before they get to the point where they are in Detroit.

[notesdev]

123. The specific case is the concern

Perhaps those numbers are true and correct for the general case, but it makes no difference here. The Detroit public school system is an unmitigated failure - it's so ridiculous, the head of the system isn't even fully literate.

The people of Detroit want a change; they want a decent education for their children. Unless you have a better idea as to how they can get that done, stand aside and let them do what they feel is best for their own community.

[madfloridian]

125. "Stand aside" you say?

There are many better ideas, like stop dismantling public education and giving taxpayer money to charter and private schools.

[notesdev]

128. So offer one

If given the power to make the decisions in this matter, how would you assure a decent education for the kids of Detroit?

[madfloridian]

133. I have already, many times.

You think Gates and Broad and Walmart are best? Let me know in a few years how that works out.

[notesdev]

158. I don't see it

and really, you've expressed absolutely no concern for the actual education of students, I'm wondering what you are trying to fight for here - the right of a public school system to be a complete failure and to be immune to reform?

[madfloridian]

161. You said I have "expressed absolutely no concern for the actual education of students"

That is just another post insulting a teacher who cares.

But then I am getting used to it.

[notesdev]

184. Ah now I see

You ought to examine your own motivations, because you really have expressed no interest in the education of students, whether you feel offended by that observation or not.

[Hannah Bell]

209. bullshit on that.

[WinkyDink]

99. If you think billionaires are in this to educate, YOU need an education.

[WinkyDink]

97. "hijacking of public education for profit." = BINGO. Republicans want literally to OWN THE COUNTRY.

And da*n dumb Democrats happily allow them to loot our tax-money, thinking that somehow these billionare profiteers are going to provide "excellence in education."

AS IF. Of course, our President is loving Charter Schools.

[laughingliberal]

104. K & R nt

[bridgit]

105. Sadly, we did

[upi402]

113. are ya pretty bummed?

it's a firehose of depression here in the land of the free lately

[Telly Savalas]

117. Which of these organzations is attempting to make a profit?

I thought you said they were philanthropic organizations.

[madfloridian]

118. Perhaps you failed to read it.

There is more on the topic of what they are doing.

Right-wing legal power exploiting loopholes for a fundamentalist takeover of public education.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5158

Palmetto Christian School in Florida joins 7 former Catholic schools, turns charter for public money
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5151

AP says "ethic rules have been waived" to allow DOE folks to deal more easily with Gates Foundation
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5105

DOE money to flow to schools which defy their unions. To districts which form charter schools.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5099

Some Catholic schools in Florida converting to charter schools this fall.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5085

NY public school students get limited use of school library so 3 charter schools can use it.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5077

Private Christian school gets charter school taxpayer money. Expels children of woman who questions.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5073

Jeb Bush is delighted that Obama is taking on teachers' unions.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5046

Up to 250 public schools to be turned over to outside bidders? Called a hostile takeover.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5015

Are the words "school choice" public code words for the movement to privatize public education?
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5000

"Stand and Deliver" school, Garfield High, sadly is one of 12 schools available to outside bidders
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/4973

The demeaning of public education began under Reagan. It has worked well.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/4966

Charter school director blames too-hard tests and pupils tired of test-taking for poor test scores.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/4932

The hodge-podge nature of schools getting public money makes it hard to have funding accountability.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/4879

Herbert Kohl on scripted curriculum, surveillance of teachers, and TIME on Arne's 5 billion
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/4833

Charter school principals fired after questioning taxpayer money spent on school's real estate arm.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/4784

"Democracy Privatized!"...education blog talks about turning over public functions to “the market”.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5610

There is intimidation of those who question school closings in NYC...
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5598

Remember they are even turning A schools into charters.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5615

Imagine Charter Schools sells 5 schools for 44 million...will have them leased back to them.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5586

Blogger gets it: Make big bucks by closing public schools, firing teachers, opening charters.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5558

Teacher union head hires fed pay czar to develop plan to get rid of teachers.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5539

[madfloridian]

124. More

To help you understand what is meant by venture philanthropy and never letting a good crisis go to waste. The fact that you think these groups are not trying to profit really is undeserving of a response..but here is more.

Taking the "public" out of public schools.....happening quickly.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5680

Faces of school reform. Too many billionaires.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5655

"a great and terrible charade"..school leaders and entrepreneurs triumphant at school closings?
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5640

Discipline methods from a charter school that would get public school teachers in serious trouble.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5623

"Democracy Privatized!"...education blog talks about turning over public functions to “the market”.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5610

Eli Broad: “We don’t know anything about how to teach or reading curriculum or any of that."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5817

Seems my taxpayer money will be sending many more to private schools....
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5670

Two Florida charter schools in financial crisis. Taxpayer money is paying their debt.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5801

Baton Rouge judges rules it is ok to give taxpayer money to charter schools.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5806

Former GOP insider says "Billionaire Boys' Club" dismantling education.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5787

Boston schools officials: We are not "firing" all teachers, just making them reapply.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5781

1994: Project Censorship The Sandia Report On Education. Showed schools improving. Not published.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5777

WP: It was a "sad, desperate" decision to fire all of R. I. school's teachers.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5765

Parents at PS 15, an "A" school, ask state to intervene in PAVE charter invasion.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5762

Two things: A clear concise indictment of charters, and a Chicago fight to stop school closings.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5754

Harlem charter school head emails show very special access to NY school chancellor
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5748

Living and dying by test scores: a charter faces probation for weeding out problem students.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5738

Charter school exec led hearing to let his school invade a Bronx trade school.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5722

Politically connected NY charter schools to receive 72 million in city money.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5710

Established Bronx trade school may be replaced by untested academic charter school.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5704

A Bad Year for Teachers, a Bad Year for Public Education
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5691

Protesting school closings in Chicago. “They are closing schools without following procedure.”
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5688

KIPP charter school invades NY public school with "A" grade....read the views of both sides.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5684

Florida wants 1 billion of Arne's 4. 3 billion to hire corporate consultants. Unbelievable.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5658

[fascisthunter]

132. thank you Mad

[formercia]

155. This is not about profit, it's about indoctrination

The boys want to get the kids at a young age to make sure they have the 'Right Mindset' for life in the NWO.

[Lars39]

189. Reminds me of James Clavell's, The Children's Story...

http://home.comcast.net/~llefler/clavell.htm

[formercia]

191. Arbeit Macht Frei

And the band played on.

[cornermouse]

134. k & r

Right on.

[formercia]

147. Knights of Malta family reunion

The Inauguration Party thrown by Broad for President Obama.

The guest list looked like a who’s who list of Washington old and new: Hillary Clinton, Mr. Obama’s choice for secretary of state and her husband, former President Bill Clinton; Lawrence Summers, the former treasury secretary and new White House chief economics adviser; Paul Volcker, former chairman of the Federal Reserve; Arne Duncan, Mr. Obama’s pick for Education Secretary, Leon Panetta, the nominee for director of the C.I.A.; Vernon Jordan, the power lawyer, as well as media celebrities like Larry King and Charlie Rose.

[madrchsod]

154. what are they going to do about the social conditions outside the walls?

NOT ONE FUCKING THING.....

[madfloridian]

163. There is growing contempt for teachers under this administration.

And that is a crying shame.

Teachers who speak out here are responded to rudely. There are more and more put downs all the time.

[ecstatic]

167. Minority students in poor areas of Detroit now have a chance, DUers OUTRAGED

[proud2BlibKansan]

172. Wealthy men using students in poor neighborhoods in Detroit to get even wealthier

If you think for one minute this is about educating kids, you are dreaming.

[Fire1]

196. BINGO!!!! n/t

[jonathon]

168. Excellent work on covering this story. Excellent

Thank you for your hard work in keeping DU informed on this important issue that doesn't get nearly enough attention in the main stream press.

[blue_onyx]

170. What is your alternative to this plan?

[Name removed]

173. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bozita]

185. CNN just announced a lengthy report on the Detroit Public Schools will air during the 4pm ET hour

Today, of course.

[readmoreoften]

194. Charter Schools [tm]: Nothing that a little profiteering and union busting can't fix!

[Fire1]

197. Sorry madfloridian, I'm late to the party but in answer to your

question in the OP: Governor Jennifer Granholm.

[madfloridian]

203. Yep that is what I heard. Very much on board with the privatizing.

:hi:

[formercia]

202. Another example of 'Disaster Capitalism.'

Fucking Vultures.

[Dinger]

223. Obama and duncan WILL Rue The Day They Did This Shit

Fucking sickening.

[rpannier]

236. Doubt it

By the time that day arrives they'll both likely be gone and it will be someone else dealing with the mess.
Obama and Duncan will be on board at some lobbying firm.

[conspirator]

242. Private groups own the US Government. Why wouldn't they own the Schools as well? nt

[mstinamotorcity]

251. There are some of us

who are mad as hell about what is going on in the Detroit Public school system.There are lawsuits,pending injunctions and outrage that Mr.Bobb has given himself an eighty thousand dollar increase in salary.When schools were failing in Detroit no one wanted to put education back on the map to success. Now that thousands are going to be without employment,they are screaming from the top of there lungs.No ones listening.They don't give a f--k about what happens to our children or there parents.I am directly effected by Mr.Bobb's arrogant choices in revamping the Detroit Public School system.And all I can say is privatization is his move on everything. And I don't trust him or our old ass former Detroit Piston basketball player mayor.:argh: :argh:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

255. I'd add the Detroit school board to the list

of untrustables.

Has there been a mayor in recent (30 years) history who improved the schools? Does the mayor have the authority to improve the schools, or is it in the hands of the board?

Robert Bobb certainly seems to be improving the condition of Robert Bobb, and the governor just nods her head and smiles.

The only time anyone seems to care about the students is on "attendance count" day, when attendance drives the budget.

Do the teachers care? Or are they just surviving, teaching to the test, teaching to the disrupters?

I doubt if privatization will improve anything, but the current public system seems very broken.

:hi:

[mstinamotorcity]

257. Yes the current system is broken

Look Detroit has had a long history of mis management of funds.the board of education was notorious for this.They gave contracts to friends with no bids, they bought out dated supplies, even bought books that were filled with the incorrect information and dates. We were stuck with the books because they were acquired through one of the board members friend of a friend.what bs.The education system for public education is set up with mandatory standards that don't apply to everyone in all neighborhoods in all cities.If you live in a major city I challenge anyone to go to the school in one of your underprivileged sections of the city.Then go across your city line and go into the suburb.Or a more affluent community.See the difference. Anytime there is a budget cut public education,and public health care are on the chopping block first.The system for educating our children doesn't work for everyone. Have you ever looked at the tonight show? They have a segment called jaywalking. Most of the time Jay Leno goes and finds college aged kids and ask them simple things that are learned in a third grade social studies class.Like who was the President known for chopping down the cherry tree.They may say George but they can't tell you if it was Washington or Bush one or Bush two. What dismal prospects for running the country.And have you heard the one about the history books that have facts in them that are portrayed as legitimate but are altered to have our children believe things that are not so factual.

[defendandprotect]

256. Late K&R ---