Taking a stand has never produced any meaningful political change

[anonymous171]

If you believe this, you need to stop posting and open up a history book. That is all.

[bvar22]

1. I'll take a principle stand, and K&R this thread.

I'll also take a principled stand with Kucinich.
FDR would STAND with us and "Welcome their hatred".

"In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.---FDR

Please notice that FDR said that every American has "The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health."

He did NOT say, "Every Americans has the obligation to purchase Health Insurance from a For Profit Cartel."

[cali]

2. depends, doesn't it?

sometimes it has, sometimes it hasn't. broad generalizations suck by the way.

[anonymous171]

3. It's not a broad generalization if it is true. nt

[cali]

4. sure it's a broad generalization. it couldn't possibly be ore of one

it's not true all of the time.

[anonymous171]

29. Name one movement that succeeded by politely asking for the elite to grant recognize their rights.

[KittyWampus]

5. a lot depends if you're part of an organized group (Rosa Parks) or engaging in empty posturing

(Kucinich).

[Donnachaidh]

8. empty posturing is promising a public option on the campaign trail

And then making backroom deals with Big Pharma and the insurance corporations after you've gotten in to office.

Dennis may be a lot of quirky things - but he cannot be called two-faced.

[alarimer]

34. No, that is out and out lying.

Obama is a liar, nothing more. No different really than the other liars in the party. Kucinich is not a liar, that's why people are mad at him. He points out that the people they voted for ARE all liars.

[omega minimo]

10. Rosa Parks acted as an individual. So did the others in what became "an organized group" AFTER

she did what she did.

[sabrina 1]

11. Are you saying that the Democratic Party was lying to the American

people then? Didn't they claim to be for Single Payer but were willing to compromise with a PO in an effort to move towards it? Now you're claiming they are not even for the compromise. That they were lying. That will cost them next Fall. I wouldn't be so blatant about it, unless of course, I wanted them to lose, if I were you.

Kucinich has the support of that very important although not particularly organized group (until election day at least) called the American people. That's all he needs to justify taking a stand. Because what he is standing for is a right that has been denied to the people in this country.

Sorry you are on the wrong side of history on this very important battle for the right of the American people to have what every other civilized country takes for granted. The good news is you are in the minority on this issue.

[WinkyDink]

20. Rosa Parks part of a group? Ummmmm....no. That's in your Texas "history" book.

[antigone382]

22. Rosa Parks had been involved in the civil rights movement prior to her act of civil disobedience

She trained in civil disobedience techniques at the Highlander Folk School just a few months before she refused to give up her seat. While she may not have been formally affiliated with them, at the time of her arrest she had the allegiance of important groups like the NAACP and the Women's Political Council. In fact, these groups' work in the immmediate aftermath of her actions were what differentiated her arrest from the arrests of three other black women who had refused to give up their seats within the preceding year. Like many of the most significant events of the civil rights movement, her actions were, to an extent, timed for maximum political impact. The fact that such events were more strategically planned than they appeared does not, in my opinion, take away from their moral integrity. Such careful planning, with a focus on eliciting the general public's empathy and outrage, was vital to the ultimate success of the movement. It still took a great deal of courage for individuals such as Rosa Parks to carry out activities that they knew would result in acts of repression, humiliation, and violence against them, even knowing they were not exactly acting alone or without direction.

(I'm neither comparing nor contrasting Rosa Parks and Dennis Kucinich. I'm just offering my understanding of history.)

[anonymous171]

23. I'm sure many incrementalists thought that Rosa Parks was simply posturing as well

[RainDog]

6. change has occurred because the people DEMANDED it

and history shows that when the govt. ignores the suffering of the people of a nation, if the nation isn't smart enough to apply some damage control, ala FDR, they will find the going a lot rougher, like Hitler or Russia.

[LostInAnomie]

7. Making a futile and self-defeating stand never helped anyone.

[athenasatanjesus]

9. You forgot the word immediately at the end of your statement.

Sometimes it takes awhile,but someone has to start it up to break through the barriers.

[omega minimo]

12. No one ever takes a stand that's futile and self-defeating. It's impotent observers who call it that

:hi:

[ShamelessHussy]

15. That's exactly what the elite want you to think... just like a perpetual LOSER

However, that is the only way for real change to occur, for individuals to make a stand.

Remember, there are no time limit in this, like there are in sports, this is life, and the battle of ideas is ETERNAL.

If you don't standup you are fated to be an eternal LOSER.

[WinkyDink]

21. You'd have been great to have around in 1775.

[anonymous171]

24. Someone should tell that to Obama. nt

[ShamelessHussy]

13. The belive of those who fall for anything

I am so glad we have the www today as it makes it more difficult for the elite to BS everyone and totally control the MSG.

[spoony]

14. I've always liked a George Bernard Shaw quote:

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

[ShamelessHussy]

16. “You see things; and you say, ‘Why?’ But I dream things that never were; and I say, ‘Why not?’"

Another great quote of his

:hi:

[athenasatanjesus]

17. Unfortunately the democrats always try and adapt themselves to the political world

while the republicans persistently adapt the political world to themselves.

[Odin2005]

31. Pround Unreasonable Man here!

[ProSense]

18. Taking a stand is not the same as voting against progress.

Martin Luther King didn't oppose the Civil Rights Act because it didn't include voting rights.

[JI7]

25. exactly

[EFerrari]

27. Shoving for profit health insurance further down our throats is not progress.

[anonymous171]

28. Yep. It actually inhibits progress since it further entrenches the insurance industry. nt

[Echo In Light]

36. +1000

[Odin2005]

32. Fascist economics is Progress?

Has DLC Corporatist thinking infected peoples brains so much that Fascism is considered Progress? :puke:

This bill just entrenches the power of the Insurance Industry, when we should be destroying it instead.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. But I bet he would have opposed it if it had required African-Americans

to pay for a license to enter formerly all-white establishments.

[ibegurpard]

19. What a fucking crock!

[BlooInBloo]

26. Good point. Kucinich might well be the only person it *hasn't* ever worked for.

[Odin2005]

30. The only thing in the middle of the road is yellow stripes and roadkill.

[lwcon]

35. But, but...

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Taking a stand isn't politically feasible.

Etc., etc.

[Kablooie]

37. Taking a run never did either, but it's better for your heart.