Oh My -Looks like the runaway Prius story was a hoax

[malaise]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100314/ap_on_bi_ge/us_runaway_prius
<snip>
A memo drafted for a congressional panel says that investigators with Toyota Motor Corp. and the federal government were unable to make a Prius speed out of control as its owner said it did on a California freeway, casting doubt on the driver's story.

The draft memo, obtained Saturday by The Associated Press, said the experts who examined and test drove the car could not replicate the problems James Sikes said he encountered.

Sikes, 61, called 911 on Monday to report losing control of his Prius as the hybrid reached speeds of 94 mph. A California Highway Patrol officer helped Sikes bring the vehicle to a safe stop on Interstate 8 near San Diego.

During two hours of test drives of Sikes' car Thursday, technicians with Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration failed to duplicate the same experience that Sikes described, according to the memo prepared for the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.

"Every time the technician placed the gas pedal to the floor and the brake pedal to the floor the engine shut off and the car immediately started to slow down," the memo said.
------------
Bravo DUers - you called this one early

[mwb970]

1. Sorry, I don't get it.

Was the claim that this would happen every single time the car was driven? I have had many, many intermittent problems with various cars over the years. It never seems to "do it" when the mechanic is present or driving the car. I have never been told that this proves that the problem never happened in the first place.

Listen to "Car Talk". Many of the callers describe conditions that occur "sometimes" or "now and then". I don't see anything in the article to disprove that this was such a case. What am I missing?

Is this like "there is no global warming because it's cold in my yard right now"?

:shrug:

[girl gone mad]

3. His story is full of holes, he's a failed realtor and he has a history of insurance fraud.

Ballon boy, part deux.

[mwb970]

7. Sorry, I didn't see that info in the article.

Or is it in one of the 13798 comments?

[sendero]

44. That may be...

. but "failure to reproduce" means absolutely nothing.

They'll have to do better than that.

[anigbrowl]

153. No they don't.

It's a basic scientific tenet that an experiment should be reproducible. Even with computer errors from people who don't really understand their computers, you can usually reproduce it if you ask enough questions or go through all the possible combinations methodically. What do you think they should do different, nesides following the guy's description of what was going on and attempting to duplicate those conditions?

[readmoreoften]

154. Ad hominem + post hoc fallacy.

Means nothing.

[panzerfaust]

4. Nor I. If it were, as it would almost have to be, a computer software problem

it would not be surprising in the least that could not be reduplicated within two hours. Even purely mechanical systems can have intermittent and hard to reproduce faults.

However, that said, this particular occurrence does have all the signs of a balloon-boy event.

[pipoman]

10. The difference is

the ailments reported on "car talk" usually aren't mechanical impossibilities. This story was. I called it. Brakes not stopping a runaway Prius...just too unbelievable.

[mwb970]

22. Your certainty surprises me.

Modern automobiles are tremendously complex and contain computers with thousands if not millions of lines of code running. Why would you assume that some particular output of such a system could not possibly happen? In my experience with computer programming, literally anything that the system is capable of doing can occur at any time if there is a single logic error in the code.

Also, your idea that it couldn't have happened because you personally find it "too unbelievable" is uncomfortably close to the idea that evolution must be false because it is just "too unbelievable" that humans could result from the process.

[pipoman]

24. There are multiple different

computers on these cars. The computer which controls ABS is a different computer than the one which controls the fuel system. So for this to happen, both computers must malfunction at exactly the same time. Further, I don't believe that the brakes will not stop the car if they are operating, which by all accounts they were. Top that with not one single case has been replicated in a controlled environment, not one. This is Audi II..driver error, happens every day.

Now, let's not get hysterical and start likening mechanical and electronic engineering to evolution, huh?

[8 track mind]

86. Remember

All of those computers talk to each other. They share a common data buss

[Tesha]

98. Not exactly, and probably not in the sense that you mean "data bus".

There are protocols by which the computers communicate vital data
among themselves, but it's not a shared data bus like a PCIbus or
an Ethernet link.

Tesha

[8 track mind]

127. Most of the newer gm's

Share a common data line between all systems including the radio. Everything talks to the Body control module and that reports to the ECM. Each part has it's own address, including the radio. I really wish I had a service manual in front of me to get the specifics, but I would be willing to bet that the main computer has control over every sub-system to some degree.

If this guy is telling the truth or not remains to be seen. The odds are stacked against some thing like this happening, but it isn't impossible for a complex control system.

[Tesha]

141. It's probably a CAN bus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller_area_network

Tesha

[Tesha]

91. It's a bit more than Audi II, but not much more.

My take on this is that there really were five-and-a-half problems with Toyotas:

1. Floor mats in many Toyotas, combined with "long" gas pedals,
lead to the floor mats actuating the accelerator. If I'm not careful,
my Porsche (and its aftermarket but Porsche-branded mats) has
exactly the same problem.

2. The CTS pedals really did have the problem with their too-deeply-
engaged gearing that Toyota has described and now corrected.

3. The automatic transmission shift lever on some of the Toyota models
is simply far too difficult to operate with its gate that requires too
many sideways motions of the lever to get into "Neutral"; this is a
human-engineering failure.

4. The motor start-stop button of the keyless Toyotas has poor
human factors as well. Yeah sure, allowing a three-second press
to shut off the motor is good because it employs the same training
that people have built-up with their PCs, cell phones, and other
electronic gadgets (where a long press of the Power Button shuts
down even a hung system), but Toyota should have included the
same feature that Nissan has where three fast presses of the button
*ALSO* shuts off the engine. This would support users who are
panicking and repeatedly jabbing the button to also shut off
the engine.

5. Hard applications of the brakes should *DEFINITELY* over-ride
the setting of the accelerator. Again, many other car models
do this, even Porsches that still manage to allow heel-toe
braking in ordinary circumstances but know when you're
jamming on the brakes.

6. I think Woz has correctly identified either a firmware defect or
a hardware failure of the "speed-up" switch with the cruise
control of his Prius. Either way, I think this is a real-but-minor
defect in at least his Prius.


But there's *NO QUESTION* in my mind that the media "piled on" and
did everyone a really, really bad service in the way they've reported
this whole problem. Toyota became the media's "flavor of the month"
and they played the story as a "Panic! Panic! Terra! Terra!" story rather
than actually reporting the facts as they emerged.

Tesha

[FreakinDJ]

25. Millions of lines of code

and they started becoming difficult to manage back in the early 90s in complexed automation systems.

That is why the industry started to move towards distributed processors and application layers. Which would make it a simple fix or not a problem in the first place to make to "Brake Engaged" signal over-ride all other processes

[FarCenter]

75. There may be millions of lines of code in the computers that run entertainment and navigation

But not in the several that run engine control, ABS, stability control, etc. My guess would be tens of thousands of lines of code -- mostly C and assembler. Those processors have specialized real time OSs as well.

[FreakinDJ]

84. Some where I heard Automotive systems were at 5 million lines

of code by the time you add Engine, Transmission, ABS, and other peripheral systems together.

And yes they have "Priority Settings" for critical blocks/sub routines which allow them to operate within the program at real time in addition to a structured Hierarchy which allows critical sub routines over ride all other commands.

But from watching the Senate Hearings and some of the testimony it sure sounds like some one "Screwed the Pooch" some where in the process

Doesn't mean there are not programs out there specifically designed or easily adaptable to simulate the processes and examine the sequence of operations in real time.

My point is barring complicity the problem would be found and would make headlines

[DeschutesRiver]

70. Same thing I am thinking

From all the stories I've read, this isn't uniformly a problem that is easily replicated. If it was, it probably would be easier to solve. The intermitant nature of this issue is part of what is making it so dangerous, because just enough people have good experiences that Toyota has been able to blow off reports of bad experiences, at least until the fatality numbers started climbing recently.

And whether one or two of the stories are hoaxes is irrelevant to the fact that Toyota has a major issue happening, that has been reported on for quite some time, and that has killed whole families. Even the fix doesn't resolve the issue for every car.

When there is something about the car you manufacture that causes it to go out of the driver's control to the point of causing fatalities, and you flat out say you have no idea what the actual cause is (but here is a fix that may work or may not), you aren't selling something that I am going to buy, dude.

[Vinca]

2. I'm suspicious of the entire Toyota scandal.

Have any of these problems been reported in other countries? I hope they're investigating possible sabotage. It seems odd the only country reporting problems is the U.S.

[malaise]

5. You are not alone

Our Toyotas come from Japan and we haven't had a single problem. For the record we have more Toyotas than any other brand here.
There's an interesting comment on that page noting that all these problems suddenly show up just when the big three are in serious trouble.

The truth is that all corporations are corporations so I don't rule out that Toyota could have problems covered up, but something does not appear on the level re this one. Indeed -how come this is mostly a US problem.

[pipoman]

11. Actually when the big 3 are in trouble AND

right after Toyota humiliated the big three in the 'cash for clunkers' program..

[kywildcat]

6. That's been my feeling about this. nt

[pipoman]

14. Me too..

this is Audi part II. I would bet that every car make and model have reports of 'unintended acceleration' caused by confusion/panic of the driver. What seems odd to me is that with the thousands of brilliant engineers and technicians investigating from Toyota and hundreds of other less biased sources, no one has been able to replicate this alleged problem.

[Confusious]

143. Mars Polar lander

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Polar_Lander

The last telemetry from the Mars Polar Lander was sent just prior to atmospheric entry on December 3, 1999. No further signals have been received from the lander. The cause of the communication loss is not known. The investigation that followed concluded that the most likely cause of the failure of the mission was a software error that mis-identified vibrations caused by the deployment of the lander's legs as vehicle touch-down on the Martian surface. The resulting action was the shut-down of the vehicle's descent engines while still 40 meters aloft. Although it was known that leg deployment could create the false indication, the software's design instructions did not account for that eventuality.

Humans. Mistakes. 'nuff said.

[DainBramaged]

16. Read my journal for summary, Toyota IGNORES problems and complaints in Japan

and refuses to acknowledge consumer complaints about cars. You can be as suspect all you like, but 51 dead people from accidents related to unintended acceleration in Toyota's can't respond either.

[pipoman]

20. Have you read about the Audi

phenomenon in the 1980's? How many people dead because of 'unintended acceleration' in other makes and models? We know there were some in the 1980's. I would like to see how many reports and which models have been reported. I would bet a steak dinner that every single make and model have had similar reports.

I believe that with the millions and millions of vehicles on the road, that 'unintended acceleration' is a relative commonly complained issue which most often is driver error. I believe it happens with regularity that people simply error while driving, panic, then their accounts are based on the panic.

[Mopar151]

51. I'll take a porterhouse.

Audi's had a problem with the "idle air controller" They did not stick wide - open, but they would hang at 1800 RPM, +/-, and were difficult to control - made worse by accelerator and brake pedals being close together. Throw in some driver error, and there you are. And Mrs. Soccermom should'nt be required to develop the skills of "Jet Truck" Bob Motz to keep her ride under control.
Stuck throttles were a very rare problem in production cars, and they generally had easily discernable causes. You can "beleive" anything you want - there are folks around who beleive Noah had baby dinosaurs on the Ark! - but beleif has little to do with reality.

[pipoman]

57. I would love to know how many reports come in on all makes and models

Is there a source for these stats?

[Mopar151]

66. You could try talking to service people throughout the business

And you'll find out the same things I've told you.

[NoGOPZone]

106. The problem with talking with service people

is that it's a self-selected sample ;-)

[pipoman]

116. I knew one of the engineers who investigated the Audi

'unintended acceleration' as part of, iirc, a DOT team. When the dust settled and the reports came in, after most if not all reports were considered, vehicles tested, etc....for the unintended acceleration to have occurred, both the brakes and the cruise control would have to fail at the same time...an impossibility with any regularity. In none of the cars could anyone, ever recreate the fault, except of coarse the 60 Minutes crew who rigged a car the lied about it, then were proven to have rigged the car...The findings were attributed to driver error. You don't think this current Toyota story sounds anything like that?

[Mopar151]

168. I 'm going by the Car & Driver reports of the time

which is where the idle air controller hypothesis came from. Basically, their conclusion was that IAC malfunction - a common service problem on these cars - made the car ugly enough to drive so that induced "pedal fluster" occurred. And this was verified by controlled testing, with a representative sample of drivers.

[greyl]

148. Data: 117 Models Ranked By Rate Of UA Incidents

www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nhtsa-data-dive-3-117-models-ranked-by-rate-of-ua-incidents/

[pipoman]

150. Thank you very much,

and as suspected nearly every make and model is represented.

[malaise]

162. This story is not going away any time soon

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local-beat/Officials-doubt-runaway-Prius-story-87608267.html
<snip>
entiment has been growing doubting the man's story. The Wall Street Journal reported that the brakes on Sikes' Prius did not show the wear consistent with his story.

Commentator and attorney Michael Fumento said Sikes' story has many holes, beginning with the gas pedal.

"He said it was fully depressed. He couldn't yank it back, and yet when the police officer looked, it was in the normal undepressed position," he said. Fumento also questions Sikes' reasons for not shifting the car into neutral.

Fumento said Sikes gave multiple reasons for not switching to neutral such as fearing the car would flip or being unfamiliar with the car that he owned for two years. Fumento also refused to believe Sikes' when he wanted to keep both hands on the wheel. "This is a guy that for most of the ride had one hand on the wheel and the other hand holding a cell phone," said Fumento.

"I was on the brakes pretty healthy," Sikes said the day of the incident. "It wasn't stopping, it wasn't doing anything to it, just kept speeding up, just kept going, and I called 911 right away, and they were trying to tell me what to do, but I couldn't hold the phone and the steering wheel properly at the same time, so I just kept trying my methods, dropped the phone and it just kept going faster. I just stayed on the brakes as much as I could until finally they started

Source: Runaway Prius May Stay a Mystery: NHTSA | NBC San Diego

[panzerfaust]

72. Here's a recent one from Oz: Ford Explorer

http://www.caradvice.com.au/51111/no-connection-between-runaway-explorer-and-recall-ford/

"Chase Weir was behind the wheel of his eight-year-old SUV on the Eastern Freeway just before 1:00pm when the cruise control jammed on 100km/h.

Despite all his attempts to apply the foot brake, change gears and turn off the ignition the car would not drop below 80km/h.

He called Ford’s service assistance but hung up when he was put on hold by an operator who went looking for a solution...

He spent the majority of his 30 minute, 54km journey on the phone to a sergeant from Victoria Police. "The operator told me 20 times to stay calm and that help was on the way. I was hysterical. I screamed at the lady on the phone ‘I’m going to die’..."

What amazes me is that rather than deal with the issue, some people get on their cell-phones - expecting help from above. They can't drive the car for you.

I have had two unstoppable car episodes myself.

The first was a 1957 Dodge sedan. The brakes completely failed (due to a ruptured hose, thus no brake fluid) when I was test driving the car prior to purchase. The asking price was $45. It was in Seattle, at night, raining, and we were headed down a hill on a back road. I punched the car into neutral (it was this great two-speed auto) and cranked on the emergency brake.

The emergency brake in that model was really great. It was simply a pad of asbestos wrapped around the driveshaft which pinched the driveshaft. Since the driveshaft was wet, it was not getting enough purchase to lock it but - the car slowed enough that it stopped when I ran it off the road into the soft dirt along side the road.

The other was again in Seattle, daytime, on one of the very steep hills Seattle is famous for, approaching a four way stop at the bottom of the hill. No rain this time, and, fortunately, on a quiet residential street.

1958 Olds, auto. Master brake cylinder ruptured due to rust when the brakes were applied. No brakes at all. This was a multispeed auto, and putting it in the lowest range did cause the car to slow some. Full emergency brake (which acted only on the rear shoes) slowed it still more but they quickly glazed - and the car started to pickup speed again so I steered into the high curb and scrubbed along which slowed it still more. Still not enough to avoid going through the 4-way (at perhaps 10 mph) but the car quickly stopped as soon as starting up the opposing hill.

Both were very frightening - especially the second one - but in neither incident did I hurt anyone, or sue anyone, or call anyone (not that I could have).

Besides, I got the Dodge for only $20 after that (plus the $60 I paid a gas-station for a brake job). The car ran for another 8 years.

[Mopar151]

172. The reports are not similar!

The incedence of unintended acceleration in drive-by-wire Toyotas is 50x higher than most other makes and models shown! Fifty effing times! That is not "similar", it's not "most often" driver error! There's only 1 other engine combination represented there that is statistically significant - and if Toyota's not playing it up, it's pretty likely been resolved.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anigbrowl]

156. You're not exactly an unbiased commentator

As in I wouldn't trust anything you said about a foreign car manufacturer based on your word alone. Logically, this problem should also be widespread in Europe, indeed more deaths should have occurred since Europe has a population about 30% larger than the US. While I can't decide what the situation is due to a lack of information, the absence of complaints or death reports from Europe undermines your argument. If anything, Euro regulators are stricter than those in the US, and there are plenty of European car manufacturers competing with Toyota who would have a vested interest in pointing out such a problem.

[WinkyDink]

29. Yes.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article7011671.ece
"Toyota knew of accelerator pedal problem in UK a year ago"

[Donnachaidh]

48. we've been thinking the same thing

Even with Bush's non-working safety controls if these cars had been doing this for YEARS it would have been reported on far more. This *story* popped up too fast. It stinks to high heaven.

[Trekologer]

58. I think that you're discounting Toyota's initial responces to complaints

When customers brought their cars to dealerships for a couple years, the service departments told the customers that there was nothing wrong with the cars. So likely many just shrugged it off. There are even several members here on DU that reported this happening. But when the story broke in the news, those customers who were told there was nothing wrong with the car started saying, hey that happened to me too.

[Donnachaidh]

71. *I* haven't been discounting anything - if there is blame to be laid, it's with

Washington's lack of response to crash complaints AND the MSM's lack of reporting. This was not thing that was reported on much at all in my area. Which means the nationwide MSM was also *not* reporting it.

[dionysus]

159. dupe

[dionysus]

160. is toyota HQ in washington? or are you REALLY going to blame this on the administration?

jesus christ...
:rofl:

[MicaelS]

73. I'm not a bit suspicious..

One possible reason this is happening is the CTS electronic gas pedal design, not the Denso electronic gas pedal design. See the article Why Toyota Must Replace Flawed CTS Gas Pedal With Superior Denso Pedal.

Toyota uses two different electronic gas pedal designs in its cars. The version built by CTS is the subject of a massive recall, and the 2.3 million units in affected Toyota cars are to be “fixed” by the insertion of a steel shim. This CTS design is also being modified for new Toyota production, currently suspended. To our knowledge, Toyotas built with the other design are not subject to any recalls or NHTSA investigations,. We have spent the last two days tearing down both units, and familiarized ourselves with their designs, reviewed Toyota’s “shim fix”, and replicated the fix ourselves. Toyota’s planned fix will undoubtedly reduce the likelihood of sticky pedals in the short term, but after examining both units, we are convinced that the CTS unit is intrinsically a flawed design, and poses safety risks in the long term, even with the fix. The only right action for Toyota is to acknowledge the long history of problems with the CTS-type unit, and replace them all with the superior Denso or another pedal unit that lacks the intrinsic flaws of the CTS design........

More at the link, this is just one part of a larger series of articles:

The Complete Guide To Toyota Gas Pedals: Teardown, Pictures, Toyota’s Fix, Analysis, And Commentary


Unless the drive by wire computer is itself at fault, and no I don't believe for one second this is all driver error, or deliberate human behavior.

[Tesha]

101. "Der Spiegel" reported quite recently that problems have occurred in other countries...

...but it's only in America that people have managed to be killed.

Another implication in their article (IIRC) was that reports of the
incidence of sudden-acceleration problems in Toyotas were no
more common than reports of the incidence of sudden-acceleration
problems in other brands.

Tesha

[hex29a]

135. Other countries don't have nearly as many ambulance chasers or

lawyer-friendly laws.

[Confusious]

142. Cars are made to fit the regulations of the countries they are sold in

Cars sold in California have more exhaust hardware then cars sold in other parts of the country.

Found that out when I was changing my engine.

I don't see it as too much of a stretch that they have different electronics also.

[boston bean]

8. my toyota camry was driven by the technicians for over an hour

and they found nothing wrong.........

I don't care what anyone here says, unless you have experienced it, you really do not have a clue.

My Camry put itself in cruise control, and sped off. I had to break a few times before it went off.

There is something wrong with the electronics and Toyota does NOT want to examine that possibility, instead they would like to blame it on gas pedals, floor mats and drivers.

I am not saying that some people are not committing hoaxes, but there is a real problem here.

No one should have the experience of their car accelerating unless they are the ones commanding it to do so.

If people want to think people are dumb because they don't put it into neutral, you are playing right into Toyota's hands. You should never have to do that while driving down the highway because your car is uncontrollably speeding. Plus, neutral does not always work. There is testimony before Congress regarding this.

Toyota told me there were no errors when they ran the computer test. Well, how convenient, because their computer says no error, there is no problem, that in itself is ridiculous.

[PCIntern]

13. I agree with you...

since my Camry has done some weird things over the years...never runaway acceleration, but responsiveness to changes in pedal pressure very occasionally are not consistent.

[pipoman]

17. Maybe there is an electronic issue

but claims that brakes won't stop the car are simply not believable to me and completely point to the Audi issue of the 1980's. The fact that not only on your car, but on NO CARS has this issue been replicated by Toyota, nor any of the thousands of others testing is quite telling. Many of the others testing have much to gain by being able to replicate this issue. Mechanical and electronics issues are simply not this illusive. In fact, I believe I heard that there is a $1 million reward being offered to anyone who can cause this malfunction on command and still no takers.

[WinkyDink]

32. If the on-board computer reads the code as "accelerate", then no person can make it read "brake."

[pipoman]

35. My understanding is that they are completely independent systems..

[Mopar151]

68. That, apparently, is a major part of the problem N/t

[pipoman]

120. What problem and who is saying that, you are the first I have heard

If these are in fact independent computer systems, do you realize the incredible odds of the brakes and the cruise control, or fuel system malfunctioning at the same time? It would be extremely interesting to know how many of these report are received on which makes and models. Does Prius have electric hydraulic brakes, does anyone know?

[Mopar151]

169. I'm not the first.

It has to do with the chain of logic followed by each computer, and whether hard braking reported by the ABS computer will shut off wide open throttle in the engine control computer. a slight variation of this is used as "launch control" by drag racers, and can be done with no computers at all as stuck throttle protection (ref. "Roush Interrupter/Nascar). Some GM cars in the '80's had electrically boosted hydraulic brakes, but a small (baseball size) pressure accumulator saves enough pressure for 2-3 boosted stops. and you still have manual brakes after that.
And I also notice that Toyotas are the majority of all cars with unintended accelleration. Where's my steak?

[Swede]

146. ABC news should ask for that cheque.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw5tX84vLQE

[left is right]

46. Before there were any published accounts my daughter had a similar experience just once in her Camry

She assumed that she was doing something wrong and talked it over with her Grandpa (retired mechanic pre-onboard computer age) he told her that throttles sometimes get stuck open and if she couldn’t get it under control immediately to put the car in neutral. I have no idea if he is correct about doing it in these late model cars but it made her feel more confident

[JerseygirlCT]

111. I agree. I think it's unrealistic to expect that a few hours

driving will automatically replicate the incident.

And deciding someone is untrustworthy because he's having financial troubles seems wrong to me, too.

[readmoreoften]

155. I'm with you. +1

[Chemisse]

9. Just because it can't be duplicated at will doesn't mean it didn't happen

I am doubtful of this particular story too, but I don't think they proved anything by not being able to make it happen.

[annabanana]

12. So the cop only *thought* he smelled rubber?

Or was he in on it?

[boobooday]

15. He refused to try to put it in neutral when advised by the 911 operator

He's full of it. Get him a balloon.

[DainBramaged]

18. This does not in any way absolve Toyota from the other THOUSANDS of documented problems

I don't see ignored people

[pipoman]

23. Link please to the documentation.

I don't believe there is any real documentation aside from driver accounts which have yet to be duplicated in a controlled environment.

[Mopar151]

38. The gas pedal recall? The frame-rotten Tacomas?

The floor mats? Defective emission systems? Recalled ABS problems in the holy Pious? OBD-2 systems unreadable by anyone without Toyota's "expert"laptop (1 exists in America, Toyota wants $5K per "read").
Unintended accelleration in the Prius may be a "work" - but Toyota's real problems are plenty big enough.

[DainBramaged]

41. Toyota deniers, got to love them.....

Say, want to read the computer in my Cobalt? OBD II reader only $800. And available to EVERYONE. ( I JUST put the GMPP stainless touring exhaust and factory header on it Friday, what a nice addition).

[quickesst]

74. "OBD II reader only $800."

<http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=98614> Links to more cost effective code readers at bottom of page. Mine originally cost $39.95 and has performed flawlessly for around ten years. Thanks.
quickesst

[ddeclue]

85. As someone who has written software for this - there are proprietary codes

you can't read with a COTS OBDII reader so yes you would need Toyota's reader to read all the codes.

[DainBramaged]

90. Not the ones we use in the shop......

Vetronix Tech II is $3500. A layman's is ok around $800. And an Vetronix MDI (below), $2500





OH PS. I am in charge of programing the cars so if you ever came into our shp, rest assured you would be juiced by the Bramaged one (I now use my netbook for programing 2010/2011 models with the MDI).

[pipoman]

53. Anyone who has worked in any make's

service departments know that every single make and model has recalls, some minor, some serious....every single make and model.

[Mopar151]

63. No foolin.

But nobody buried 'em like Toyota. And I know - I did a lot of the recalls through the shop when I was a GM tech, and still have friends throughout the business.
Where's my steak?

[depakid]

43. Interesting that I haven't seen any accounts of this in Australia...

[malaise]

47. or Jamaica

or anywhere else in the Caribbean and Toyota is the #1 brand in this region.

[depakid]

50. Maybe they use different parts or computer systems?

:shrug:

[Brother Buzz]

81. Are your imported left-hand drive Toyotas made in the United States?

Could be a totally different gene pool if they were made/assembled elsewhere. Just a thought.

[malaise]

92. Made in Japan

and right hand drive not left hand :hi:

add

[Brother Buzz]

103. I drove on the left-hand side of the road when I lived in Jamaica in the early eighties

When did you change over?

[malaise]

110. We drive on the left with right-hand drive cars

although there are a few hundreds left hand drive cars around.

[Brother Buzz]

112. Perhaps my Hillman is one of those few hundred left

Wife says it was a '63, I insist it was a '61. We both agree the steering wheel was assigned to the right side of the vehicle. It is the light blue sedan with a Sears and Roebuck luggage rack shabbily bolted to the top. ;)

[malaise]

132. The majority of cars here are right hand drive

just like the UK. That's true in all former British colonies. So if your Hillman had the steering on the right it was in the majority (and I've never seen a left-hand drive Hillman in Jamaica).

[DisgustedInMN]

19. Don't know.. don't care..

... don't buy imported junk cars..

Buy American, keep profits and jobs here. I've lived that my entire life. My F150 kicks ANY foreign POS truck's ass.

[pipoman]

30. and...

them goll-darned kids and their rocknroll are gonna be the ruination of this great country...HEY YOU LITTLE BASTARDS, GET OFF MY LAWN!!11!

[DisgustedInMN]

34. Self delete

[pipoman]

36. It is people who are so

blind to not know that a higher percentage of Toyota's product line sold in the US, are made in the US by US labor than ANY OF THE BIG 3. That nearly 30 years of unbiased vehicle reviews have proven that the true junk has been engineered by the big 3.

[DisgustedInMN]

42. Bull shit.

self delete

[pipoman]

49. You do realize that the "profits"

are minuscule in comparison to the cost of the labor for production of any product? I couldn't give a flying fuck who gets the 2% profit, I am concerned who gets the 60% of the sales price attributed to production labor. So 100% of the 2% of the sales cost is what you are concerned with? "Toyota are closing the one unionized plant they have in the USA to transfer those jobs to Japan", wrong again, they are opening a new plant in Tennessee to manufacture Corolla and Prius I believe. Further this plant in CA you are referring to was a Toyota/GM joint venture which GM WALKED AWAY FROM SEVERAL YEARS AGO...Why isn't GM picking up the reins on that plant in Torrence/Fremont. The only new plants being opened by your beloved big 3 are in Mexico. Don't want to buy a Toyota? Fine. Just don't play fast and loose with the truth about the Big 3 and their abandoning the American work force in favor of building their product with workers who can't afford to buy them in 3rd world countries. I'll bet that the average worker in Georgetown KY who builds Camrys can afford to buy one, as can the workers in the interior manufacturing facility in St. Louis.

[DisgustedInMN]

52. You are ignored.

[pipoman]

54. that is the answer of people who can't face the truth..

[Dreamer Tatum]

79. You should un-ignore and read the reply again and again nt

[DisgustedInMN]

96. Uh.. no thanks..

... but I will add you to my ignored list.

[Dreamer Tatum]

115. Head in the sand, head in the sand...

...lookin' like a fool with your head in the sand...

[pipoman]

129. Your avatar is quite appropriate for this poster, eh?

;)

[Mopar151]

65. Where's my steak? n/t

[pipoman]

122. You must first show me where the list

is which lists all complaints and only Toyota is on that list. I would be happy to admit I was wrong if whoever compiled Toyota's numbers would also release all complains of the same thing and no others are on the list.

[pipoman]

151. Do I get a steak?

thanks to greyl.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nhtsa-data-dive-3-117-models-ranked-by-rate-of-ua-incidents/

yep, they're all there..

[Mopar151]

173. As posted upthread - not in proportionate numbers!

Most makes/models are in single digits. The affected Toyotas - which DO NOT include Prius - report at a rate about FIFTY TIMES higher. That's why Toyota has recalled 8 Million cars, and why Mr. Toyoda has been out making apologies. If Toyota's OBD-2 system captured data as it should, if diagnostic tools were available to read that data (which they are not!), and if Toyota programs were in open-source code, as most manufacturer's are - these things would not be happening!

[Mopar151]

61. Unbiased?

You mean Consumer Reports? I hear that they consistently rate Aisan- badged cars higher than US-badged ones - when they are THE SAME CAR, BUILT IN THE SAME PLANT. A similar phenomenon occurs with Chevrolet and GMC light trucks.

Yes, almost every car company has made a real roach or 2. GM made the Vega and Citation, 1st Gen. Rangers are none too good..
And I remember rusty Fiats, burning Reneaults, lousy Mitsubishis - even Ramblers, with vacumn wipers and friggin' trunnions.
And English cars - OMFG!!! But American cars made in the last 20 years are quite good, and now consistently beat imports in quality ratings.
What Toyota has excelled at is MANAGING PERCEPTIONS - Burying recalls as "service campaigns", often done without the owner's knowledge(!), buying back thousands of Tacoma trucks, even setting up maintainence schedules so that common repairs on other brands are called "maintainence" on Toyotas.

[pipoman]

121. JD Power in another who has in more recent years been rating big 3 cars high

My background is a 2 year associate degree in auto body technology, which has always included frame, suspension, and brakes, continuing education with Hunter Engineering in St. Louis. Hunter Engineering, back in the 1980's and 90's, maintained a joint testing facility which had separate testing facilities for each of the big 3 and several import mfg. companies. Several other companies had engineers on site, Moog, Wagner, I forget who, and they tested virtually every suspension and braking system, pre and post production for those makers. None of this makes me an expert in this issue. It does give me a better understanding of the systems involved than many people. I am more inclined to believe that given the numbers of cars on the road, and having stood in the foyer at walmart and seen the people who drive these cars, that until someone can reproduce this phenomenon, that driver error is more likely...combined with the Audi incident of the 1980's....just me, from my experience, ymmv.

[NoGOPZone]

145. I'm sure you've heard that

Did you bother verifying it for yourself? Because I haven't noticed it yet. For example, in my 2009 Buying Guide, The Vibe and the Matrix as well as the Dakota and the Raider are identified as being twins.

[divideandconquer]

76. We have a 79 billion trade deficit last year in foreign cars

After Walmart, the foreign car industry has done more to bankrupt the middleclass through balloning the deficit, lowering wages or doing away with jobs altogether.
<http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/Trade_Deficit.htm>

BTW, there is no such thing as unbiased surveys.

[pipoman]

125. How many/what percentage

of those car imports are coming in with big 3 name plates? How about the percentage of vehicle exports go out with the big 3 plate on them?

[divideandconquer]

77. We have a 79 billion trade deficit last year in foreign cars

After Walmart, the foreign car industry has done more to bankrupt the middleclass through balloning the deficit, lowering wages or doing away with jobs altogether.
<http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/Trade_Deficit.htm>

BTW, there is no such thing as unbiased surveys.

[blue_onyx]

78. You have any actual stats...

to back up these claims?

[pipoman]

126. No...the post I was responding to was claiming

all Toyotas are built in Japan...which is simply false

[blue_onyx]

133. So you can't back up...

"that a higher percentage of Toyota's product line sold in the US, are made in the US by US labor than ANY OF THE BIG 3?"

Interesting...

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pipoman]

55. No logical arguement = ignore

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mopar151]

87. That's not the point.

Toyota has lost whatever edge in quality Vs. US car co's (particularly Ford) it ever really had. The unionized American co's carry a very large burden of healthcare costs that the non-union co's do not.

[Tesha]

109. I dunno -- I'm going to be quite a while getting over the two automatic transmissions that...

...my '95 Ford Taurus ate up and on the same car, the two rear
brake hoses that had corroding mild steel brackets that pinched-
shut the rear brake lines, leading to stuck-applied rear brakes.

And Mr. Tesha's '96 Dodge Grand Caravan? What an unreliable
vehicle that was; it's settled down a bit in its old age, but just
friday, *IT* ate an automatic transmission.

Tesha

[pipoman]

128. I don't disagree with this..

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

62. What if my FORD Sport Trac engine threw a rod while I'm speeding and cause me to crash?

Do I bitch about Ford being crappy (of course it's not) or bitch the Germans who made the engine?

I have no idea what country the wiring came from, or even the brake lights...probably China.



The point I'm making is their is no car made 100% USA.

[DisgustedInMN]

102. Nice selctive reading there, my friend.

Kindly point out exactly where I said any vehicle was 100% made in America and you'll have actually have made a point. So far...



.. not so much.

[pipoman]

131. Well that will be tough for him,

see, it is usually frowned upon to "self delete" messages, especially after responses have been posted. You said it, I saw it, you deleted it, now you are saying prove it.

[Owl]

93. +1

[Tesha]

105. What's an "imported car"?

Seriously. What car is actually "made in America"?

Hint: No car has 100% of its content made here because, at a minimum,
none of the chips in the electronics are made here. And odds are that
none of the electronics is made here at all.

Tesha

[DisgustedInMN]

107. Asked and aswered,

See post #102.

[AwakeAtLast]

113. Post #102 does not answer that question

It was a legitimate question. I would like to know, too. What good, dependable, and affordable car can we buy and support American workers? :shrug:

ETA: spelling

[DisgustedInMN]

114. I answered the question that was asked, not ..

..the one you just made up.

[AwakeAtLast]

136. If you believe what you just wrote to me

you just might be on the wrong site. I did not ask this question to receive such a snotty answer.

You gonna put me on ignore, too, or would you like to be contributing member of this board?

[DisgustedInMN]

137. Exactly who ...

... appointed you gatekeeper? Want info? Google is your friend. I don't come here to serve as your personal research assistant.

[AwakeAtLast]

138. You need help

If you were trying to make a point at any time during this "discussion" you have failed. Keep going this way if you choose, but I truthfully have never had anyone on DU give me such snarky replies and I've been on DU since 1994.

Like I said, you need help.

[DisgustedInMN]

158. So...

...you've "been on DU since 1994", have you? That's a pretty neat trick, as it came into existence in 2001. Next time you want to play the faux "I'm so offended" card, you might want to get your story facts straight, otherwise you look like just another liar.

:nopity:

[AwakeAtLast]

170. Excuse the mistake

I did mean to type 2004. If this is how you discuss things with people who make a mistake, count me out.

Edit to add: you can easily prove I am not a *liar* by clicking on my profile. None of us are perfect, although you are probably miffed to find out that means you, too.

[DefenseLawyer]

21. Why would Toyota employees have anything to do with the investigation?

That seems like an obvious conflict of interest which would cast unnecessary doubt on the findings.

[DainBramaged]

26. Why would the Toyota defenders even notice that or question it?

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:



Why are the interested parties allowed to even touch the vehicle? If ONLY Toyota can access the computer (unlike GM, FORD and Chrysler who make access EASY) how could you trust them?


Read the threads in my journal......

[FreakinDJ]

28. Your asking the correct question

I had a factory service engineer attempt to switch parts while I went out to my vehicle to get some thing

BTW: Totally unrelated system

[Spazito]

37. That's exactly the question I have as well..

"investigators with Toyota Motor Corp. and the federal government were unable to make a Prius speed out of control as its owner said it did..." The very fact it was investigators WITH Toyota reporting this makes me remember the 'fox in the hen house' analogy.

I don't know if the man's story is true or not but a memo from "investigators with Toyota Motor Corp." sure as hell doesn't have any credibility with me.

[jbnow]

27. Odd conclusion. So the cop is in on the hoax? He reported how strong the smell of

burning brakes was when he drew next to car and seeing the guy lifted off seat with both feet on brakes

Problem not being duplicated is issue in pretty much all the cases which makes the problem in resolution. I realize a republican congressman drew your conclusion as well but it is pretty early for others to jump to it

As far as others bringing up lack of issues in Europe...how do they know? Certainly they were doing fixes for sticking accelerator in Europe well over a year before the recall. But Europe doesn't have nearly the same reporting systems regarding autos. It has no single auto safety agency, and the national agencies rely on automakers for data and for calling for recalls.
There are media reports about the unintended acceleration in Britain and some other countries. There were media reports about the sticky accelerator long before Toyota indicated there was any issue

[DainBramaged]

31. Visually checking the brake pads and rotor it was clearly visible that there was nothing left,"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/13/prius-recall-runaway-priu_n_498099.html


The memorandum obtained by The AP said when investigators placed the Prius up on a lift, they found the driver side front wheel well was dislodged and the brake pads were worn down. "Visually checking the brake pads and rotor it was clearly visible that there was nothing left," the memo said.

Drivers of two other Toyota vehicles that crashed last week said those incidents also resulted from the vehicles accelerating suddenly.

NHTSA is sending experts to a New York City suburb where the driver of a 2005 Prius said she crashed into a stone wall Monday after the car accelerated on its own.

And in Fort Wayne, Indiana, the driver of a 2007 Lexus said it careened through a parking lot and crashed into a light pole Thursday after its accelerator suddenly dropped to the floor. That car was the subject of a floor mat recall. Driver Myrna Cook of Paulding, Ohio, said it had been repaired.

[Boxerfan]

56. To the non-mechanically inclined talking about brakes here

Brakes-brand new & otherwise-can fail in a big way. Simply from overheating. If not applied forcefully at the onset of a runaway engine or steep decline for example-the brakes will heat up to the point of being useless till they cool again.

People who ride the brake or always brake lightly always have problms with brake noise & excess wear. A firm application to smoothly stop a car is not only most effective it helps prevent heat build up/wear.I've seen huge diffrences in customers brake life-almost always due to driving habits/area.

I'd wager you stand just one chance of stopping a true runaway engine before the brakes fail due to overheating.

IMHO-Drive by wire is at fault by the nature of the design. Outside interferance/code glitch-whatever. It's a system without a mechanical link. I'm not buying any car with that or similar features.

Cables & return springs are tried & true-proven-designs.

Retired 35 year mechanic.

[Mopar151]

67. I looked up the replacement brake parts on a Prius

Tiny little things, they are - rears are 7" x 1 1/8" drums.

[TheCowsCameHome]

33. Did I hear this morning that the CA Prius in question

showed no sign of excessive brake wear ?

I thought I heard that on the radio when the alarm went off.

[d.gibbs]

40. What about that out-of-control Lexus in Tennessee

The lady who tearfully testified before Congress said she sold it at 3,000 miles to an unwitting buyer who drove it for 30,000 miles without any problems whatsoever...

[stray cat]

45. but according to some fraud by people is impossible - only corporations practice fraud

[spoony]

97. Yeah you keep throwing that noodle around

but it isn't sticking anywhere, since no one on this board said what you just claimed.

[marions ghost]

60. And this Prius incident

now has my 80 year old mother-in-law deathly afraid to drive her 2007 Camry, although she's a very good driver.

If false, it's working nevertheless... x(

[Make7]

88. You should see Car and Driver magazine's braking results under full throttle for the Camry...

 



http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept
 

[marions ghost]

134. thanks

but how do I explain this to my mother-in-law? She believes that her brakes will not work even if she puts it into neutral. She is also convinced it's an electronics problem that prevents you from controlling the car at all.

:shrug:

it's really a problem--she doesn't want to drive and worries about it constantly. BTW she is totally in her right mind and very sharp, just too much imagination.

This is almost like mass hysteria.

[greyl]

152. Mass Hysteria? Collective delusion.

...
The Anacortes outbreak began early in the morning on April 13, 1954, when car owners noticed the heretofore-unseen pits in their windshields. Losing no time, all available law enforcement officers in the area sped to town in the hope of apprehending the culprits. Roadblocks were set up south of town at Deception Pass Bridge, and all cars leaving and entering the city were given a detailed once-over, as were their drivers and passengers.

To no avail. Farther south, cars at the Whidbey Island Naval Air Station at Oak Harbor were discovered to have the same mysterious dings. Nearly 75 marines made an intensive five-hour search of the station. They came up empty. By the end of the day, more than 2,000 cars from Bellingham to Oak Harbor were reported as having been damaged. Two things became abundantly clear: This could not be the work of roving hooligans; and whatever was causing windshield pits and dings was rapidly approaching Seattle.

Seattle Under Siege

News of the windshield ding-phenomenon reached Seattle ahead of the menace. On the morning of April 14, 1954, Seattle newspaper subscribers read frontpage reports of the events that had transpired to the north. The afternoon papers carried similar stories. At 6 p.m. a report came in to Seattle police that three cars had been damaged in a lot at 6th Avenue and John Street. At 9 p.m., a motorist reported that his windshield had been hit at N 82nd Street and Greenwood Avenue. Then the floodgates opened.

Motorists began stopping police cars on the street to report windshield damage. Parking lots and auto sales lots north of downtown were hit, as well as parked cars as far west as Ballard. Even police cars parked in front of precinct stations suffered damage. Extra clerks were brought into the stations to answer the flurry of calls from angry and perplexed car owners. By the next morning, windshield pitting had reached epidemic levels.

Full Story: www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&File_Id=5136

Diffusion and Belief in a Collective Delusion: The Seattle Windshield Pitting Epidemic

First page image: www.jstor.org/pss/2089002

[marions ghost]

166. thanks

I had never heard of the window-pitting epidemic...

I wonder if there's a more up-to-date case of this? Maybe the election of Bush 43 qualifies?

Does Balloon Boy qualify?

[snooper2]

161. why don't you just get in the car with her..

drive the shit out of it and prove it? Take it up to 100 throw it in neutral and slam the E-brake just for fun :P

[marions ghost]

165. Good idea, thanks!

:thumbsup:

[Mopar151]

174. She could take a clue from this senior citizen

http://www.hotrod.com/thehistoryof/hrdp_1003_chris_karamesines/index.html Chris Karamesines, 82 years old, still driving 300 mph fuel dragsters!
Find a very wide, empty road (industrial parks on Sundays are usually good), and test! Accelerate to a moderate speed - 35 mph to start - and select neutral with partial throttle still applied. The RPM limiter in the engine control will keep it from blowing up, and the test driver can lift as soon as the car goes into neutral - the test will still be valid. If this test proves neutral selection to be a valid technique, progress to hard brake application from the same moderate speed while maintaining throttle - which should stop the car fine. If that test is valid, test thecombination of neutral and hard braking. Then test engine shutoff with moderate throttle - either the key or the 3 second button - but if using the key, verify that the engine can be shut off without locking the steering before you do this test - in most cars, you have to actually pull the key out before the steering locks.
BTW - Paul Newman raced into his 80's, as have a couple gentlemen of my acquaintance. It's a matter of recognizing and respecting your own limits. My mom is 80, and a good driver - like your MIL - and the test is what I'd do with her, if she was driving a Toyota

[TexasObserver]

64. One statement from Toyota and you're convinced?! That's sad.

This massive failure by Toyota has been going on for several years, dating to at least 2007. Toyota - like most manufacterers facing a significant design flaw that could cost them billions - has painstakingly hidden their own informaton on this tragedy. That's why they tried to buy off their own lawyer in 2007 by paying him several million dollars of hush money and getting from him a confidentiality agreement. In 2008, they sued him to enforce the agreement, probably because they suspected he was slipping inside info to lawyers suing Toyota.

Recently, Toyota got an order requiring the former lawyer to turn over those documents to the court hearing their lawsuit with the lawyer. They also seek to enforce the confidentiality agreement, while the lawyer is trying to have the confidentiality agreement with Toyota ruled against public policy, and therefore not enforceable.

Toyota finally acknowledged they had a problem and issued a RECALL, and since then, Toyota has engaged in a marketing campaign to (1) urge Toyota owners to have a sense of ownership pride and come to Toyota's aid, and (2) suggest that the claims might not be legitimate. To do this they rely upon an army of citizens who never fail to side with big companies when faced with consumer lawsuits.

This problem has been going on for years. Do you really think Toyota issued a massive recall because their cars aren't having problems? Do you really doubt that government regulators under Bush looked the other way? Do you know where the Toyota plants are located in the US? Bush and his goons took care of Toyota because they don't care what happens to consumers.

Over 50 are already known dead from this design failure. Your need to bulldoze that with idle supposition based on nothing more than Toyota saying one more time "gee, we don't see anything wrong here" is unfortunate.

Big manufacturers have a long history of lying about defects in their product, and when caught, they lie more and engage in marketing schemes - such as the one now they're using to persuade you and others that "there's nothing to see here." Fortunately, all they're really doing is making sure anyone who is chosen to sit on a jury will NOT be one of the Toyota volunteer message board advocates.

[Patriot 76]

69. I never felt the urge to defend hundred billion dollar corporations.

As if they can't fight for themselves.

[Dreamer Tatum]

82. Just assume the Prius driver is a Republican, and the pieces all fall together nt

[NNN0LHI]

83. We have come full circle. This is exactly what Toyota was saying for years until ...

... the State Trooper and his family crashed, exploded, burned, and all died in one. Then they changed their tune for a little while. Now we are back to the start again.

I would imagine that anyone bringing back a Toyota for any kind of safety related complaint can expect to have some lawyer at Toyota headquarters opening a "dossier" on them. Like having a corporate version of the Patriot Act.

Don

[DainBramaged]

94. When a plane crashes, the airline sends people to 'help' the crushed families

and to give them comfort and to listen to everything they say and 'suggest' ways they could be helped in not suing the airline for what could very well be their fault.


Toyota is doing the same thing. It's CYA mode and attack the people who are complaining, which in and of itself simply sucks and shows you their true color.

HEY TOYOTA APOLOGISTS, the Chairman APOLOGIZED and accepted full responsibility, his cars suck....

[apocalypsehow]

89. What always amazes me when a tale like this is revealed as a hoax is the tidal wave of anger from

those who - X-files style - WANT TO BELIEVE.

[spoony]

100. Yeah, want to believe it's all a US auto conspiracy

And that their precious Toyota would never harm them, lol.

[apocalypsehow]

104. I don't believe it's a US auto conspiracy, either, and have never owned a Toyota or any other

foreign-made vehicle. But I found this tale suspicious from the beginning. Now, it appears, those suspicions are being confirmed.

None of which gets Toyota off the hook for the place-mat fiasco, and the deaths that appear to be directly attributable there. They should pay the families affected just compensation and fix the problem so it doesn't occur in the future.

[spoony]

108. Nothing in the OP reveals this to have been fraud, though. nt

[B Calm]

124. Just the OP opening title of the thread!

[Nihil]

140. FWIW, you're right.

There are a lot of people (even round here) that seem incapable
of discerning the difference between reality and a Tom Clancy novel.

I just hope (for their sake) that it doesn't end the same way.

:shrug:

[PBS Poll-435]

117. Yep

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7896894&mesg_id=7896894


:-)

[Pithlet]

118. Nope.

It hasn't. Nothing in the OP reveals that at all.

[nonconformist]

119. This means NOTHING.

Just because they couldn't replicate the problem in two measly hours means absolutely nothing. I think it's pretty obvious that the problem is a random electrical issue. Random being the operative word here. Not only does this not prove that this particular case is a hoax, it should scare the crap out of everyone that THEY CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT THE FREAKING PROBLEM IS.

Look, this may very well be a hoax. But *this* doesn't prove that it is, and it also doesn't explain the numerous other cases of out of control Toyotas. Of course the fanboys will believe what they want to believe.

[harun]

149. It isn't a hoax. Their conclusion means NOTHING, as you say.

They aren't even claiming it means something, jackass ignorant reporters are.

[B Calm]

123. Has anyone ever took your car to the mechanic because it was

making a noise or something? Then at the mechanic shop, it quits making the noise. . .

[Hansel]

130. Yep. Took my car in to inspect the brakes 5 times and they claimed

nothing was wrong with them. Until the drums were ground down and it cost me $1500 in repairs.

I still don't see hoax unless the Highway Patrol Officer was complicit in it.

[Statistical]

139. What made his story so unbelievable is the Prius is the 0.00000001% of cars that have brake override

In my car if I push down both gas and brake the car will try to "go".

In a late model Prius (starting in 09) the brake overrides the gas.
Push down both brake and gas to the floor and a switch in brake "ingores" the gas and returns throttle to idle.

IMHO the govt should mandate this on EVERY SINGLE car since all models now have electronic throttle control.

[NoGOPZone]

144. The heel and toe crowd isn't going to like that government mandate

Although manual transmissions are a very small percent of the cars driven in the US

I think you may be wrong about what year the override was implemented in the Prius. Skikes' was a 2008. This article somewhat vaguley states Toyota began installing the override in other models only 'this year'

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-prius15-2010mar15,0,3128570.story?track=rss

[Statistical]

163. I likely am wrong about the year.

I remember hearing it briefly on the news.

I was thinking it makes sense to have it as a "backup" on every car.

[NoGOPZone]

147. The memo in question is available on line

Sikes' attorney was evidently present during the investigation.

http://jalopnik.com/5493011/this-memo-proves-the-runaway-prius-was-a-hoax

[EFerrari]

157. So, those guys who told me I was wrong were right!

Good going, DUers!

[greyl]

171. You deserve recognition for that post.

Whiz, there it went!

[Nye Bevan]

164. Reminds me of the Pepsi can syringes scare

There's always a nutcase or two hoping to cash in.

[marions ghost]

167. Chicken head in the wingbox?

Remember that one? In the year 2000. The woman who was traumatized at KFC when she found the chicken head in with the wings, only later it was found to be a hoax. I don't think she got any money out of it. :rofl: