I'm pro-teacher, pro-union--but I side with the students first

[ecstatic]

Just like some of you want health care reformed, I really want the American educational system to be reformed. Anyone standing in the way of that goal needs to be fired and replaced--and that includes Arne Duncan, if his plan doesn't work. I'm willing to give him a chance, since the people complaining the loudest have not succeeded in fixing the current problems.

[Heidi]

1. Recommended.

:kick:

[olegramps]

51. I really don't grasp what there is to recommend.

The problem is how do you overcome the root of the problem which is poverty. Far too many of these failing kids are from single parent homes headed by someone struggling to survive. Do you think that these failing schools are located in wealthy communities? In every case those that are failing have a substantial number of kids that qualify for free meals and in some cases that is the only meal that they have. Arne doesn't have a solution other than close the school and fire the teachers and somehow the problem will be magically rectified. How President Obama could have praised the firing of the entire teaching staff of school is beyond belief.

[Heidi]

52. My mother taught first grade for nearly 40 years.

She was always about the kids. In the school district where I grew up, more than 70 percent of the kids were on free and reduced lunches. Fortunately (most years) our state had warmish winter, but when the winters weren't warmish, my mom bought her students' hats, coats and gloves, and a few times in the warmer seasons, their shoes. I don't give a fat rat's ass about Arne Duncan or our president in this situation. This is about the kids. And I trust the people most close to the kids.

[Catshrink]

53. So you want us to buy our students' clothing and feed them

because that will make us better teachers? On my meager salary? We can be about the kids without feeding and clothing them. I think you are terribly misinformed about what a teacher's role is.

[Heidi]

55. Is that what I said? No, it is not what I said.

I think you may be a teacher who needs a refresher course in reading comprehension.

[Catshrink]

59. Yes, it is what you said.

You said you momma bought clothes for her kids and she was a good teacher and she cared about her kids. That's the only thing you mentioned about being "for the kids." And there's nothing wrong with my reading comprehension -- those with no arguments must stoop to personal insults. Watch it. You're in way over your head here.

[Heidi]

60. Do you think she did something wrong?

That's how it was in a low-income school district, in a state where teachers were forbidden by state law to organize. The kids had no advocates besides their teachers.

[Catshrink]

62. Hey, if she had the money and that's how she chose to spend it, good for her.

The fact that she bought coats for her kids doesn't tell me anything about her ability to teach, only that she cared about the kids. Those are not the same thing.

[Malikshah]

63. Nope--but on the other hand, she didn't teach you basic argument skills

Well, better get her fired retroactively for doing such a piss-poor job with her own kid...

After all, I'm siding with kids and if one kid didn't grasp the basics of reading comprehension and the messages conveyed...

[Heidi]

65. She wasn't one of my teachers.

And my own personal opinion is that it should take a ton of bricks to get a teacher fired. Test results aren't enough. Personal dislike for the teacher isn't enough. Public opinion isn't enough. Evidence of lack of commitment to students? That's enough. Teachers should not be expected to shoulder the burden of education alone, but very often they do--particularly in situations where coaches and driver's education teachers are the ones being promoted to administrative positions.

That whole "if only one kid" is saved from drugs or "if only one kid" learned math meme is a pretty low standard, I'm sure even you would agree.

[Malikshah]

67. Whoooshhhhhh (That's the sound of the argument going over one's head)

Yet again...

[marshall]

64. I've read that some free lunch programs extend to giving free food to take home too

For the weekends and holidays, they offer the children free staples to take home because they realize the only real meals they are getting are the free breakfasts and lunches that are offered by the school district.

I do think there is a cycle and breaking that cylce is problematic in that we have to decide how much interference in family and culture is waranted for the good of the child. I noted when I was teaching, for instance, that many of the grandparents I was dealing with were in their late thirties. Their children had become parents before they really got a chance to get their own lives off the ground emotionally and financially. if it is repeated over several generations it creates a systemic issue that isn't a problem within their own culture but becomes a problem when they try to interact with the rest of society.

The extreme (and in my opinion horrid) solution is like the Australians did with the Aborigines, Canadians tried with their First Peoples, and the US tried--taking the children away and educating them in government authorized schools.

[tonysam]

2. His plan , which is supported by Obama by the way, won't work.

Both are enemies of public education.

[ecstatic]

We'll see. Keeping things the same is not an option

There are students in high school who can barely read.

[YvonneCa]

15. Straw man. I have yet to see anyone argue...

...for the 'status quo.'

[MadHound]

3. So you're willing to give a plan that destroy's the teachers' unions, forces teaching to the test

Promotes the destruction of public education and the rise of private, for profit education, that will lower teachers' wages a chance to work, even though countless education professionals are aghast at the destruction this will wreak on our children, while continuing to blame the teachers to the exclusion of all others.

OK, that tells me all I need to know about you, your viewpoint and your ethics, none of which are good.

Let me guess, you would also blow up your house in order to get rid of termites.

[ecstatic]

6. I don't agree with your analysis

You can't stand what the current admin is doing. Well I can't stand how the educational system sat idle for decades as U.S. students fell further and further behind.

BTW, I'm no fan of privatizing all schools, but private schools would increase, not decrease teachers' wages. States always pay less than private companies.

[Catshrink]

8. Wrong.

Schools are not companies and private and charter schools pay less than public schools and often offer no benefits, pension plans, or job security.

[ecstatic]

11. OK. I'll take your word for it, but, as I said, whatever works best for students

is what I will support--even if it is at the expense of benefits and job security.

[MadHound]

17. Ah, so you're willing to throw teachers under the bus,

The ones who have the least amount of control over what happens in schools. My, aren't you the compassionate one.

Tell you what, I don't like how your current profession is making progress. Frankly I don't care what your profession is, lets just cut your salary and benefits, that should make everything better, right. Makes about as much sense as what you just stated.

[ecstatic]

23. I think teachers should be paid more (separate issue)

Again, my post is not about wanting salaries cut, but about finding the system that works best for disadvantaged students.

When we reform health care, many doctors and nurses will be paid less as insurance companies as hospitals are forced to cut costs. Same goes for the American auto industry.

Change sometimes comes with, well... change. People who used to look towards education, medicine, the Big 3 for secure safe jobs will have to change their view going forward.

[MadHound]

66. LOL, you say that you think that teachers should be paid more in one breath,

Yet in the next compare teaching to medicine and auto manufacture, stating that they're going to have to cut wages in the next.

So in other words you're trying to say that pay and benefit cuts in education are necessary and inevitable. You know, that's exactly the wrong position to take, since in countries like Japan, where they pay teachers very well and where education is job one, their education system is one of the best in the world. You can't have a top notch education system without paying for it.

[fishwax]

22. undercutting teachers doesn't help students

[stillwaiting]

44. You're all over the place on this issue.

If you really didn't know how little pay and benefits that private school teachers receive compared to public school teachers you just are not informed at all on this issue.

That's basically at the 101 level of understanding this issue.

It sounds like the top 1% have you right where they want you. You're willing to go along with a system that will NOT better educate our citizens, but WILL provide masses of profits and taxpaying dollars to the same ownership society.

Do you think that the European, Canadian, etc. schools are able to get better results than we are through their public education systems? If so, why do you think that might be?

Make no mistake, privatization of our education system will dumb down and FRAGMENT our society even more than has already occurred.

[Fire1]

49. THANK YOU!!! Belated welcome, too! n/t

[Fire1]

41. They CAN'T! Their salaries are all dependent upon

enrollment!!

[donco6]

10. Private schools rarely pay teachers more than public schools.

Most often because they don't require certification. Nor do they have to be "highly qualified" under NCLB like public school teachers.

[tonysam]

21. It's mostly because they don't have the money. I made about half

in a private school what I made in public.

[MadHound]

13. Wow, where do you get your information?

Have you gone out and compared the average or median wages for private schools vs. public schools. Private school teachers are generally paid twenty to forty percent less than surrounding public schools. Furthermore, private school teachers don't have to be licensed by the vast majority of states.

You want to know why the education system has gone downhill? It certainly isn't the teachers. Instead we have had NCLB for the past eight years, not to mention the fact that school funding, especially in urban and rural schools go down the toilet. Even voters in suburban school districts have withheld needed money, resulting in more students be crowded in to classrooms and programs such as art and music being cut.

Not to mention that parenting has deteriorated over the past forty years as there are more single parent households or households where both parents work, leaving kids to fend for themselves after school. Oh, and there is the increasing poverty rate that effects students, not to mention increasing trauma that students face, things like divorce and abuse.

Oh, and let's take a look at our local school boards, which have been taken over by a RW fundies as the conservative christians launched a concerted attack to take over school boards around the country starting thirty years ago, a movement which has led to dumbed down curriculums and the eviserating of our public schools.

Don't forget the voters either, since they are the ones who control the purse strings. The vast majority of school districts in this country are required to get a supermajority of votes in order to raise any funds for the school system. This has led to decreased funding throughout the country (hence the sprouting of all those classroom trailers over the past three decades, since voters won't vote in proper facilities, not to mention proper salaries.

You are horribly uneducated about teachers and our education system in general, and your willingness to go along with the destruction of our public school system on the basis of your limited knowledge is simply appalling. Go out and educate yourself, then see if your opinion remains the same.

[ecstatic]

30. I stand corrected on the salary issue

Let me reiterate--I support whatever system works best for students. When that system is discovered, we can look at ways to reward the teachers in that system.

[MadHound]

43. I've got the system for you

Japan, where they give teachers the respect, and pay scale, that doctors get in this country. Where facilities are fully funded and instead treating their education system like shit, they actually put the force of action behind the words that we piously mouth "Education is one of the most important jobs".

You start paying teachers on par with doctors you're going to attract a better quality teacher. You start fully funding education so that there are arts programs and after school programs and up to date tech and the roof doesn't leak and the text books were published last year instead of last decade, you will get a better education system. It isn't that difficult a concept.

But instead we're fucking around trying to do education on the cheap, and do more within the confines of education that used to be done by parents. Is it any wonder that education is suffering?

Money, that is the answer.

[YvonneCa]

18. Excuse me...I didn't sit idle...

I worked my TAIL off for my students for 24 years. You?

[sandnsea]

25. The "education system", not you personally

Don't read shit in that isn't there, and then attack the poster over something he didn't say.

The education system has failed millions of students and continues to. Continuing to just blame the parents isn't satisfactory. There are bad parents in every district, and yet their kids learn. They take kids with bad parents and put them into a charter, and voila, the kids learn. What in the world is wrong with improving the way we educate. Teachers have been screaming for improvement for decades, they're getting the exact measures they've been asking for, and they can't even see it. It's stunning.

Make a list of what charter schools get to do that you don't.

Then come back to me and tell me if that list isn't the exact problems teachers have identified for years.

[YvonneCa]

42. The poster said...

...this: "Well I can't stand how the educational system sat idle for decades as U.S. students fell further and further behind."

Sorry, sandnsea...I am part of the "educational system." I have been for DECADES. I still am. I have colleagues and friends who have been and still are part of the 'educational system." I know their commitment to students and how hard they work...like I did. That makes this personal for me.

I was not blaming parents...I never have. I am one. My daughters are parents with kids in public schools. I believe in working together WITH parents FOR kids.

I do not discuss the charter issue on DU. Too inflammatory for me.

And, in (almost) every post I make, I say that I think we need to improve the way we educate...I support the urgency and the goals for ed. reform. I just think there are flaws...and I hope those flaws are fixed when Obama re-authorizes ESEA.

[tonysam]

20. The administration doesn't give a shit about kids or education.

It is bought and paid for by the Business Roundtable.

[ecstatic]

32. the charter schools appear to be having great success

if that's what it takes to get students learning again, then I support it. If it comes at the expense of your job security, so be it.

[Fire1]

47. Got a link for that? Not a FEW in one state or the other. I'm

talking, national!

[Catshrink]

58. Do you understand what job security means to a teacher and what threatens it?

Let me offer some insight into why this is so important to us:

1) A student gets a B in a class, parents are upset because it should be an A because the student has always had A's before. Parents contact administrator. When we have job security, we can show the grades for assignments, assessments, papers, etc. and justify the grade: case closed. With no job security, the aforementioned might happen but, if that parent is vocal and well-connected, that teacher may find herself in a the proverbial hot seat.

2) Students decide they don't like a teacher because they have trouble following class rules (like being quiet when the teacher is speaking or staying on task) and decide to rally together to "get rid of her." Students create a petition and circulate it, parents get involved. With job security, the teacher presents her side, offers documentation of student effort and misbehavior, administrator sees that students are retaliating: case closed. (This happened last semester to one of my colleagues.) Without job security, this could result in firing if the principal also has it in for the teacer, regardless of how good the teacher is.

3) A teacher speaks up about a policy change at a school board meeting. The board listens politely but disagrees with the teacher. The teacher is disappointed but accepts the board's decision. With no job security, a board member may object to a teacher confronting the board and demand the teacher be fired. (This happend to a friend of mine who taught at a charter school, except it was the wife of a board member that demanded the firing -- and it was granted!)

These are just three examples. You obviously are not a teacher or you wouldn't so flippant about something we hold so dearly.

[goclark]

76. No Child Left Behind left so many children behind ~

As far as "teaching to the test," the Public Schools were under more pressure to teach to the test during the NO CHILD days than ever before.

Many children were left behind in the Urban areas and "Most Children" Advanced in the Suburban Areas.

I was closely associated with the Public Schools during that time, in the Urban settings as well as the Highest of the Suburbs.

I am reminded of my experience in the late 90's visiting schools all over Japan -- Education is truly valued there, by the rich and the poor. Many of them go to Saturday School and tutoring.

[lunatica]

4. So do nearly all teachers and their unions

They speak out the loudest when funds are cut and when classroom sizes increase and when they aren't allowed to teach for knowledge but are forced to comply with deleterious teaching for the tests that get the schools money.

You're 'but' doesn't really apply. The exceptions don't make the rule.

[tonysam]

27. Teachers aren't "decision-makers," unlike what is taught in college.

Teachers find out very quickly the public school bureaucracy is run like the military. You MUST follow all orders from a principal, regardless if it is stupid, unethical, or even illegal, or risk your career being destroyed.

Even being written up can potentially ruin you. There is an extreme power imbalance between teachers and principals/other administrators. Administrative law is HEAVILY rigged in the latter's favor, and teachers have little recourse to sue in civil court.

[sandnsea]

5. His plan has proven successful in places like Denver

Why these teachers are lying about Duncan's plan is beyond me, but there is evidence all over the country that Duncan's ideas will work. You can start with the Harlem Children's Zone to know there are better ways to educate kids, which is another model Obama is expanding. http://www.hcz.org

[donco6]

16. You need to read Goeffrey Canada's book first.

We're forming a "HCZ" here in Adams County, but really avoiding a lot of the pitfalls he fell into.

First, Canada's charters were completely controlled by a private corporate board, which demanded test scores increase IMMEDIATELY. He barely had a year to see improvement, so he fired his first principals because they didn't make it happen. Then he implemented a strong "teach to the test" program at both levels. Even then he ended up closing his middle school program and focused solely on his lottery-driven elementary school. Yeah, he's seeing success there, which is great. But it's certainly not serving all the kids - even in his Zone. They have to apply and then they get lotteried.

The best thing about the zone that we're trying to emulate is the focusing of all available social services into a concentrated area. We're working with Adams County to develop the zone and coordinate all existing and newly-formed programs to attack the problems there. We're starting a Baby College. We've already got adult classes in English. But there's lots more to do.

But I would NEVER emulate Canada's instructional models. They're soul-crushing, IMO.

[sandnsea]

19. That's the point of a model

You learn from the mistakes and implement what works. That is what public schools are supposed to be doing with all these charters, LEARNING. It looks like your district is, so why in the world are you fighting reform? I don't get it. You're in a district that is doing exactly what Duncan wants done, from the local level, and you don't even get it.

And yet continue to insist parents are the problem. I'm a parent. I get it. Other parents at DU get it.

And I can't say anything else because otherwise it will be considered labeling a group and the post gets deleted.

[donco6]

31. No, sandnsea, no, we AREN'T doing what he's talking about.

First, WE decided what needed to be done. It sprang from OUR minds and OUR values. In fact, that's the FIRST thing we did, was develop a real strategic plan which forced us to look at our shortcomings and create something new. We did that over 3 stressful days at the Stanley Hotel in Estes Park. But when we had it, we had it - and we owned it.

We then created our own schools - yes, some national models, but some home-grown. And none were chartered.

We argued a lot about the "autonomy" language that's always thrown around. And we decided that schools work better when they're part of a system and can focus on the important stuff - not how lunch is served, or whether you have buses, or who maintains the building, or pays for the lights. Let the principals lead and the teachers teach, as much as possible.

We did figure out how to better budget for the buildings, weighting the formulas for schools with higher Free/Reduced, higher ELL pops, less-experienced staff and overall size.

I don't remember ever saying parents are THE problem. Our parents certainly can be a problem. We have lots of meth here, and gangs (where MOM and DAD are in the gang, not just the kids). But I see the problem lying in the insistence that education is a SCHOOL problem. Fix the SCHOOL and you fix EDUCATION. I couldn't disagree more. Education is a COMMUNITY problem. You can tinker with the school all you want - fire everyone, remake whatever you want - but if the community remains unchanged, it's all over.

I strongly OPPOSE the one-strategy-fits-all approach of the Duncan plan. Especially the cockamamie idea that firing half the staff is some sort of answer. It's absurd! It costs me over $10,000 for a summer certification training for ONE Montessori teacher! And if their scores don't magically rise, I have to fire her? Why?

So that's what gets my pressure up. I hate these no-nothings who come in, point to something they think is "successful" (based on cursory, surface analysis) and then insist - "Do what THEY'RE doing, or else!" Ugh.

[sandnsea]

37. Yes. YOU decided, just like with RTTT

The local district decides. And guess what, you decided to implement a plan that is one of several that Duncan is suggesting to the rest of the country. Congratulations. You're a model. The reforms DO NOT HAVE TO BE CHARTERS. That is a big fat LIE. The only other thing I'm interested in is whether you have a system to identify gaps in learning and measure success when you implement new strategies to decrease those gaps.

And with that, I have to go to work, sorry.

[donco6]

78. Just one final note.

Even with all these changes we've implemented - if we don't pull test scores up fast enough, we're going to have to do it all over again for some reason. It takes a while for scores to improve, and it's possible we won't make it at some sites. I just don't know why anyone would think that's a good idea - but we wouldn't have any choice about that.

[earthside]

24. What?

You're misinformed.

Colorado was one of the first states to adopt this whole testing/standards/accountability/charter theory when Democrat Roy Romer was governor. Republican governor Bill Owens embraced it with fervor as part of No Child Left Behind.

If anything, Denver schools lag behind the rest of the state.

This is the results of this policy:

Nearly One in Three Colo. Graduates Needs Remedial Courses in College, Study Finds - Denver Post; February 9, 2010

Obama/Duncan is NCLB-plus. This theory has failed for the past ten years ... it won't work better just because more money is shoved into it and the terminology is altered.

Of course, parents and students and teachers have never really been consulted from the beginning of the whole testing/standards/accountability/charter idea: this is a top-down, "we know best what's good for you" scheme. Which is why it fails, parents and students (and most teachers, too) are not invested in the outcomes -- they're all just supposed to 'obey' and test well. Just like Bush/Spellings, the Obama/Duncan version is actually all about the politicians trying to show the voters that they are 'tough' on education (which is why the Republicans love NCLB ... very bipartisan, uh?).

[sandnsea]

34. From your linked article

"DSST — a Denver charter school — had the second-lowest rate of remediation among all Colorado high schools."

In addition, Colorado is addressing the decreased standards that were implemented as a direct result of NCLB, which Obama and Duncan have recently addressed. Every child must be ready for college and a career, that's what they've both said. Sorry that won't fly with the "every kid isn't college material" mantra of teachers. They're going to have to change.

From your article:

"In December, the state Board of Education adopted a new set of content standards that will be the basis of a coming assessment to replace the Colorado Student Assessment Program."

[donco6]

40. I live right by DSST.

It's located in Stapleton, which they don't tell you. High-income area. They'll claim the school is "comparable" to the surrounding schools, but I'm looking right at it and can tell you it is NOT.

I'm sure DSST is a fine schools, but there are a lot of other schools that are better examples of overcoming obstacles to good performance. They don't quite get the press that DSST does, and it's a shame.

Note, unlike public schools, they refuse admission to kids in 11th and 12th grade.

[earthside]

46. FAIL

Bottom line: "About one in two grads from Aurora and Denver Public Schools needed remediation. And five of the 10 Colorado schools with the highest remediation rates were in DPS."

And, please, "content standards" ... there were hardly any teachers, students or parents involved in the drafting of those "standards". Furthermore, it is looking like we will get even more testing with the replacement to the Colorado Student Assessment Program. The testing regimen already eats up at least three weeks of potential classroom learning time.

And, what does this mean? "Sorry that won't fly with the "every kid isn't college material" mantra of teachers. They're going to have to change."

Every kid isn't college material, that's a statement of fact. What do you think children and young people are? Little drone-like receptacles that must all be filled mechanically with sufficient 'information' to allow them to test to "college and a career" standards set by bureaucrats at the state capital and in Washington?

This whole Obama/Duncan scheme is so technocratic, cold, and impersonal -- ironic, since real learning is so dependent upon the human element: parent, teacher, student interpersonal relationships.

[FrenchieCat]

29. My hubby was talking to me about Harlem's Charter Schools.....

says that now that Black children are testing as well as the kids in private schools, White folks are moving into Harlem to try to get their kids into those schools. He said that the difference of course is that the Charter schools cost nothing, while the private schools cost a small fortune. I haven't looked it up, but that's what he was telling me yesterday. I had asked him why so many didn't like the charter school idea. He had said that Black folks like it fine.....it's the Teacher's Union who might not, cause it means less control for them.

I've been quite neutral on the subject, but I've noticed that the fact that it is mainly minority schools that are failing, and it appears that folks don't want to try what might work. If this is the case, than that is really too bad. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

I sent my children to private school precisely because the public schools in our area were not too hot. We sacrificed a lot to pay for it. I don't wish that on anyone else.

[MadHound]

39. We can always count on you to bend the truth to the breaking point

In your support for this administration. You're blind loyalty is as predictable as it is pathetic. Your use of biazed stats (HCZ's own stats) to try and prove your point is ridiculous, especially when independent studies show that charter schools actually don't do as well as public schools
<http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/education/july-dec04/charter_8-18.html>
Here's one reason why Harlem is supposedly doing so well, they're doing it off the back of the public schools
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7804170>

And let's not forget that unlike public schools, charter and private schools screen their students, yet they're still doing worse than public schools.

But hey, anything, any lie in order to protect the precious Obama from criticism. That's OK, keep your head in the sand, but don't be surprised when teachers turn out en masse this fall and in 2012 to kick Dems and Obama out of office.

[Catshrink]

7. If by

"the people complaining the loudest" you mean the teachers who are speaking out about Duncan's doomed to fail methods you are so wrong. Give teachers the tools to fix the problems! Give teachers a voice at the table!

Do you expect an emergency room doctor to be able to cure a stage 3 or 4 cancer? Ridiculous, right? Those who expect a classroom teacher in an impoverished school - like those being "reformed" by Duncan's tools or taken over by the for-profit corporations (Central Falls, Detroit, LA)- to be able to "cure" the multitude of problems the students face are living in a fantasy world.

You say you're a teacher. Surely you've encountered kids who come to school tired or without adequate nutrition. Surely you've encountered children who just don't care and would rather play video games than learn anything. Surely you've encountered kids whose parents are physically or emotionally absent. Imagine having these problems in 80% or more of the kids in your class. Can you fix it? How do you overcome this? You can't yet the Obama-Duncan approach is to blame the teachers and fire them.

Obama-Duncan are taking over schools in impoverished areas with their business model. We as teachers know what the problems are and know the Obama-Duncan methods aren't addressing the problems and will not work (they didn't work in Chicago). In the process, they are throwing good teachers out with the bad in a wholesale blaming approach. Are there bad teachers? Yes. Are there as many as Obama-Duncan imply? No. It's incredibly disheartening to have our entire profession castigated the way the Obama administration is doing. As someone who works her butt off everyday, I resent the implication that I'm not doing my job, that teachers are failing our kids. It isn't the teacher, it's the system.

The anti-union approach of Obama-Duncan are stripping away union protections (as you know these are important to prevent retaliatory firing -- if a parent in a charter school gets pissed off because little Suzie didn't get an A on her science project and if that parent is well-connected, good bye teacher!), pensions, livable wages, and teacher voices.

Support Obama-Duncan at your own peril. I hope you have a back up employment plan or are finacially secure.

[KittyWampus]

9. If it takes $100 to fix a roof and all you get is $50, eventually the roof will collapse-

not because it's structurally unsound but because the proper resources were never directed towards fixing the problem.

Further, no plan will fix parents who refuse to hold kids accountable or are uninterested in making sure their kids value an education.

[YvonneCa]

12. I agree with the goal of improving public...

...schools and the urgency of doing so. The method of reform is flawed...that will hinder the goal.

[Catshrink]

26. And it will hurt the students while Obama-Duncan experiment.

[YvonneCa]

33. True. It will.n/t

[ecstatic]

35. Sort of like how it hurt the 107 kids who will be headed to college next fall?

:shrug: The kids who would have otherwise been statistics?

[Catshrink]

38. Are you talking about the charter school where all kids went to college?

That was bullshit walking there.... read this thread about the real story and statistics compared to CPS students. They are doomed once they get to college, unless it's Walmart U.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7913205

[AnneD]

14. I think I'll quote Bill Maher...

New Rule: Let's not fire the teachers when students don't learn. Let's fire the parents.

Now, last week President Obama defended the firing of every single teacher in a struggling high school in a poor Rhode Island neighborhood, and the kids were outraged. They said 'why blame our teachers' and 'who's President Obama?'

You know, I think it was Whitney Houston who said 'I believe the children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way' and that's the last sound piece of educational advice this country has gotten... from a crack-head in the 1980's.

Now, I know what you're saying. 'But Bill, what do you know about raising kids... You don't have any!' Yeah, I also don't have any fish, but I know not to fill their tank with Mountain Dew... or to enter a kid in a beauty pageant or let them be an altar boy. What you do with your spawn affects me. They're the ones who run me over while they're texting. Because they're using an online dictionary to spell 'Where You At?'

Yes, America has found its new boogie man to blame for our crumbling educational system. It's just too easy to blame the teachers, what with their cushy teacher lounges and their fat-cat salaries and their absolute authority about who gets a hall pass. But isn't it convenient that once again it turns out that the problem isn't us - and the fix is something that doesn't require us to change our behavior or spend any money.

It's so simple. Fire the bad teachers. Hire good ones... from some 'undisclosed location'. And hey, while we're at it, let's cut taxes more. It's the kind of comprehensive educational solution that could only come from a completely ignorant people. Yes, firing all the teachers may feel good -- we're Americans - kicking people when they're down is what we do... but it's not really their fault.

Now undeniably there are some really bad teachers out there. They don't know the material. They don't make things interesting. They have sex with the same student every day... instead of spreading the love around.

But every school has crappy teachers. Harvard has crappy teachers. They must. They gave us George Bush.

But according to all the studies, it doesn't matter what teachers do (although everyone appreciates foreplay). What matters is what PARENTS do. The number one predictor of a child's academic success is parental involvement. It doesn't even matter if your child goes to private or public school. So save the 20 grand a year and treat yourself to a nice vacation away from the little bastards!

It's been proven that just having books in the house makes a huge difference in a child's development. If your home is adorned with nothing but Hummel dolls, DVD's and bleeding Jesus-es - CONGRATULATIONS! You're just given your children the gift of 'Duh'.

Sarah Palin said recently that she wrote on her hand because her father used to do it. I rest my case.

So, when there are no books in the house. And there are no parents in the house. You know who raises the kids? You're watching it now. So maybe the problem isn't the teachers. Maybe it's the Nannies.





The one obvious thing they forget to mention......all of these 'improvements' they have done to education has not netted better results. Lawmakers want unfunded mandates so they can look good. Education administrators want test results so they can justify their jobs. Parents dump their unprepared students on the schools doorstep because they don't want to do the work. Teachers are forced to teach the test to an ever growing number of students. Teaching to a test is a joyless task that bores young minds and numbs teacher's soul.

This media run up (similar to the run up to the Iraq war) is nothing more than an attempt to bust teacher's unions (which are not all that powerful to begin with) and allow business to gain a larger share of the education budget pie. It is a way to re segregate the school system (try having a special needs kid and get into some of these schools). Education use to be the uniting factor in our culture-they are managing to make it divisive.

I feel so sorry for you that you are so gullible as to believe that bunk that Duncan and Obama has been spewing. But I don't blame you-I was gullible enough to believe in Obama as was the AFT.

[October]

56. You support firing the parents?

Really?

Then, I will NEVER stand with you.

Where were all the teachers and their unions when other industries underwent deregulation, outsourcing, layoffs, wage cuts, B-salary scales, drug testing, etc.? Rhetorical.

I'm sorry you've been taught to teach to the test. I think it has destroyed your profession -- but as a parent, I am sick to death of the superiority attitude of teachers. Parents supported your profession when few others did -- and you've turned on us.

[Catshrink]

61. We have turned on the parents who don't do their jobs.

It isn't all parents. It's the parents I call who laugh about their kids' behavior or lack of effort that concern us.

Funny, I didn't hear you speaking up when teachers are getting bashed. Now do you understand how it feels? We should be partners in educating children. Pointing out the deficiencies of some parents rankles you? The implication that all parents are bad because of the "few" who are? Don't like it? Well, now you know how the Obama-Duncan methods are playing with teachers. Doesn't feel so good does it?

[AnneD]

70. Two...

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Catshrink. For the school Nurse-it is even worse. Try helping the 14 yo student that comes into your office that has had a diagnosed STD for 3 weeks but Mom hasn't gotten the medication. When you call Mom to talk to her about her daughter's STD and pregnancy-she says she is too busy to take a meeting but could you tell everything to the student's aunt. I SWEAR THIS IS TRUE AS GOD IS MY WITTINESS. Now, if parents are too busy to take a meeting with the Nurse over this, I guess it is nearly impossible to get them to come in to talk about homework, behaviour, or grades.

These students are kicked out of these charter schools and end up in public school because we have to take everyone. I know because I register several of these kids per week. When charter schools have the same accountability and take all comers AND produce better results-I'll shut my mouth and be a believer.

[Catshrink]

82. And three

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: and a :toast: back at ya. I've been saying that what we see in schools are symptoms of what's going on in society writ large. You point out a perfect example of that.

[Tansy_Gold]

83. Two more. . . .to both of you

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[readmoreoften]

28. That doesn't make any sense. Without healthy, well-compensated teachers, the students can't win.

When teachers earn $10 an hour and are subjected to absurd work conditions, that means THE STUDENTS LOSE. The American educational system is a mess because American is a mess. And busting the teacher's union isn't going to help.

[AnneD]

36. What message about the value of education does that send...

to kids. Teachers treated like dirt, fired, paid crap when they can get a job.

We already have the political system we deserve,we are soon to get the educational system we deserve.

[rucky]

45. This is Shock Doctrine

The people with the solution - for profit charter schools - are the same ones who've been wrecking the system.

Follow the money, and check out who's investing in charter schools.

Google Abramoff + charter school
Google Norquist + charter school
Google Neil Bush + charter school (+ Katrina for bonus points)

[Fire1]

48. That's just for starters. n/t

[Fire1]

50. I think you're too il-informed to be on ANY side of this issue,

frankly.

[Riley18]

54. If by definition you are for students then you have to be for teachers

and their unions. The FEA and NEA play a large role in continuing education for teachers. I have attended some of the best workshops at my local union office. Anyone can teach to a test, but it takes a caring professional teacher to make a difference in the life of a child. Please do not allow politicians with their own agenda (to get richer) to take the focus on what really is a stake here. How can we raise children who understand the importance of freedom if we do not teach them? If the educational system really was a "broken" as they say it is then we would have much larger Teabagger rallies.

[ncteechur]

57. not if the teachers and unions stand in the way of what is best for kids and sometimes it seems that

way

[ecstatic]

68. Who knew siding with students first would be so controversial?

:shrug: I never attacked teachers, just said students should come first THEN we can figure out how to reward good teachers.

And where was all this outrage when schools continued to fail decade after decade?

[Fire1]

69. We've all been saying and complaining for decades, too, and

along comes Bush with NCLB, as the 'answer,' which only made a bad situation worse! We've all agreed there needed to be changes but not in a business format.

[anonymous171]

73. Where was all this interest in reforming education when they were cutting education funding?

[anonymous171]

71. His plan won't work but it will create a lobby that will make sure that legislators think it does. n

[anonymous171]

72. dupe. nt

[Orlandodem]

74. I teach high school. I will not be held accountable for the students who....

....have no desire at all to learn.
....work all night and sleep through class.
....refuse to do their homework although it reinforces what I'm trying to teach
....are insubordinate and disrupt my class
....skip school on a regular basis.

Period. End of story.

I work hard for other peoples' kids sometimes to the detriment of my own. I am a parent and I want a good education for my children but I work with my kids' teachers by sending them to school ready and willing to learn.

[Catshrink]

75. I'm with you on this.

add

.... text their friends in class instead of paying attention
.... copy other students' homework instead of doing it themselves
.... cheat

[Fire1]

80. HELL YEAH!!!!

:applause: :applause:

[LWolf]

77. Then this should please you:

no one wants the system reformed more than the educators who are limited by it. We know, better than anyone else, what works and what doesn't; what students need, what the system needs, what teachers need, to make the system a thriving, vibrant success.

Not that anyone asks, or listens when we offer suggestions.

Those standing in the way of that goal include politicians, and include of the general public, who have bought in to the decades-long anti-education propaganda begun in the Reagan era.

Please. Fire them all and give us some at the top who will work with us to create positive, authentic reform.

A good start would be a Secretary of Education who is actually an educator, who will reach out to educators across the nation and work with us. Even better would be an executive who would appoint and support such an educator.

[ljm2002]

79. Sooo, do you stand with the students...

...who stand with the teachers who were fired?

[Dinger]

81. K & R

Clear and concise. Thank you!