Why Obama stopped talking about values and health care reform

[eridani]

He didn't have much choice, because the fundamental values underlying current "reform" are the vilest and most despicable our culture has to offer. No other developed country, even those working through regulated private insurance, has more that ONE basic comprehensive plan. True, supplemental plans are available for those who want more, but the fundamental underlying value iw that everyone is entitled to a basic comprehensive level of care.

Contrast the "exchange," with multiple levels of plans, the lowest level only paying 60% of health care costs. That is the only one eligible for subsidy. The underlying value is that people have no inherent worth at all--the only health care they deserve is what they can pay for. If you don't have the money to pay for higher levels of coverage, you are worth less as a human being. People are nothing, and sick people don't deserve care if it interferes with insurance companies' use of them to make a buck.

[WCGreen]

1. Highly recommended!

[Skittles]

2. his magic words no longer work magic

[eridani]

3. He talked values during his campaign--that's why his words were magic

Talking about "bending the cost curve" is uninspiring wonkery worthy of Dukakis.

Obama called us all to participatory citizenship, but when 82% of the citizens want a public option, they get totally blown off.

[Skittles]

4. disclosure: his words never were magic to me

Obama gives great speeches but I never fell for it

[Sherman A1]

7. Agreed

He gives great speeches and I did hope that perhaps we might get a few more crumbs this time, but I knew that he was far too conservative for my tastes, given the alternatives of The Democratic Party (which looks a whole lot like the GOP of the past) or the Republicans (who have lost all touch with any reality beyond greed and are pretty much just completely nuts), I voted for the Democrats. This November even with an open Senate seat and a close race here in Missouri, I am thinking of just skipping it.....I am tired of the lies and don't see my vote makes much difference beyond how quickly I will get screwed. Once the rich have all the money, then they win and I guess we can simply go off into the woods and be eaten by the bears (if there are any of them left).

[emilyg]

12. Correct.

[emilyg]

13. Correct.

[Lorien]

16. +1. They didn't work on anyone who was actually listening to the content. nt

[bigwillq]

19. I have to agree with you.

He is a politician after all. Nothing really more. Nothing really less. Just packaged a bit more fan-friendly, I guess.

[Forkboy]

24. +1

[Individualist]

26. +1

[LWolf]

33. Agreed. I was never inspired.

Maybe because I paid attention to the content. :shrug:

[bkozumplik]

34. oh come on

I dont remember many commenter's handles, but I remember yours, because you were always a to the hilt supporter of Obama, no matter the facts, no matter what.

[Bluebear]

54. You are mistaken, I do assure you

[Skittles]

58. he REALLY needs to be assured, PT

me - an Obamabot :rofl:

[Skittles]

57. you have mistaken me for someone else, bko

I am not now, nor have I ever been, an Obamabot

[ProgressIn2008]

35. Heh. I didn't even think they were great speeches. Every calculated turn of speechwriter phrase

uninspired me more.

OTOH, I'm an incorrigible contrarian, so I'm not one to go by. I've got the iconoclastic fever, every time I see an icon.

[Skittles]

59. I thought they were great in the sense that

they would fool a lot of peope; no, they did not work on me either

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[upi402]

5. Working fool is the term

Scam and scheme, use and abuse; Highly valued attributes in anti-values corporate America.

[Oregone]

6. "the lowest level only paying 60% of health care costs"

Can you point me to anywhere that it sets the minimum actuarial level to 60%?

I agree quite a bit with where you are coming from. Egalitarianism was never true a component to this health care reform. So many of the measures are about how to make a for-profit capitalistic system "work" for the people and just how much excess to allow (which the people ultimately have to pay for). Its outrageous that this was the foundation the "liberal" party built health reform upon.

[FrenchieCat]

8. never mind.

[lwcon]

10. K&R! n/t

[GeorgeGist]

11. Because he's playing chess ...

in a bowling alley.

[Unvanguard]

15. That's actually a good description.

Rather better than the other chess analogies going around.

[bvar22]

21. Chess...

The game where The Pawns are sacrificed to protect The Royalty.
.
.
.
Why, YES!
Obama IS playing Chess.
.
.
.
Really sucks when you're a Pawn without Health Insurance.

[awoke_in_2003]

28. Ding ding ding...

we have a winner. That is the best description I have heard of a politician (I know, 98% of them give the rest a bad name :) )

[leftstreet]

44. Yep!

[Art_from_Ark]

50. The pawns can get rooked by rooks,

trampled by horsemen, slain by crooked bishops, and crumpled by a queen while they are trying to protect their king, who's essentially just a big leech who doesn't do much that's worthwhile.

[inna]

14. Exactly.

BTW, currently employer-based plans have actuarial value of 80-85% on average.

As a result of the proposed Health Care Deform, the employer-sponsored coverage will inevitably worsen and decrease to 60-70% from the current 80-85%, and significant number (if not the majority) of employers will drop coverage altogether thanks to the extremely weak/nonexistent employer mandate in the Senate/Obama's bill. 60% will become a new standard.


BTW, another little known "purpose" of the HCD is the shift from employer-based coverage to "individual responsibility" (i.e., making our already horrible health care system even worse). Great financial burden will be placed disproportionately on the working/middle class, who will see their currently employer-provided benefits weaken/erode/dropped altogether but who will be ineligible for subsidies. This shift to "individual responsibility" and further stratification of health care based on income is not a bug, it's a FEATURE of the Senate/Obama's plan.

Add to that another "purpose" of the HCD - weakening of/de-funding a public/government-administered program (i.e., Medicare to the tune of $500 billion over a decade - just at the time when dozens of millions of boomers will start entering the system). What you get is: 1) direct funneling of public money and 2) fleecing the individuals and families via the odious "mandates" - the result is a massive upward transfer of wealth (Wall Street bailout style) to a parasitic and rapacious for-profit industry.

[DiverDave]

17. We were LIED TO!

He said what we wanted to hear, but the strings from the corporations were pulling his mouth.
We will NEVER get a true "for the people, by the people" government until we have public financing of our elections.
NEVER.

We ate it up, admit it, we are fucked.
Money trumps everything.

[Edweird]

18. 60% of heart surgery or cancer = bankruptcy. 60% = no affordable care. K&R

[awoke_in_2003]

29. I have insurance at work...

and if I needed heart surgery or cancer treatments I would off myself. My life insurance policies don't have a suicide clause, and it is easy enough to make it look accidental. So, the choice is leaving my wife bankrupt and homeless or leaving her some money and a house that is paid for- well the choice is pretty easy.

[Edweird]

31. Sadly, that is also my worst case scenario outcome.

I'm 39 with no real family, no kids and estranged wife 2,000 miles away. I'm considering a move to another country with better services.

[awoke_in_2003]

37. Wish I had that option...

need good coin to emigrate, and what married man these days can save up that kind of money. If I were in your shoes, I would be looking at the Netherlands.

[misanthrope]

41. You're a fool if you don't immigrate immediately...

...Your window of opportunity is never going to be better and will close fast once you reach 40. Go and don't look back.

[Edweird]

56. I have to wait until I'm 40 actually.

In December I receive a license in my career that will allow me to emigrate. Any attempt before then would be pointless and counter-productive. Besides, the cutoff for Australia (where there is a ton of work in field) and Canada is mid 40's. I'm good. I'll *just* make it.

[quakerboy]

39. On the one hand yes

On the other, my understanding is that there is also an annual out of pocket cap. So theoretically, it could leave you just a hop and a jump closer to bankruptcy, while still providing the illusion that you can get out of it and thus disinclining people from taking the "easy" way out, and just working that extra shift the next 10 years to try and break even.

[ecstatic]

49. (Sigh) I think the max out of pocket floated was around 5k...

Honest people will acknowledge there is a HUGE difference between paying a 5k deductible versus having no insurance at all with $50,000+++ in expenses.

[quakerboy]

51. Way to confuse honesty and cynicism

A 50k+++ bill, and you go into bankruptcy and walk away with bad credit and no debt. A 5k credit line and you lose the next 10 years of your life struggling to make payments that seem to vanish into the void.

This is a simplification, to be sure. And it does sound nice to have a 5k cap rather than my current uninsured infinte potential debt situation. But I have a hard time with the math of it. My understanding is it is annual. And a lot of big medical issues are ongoing. Which means they could easily bleed away 5k each year for multiple years, which begins to add up, particularly since thats after paying the premium itself. Add it all up, and I really do wonder if, personally, I wouldn't be better off without insurance, and going the bankruptcy route if anything does occur.

In the mean time, I do not see anything in this bill which will help anyone I know, from my aunt on SSDI to my MIL on unemployment to my barely making it house underwater uncle to my retired from the government and doing fine parents. I have a hard time being enthusiastic about something that does not seem to me to have any effective cost containment measures, which hurts me personally, and which does not seem to help anyone that I am aware of. I would be one of the millions of newly insured persons, but it seems an empty "improvement. I do not see that I could afford to use the policy after I squeezed myself to pay for it, any more than I can afford to go see a DR right now without a policy.

[ecstatic]

48. Isn't there a max out of pocket nt

[eridani]

52. +1000

Plenty of medical bankruptcies happen to people with "good" insurance, and now the standard is going to get a lot lower.

[SlingBlade]

20. Why ? Because he offers neither. He is a Shill for Corporate America

[The Hope Mobile]

23. Yup! nt

[bvar22]

22. Brand Obama...

Brand Obama/Hope&Change was a very successful Corporate Marketing Scam.
Nothing more.

[ProSense]

25. " paying 60% of health care costs...the only one eligible for subsidy." absolutely false.

The subsidies are tied to the silver level at 70%. And as the specified here

• Specific subsidies for cost sharing and what people might pay out-of-pocket for deductibles and coinsurance are not illustrated on the calculator.
  
  
• In many cases coverage will be more comprehensive and accessible than what is typically available today in the non-group market, so premiums cannot easily be compared to what people buying insurance on their own are now paying.
  
  
• The calculator does not apply to people with coverage available through an employer, where the firm is generally paying for a substantial portion of the insurance premium.

more

[quakerboy]

40. I noticed that too, which was at odds with all the reading I have done

It is based on the silver, 70% plan. You are correct.

That still leaves unanswered the question of how many of us can afford to pay the remaining 30% of a major procedure. I feel pretty certain that, particularly after paying the premium, it will be pretty much the same or perhaps even a few more than cannot afford to pay 100% now.

[eridani]

53. The 60% was in the original Senat bill, and it remains to be seen what will be passed n/t

[eridani]

55. The OP asked the question "Why in FUCKING GODDAM HELL

--is there any more than one level anyway?" And your answer is some ridiculous chart that would make Dukakis proud. When Dems talk technocratic horseshit instead of values, we lose.

[branders seine]

27. he had to stop.

he has none of the former and believes in nothing of the latter.

[DisgustedInMN]

30. K & R

[LWolf]

32. K & R nt

[FDR_Democrat]

36. This is about creating the "Health Care Economy"

Our economy needs an engine, and part of that engine is going to be health care. Welcome to "Medical Savings Accounts" to pay the ever increasing gap between what the insurance company pays, and what you have to pay. Meanwhile, as your money sits in the bank, Wall Street can then use your money for their purposes to make them rich. This is also going to create a vast new "Investment" market in all things medical, not just insurance. More cash for the Wall Street boys to use to get even richer.

Most here say Obama is selling out to the health insurance industry - but that's only partially true. Obama is Wall Street's Bitch, and ultimately everything he does will continue the transfer of wealth from Main Street to Wall Street.

During Dubya's final years he was just dying to privatize Social Security and was the first person I heard use the term Medical Savings Account. The players have changed, but the forces of government are doing the bidding of the ruling class, and it's not going to do too much for the American middle class.

This is what Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, and the Millionaire's Club known as the United States Senate value.

[leftstreet]

42. [phone]

:applause:

Welcome to DU!

[CoffeeCat]

43. I would rather all of this happen...

...with a Republican president. I really wish McCain had won. I know
things would be much worse, but we're headed toward the same, sick
direction--no matter what party is in power.

It's too gut-wrenching when a "Democrat" plays these games.

I expect this from Bush and other Republicans. At least with them, I don't feel betrayed.

[defendandprotect]

47. Until we start calling campain funds BRIBERY and make it stick . . .

this is what we are going to get --

Meanwhile, the Democrats are not either moving to reregulate capitalism leaving

us open to more bankrupting of the Treasury --

The right wing has risen on violence -- that's the only way they can rise!!

Political violence, assassinations, stolen elections --

Yeah, we're living with the Vichy-Democrats and we need a Plan B -- let's work on it!!

[defendandprotect]

46. Wait until the GOP gets ahold of this system . ..!!!

Up with corporate profit --

and more citizens thrown to the insurance wolves!!

[provis99]

38. well, the DLC corporatedems on this board love the insurance companies.

The paid insurance company shills seem to be working overtime at DU and other liberal blog sites on the internet, these days.

[defendandprotect]

45. You're the first one discussing EQUALITY in the health care . . .

this is a class based system -- even INCOME weighed!!!

Disgusting!!!

"High risk poor" -- !!!

This is a TIERED system --

What we need is for every citizen -- every American -- to be treated equally . . .

and none of this should be based on INCOME!!!

UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, EVEYRONE IN, NO ONE OUT --- NOW!!! Not years from now!!