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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 10:21 AM
Original message
“This is Starting to Get Dangerous”-Petraeus briefing-Biden’s embarrassment is not the whole story
Edited on Mon Mar-15-10 10:24 AM by kpete
“This is Starting to Get Dangerous”

By Scott Horton

Last week, Vice President Joe Biden was publicly slapped in the face by the Netanyahu Government during his trip to Jerusalem. The Israeli Government used the occasion to announce the settlement of 1,600 Israelis in Arab East Jerusalem, in defiance of America’s calls for a freeze on settlements. According to a report in Yedioth Ahronoth, Biden responded: “This is starting to get dangerous for us. What you’re doing here undermines the security of our troops who are fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. That endangers us and it endangers regional peace.
http://harpers.org/archive/2010/03/hbc-90006710

Now in a fascinating briefing note at Foreign Policy, Mark Perry gives us a clearer sense of what Biden was thinking:

The Petraeus briefing: Biden’s embarrassment is not the whole story
Posted By Mark Perry Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 11:05 PM
http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/03/14/the_petraeus_briefing_biden_s_embarrassment_is_not_the_whole_story

On Jan. 16… a team of senior military officers from the U.S. Central Command (responsible for overseeing American security interests in the Middle East), arrived at the Pentagon to brief Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Adm. Michael Mullen on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The team had been dispatched by CENTCOM commander Gen. David Petraeus to underline his growing worries at the lack of progress in resolving the issue. The 33-slide, 45-minute PowerPoint briefing stunned Mullen. The briefers reported that there was a growing perception among Arab leaders that the U.S. was incapable of standing up to Israel, that CENTCOM’s mostly Arab constituency was losing faith in American promises, that Israeli intransigence on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was jeopardizing U.S. standing in the region, and that Mitchell himself was (as a senior Pentagon officer later bluntly described it) “too old, too slow … and too late.”

The January Mullen briefing was unprecedented. No previous CENTCOM commander had ever expressed himself on what is essentially a political issue; which is why the briefers were careful to tell Mullen that their conclusions followed from a December 2009 tour of the region where, on Petraeus’s instructions, they spoke to senior Arab leaders. “Everywhere they went, the message was pretty humbling,” a Pentagon officer familiar with the briefing says. “America was not only viewed as weak, but its military posture in the region was eroding.” But Petraeus wasn’t finished: two days after the Mullen briefing, Petraeus sent a paper to the White House requesting that the West Bank and Gaza (which, with Israel, is a part of the European Command — or EUCOM), be made a part of his area of operations. Petraeus’s reason was straightforward: with U.S. troops deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, the U.S. military had to be perceived by Arab leaders as engaged in the region’s most troublesome conflict.

Perry goes on to say that the briefing “hit the White House like a bombshell.” There’s no doubt that this is what inspired Biden’s comments. Indeed, this was plain from the Yedioth Ahronoth report, which went on, after quoting Biden, to state: “The vice president told his Israeli hosts that since many people in the Muslim world perceived a connection between Israel’s actions and US policy, any decision about construction that undermines Palestinian rights in East Jerusalem could have an impact on the personal safety of American troops fighting against Islamic terrorism.”

The Netanyahu Government and its supporters in the United States want the controversies relating to Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip to be dealt with alone, detached from any impact they could have on the broader region and the interests the United States is pursuing there with its troop placement in two different theaters. That in fact reflects the way most American media report on these developments. But this approach is foolish, for reasons that the Petraeus briefing makes clear. Perry sees this as a struggle between two “lobbies,” namely the Israel lobby and the U.S. military. The Israel lobby is very powerful, he says, but how can it compete with the U.S. military asserting the imperative interest in the security of U.S. troops? The Netanyahu Government’s recent dealings reflect contempt for the Obama Administration and indifference at best for its position in the Middle East. These steps seem perfectly coordinated with neoconservatives in the United States, as shown in the “apology” offered on their behalf by Washington Post editorial writer Jackson Diehl (“Biden flunked,” he concludes, applying typically obtuse reasoning). The question is whether a close ally can throw juvenile tantrums and abuse its protector indefinitely without consequences. So far the answer appears to be: yes it can.


Perry’s column is an essential read. I’m halfway through his new book, Talking with Terrorists, and expect to have a discussion of the book in the form of an interview with Perry up before the end of the month.



(kpete: I see the Cheneys all over this - remember Netanyahu is an original neoconservative!)
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. The simplest way to stop the settlements is for the US to immediately stop sending our tax dollars..
..over there..

That would change NetandYahoo's tone right quick..

Of course, no-one in D.C. has the stones to do that..
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vssmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Agreed
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. YEP
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. +1000!
Let's put the $$$ we fork over to Israel to work here on healthcare and education!
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Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. Precisely
Money talks and ............
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. Exactly! And no more U.S. made weapons either.
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
40. And stop the Religious and other Groups from sending money there also.
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rambler_american Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
58. +1 n/t
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
59. + Graham's Number
:thumbsup:
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
82. Bingo. But the bible beaters will never agree to that, because they
believe support for Israel fits into the whole end times scenario.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
98. I can get behind this reply
+1
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
103. so true! n/t
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. thanks for the OP
:toast:
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
3. This tells me that Petraeus is not interested in the GOP presidential nomination
Given their Likud way or the highway approach.
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kiranon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
42. If true, not good for the military to be so involved in politics/policy.
If I were President Obama, it would be time to retire this general or post him to the UN - same difference.
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
4. Those are two peas in a pod
The same look; one eye squinting, one corner of the mouth turned up in an arrogant sneer.

Darth Vader and NuttyYahoo. Evil just drips from that picture.
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. Mooks. They come across as low-life Mooks.
In very nice suits.
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. Same old bastards...
still fucking up the world..
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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
7. So what should Obama do?
Edited on Mon Mar-15-10 10:43 AM by Winterblues
Should he exert US Military might to expel notions that the USA is weak or should we just get the Hell out of there and cut our losses? I suspect Obama being such a weak leader, he will want to try and impress conservatives with his bluster so we will do something militarily which will inevitably prove to be the opposite approach of what should be done.
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jdlh8894 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Tend to agree w/your assessment
Pres. Obama at this point in time is caught between "a rock and a hard place"in foreign AND domestic affairs.
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MsLeopard Donating Member (717 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. If he's true to form
he'll do whatever his corporate masters tell him to do.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. Anything but nothing. (nt)
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
46. Pure BS
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #7
49. obviously, he should stand up to Israel
by cutting off the billions in aid we give them and using that money to do something productive.

It's not just the fact that they announced the settlements in a deliberate blow-off to VP Biden.

It's the fact that they're fucking building them. Israel IS the impediment to middle east peace. With friends like them, who the fuck needs enemies? We've kissed up to those back-stabbing, war-loving, murdering bastards for too fucking long.

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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
8. This article makes more convinced that the military already rules or is about to rule the US.
This article says to me that the military (brass, that is) is all powerful in this nation. It means they report direct to the barons.
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O is 44 Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Looks like he Israel lobby is more powerful...
Where was the pathetic US media last week when our VP was being disrespected? Obama can't get tough on Israel because he knows the pathetic congress would not support him in cutting off the funds. sickening. Yes and I do believe Cheney and his traitorous ilk is behind this.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
10. K&R
n/t
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
12. Bibi smackdowns tend to leave a mark.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
13. Fascinating.........and appalling.
K&R

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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
15. For what it's worth, Israel says they're sorry . . . about the timing
Not, of course, about anything they're doing. But they're sorry for any embarrassment caused to VP Biden. Memo to Bibi: It's not like you ripped one off after a big meal of steamed cabbage and broccoli; you're turning up the heat on a pot that's already starting to boil. Of course, America will send its money, sons and daughters off to defend our good friends in Israel while they continue to fling lit matches at a pile of gunpowder.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #15
84. LOL. Sure they are.
The embarrassment to Biden was deliberate, and they aren't in the least sorry. He had to be punished for daring to speak the obvious.
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ChicagoSuz219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
17. Ever wonder why conservatives love Israeli Jews to pieces...
...& American Jews not so much?

I'm just sayin'...

:shrug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. They don't
they hate the Israeli government's occupation policies. And they hate the settlements that make peace ever less likely.
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ChicagoSuz219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Who hates Israel?
I love Israel. I lived there for a few months years ago. It was beautiful. Right up until the cease-fire agreement wasn't renewed... then, it was scary as hell.

I have cousins who live there. My daughter plans to go this summer. I don't want them to be afraid to get on a bus or sit in a cafe.

I don't understand the mind-set that opts decades of war, instead of searches for a peaceful solution.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #24
53. Ever think the other side had something to do with it?
That maybe being attacked since '48 had something to do with it?

Oh, forget it. It's all Israel's fault. :eyes:
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ChicagoSuz219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #53
61. Each side blaming the other is not the road to peace...
Pulling a stunt like they did at that time was counter-productive.

I would like to see peace in the Middle East, wouldn't you?
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #61
68. Yeah, I would.
Peace between equals. Not a peace were Israel shoulders all the blame or responsibility. Because a peace like that won't last.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #61
85. Peace will come.
After Israel has completed the ethnic cleansing of Greater Israel.

Not before.

That's what happens when you think God has given you the right to "Manifest Destiny", whether it is here or there. How many treaties with the Native Americans did we break before we finally had them all subjugated and out of the way on reservations or assimilated? A hundred? Israel hasn't broken nearly so many "peace accords" with the Palestinians yet.

But they will.
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warm regards Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #85
97. Actually, it is the Palestinians who have a record of violating peace accords.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #97
101. Shhh!
DU doesn't want to hear that.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #85
102. Not really.
If it was about "Greater Israel" then Israel never would withdrawn from Gaza.

You've been indoctrinated.
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FarrenH Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #53
62. No matter how many times that argument is repeated its fallacious
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 07:05 AM by FarrenH
Israel was attacked by states, not an ethnic group. While the people being oppressed may be related to citizens of the states that attacked Israel, they do not represent the states that attacked Israel. They are not morally responsible for the decisions of governments of the states that attacked Israel. Furthermore, even if some of them, or their ancestors, or contemporaries, are or were involved in unjustified attacks against Israel, it is universally accepted that collective punishment or punishment for the sins of the fathers is wrong. Above and beyond this, some aggression on the part of native Palestinians has always been legitimate resistance to (documented, verifiable) efforts at expelling Arabs by early Zionists for the sole purpose of ensuring a Jewish majority.

No matter how much you try to conflate "Palestinians under occupation" with "Historical unjustified aggressors against Israel" they are not, logically or morally, the same. Furthermore, conflating them thus is no different from conflating "Idi Amin's Uganda" with "Blacks", and anyone with half a brain can see that the logic employed to conflate them thus is essentially racist in nature.

Racist arguments in support of apartheid. Who would'a thunk?
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #62
69. Racist?
Weak.

Palestinians are the ones who attack Israel. I'm not saying anything racist. I just think people around here need to acknowledge that the cycles of violence aren't generated by Israel.

Collective punishment? Aren't hamas rockets and suicide bombers collective punishment against Israelis?

Apartheid would be a good point if that was what was going on.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #69
74. by pushing settlements into gaza the israelis are throwing gasoline on a bad situation
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #74
89. There are no settlements in Gaza.
The Israelis pulled them all out and got nothing but rocket attacks for their efforts.

The settlements in the WB need to be pulled out too but what happens when the attacks commerce from there?
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FarrenH Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #69
91. Yes, racist
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 02:51 PM by FarrenH
If a black guy robbed my folks place and I endorsed herding all black people into bantustans because of that one black guy, no-one would say I'm not being racist. When someone proffers the simpletons logic that, say Egypt amasses troops to invade a young country, so native Palestinians should be kept in bantustans and denied rights enumerated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, for 40 years, then there is absolutely no doubt that their argument is racist. And that is implicit in the statement "That maybe being attacked since '48 had something to do with it?"

"Oh no," you might disingeniously claim. "I meant only native Palestinians". To which I will say "Bullshit", and find half a dozen threads where you have elaborated sufficiently on this point to clearly show you routinely conflate all historical actions against Israel by all Arabs, be they individuals or state actors, into a single issue, without even thinking about it, then justify Israeli imposition of Apartheid on Palestinians on that basis.

Of course, even if you were to restrict your bullshit arguments to native Palestinians only, your refusal to acknowledge that the Palestinians have legitimate grievances which justify some form of resistance would still be racist. It is a fact of history that Palestinians were deliberately displaced to make way for Jewish colonists, under the cover of the very racist justifications (involving state actors) described in the preceding paragraph. It is a fact of history that prominent Zionists such as Ben-Gurion are on record as describing intentions to effect such displacement, under cover of war, as a means to achieving a larger predominantly Jewish state with a diminished Arab population.

And it is both a historical fact and a present fact that Israel has been and is constantly expanding its own civilian population into land already occupied by another people, while denying those selfsame people any say over the issue. To paint this last program of creeping colonialism as a security measure is an insult to the intelligence of your readers. It is naked colonialism, implicitly for the benefit of a single ethnic group, regardless of whether you proffer the existence of an minority Israeli Arab population or not - since Israel is by the statements of generation after generation of own leaders a homeland for Jews, with a minority Arab population enjoying citizenship as a matter of political inconvenience. Of course, even that citizenship in practical terms does not amount to equal treatment, which has led to the defensible charge of two-tier Apartheid. Beauracratic discrimination against Israeli Palestinians and full blown Apartheid for Palestinians in the Occupied Territory/Territory under permanent siege.

Since these intentions preceded the foundation of the state of Israel and their execution overlapped it and have continued to the present day, it is simply false to claim Israeli aggression is only the product of resistance, however brutal that resistance is, and nothing else.

Most right thinking people call holocaust deniers racist. I call Nakba deniers, colonialism deniers and Apartheid deniers racist. Your position is racist.

(edit to add)
What's especially telling, Proteus, is that you and one or two posters like you have defended every action by Israel on these grounds even when Israel has the most right wing government in its history, with govt ministers routinely making comments that would be regarded as far right crypto-racism in American politics, if you simply substituted "White" for "Jewish" and "Immigrants" for "Palestinians". In effect you and a few others have routinely made excuses for and endorsed the politics of Israeli equivalents of David Duke. And this last association leaves little doubt that your modus operandi and reasoning should be regarded in the same light as similar endorsements by David Duke supporters.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #91
96. Accusing of me of racism doesn't help your argument.
The Palestinians should declare a state and Israel should pull the settlements out of the WB. (I'm on record for saying that. Kind of puts the kibosh on "you support everything Israel does" meme you have going on.)

Your shrill taunts of racism have no effect on me.
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FarrenH Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #96
100. I apologise for the false charge that you support every policy,
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 08:36 PM by FarrenH
including expansion of the settlements, a quick search proved me wrong and for that I unreservedly apologise. I had you confused with another poster.

But you do have a consistent pattern of countering every accusation of Israeli bad faith, refusal to come to the negotiating table with fair terms and and expansionism being the main source of conflict by implying moral equivalence with the actions of an oppressed people, and conflating forty year old wars with Palestinian resistance to make the claim that Israel has been under (by implication) unjust attack for its entire existence. Casting aside for a moment the distinctions between "resistance", "attack" and "threat" with the clear understanding that the main "threat" to Israel has been being eaten from within by the unsustainable moral corruption of its policies: I'm sorry, but after 40 years of an occupation that walks, talks and acts like Apartheid, the savagery of the oppressed cannot be a factor in any right-thinking person's evaluation of the savagery of the oppressor.

As a South African such efforts to portray a kind of faux-balance of responsibility disgusts me. I can see no difference between such arguments and arguments to hold off the dismantling of South African Apartheid until the "necklacings", attacks on white nuns, attacks on white American aid workers, bombing of civilian bars frequented by the security establishment et al had stopped, at a time when rage against Apartheid was fueling ever more savage opposition and surrounding countries such as Angola and Zimbabwe allowed their countries to be used as springboards for attacks on the Apartheid state. I have seen this logic at work. By the mid-80's the Apartheid government's primary argument against dismantling the Apartheid state was "security" not "separate development", with a widespread belief in the White community that the end of Apartheid would entail the genocide of whites and the establishment of a totalitarian communist state. Ring any bells? People like Shira regularly make this claim and everything from the type of language used to the simple inability to grasp that their hysterical fears coupled with counterfactual speculation do not constitute compelling argument, reminds me so much of the racists who were a majority in my community growing up.

No! In the midst of the most violent period of uprising in South Africa, when the townships were on fire and the white government had gone to the previously undreamed of extent of beginning to curtail white freedoms (freedom of the press being the first) to silence dissent from the white left as well as massively expanding the security establishment, my stance as a white left-liberal, and that of most principled South Africans, was "No conditions. Full rights and self determination for the black majority in their own land. That is justice. That must precede any demand for concessions from the liberation movements." So I have absolutely fuck all sympathy for racist Jewish ethnic nationalists in Israel who have voted in the most right wing government in history to expand the existing program of land theft and oppression for the primary advantage of a single ethnic group. I no more "appreciate" the "subtleties" of the conflict and their "legitimate" fears than I did the paranoid racist fucks in my own community who went to the extent of building bunkers and stocking up on ten years worth of canned supplies when it became apparent we would soon have a black government. I regard bizarre claims that the state of Israel has made generous offers at any point in the past with disbelief when I examine the factual record and find that EVERY SINGLE offer entailed "We'll give you back a fraction of what we stole because, you know, we should keep the balance for security reasons and hurt feelings".

Now, as then, we are talking about racists and racism. Racists on two fronts. The first their certainty that Hamas, an a recently empowered organisation that was at some point nurtured by the Israeli military in the hope that it would counter the PLO and other secular organisations that embraced Muslim and Christian Palestinians alike, is somehow the "real" and inevitable face of Palestinian attitudes, that Palestinians to the last one are murderous antisemites who's primary motivation is not liberty but the genocide of Jews and destruction of civilisation. And the second, for a significant part of the oppressing population, the belief that the folk tales of a millienia old book and persecution in the hands of entirely different people give them the right to steal land and resources for the primary benefit of a single ethnic group. How in God's name is that not racist? One the one hand, certainty of the eternal perfidity and inevitable barbarism of the "other", with no acknowledgement of ones role in fostering any such appearance. And on the other a religious/ethnic mythology-inspired belief in the God-given right of your ethnic group to an already occupied patch of land.

The world lost patience with South Africa and in some corners not without considerable reluctance. In the late sixties the anti-Apartheid movement was a tiny force and South African currency was still welcome everywhere. In the eighties, even Ronald Reagan actually resisted sanctions for a time and Reagan's administration secretly assisted South Africa in the destabilisation of frontline states with socialist governments. When sanctions did take hold they worked and the Apartheid state was close to bankrupcy when FW De Klerk unbanned the ANC and began talks about a new dispensation.

So I have seen how oppression in the name of security creates and sustains its own monsters (an Israeli general is on record as saying Israel actually nurtured Hamas at one point to weaken the PLO), then uses them to justify further oppression. I have seen how supposed standard-bearers of democracy like the USA, which in my lifetime I have come to realise has done far less to nurture democracy and rights than Europe, can wilfully sustain unjust regimes, how your press decieves, obfuscates and clouds issues to pander to the half of America that is pig-ignorant (and I say that with the greatest love and respect for the other half, many of whom I've had the pleasure of personally knowing IRL). I have seen how the tension of being isolated, being met with scorn everywhere they travel and feeling acute financial discomfort can weaken the pigheaded resolve of a racist, nationalist population that is oppressing another, to the point where they begin real dialog (and real dialog is not going to every single negotiation offering less than it is patently obvious is just).

And I know, having lived through the turbulent history of a dispensation that had extraordinary parallels with that of Israel in recent decades that your posturing about a balance of culpability is bullshit and that history will not be kind to Israel in its Apartheid era. And in my reading of this parallel, your advocacy-by-moral-equivalence-and-security-terms is indistinguishable from the smooth-tongued face of Apartheid diplomacy, the part that pandered to the American right quite successfully. On Free Republic right now posts still appear of the "I'm not a racist but look what happened after Apartheid" variety, drawing on securocrat notion that maybe Apartheid was the wrong route but the motives of the late Apartheid government were not entirely racist and they had, you know legitimate concerns about communist takeover and the kind of rampant crime we experience in SA today. So it boggles my mind somewhat encountering such arguments on a supposedly left-liberal American site. The poster who spoke of a faction that is "left wing except where Palestinians are concerned" was spot on.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #100
106. Wow two outstanding posts
Thanks for those.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #96
107. But it's usually true of most things you say
It's not so much a "shrill taunt" as a "Statement of observed behavior"

don't feel bad, my mother uses "n---er" all the time and is still convinced she's not racist.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #53
105. Wars end.
I don't know if you noticed, but we're not still rounding up Japanese people and deporting them to the desert whenever we feel like it, on the basis that "The japanese attacked us in 1941!"

Similarly you may want to re-examine your history. Israel has been attacked twice - 1948, and 1973. It has been waging a low-grade occupational / resistance conflict with Palestinians since the 50's. It has attacked Egypt twice, attacked Iraq once, invaded and occupied Lebanon twice, and its aggression and underhanded behavior has been the main cause of violent outbursts from Palestine - Operation Cast Lead for instance, or Sharon's armed march on the Dome of the rock that spurred the Second Intifada. it has conducted assassinations throughout the middle east and possibly even into Europe, showing a callous disregard for civilians or the host nations - most recently it's even shown a willingness to throw Israeli nationals into harm's way to conduct these murders.

Perhaps if Israel stopped acting like that short little motherfucker who keeps picking barfights...?
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Condemning diplomatic belligerence on the part of Israel is not anti-semitic, and the accusation is
Edited on Mon Mar-15-10 06:44 PM by nashville_brook
in bad faith, as well as intellectually laughable while it cheapens the charge of racism. there are real people out there who "hate Israel" and are "antisemitic" who pose a real threat to discourse, freedom and most of all, security. this increasingly popular canard that only anti-semites criticize Israel's bellicose actions vis a vis the settlements, is, well... irresponsible.


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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Well said

I've been surprised to see attempts (which I associate with rightwingers) to conflate genuine, considered criticism of Israel's political decisions with religious animus. It's nonsensical and amounts to trying to shout down the speaker, rather than respond with reasoned argument.
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Raejeanowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
43. Thank You
I have been unconvinced of Israel's sincerity on settlement-related issues for twenty or more years; almost as long as the Arab world has considered us Israel's bitch and punished us for our cowardice.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #43
71. Punished us?
Cowardice? :eyes:

Does that make the Palestinians the bitches of Syria, Jordan and the rest?
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #17
51. American Jews aren't killing Arabs?
I mean really when you get down to it, that's all it is - it's "not okay" to hate Jews, so let's find someone else who it's okay to hate.
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
18. Netanyahu is an extremist right winger for sure and his
natural allies are the American NeoCONS. That Cheney had a hand in this is very probable.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
22. I normally avoid this topic
...but this is obscene. There has to be a point where we say "ENOUGH!!" - stop antagonizing your neighbors or we will cut off money & military supplies. Capice????
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
28.  what does it mean for Petraeus to have Gaza/WB "part of his operations"?
is he talking about shifting diplomatic functions to the military? is he talking about having "peacekeeping troops" or other military operations in that part of the Middle East. why would he say this?
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Lurks Often Donating Member (505 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Because the rest of the Middle East falls into
Central Command (CENTCOM)'s area of responsibility includes all of the Middle East EXCEPT Israel, all the "Stans" north to Russia and east to India and the eastern part of the African continent (Egypt, Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia, Kenya, Eritrea & Djibouti). Israel is still part of European Command. Since almost everything Israel does impacts the rest of the Middle East, I tend to agree that Israel should be part of CENTCOM. Kind of putting all ones eggs in the same basket.

Generally any theater commander (or his second in command) conducts basic diplomatic functions related to the US military (logistics, basing rights, coordination of militaries, training) and may also lay groundwork for the State Department. Any of the theater commands that interact with foreign countries almost certainly have a State Department representative on staff to advise the theater commanded (and who would have also almost certainly been appointed either by the President or Sec of State. or at the very least with their approval)
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. what an awesome response -- thanks! -- the article also states the proposal was DOA at the WH
and that Petraeus actually took the request to Mullen (CJCS) -- but that seems an inconsequential correction:

from the link:

UPDATE 2--from Mark Perry: A senior military officer told Foreign Policy by email that one minor detail in my report, "The Petraeus Briefing" was incorrect: a request from General Petraeus for the Palestinian occupied territories (but, as I made clear, not Israel itself), be brought within CENTCOM's region of operation was sent to JCS Chairman Mullen - and not directly to the White House. My information was based on conversations with CENTCOM officials, who believed they were giving me correct information. It is significant that the correction was made, not because it is an important detail, but because it is was inconsequential to the overall narrative. In effect, the U.S. military has clearly said there was nothing in this report that could be denied.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
31. I agree kpete, Cheney would undermine U.S. interests in a heart beat
Edited on Mon Mar-15-10 07:30 PM by Uncle Joe
if he perceived receiving political benefit from it.

Just ask Valerie Plame or the people that worked with Brewster Jennings.

Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
32. Bearing in mind that Cheney encouraged that attack on Gaza
don't rule out his hand in the embarrassment meted out to Obama and Biden with the settlement announcement. Bottom line - too many US administrations have allowed Israel to literally get away with the slaughter of Palestinians and the capture of their lands.
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thediggity Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
34. omg this is EXACTLY how your supposed to respond!!!
fuck this pro Israel government shit! these government goons up there are just as bad as the people they supposedly fight against. no? ask average joe Palestinian what he thinks they are doing.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
35. Jeez, I wonder what the hell could have given them that crazy idea.
"The 33-slide, 45-minute PowerPoint briefing stunned Mullen. The briefers reported that there was a growing perception among Arab leaders that the U.S. was incapable of standing up to Israel,..."
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #35
57. they needed a slide show?
if that stunned Mullen, get him out of there and get someone who has a clue.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
36. Thanks for this UPDATE, KPete...Discouraging how this keeps going on with the NeoCon's Control...
but I don't trust Petraeus or any of the rest of them in what they say that's reported, either.

I do hope that one day a General will come forth that an Administration will listen to, though. But, given the control of the Military/Industrial/Media Complex...it's hard to know what to believe these days and that's why it's important for the little sites to get info out.

Again...many thanks.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
38. It is dangerous for troops overseas. No doubt with jihadi muslims attacking
Americans (inside and outside the USA) you would think it would have made the USA and Israel closer. But no. They've never been further apart it seems.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
39. K & R
:thumbsup:
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
41. we have`t needed israel since the soviet union collapsed
it`s pretty bad when a general has to tell the civilians what the fuck is going on out in the real world.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #41
54. Israelis need Israel.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. You have mistakenly believed that posters here give a fuck.
A bomb could land on Tel-Aviv, Haifa, or any Israeli city (with perhaps the exception of Jerusalem) and posters here would "celebrate." It would be "Israel's fault," "A false flag operation," or some other level of bullshit. Yes, there would be the ones crying crocodile tears, but those would soon dry with pronouncements of any Israeli response as being "too much."
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #55
72. It's a sad truth on DU.
And they'll never admit it.

There is so much hatred for Israel on this board and in the Left in general. It sickens me, it's like the Right and Muslims.
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FDR_Democrat Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
44. I don't think Israel has ever been our friend.....
History has shown they certainly like to spy on us and steal our secrets.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
45. Our leaders are sad characatures of statesmen... nt
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
47. Finally, the truth! The Israeli government DOES have contempt for the US government
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 02:00 AM by Nothing Without Hope
and with good reason. For example, read this 2005 New Yorker article on the AIPAC lobby:
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/07/04/050704fa_fact
It is indeed a clash of titans - the US military and oil lobbies vs. the Israeli lobby.

Another sign that the strong Israeli government/US neocon influence may be weaker than many of us feared is that for years they have pushed very, very hard for US invasion of Iran. For example:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/may/13/aipac-iran-us-obama
...and so far, at least, that hasn't happened as they wanted.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
50. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
52. I wonder if Team Obama every regrets ignoring the Bush Administration's crimes?
I'd bet you $5 this little insult was Cheney's idea.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
56. Bibi has AIPAC on the attack. Same old message. Bow obediently to your Israeli overlords!
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:22 AM
Response to Original message
60. Of course we can "stand up to Israel"
Why is everything put in these terms?

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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
63. Time to cut their allowance... to zero.
Actually, that is at least a decade overdue.

The RW settler nuts, like the guy who killed Rabin, are running the show over there now.

Very bad moon rising.
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kstewart33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
64. Great post, kpete. Keep them coming! nt
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. +1
K&R
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
65. When in the last 40 plus years HAS the US "stood up" to Israel?
If we didn't do anything when they attacked a US vessel and killed dozens of US military (far more than the USS Cole), why would this be reason to "stand up" to them?

They have correctly concluded that president Obama is even less likely than previous US presidents to curb Israel's enthusiasm for excessive conduct.

When congress and the president lack the strength to stand up to the Health Care industry here, does anyone really believe any of them will stand up to Israel and AIPAC? They've already folded. They may yammer about it and issue some "stern words," but everyone (including them) know they're not going to do a damn thing about it.

Our problems in the mideast will never abate until we stop allowing Israel to be the tail wagging our dog in the mideast.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #65
86. It was reading about the USS Liberty that pulled me out of the
pro-Israel camp. Permanently.

Any nation that could do that to us deliberately and without consequences is not our ally, nor even our friend.
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itsrobert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
67. The GOP is working behind the scenes so Obama gets no Middle East Peace
Remember how the republicans used the hostages in 1980?
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #67
75. The neo-con's are far more allegiant to the right wingers in Israel
than they are to Obama or the security of the United States.
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d.gibbs Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
70. Leave Israel Alone
And Stop Sending Money!
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
73. A possibility: A kabuki rift to gain cred with the Arab world.
I'm not saying it's true, just that it is a possibility. We've seen enough of it on the domestic front lately.
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icee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #73
80. I think that's a real possibility. You shouldn't hedge on good
opinions like that. The majority of the people look at things in black and white. Nothing is ever black and white. Both in the US and Israel, we are dealing with the most devious peoples ever created. Good show there.
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SlingBlade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
76. Since when did Israel become the United States ?
This shit has been so ouuta hand for so many years that if it continues much longer
they are gonna drag us down right along with themselves.

The right wing of Israel has been leading America around by the nose for too long
We must as a Nation support the left there and ignore these rabid fucks that would
have us send even more troops to back up this bullshit.

Israel has a large thinking left. We need to support them
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
77. All Neo cons (and many Dems) are in cahoots with the Israeli RW.
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 09:33 AM by Jennicut
I wouldn't be surprised if they want to do more then embarrass a US VP next time someone from our administration goes there. They don't care what we say or do, which is the exact result of years of our letting them get away with crap like this in the name of "Israel's security". Things are precarious over there to begin with but the RW of Israel does itself no favors by acting like spoiled brats. This is what we are talking about, not all of Israel. The dangerous RW is just as bad as ours is. My grandfather was Jewish. I do not hate Jews when I am partly one myself. I dislike the RW taking over their country.

Also, Biden has a point that it undermines our efforts in the Middle East. He was not exactly the one in the administration calling for the escalation in Afghanistan, remember. He wanted us to pull back. His main thought is that if we are there, then we do not need this crap from Israel. It can hurt cooperation with Pakistan too. It does not help at all.

It does not matter if Cheney and Bush were in jail. There are plenty of neo cons to go around to work with Israel. Don't forget there are also many Dems tied to AIPAC and more loyal to Israel then the US. Time to cut off the money. But Obama will have no support from Congress on it. After all, the protection of Israel goes deep into both parties.
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DallasNE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
78. When I Read These Words
These steps seem perfectly coordinated with neoconservatives in the United States

I immediately thought Dick Cheney. Seconds later I scroll down and there is the picture of Dick Cheney. Never before have we seen an insurrection by a prior administration like this. It borders on treason.
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icee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
79. Israel has been running the United States for a long time. This is
simply more theatre. Netanyahu could have punched Biden in the nose and it wouldn't have made any difference.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
81. Petraeus won't get anywhere until he attacks AIPAC directly!
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
83. Does Israel have any sincere intentions to come to an equitable agreement.
It appears to me that Israel is determined to occupy all of the captured land that they have acquired and have little real intention to make peace with the Palestinians. They only give the subject of peaceful coexistence any attention is when they fear there might be a reaction to their stonewalling by our leaders. There is little doubt that their influence appears to be completely out of proportion as to totality of our interest concerning the entirety of the Middle East.

Several have taken note of the fact that the neo-cons have aligned themselves with the religious radical fundamentalists End Timers in their unqualified support for Israel and condemnation of Islamism. This is a particularly dangerous development when it is contemplated that Sara Palin, who fully subscribes to this radical idiocy, could have been in line to led our nation. I don't know what it will take to awaken the citizens to the realization of just how dangerous the neo-cons are. Under their influence they invaded Iraq resulting in the death of tens of thousands to the applause of the corporate media, condoned torture, wire tapped the citizens without warrants, bankrupt the country and destroyed the military. What does Obama say about it, nothing.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #83
87. Israel wants the Palestinians gone.
That has been their consistent aim since 1948, and they have never acted contrary to that goal in any lasting way. It is an ethnic cleansing, and will continue, whether we support them or not.

The question really is whether we have any interest in supporting them, given how the rest of the world has woken up to their intentions.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. False.
Their goal since '48 was responding to constant attacks.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. I've read your other posts.
You and I could never possibly agree on this subject, or even discuss it rationally.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #90
95. Unwilling to discuss?
I guess you can't defend your anti-Israel positions.
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FarrenH Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #88
93. False
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 02:57 PM by FarrenH
And prominent Israeli leaders have publically and privately made statements that are now a matter of historical record refuting that position, especially early Zionists. And claiming that creeping colonialism (putting your civilian population in occupied territory) is a security measure really is an insult to the intelligence of your readers. Do you think we're four-year-olds?

Since logic doesn't seem to be a strong point of your thinking on the issue, I should add that the above is a refutation of your claim, not a counter-claim that Israel has never had legitimate security concerns.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
92. I do wonder whether if the incident was a deliberate test to see how much the Israeli hard-liners
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 02:30 PM by Nothing Without Hope
can get away with under this US administration. It was wall-to-wall rah-rah and red carpet treatment with the Bushes and their neocons. If this blatant challenge with the planned settlements had been allowed to silently slide this time, what would have been next? Remember, the Israeli hardliners and the US neocons have been pushing hard for years for the US to invade Iran or at least to give a green light to the Israeli government hawks to do so, among other things. At first, I thought the incident was just ego-stroking and playing to the hard-line political factions in Israel, and Netanyahu and his allies are certainly capable of that, but now I am wondering if it was also a test of US resolve in the face of continued and even escalating actions by the Israeli hawks.
:tinfoilhat:

Netanyahu has always been vehemently, violently pro-settlement, and this has been one of the foundations of his political base, but there is also the rest of a big agenda that they still want to pursue. Among other things, this faction wants to drive a wedge between the Arabic peoples and governments and the Western world, so that Israel is left as the only ally in the region. Let us all hope that the wiser and more moral factions in Israel can find a more powerful voice soon - all of this is so damaging to ALL sides.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #92
104. too bad their own fanatic murdered Rabin
Instead of voting for another leader like Rabin, the Israelis have voted for neo-con warhawks.

And, how many remember in the * administration (wolfowitz's office, I think) an Israeli spy was caught. And nothing was done. How about the art "students" after 9/11-they were deported. How about the moving van that attempted to get on one of our main bases (Israeli agents)?

Yet, it must be okay by some on this board for Israel to spy on us--with apparently, no consequences. Israel is for Israel. I also remember the attack on the USS Liberty.
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
94. Anti-semitism has sure found a home.
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Mike K Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
99. This unintentional misnomer -
- <...>"The question is whether a close ally can throw juvenile tantrums and abuse its protector indefinitely without consequences." - is cause for much confusion.

The word, ally, implies a reciprocally beneficial relationship between entities. In reality, Israel is a protectorate, not an ally. Those who disagree should specify Israel's contributions to the so-called "alliance."

My understanding is Israel has does nothing for the U.S. in exchange for the valuable support it has received from us thoroughout its existence. What we have gotten from Israel is a murderous attack on the USS Liberty and a long history of spying and one major espionage operation (the Pollard affair).

Also, there is ample cause to believe that the 9/11 attack was provoked by U.S. support of Israel:

The following is excerpted from a PBS Frontline (John Miller) 1998 interview with Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<. . .>We know at least one reason behind the symbolic participation of the Western forces and that is to support the Zionist plans for expansion of what is called the Greater Israel. Surely, their presence is not out of concern over their interests in the region. ... Their presence has no meaning save one and that is to offer support to the Jews in Palestine who are in need of their Christian brothers to achieve full control over the Arab Peninsula which they intend to make an important part of the so called Greater Israel. ...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/interview.html
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