"Deem And Pass" Is NOT "Without A Vote"

[bigtree]

from Bill Scher at HuffPo: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-scher/deem-and-pass-is-not-with_b_501186.html


Several traditional media outlets are regurgitating the conservative spin that if the House uses the parliamentary procedure known as a "self-executing rule" or "deem and pass," it will be passing the Senate health care vote "without a vote."

Yet that is a false assertion.

MSNBC's First Read succinctly explains the process, in case any other professional journalists care to do their jobs: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/03/16/2229330.aspx

...the health-care bill would be voted on INDIRECTLY, tucked into what's known as "the rule." The rule essentially outlines the rules for an upcoming vote -- in this case, it would be the vote on the package of reconciliation fixes.

By passing "the rule," the House also would "deem" the Senate bill passed (with a "hereby" statement. "We hereby deem..."). The House would then vote on the package of reconciliation fixes. But the Senate health-care bill would be considered passed even if they never vote on the reconciliation fixes the bill must be signed by the president before the Senate takes up the reconciliation.

So there is a vote by the full House on whether it chooses to pass the Senate health care bill.

If any members of the House do not want to deem the Senate bill passed, they can vote "No" on the rule which would deem it passed.

Any members of the House who vote "Yes," would do so by recorded vote, so their constituents will be able to judge their actions.


read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-scher/deem-and-pass-is-not-with_b_501186.html

[ShortnFiery]

1. I'm disgusted! There should be a vote. We will lose EVEN BIGGER if they don't

allow the House a separate vote on HRC Senate Bill.

[Hosnon]

2. I'll say it again: the procedure may be legit (questionable) but we'll lose trying

to make such a nuanced argument.

The opposing soundbite is: "Dems to pass healthcare without a vote".

I'd like to see the counter-soundbite.

[ShortnFiery]

4. If I didn't know better, I'd swear that the democratic leaders don't give a damn if

our party loses BIG come November?!?

[onenote]

5. well, unless every repub stays home that day, they'll have trouble explaining

how it was that they voted on something that they are claiming wasn't put to a vote.

As has been explained again and again, there really is a vote -- a full roll call, take names and everything, on the approval of the bill. Its just not as a stand alone, which is neither novel nor controversial.

[Hosnon]

11. That's then, this is now. I hope we make it to that point because that means the

bill passed. However, this maneuver may dominate the news cycle for the rest of the week.

[karynnj]

28. Your last sentence sums it up perfectly

The House members that vote yes will simultaneously vote for the Senate bill and the set of changes. If asked, they did vote for the Senate bill, but they did so also voting to eliminate the bad things and add some good things.

Now, if the plan goes as hoped and the Senate passes the reconciliation package - then the House has voted for the final program that Obama signs into to law with two separate signatures. The Senate will have voted for both bills, the main one getting 60 votes and the latter through reconciliation.

Now, if the Senate does not pass the reconciliation package, the Senate HCR bill will have still passed. But, every Congressmen could say they voted for the changes. This scenario is very unlikely as they are insuring the Senate has the needed 51 votes.

[bigtree]

6. I don't think it would be hard to find republican initiatives 'deemed passed by rule'

. . . probably some fairly significant end-runs around Democrats occurred in that course.

[Hosnon]

14. I think it has been used many times before but for relatively smaller bills.

I.e., bills small enough not to catch the attention of the public.

[bigtree]

22. the republicans accelerated their use of the procedure under Gingrich in '95

'contract on America' and all of that . . . again, I wouldn't be surprised to find some humdingers in all of that effort.

[Hosnon]

27. The fair test is to ask yourself what your reaction would have been had Bush and the GOP

done this with the PATRIOT Act or something as equally large and as equally partisan as healthcare reform has become.

[HughMoran]

15. Well, except that if you had read it, they indeed are voting

So, your post is saying something that is untrue.

[Hosnon]

16. I didn't say they aren't voting. But that soundbite has already been unleashed. nt.

[HughMoran]

20. So Faux controls the spin and we are helpless to combat it?

Sigh :(

[Hosnon]

24. It wasn't just Fox. Each of the cable news stations had some variation of that soundbite

by 7 a.m. this morning.

If Pelosi is going to use this, she shouldn't have tipped her hand. Do it, pass the bill, and take the hit politically after the bill is law.

[onenote]

30. and a lot of folks here at DU are doing their damndest to perpetuate that soundbite

rather than refute it.

[Hosnon]

31. It doesn't need to be refuted on DU. nt.

[onenote]

32. given the amount of misinformation being spread here, I tend to disagree

[Hosnon]

33. We live in a bubble here. The vast majority of the country gets its news from

headlines.

The congressional fence sitters are going to see the average American's reaction to this and be less likely to support it (to whatever degree). I just don't see what was gained by the Dems by tipping our hand on this.

[onenote]

34. i agree with you on that completely

They let the story get away from them. In the long run, I'm not sure it will matter as much as some seem to think it will, but it was treated almost like a trial balloon that was launched so it could be shot at when in fact,I don't think that was the intent.

[Hosnon]

35. I hadn't thought of that. But I generally don't credit our party with having

very well-developed tactical skills.

But if this makes the GOP think that getting an up or down direct vote is a good compromise, kudos to Pelosi!

[mdmc]

3. smoke and mirrors bs

either way, those that support this bill will be known to the public.

[Cha]

8. That's right and I support it. No smoke and mirrors..

it's procedural..in the rules and not complicated.

[Jennicut]

7. It is a vote. And a procedure Rethugs have used themselves many times before.

Too many in the media are too lazy to understand it. The public will want to know simply if the final bill has passed or not.
Here is the Rethug hypocrisy in all it's glory:

From June 19, 2006 in Roll Call:
Former House GOP Rules Committee Chief Of Staff Don Wolfensberger: Republicans "Set New Records" For Using Self-Executing Rule.

Self-executing rules began innocently enough in the 1970s as a way of making technical corrections to bills. But, as the House became more partisan in the 1980s, the majority leadership was empowered by its caucus to take all necessary steps to pass the party's bills. This included a Rules Committee that was used more creatively to devise procedures to all but guarantee policy success.

The self-executing rule was one such device to make substantive changes in legislation while ensuring majority passage. ... When Republicans took power in 1995, they soon lost their aversion to self-executing rules and proceeded to set new records under Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.).

There were 38 and 52 self-executing rules in the 104th and 105th Congresses (1995-1998), making up 25 percent and 35 percent of all rules, respectively.

Under Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) there were 40, 42 and 30 self-executing rules in the 106th, 107th and 108th Congresses (22 percent, 37 percent and 22 percent, respectively). Thus far in the 109th Congress, self-executing rules make up about 16 percent of all rules."
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/dems-say-gop-crying-crocodile-tears-with-rules-complaints-republicans-set-records-for-same-process.php

[Oregone]

9. Correct me if I am wrong....

But if they pass the Senate bill, and reconciliation falls to shit, then don't they stand a bigger chance of fucking themselves, the party, and the American people by sticking them with that terrible bill of goods? I mean, if you are going to pass this piecer, isn't this the more benign way to *ensure* they get what they want?

[tomm2thumbs]

10. oh the lessons that are learned by one side will eventually be used by the other side

guess it goes without saying, but anything that rules allow will be weapons of choice by either body when they are given the chance. Just hope folks are ready to say 'uh, okay I guess we did that too' when it comes back to haunt us. I'm not saying rules can't be stretched to the point of what the law allows, but it sure makes it easy pickins' for the other side when they get in a pinch as well.

[Spike89]

37. uhmm, this "tactic" was used by the Repubs 35% of the time...

during Gingrich's term as leader. I'm tired of the democrats keeping their powder dry. "Sure, they used this a lot when they were in power, but now that we're in power, we dare not use it because they might get in power again and use it." That makes no sense at all!

[HughMoran]

12. Thank you!

Why is this relatively straight forward process so difficult to explain, and why are posters that I've never seen before telling me that this will "lose the Dems many seats" :think:

[Oregone]

17. The Democrats have fed a cynical fire until its become an inferno with this process

People are probably fed up and reactionary at this point.

Honestly, I think this is the more responsible way to handle the situation. If I was in the House, I would not pass the Senate Bill directly unless I was guarenteed fixes (its a perfect situation for a bait-and-switch)


On edit: I should not forget, the media has dramatized it as well

[HughMoran]

19. No doubt the media is feeding this fire

The media in this country is simply AWFUL!! CNN will repeat any rumor they hear on Faux - even after being discredited. MSNBC is only marginally better depending on what time of day it is. :mad:

[ChicagoSuz219]

13. What they will be voting for is the Bill including the changes.

Just because Michele Bachman says something, doesn't make it so.

Jeez...

[HughMoran]

18. I've never seen so much Republican spin and deliberate ignorance on any topic here, ever

:wtf:

[ChicagoSuz219]

29. They keep showing that psycho Bachman...

...as if she would possibly have a clue about anything.

[liberal N proud]

21. The question becomes, How many times do they have to vote

Until it doesn't pass?

The House passed legislation once, now they have to vote again and so will the Senate?

[WillyT]

23. Demon Pass Sounds Like The Next Quentin Tarantino Movie...

;)

:shrug:

[bigtree]

25. not

Kill Bill?
:hide:

[WillyT]

26. LOL !!! - Most Excellent !!!

:rofl:

:applause:

:hi:

[NewJeffCT]

36. And, Republics used it a ton of times when they ran the House

if I'm not mistaken...