Work with teachers, don't fire them

[proud2BlibKansan]

Editor's note: Esther Wojcicki, a teacher at Palo Alto High School in California for the past 25 years, developed its award-winning journalism program. She helped design the Google education program, which includes the Web site http://www.google.com/educators/index.html. Wojcicki is chairwoman of the board of directors of Creative Commons and serves on the board of the Developmental Studies Center and the Alliance for Excellent Education.

(CNN) -- Little Rhode Island made big news in the education arena last month. Superintendent Frances Gallo fired all the teachers at Central Falls High School after negotiations with the teachers' union failed.

The move was triggered by low test scores -- only 7 percent of 11th-graders passed the state math tests, and 50 percent of the students at Central Falls failed to graduate in four years. Appalling numbers. Gallo wanted teachers to increase the length of the school day and spend time tutoring kids. The teachers' union was not convinced.

Even President Obama got involved and supported the firing, saying, "If a school continues to fail its students year after year after year, if it doesn't show signs of improvement, then there's got to be a sense of accountability."

Yes, accountability is right, but who is supposed to be accountable for this massive failure to learn? The general consensus is that the teachers are responsible.

more . . . http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/03/16/wojcicki.firing.teachers/index.html?iref=allsearch

[msongs]

1. hold everyone accountable except the KIDS WHO FAIL THE TESTS. yeah right nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. It's not their fault

Poor little darlings.

[sandnsea]

3. Obama's Education Plan Works With Teachers

But that gets trashed too.

Maybe teachers should just be required to work 8 - 5 jobs, 52 weeks a year, and see if that works.

[kwassa]

16. You mean teachers should cut back on the hours they work?

by only working 8 to 5?

as to the 52 weeks, who does that?

[sandnsea]

19. Then there should be no problem

Just work the 8 to 5 and then the extra hours that were requested in Rhode Island wouldn't have been a problem.

I work 52 weeks a year, just about everybody I know works 52 weeks a year. Holidays consist of the 4th, Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years; sometimes Memorial Day and Labor Day but not always. Sick Pay? rotflmao.

This is reality for most people in this country.

[tbyg52]

26. True, and sad. Please don't try to drag others down on that account.

If you think teachers have it soft at good pay, apply for the job.

[Catshrink]

27. Probably couldn't cut it.

Has no clue what a teacher does.

[tbyg52]

29. Many don't.

As in virtually everyone who has not done it. Period.

I speak as one with 9 years USN, 7 years corporate, and 18 years public school.

[Catshrink]

32. Exactly --

if you haven't done the job, you don't understand it.

[sandnsea]

33. I should have

If I'd known it was okay to act like a banshee and keep the job, I wouldn't have worried about losing my temper once a year.

Having seen teachers overturn desks, throw books across the room, look up girls' dresses, kill puppies in class, even smack kids, I'd have been a saint in comparison.

BTW, I've done daycare, pre-school, scouts and sports teams. Don't always assume you're the only one that works with kids.

[tbyg52]

34. >>Don't always assume you're the only one that works with kids.

I don't. But public school is different from the experiences you describe. The kids in your examples are virtually 100% there because their parents want them to be and support them, I'd venture to say.

Edited to add that you seem to have had some horrific experiences with teachers. I am sorry. I hope you took appropriate action.

[sandnsea]

39. Nope. Not even as much as school

Any after school program is pure child care, as is obviously, child care. Many of the parents don't care much at all about whether the kids succeed at their sport or project. They just want them to be safe and have a positive experience, pretty much what they want from school. But you still have obligations to the kids, and the larger group that you're involved with, especially scouts.

In any event, my point was, yes, most of us do know how much teachers have to do because we've been engaged with kids ourselves and know how difficult it is to keep any given number of kids on task.

And we also know we do this for kids, while receiving phone calls from work. And then we go home and receive phone calls from whatever kid group we're involved with, as well as from work.

I mean honest to christ, sometimes you guys just need to give somebody else a chance to use the wood.

[tbyg52]

41. >>sometimes you guys just need to give somebody else a chance to use the wood.

Huh? Not an expression I am familiar with.

I am happy that you volunteer. Thank you. I do as well. I still hope for respect and decent pay from my job.

[kwassa]

36. I think you are wrong

I think you need to back up this statement

"This is reality for most people in this country."

No, you just made that up.

[sandnsea]

43. What?? Really???

That reminds me of old whatshisface, Dick Armey, when he said Congress should get a raise because everybody else gets one every year.

Do you think that's true too?

I do not even remember the last time I had a vacation. Nobody I know takes vacations. With gas prices, we can barely afford an annual week-end camping trip to a local lake.

The median wage is around $14 hr. Do you think that is a job with full benefits and 5 week vacations? Most aren't. That's half the working population right there.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

46. You disagree, so it's made up??

Wow. That's wild. Can you at least point to a fact that leads you to believe something is made up.

[kwassa]

51. You make big assertions with no backup with facts.

like most people work 52 weeks a year.

[sandnsea]

54. And you call me a liar

with no facts. I didn't attack you personally. I just said most working people don't have vacations, they work 52 weeks a year. If they can get it. Many have to go on unemployment in the winter when their job goes on hiatus. They'd be glad to work 52 weeks.

[kwassa]

56. I never called you anything.

That is your imagination.

and everyone with a job is a working person.

[sandnsea]

57. lol, making things up isn't lying??

You're a laugh riot.

Only 10% of workers even take a 2 week vacation anymore, even if they have the time to do it.
http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2010/03/too_many_workers_not_using_vac.html

25% don't even get the choice to take a vacation.
http://www.scfl.org/?ulnid=1373

As I said, most workers work 52 weeks a year. At least that's the way it is in my world. I don't consider a three day week-end here and there a vacation. That's what most workers do because they can't afford to go anywhere for any length of time.

[radical noodle]

63. So you're angry at teachers

because you can't take a vacation? Oh yeah, my husband is a teacher and we have scads of vacations, we just go for weeks and weeks traveling all over the world with our windfall profits from public education. :sarcasm:

Seriously, I'm in business, my husband is a teacher (semi-retired) and we can't go anywhere either. Not only that, but I have NEVER taken a two week vacation (trip) even when I was a child. My last "vacation" was being off work for surgery. I don't sit around feeling sorry for myself because of it.

You seem to think that teachers get a paid vacations in the summer. Teachers are actually paid for the time they work, but their pay is generally spread out so they receive checks year round. They are not given two to three months of paid vacation time.

[sandnsea]

64. No. Go back to the beginning

I said maybe teachers should just work an 8-5, 52 weeks a year, like everybody else. That way they can't be asked to take on extra work that they aren't getting paid for which was the basis of the problems in Rhode Island.

52 weeks a year, with paid vacation of course, which I actually figured anybody would conclude. But the truth is there are a lot of people who don't get paid vacation or can't afford to take a week or two to go anywhere anyway, which I also pointed out when I was told I was making things up about people working 52 weeks.

I am not angry at teachers. I'm angry at the opposition to setting high academic standards in our schools and taking the best methods from successful reforms and charters and implementing them in every school.

[radical noodle]

73. I can't speak for teachers

because I am not one. However, after my husband's 40 or so years of teaching in a secondary school, I can tell you that the teachers I know do not oppose high academic standards as long as everyone is on the same page with them and they are proven methods. That means school boards, administrators, and parents backing them up. There should also be an understanding that not all kids will achieve those goals, and that a teacher has no control over the students he/she is given. Because my husband was the only male teacher in the English department (please don't bash me because this sounds sexist, it's true), he was given all the kids the judges sent back to school, the kids on drugs or booze, the kids who didn't want to be in school, and all the serious discipline problems. If you look at the scores of his students compared to a teacher who was teaching honors students, you might think he was a bad teacher. Sure, some of those kids can be turned around with time and attention, but most have their sails set by the time he got them in high school.

Most teachers would love to have a school board, administration, parents and kids who care about academic standards. I imagine all of them have a list of things they see every day that, if changed, could improve the education of children. The problem is that no one listens to them and that's frustrating at best. It's like making a medical decision based on what your beautician told you and then blaming your doctor when it doesn't turn out well.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tbyg52]

70. OK, let me see if I've got this straight

American workers, many of them, are in pretty sad shape, treatment-wise, and it's getting worse. This is bad. Therefore teachers should be in the same sad shape, treatment-wise. (The assumption is that they aren't, but that's another topic.)

And the dividing the masses into segments and the turning them against each other continues apace.....

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

75. That's what I said, he should stop that

And just work an 8 - 5 like everybody else.

[PVnRT]

72. Maybe you should just come out and admit you fucking hate teachers

Instead of posting this kind of weasel-word bullshit you usually do.

[sandnsea]

76. Actually the teachers I know are terrific

And aren't sitting around whining about raising academic standards and implementing reforms to help the kids.

If I believed all the teachers out there were like the 5 or 6 at DU who oppose any kind of change, well yeah, then I would fucking hate teachers.

And I don't use weasel words. I tell it pretty straight up. That's why people get pissed off at what I say.

[walldude]

87. The ones who throw desks and look up kids dresses?

You are all over the place here. In one post you rant about horrible teachers who throw desks and look up girls dresses and in this they are terrific. Gimme a break. People get pissed off at what you say because you are saying two different things at the same time and most don't have time to decide whether you love teachers or think they are all raging pervs. :rofl:

[sandnsea]

88. Yeah, because I said they're all that way

:crazy:

[walldude]

86. Let me ask you a question

what do you do? Is it a desk job? If it is could you do it without a desk or a computer or pencils and paper? Could you do double the workload in the same amount of time for the same money while they take away your desk and computer? Are you a mechanic? Could you do your job without tools? Could you fix 10 cars a day instead of 3 without tools, more time or more money?
You compare your job to a teachers, but are you constantly being told how horrible you are while they are adding more and more of a workload and taking away more and more of the things you need to accomplish your job? Somehow I doubt it.



Shitting on teachers has become a national pastime, frankly I'd like to see anyone who is whining about teachers take 6 classes a day of 35 kids per class and teach every single one of those 210 kids to be brilliant.

I see in one of your other "posts" you are all for accountability for these horrid teachers. Are you for accountability for anyone else? Bush/Cheney? Torturers? War Criminals? Wall Street?
Where are you in condemning Obama for allowing the war criminals and torturers to walk away? What about Wall Street? "Obama's plan works with teachers" You seriously believe that? Really?

Because to me it looks like Obama is a coward who is willing to hold anyone he's not afraid of accountable, while letting criminals, torturers, and the very people who collapsed the economy off with rewards, bonuses, and medals. Yeah it takes a real tough guy to pick on teachers while ignoring murderers, torturers and robber barons.

[sandnsea]

89. You hate Obama. Gotcha. n/t

[walldude]

90. LMFAO.. yeah I thought so... I also want a pony and I don't want

perfect to be the enemy of the good.... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[theoldman]

4. Maybe the teachers that got fired were like the ones interviewed by Jay Leno.

I know several teachers and they are very knowledgeable. This does not mean that teachers in other areas are knowledgeable. I live in the suburbs and I am sure it is very different in the big cities.

[LisaM]

5. This is a wise article. This, about Central Falls, jumped out at me

~If you examine Central Falls High School closely, a few things stand out: More than 96 percent of the students are eligible for free or reduced lunch, according to the school's Web site, and only 6 percent of the people in the town have a college degree. Does that tell you something important about the parents? They are struggling financially and lack postsecondary education.

Central Falls provides little or no parental support for students or for the teachers, yet everyone expects teachers to do it all with few resources. Clearly, it does not work.~


I'm really getting tired of the fact that politicians are not examining what's going on in the home. Many kids are getting raised by one parent - or by parents that are barely more than kids themselves. I am a bus commuter, and I cannot tell you how many times I see a group of teenagers get on, with one or two babies. They're just kids themselves! Are they going to provide the parenting skills those kids need to start kindergarten?

I was just reading Family Circle magazine the other day, and saw two separate places where they discussed problems kids were having. One was with school bullies. The article advised that it was the fault and problem of the school administrators. The other was a mother complaining that another child kept coming to her complaining about her own child and a friend. In that case, the person advised to make it the teacher's responsibility. In both cases, they advised against going to the parents of the offending children! Hello! This is ridiculous.

It almost seems as if there isn't a normal for parents anymore. There are the helicopter parents of privileged kids, and the neglectful ones of poor kids. I believe that this is the true issue confronting the schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Parental involvement really is at two extremes

Either way too much or none at all.

[LisaM]

7. So why can't Obama see it?

He's a smart guy.

[tonysam]

8. He's University of Chicago, and he's on the take. n/t

[radical noodle]

10. Lots of smart people don't get it

Maybe because they've never experienced it? :shrug:

[sandnsea]

15. He's harped about parental involvement repeatedly

Programs that include parental outreach are also part of reform proposals. Schools can create a respectful and inclusive atmosphere for parents, or they can be condescending and alienating.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. He's a corporatist

He isn't in charge and neither was Bush or Clinton or any other recent president. Our country is controlled by corporations. Obama does what they want.

[Common Sense Party]

61. So, those of us parents who are involved, but not TOO involved...

What, we don't exist in your construct of reality?

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. You are a small minority

[Common Sense Party]

77. It must suck in your world, then.

My kids' teachers have told me it's more like a Bell curve. A few parents on each extreme, but most of us are in the middle, involved, but not hovering.

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. It really varies from district to district

In my experience it's other way too much participation or none at all. And I'd rather have way too much:)

[Common Sense Party]

83. We would tend toward too much. We're definitely involved. We go to

parent-teacher conference. We know what assignments are made and (for the most part) when they're due. We make the girls do homework each afternoon before any computer or Wii time. We stress how important education is. But we don't helicopter around our kids and their teachers, we don't complain about grades our kids earn, etc.

The way I've always looked at it is, my wife and I are our kids' primary teachers in life. We get some help from the schools and from the teachers at Church, but it's really OUR responsibility to make sure our kids know what they need to know.

[radical noodle]

9. On target!

If parents can blame teachers they don't have to blame their kids (or themselves) for anything.

[gleaner]

11. That is one answer and it is not always incorrect ..

But sometimes it is the circumstances that people find themselves in that defeat them. How well are the schools funded? How well do the parents understand the importance of education? Any of them go any higher than 12th grade graduation? Any of them drop out? How many jobs are they working to feed their families and how much time does that give them to spend with their families.

Then there is the question of how well we fund our public schools. Most states can't or won't provide adequate funding. Rich people's children go to private schools, and other people's children don't concern them, especially if the children are from poor families.

There is a whole constellation of reasons for schools to perform poorly and funding is at the heart of a lot of them. Welcome to DU:hi:

[LisaM]

12. What I liked in that article was her assertion that we need to help these parents

I think that is the crux of the problem.

[gleaner]

60. You're right ....

If the parents are young and inexperienced, why not parenting classes which help them to understand how to make a better future for themselves and their children? Maybe night classes in a local high school. We used to do that here in LA. If you wanted to you could attend classes and go through high school as an adult and learn job skills or have someone mentor you and help you learn to read and write if you were illiterate. Again a lot of that died when the funding dried up and the rich became so very holy that they were no longer expected to pay their fair share of tax.

[sandnsea]

14. Well you know, college isn't for everybody

This is what happens to those students, even if they wait to have children. They're still uneducated and they still don't have any reason to motivate their children to do anything different, because all they hear from the teachers is "college isn't for everybody".

[gleaner]

58. I never heard that from a teacher ...

maybe it was a different time, but I was always encouraged. It used to be easier to get student loans then to give more people access to college. There is the thought one would have that maybe the students without means are being let down easily so that they can find another alternative. It doesn't necessarily have to mean the teachers don't care. Many of the alternatives we used to offer children have been slammed shut in their faces due to lack of funding.

[radical noodle]

78. College is NOT for everybody

Why should anyone pretend that it is? A brain damaged teenager who has parents who expect her to go to college could be under a great deal of stress to perform in a way she isn't able. It does more harm to kids in the long run to give them totally unreasonable expectations than to help steer them into something in which they might excel and be successful. That is different than saying that poor children or children of uneducated people should/could not go to college. I've never read that anywhere in DU unless there was a discussion of how difficult it is to finance a college education.

[Common Sense Party]

84. Amen to that. It is a ridiculous fiction to think that 100% of Americans

should go to a 4-year college.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. I'm not buying this argument that parents don't have time

And I am disagreeing with a lot of my good friends here who I rarely disagree with. But in my experience, I have had plenty of parents who work 2 and even 3 jobs and lots of parents who are illiterate but they are able to help their kids. They find the time and they raise kids who value education. It's not impossible for any parent. I just don't buy into that.

[tbyg52]

28. If you are working hours that don't allow you time with your children,

then it *is* difficult if not impossible. We have custodians at our school in that situation. It is sad. We need more support for parents. Reproduction should not be limited to the well-off.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. I've had parents who worked those hours who managed

They came to school during the day and ate lunch with their kids. They devoted their days off to their kids. I had a kid one year whose mom had 5 kids no husband and 2 jobs. She gave each kid a day alone with her once a month. She was amazing woman and her kids were incredible.

It's not impossible. I agree we need to do more to support parents but they can be devoted parents without that support.

[tbyg52]

65. No, it's not impossible to do better than nothing, I agree.

But it is a *lot* harder.

On the other hand, I hear stories of parents with plenty of free time who still do a lousy job of parenting. Same attitude as people who adopt dogs and then abandon them the minute they become inconvenient, I guess.

[gleaner]

59. I didn't say it was impossible for every parent ....

I know some parents who work two and three jobs at minimum wage and still struggle very hard to see to it that their children have a better life. I'm not asking you to buy into anything, just to please consider that some people have lost hope. For themselves, their lives and their future. Even for their children's future. That is why the schools are so important. The consistency of a teacher, a learning plan a routine, a safe place to be for a few hours. But without funding how can a school offer any of these things? As a society we have a stake in well educated citizens. Sometimes though we have to make an extra effort to insure that we get them. Lately that has been missing as we see concern for profit increase and concern for people decrease.

[radical noodle]

62. Agree

Yes, there are many reasons. One common thing I hear over and over is that parents do not want their kids to be responsible for anything they do wrong, and it seems to be found in all income groups and levels of education of the parents. One advantage that charter and private schools have over public schools is their ability to make kids and parents take back the responsibility.

Still it's true that poverty, school funding, neglectful and abusive parents, and the value parents put on education have a great deal to do with the performance of the students.

Thanks for the welcome! :hi:

[sandnsea]

13. And yet strategies like Harlem Children's Zone

are attacked by some teachers here too.

[tbyg52]

22. Teachers tend to attack things

that make them cogs in the machine and bash them while expecting miracles.

F'er instance - I mind one school system (charter, I believe) that gives teachers cell phones and expects them to be available 24/7. If you expect me to do that, I expect to be paid like a Wall Street executive. Yes, I and other teachers care about kids, but we're tired of being manipulated and bashed on that account.

[sandnsea]

23. YES Prep

Yes it is a method to remove excuses for kids not doing homework. It goes along with a college-bound culture, which most teachers at DU disagree with too. And if you were a teacher at this school, and it was a merit based school, then you would get paid more when the methods worked.

http://www.edutopia.org/yes-prep-reforms-strategies-tips

[tbyg52]

25. Hmph. How *much* more?

For Wall Street executive pay, I would consider it.

That's another problem - if teachers expect to be paid well, they don't care about kids. So goes the mantra.

http://scout.wisc.edu/Projects/PastProjects/NH/96-01/96-01-31/0043.html

[sandnsea]

30. My teachers did it in the 70s

Some of my kids' teachers did it. In a small town you can't really get away from it.

:shrug:

If you don't want to work at a school with after hours contact, don't.

[tbyg52]

31. Thanks, I don't. (And it is a good school.) nt

[sandnsea]

35. Still in Texas?

And supporting that mess of an education board you've got? I have no respect for any teacher who would stay in Texas if those policies stand.

And frankly, just like most parents think their local school is good, whether it is or not; most teachers think the same. Well, except when they're being held accountable, then they always knew the principal was running a bad school.

[tbyg52]

37. Exactly what makes you think that

a) I support them and b) I have the ability to leave Texas. Give me $1M and I'll be happy to look elsewhere. Actually, not really, given my particular circumstances - in spite of your snarky comment.

[kwassa]

38. who says that teachers at DU disagree with a college-bound culture?

You made this up, too, didn't you?

[sandnsea]

47. Go to the education forum

And you better back the fuck off because you're getting pretty damn close to stalking and calling me a liar.

[kwassa]

53. if you can't stand the heat ...

get out of the kitchen.

I am only asking you to back up your assertions, which appear baseless, from where I stand. You apparently feel that I am impinging on your right to slander.

You take offense at being asked to prove your statements. If you don't like the challenge, than perhaps you are the one that needs to back the fuck off.

I read the education forum. I get a very different impression, as you can tell.

[sandnsea]

55. Posted regularly

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=219x21828

[tbyg52]

49. *I* disagree with it, with caveats

We need good jobs for everybody, and we need everybody to be an informed, involved citizen.

That didn't *used* to necessarily involve college. I wish it were that way again, but that is wishing for a lost past, I guess.

[proud2BlibKansan]

82. I have had more than one principal tell us to give our phone numbers to parents

That's fairly common. And if the school was paying for the phone it'd be hard to refuse to answer it.

[tbyg52]

85. >>That's fairly common

Really? For *all* parents/students to have your home number? Or at least the number of a phone given to you by the school, as you mention, which would seem to me encouragement to parents/students to make liberal use of it? Wow. I guess this might make me sound like an ogre to some, but teachers are simply not paid enough to be expected to be available 24/7 on a matter-of-course basis (as opposed to emergencies or situations where it is the teacher's choice).

At any rate, I'm happy to say that has never been expected of me or anyone I have worked with - if I give my personal number, which I have sometimes done for specific reasons, nobody was telling me I *had* to.

[mopinko]

50. schools have to take kids as they are.

ferchrissakes, that is the whole reason for the public schools- to lift up all kids, no matter what. parents mostly do the best that they can. they don't always have the tools to do a great job. but the common schools have to lift up all kids, no matter the poverty they come from, or the faults of their families. assigning blame, pointing to the poverty around the school, to the struggling parents, is just bullshit shirking.
you know, the school my kids went to had free lunch numbers like those in ri, and families spoke 32 different languages at home. many of the kids spoke little of no english, and came here from places like china and afghanistan. they had parents that beat them, and parents that doted on them. but this public school, this common neighborhood school, still lifted pretty much all of them up. they competed in city wide academic competitions, and brought home at least one category win almost every year. their test score were excellent. and their faculty pulled together.

people rag on teacher because there is so much of this ass covering, pointing at all the reasons why they can't do a good job. well, then get the hell out of the way. it's too important of a job to have this kind of whininess.

[Starry Messenger]

17. Why do I read the comments at these offsite links?

Note to self: never read the comments. x(

Good article!

[tbyg52]

21. It's a whole other animal from civilian jobs

I was targeted early on by admin (coming from military and business), and learned. (Even though said admin had its issues as well.) It is a *whole* other animal, and a *whole* lot of new teachers don't get enough guidance and support.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dinger]

40. Some Suggestions

I'll be honest, I got these from my father-in-law. He is a Dem, a real Dem. He has never been a public school teacher, but we talk about a lot of things.
One thing he thought, was for schools to require 4 years of math. I'm not sure what the requirements are around the U.S. Of course they vary. Some schools around here only require 1 year of math to get a diploma. At least locally, maybe look at the programs schools have and adjust them accordingly, instead of firing teachers. We don't make those kinds of decisions anyway. Administration does.


Secondly, accountability without the same standards ain't shit. Apples for apples you know. If charters and private schools want my respect, they need to be held to the same standards with the same level of accountability.

[tbyg52]

42. >>If charters and private schools want my respect, they need to be held to the same standards

>>with the same level of accountability.

Amen. It's not the "let them try" part that bugs me, it's the "we'll let them off the hook for what's required of the public schools."

[Dinger]

44. It's That Simple Really

Thank you.:)

[tbyg52]

48. Thank *you*!

:hug:

[Goblinmonger]

66. Wisconsin DPI requires minimally 2 years of math to graduate

And, the problem I have with comparing public schools to private school is that the private schools can kick out kids that are a problem. Public schools have to deal with them all. I'm surprised the comparison for private schools to public schools isn't through the roof given the selectability that the private schools have.

And, yes, I am a public school teacher.

[tbyg52]

71. >>private schools can kick out kids that are a problem.

Bingo.

[radical noodle]

79. Or not take them in the first place

Why doesn't anyone else get that?

[radical noodle]

80. Gotta say

I'm glad I didn't have to take four years of math! :)