Personally I think the public option charade was cruel.

[mmonk]

It gave millions false hope. And then to pretend Kucinich and his ideas and his last stand were the problem just added insult to injury. A better than nothing bill with insurance company and hospital industry goodies thrown in for "negotiation" purposes could have been done without all that.

[DJ13]

1. The Predator Class likes playing with their food before they eat it

[mmonk]

10. Thanks, I needed that.

:spray:

[Allofus]

128. Because

I believe u man

[enlightenment]

29. Brill!

Thanks for that! :applause:

[EFerrari]

31. Yep.

[Ignis]

37. Ouch. The truth hurts.

:(

[tom_paine]

38. Well, that says it all quite succinctly!

[Nikki Stone1]

44. +10,000

You got that right!

[Canuckistanian]

54. You said it

Unless you're the lead sled dog, you don't get a great view.

[leftstreet]

55. +1

[valerief]

66. You got that right!!!! nt

[ShortnFiery]

68. Not unlike a cat batting around a wounded mouse.

The ruling political class in this country has ZERO respect for the Average Wage Earning American. :(

[scentopine]

72. Damn fine analogy - you've nailed it. -nt

[laughingliberal]

77. I can't think of a better reason for the whole charade. nt

[upi402]

88. +1,000,000 n/t

[DailyGrind51]

94. Perfect!

[Enthusiast]

99. Accurate portrayal of

the Great American Greedy.

[customerserviceguy]

101. Wow. Just wow.

Most intelligent thing I've read on here in days.

[Skink]

2. why. Now the public is behind expanding medicare after passage of this legislation.

it's a win win.

[Raineyb]

15. Win win for whom? The insurance companies? I'll admit it's a win for them.

For me? Not so much.

[Individualist]

21. Huge win for the insurance and pharmaceutical companies.

[Raineyb]

87. Exactly! And now the shills will try to convince us otherwise. n/t

[mmonk]

16. Only if it becomes reality.

[RaleighNCDUer]

20. If you'll recall, the public was behind single-payer, too.

60-70%.

We will not see it happen. It's a shell game.

[EOTE]

32. I'm fairly sure the public was behind this for quite some time.

The public was also for single payer, then the public option. The public if FOR many things that it will never receive. Congress made damn sure that the public wouldn't be getting much of what it wanted this time around. They'll simply continue to do so. This is not a good thing.

[Political Heretic]

47. Well seeing as how medicare is cut in this legislation, and the path set for a privatization push

I guess the public will be used to not getting what they want.

The public overwhelmingly wanted a public option as is not getting it.

The public will overwhelmingly want medicare for all and instead see it privatized.

[msongs]

3. support alan grayson's medicare for all bill and skip all this obama/dems corporate sellout nt

[mmonk]

17. I do. It's an easy sell.

[Ozymanithrax]

4. Public Option was never single payer, it was just a way to bring down prices...

of privatly owned health insurance companies by forcing them to compete. It was to be an expeirement in capitalism bring more competition into a marketplace where real competition is as scarce as hen's teeth.

[mmonk]

7. Yes, I know.

[mvd]

12. Which we will still need..

as according to studies, the bill may slow the increase in premium pricss but not stop them.

[laughingliberal]

75. True. I am skeptical we will ever see any more efforts to get a public option

once the bill passes. I am hoping I will be pleasantly surprised and proven wrong on this.

[NJmaverick]

5. It was only cruel if you were more concerned about destroying insurance companies

instead of helping people

[jgraz]

11. Destroying insurance companies IS helping people

What other parasites do you weep for? Ticks? Tapeworms? Viruses?

[NJmaverick]

22. So you don't disagree with my point, you just trying to justify it

Well to each their own. I prefer helping to hurting

[jgraz]

27. So let me get this straight... if you knew a terrorist was killing 45,000 people a year,

you would only help the victims if it didn't hurt the terrorist? Do you actually have a moral compass?

[laughingliberal]

79. +1000 nt

[Enthusiast]

100. +1 !

You have accurately summed it up.

[Tansy_Gold]

110. Exactly.

Because the terrorists are really helping the victims! See, it makes perfect sense!

:sarcasm: because sometimes it's needed here.



Tansy Gold

[Ken Burch]

92. Letting corporations win isn't "helping".

Why are you an apologist for Big Forma anyway? No corporation has ever been on YOUR side.

[sabrina 1]

122. Stopping greed at the expense of American lives, was your point

was it not? If so, then no, I too don't disagree with it. Why would you think any decent person would? Health care is a right and one day, when this regressive country we live in catches up with the rest of the world, it will be accepted as a right just as other civil rights have been over time. At that point, people will view this current system of a for-profit health care system, the way we now view other violations of civil rights in the past.

[treestar]

119. Much as one sees this on DU, the average Joe does not see

insurance companies that way. They may find them annoying as they would any large government bureaucracy, too. But they don't have the idea that the should not exist. DU is way too ahead of its time to be demanding things that are just way off in the far distant future.

[jgraz]

125. No other industrialized country allows for-profit insurance for basic healthcare.

None. Zero. Nada.

We're not ahead of our time, we're just not quite as bumfuck backwards as most of America is.

[mmonk]

14. Oh yes, the poor widdle insurance companies. I forgot.

[NJmaverick]

23. I prefer helping to hurting, I guess others don't

[jgraz]

25. No, you prefer corporations to actual human beings. Learn the difference.

[QC]

34. +1

[smokey nj]

41. +1

Have I mentioned yet today how much I love you, jgraz?

[Mithreal]

57. Certainly seems like it sometimes.

Corporations are people too, don'tcha know.

The mavericky one fights for their inalienable human rights. When ya think about it, it's quite corporate Progressive.

[laughingliberal]

80. Nailed that, Big Time! nt

[EOTE]

33. Just what value do insurance companies provide?

I'm rather interested in hearing your take. Insurance companies are almost single handedly making it impossible for the average person to afford decent medical care. And we should make sure not to step on their toes in order to make health care more affordable? Give me a fucking break.

[laughingliberal]

81. You mean other than to their shareholders? nt

[EOTE]

115. Well, to their shareholders and the CEOs.

I'm sure they're very happy with the way things are right now. The other 99.99999% of the country, not so much.

[Raineyb]

18. The insurance companies ARE the problem.

That's why other countries don't allow them to profit off of basic life sustaining health care. But I wouldn't expect someone with their head up their ass to understand that simple concept.

Obligating people to be raped by the insurance companies doesn't help people. Another concept you're unfamiliar with as you don't give a damn about actual humans in order to suck up the DLC and the rest of the corporate whores. (My apologies to sex workers who actually do work for a living unlike the whores of the corporate variety)

[NJmaverick]

24. So you don't disagree with my point, you just trying to justify it

I prefer helping to hurting, so I am not on board

[abelenkpe]

71. Do you honestly think

repeating the same tired line wins you any support or points?

[laughingliberal]

83. I think it's a very effective way to suppress the liberal vote thereby electing more Republicans and

making it easier for the DLC to enact their more right leaning agenda.

[Raineyb]

85. No you prefer helping corporations to actual humans. You made that clear a long time ago.

Which is why you have absolutely NO credibility whatsoever.

Go away shill. Don't you have a CEO to blow or something?

[spiritual_gunfighter]

113. Sometimes you wonder

if some people have been actually paying attention.

[Mithreal]

56. Typical. Misrepresentative. You could do both even if I ackowledge

your foolish either-or.

[laughingliberal]

76. Nope. The goal of the people who wanted a public option was exactly the same as President Obama

stated it during the campaign and before he decided it wasn't important anymore. The goal was to give people a choice in the exchange to provide competition for the insurance companies and force them to compete by keeping their premiums in line and providing good service. It was the best way to do that and it still is.

I saw the President quoted as saying he would work to help get a public option after the bill passes. Is he more concerned about destroying insurance companies? If not, why would he do that? And, btw, I expect you'll be fully supporting his efforts when they start? Right?

[northernlights]

104. I fail to see how forcing me to fork over some thousands of dollars to the insurance companies

so they can tell me to go eat shit and die the next time I am sick -- the same way they have done in the past, by the way -- is helping people.

Or maybe you consider helping people to be letting "some people" die of septic infection instead of running a CBC and putting them on a simple antibiotic.

If the latter is the case, too bad for you that my DENTIST put me on antibiotics (at my own expense, on top of my health insurance premiums) just in time, thereby actually saving my life instead of condemning me to an early death because of impacted wisdom teeth.

[sabrina 1]

121. And what would be bad about relegating Corporations

that have failed to do the job they were paid to do, and fatally so for hundreds of thousands of Americans, to playing a minor role in the health care system?

There is nothing I can think of that would benefit the American people more than stop these corrupt, for-profit Corporations from over-seeing what ought to be RIGHT as it is in every other modern democracy.

I don't understand any Democrat who supports the continuation of this corrupt, immoral system and actually thinks decent people should be intimidated by being accused of doing what is right, putting a stop to their greedy, for-profit use of people's health for their own personal profits.

[lwcon]

6. It was extra-cruel, because "public option" is meaningless

It refers to no fixed set of policies, and most progressives were duped into supporting it (whatever it was) instead of real reform like single-payer or socialized medicine.

[True_Blue]

64. It was classic bait & switch

[Renew Deal]

8. The entire "public option" debate was an enigma.

"Public option" had no real definition. It became an ideological sticking point for many, yet no one knew what it really was.

[lwcon]

69. So refreshing to hear someone else acknowledge that! n/t

[northernlights]

106. it became a simple 2-word slogan that would stick in people's minds

something Rethugs have mastered and Dems have failed at time and again.

Too bad the Dems finally learned to use the Rethugs very successful messaging technique...only to use it against their own supporters.

[Cal Carpenter]

9. It's a typical legislative red herring

Turn one aspect into this controversial, overblown thing - it makes a great dog and pony show, and then gives people the feeling of success, when really they just got a handful of stale crumbs. happens all the time. the question is, will people fall for it the next time, and the time after that?
:shrug:

[Marr]

13. It didn't give anyone false hope.

It gave people Hope©. That's a patented sedative, consisting of self-deception and a desperate desire to believe the system isn't broken.

[mmonk]

19. Good one.

[Echo In Light]

28. +1

[OnyxCollie]

43. +2.

[freddie mertz]

51. + 10000. Won't get fooled again, though.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

52. Don't forget the trademark on "Change"!

Fabulous post.

[Moochy]

63. Necessary Illusions

Of Hope™ and Change© Just enough to lightly crush the spirits.

[prairierose]

102. That is so true..what a great phrase.....n/t

....

[Tansy_Gold]

111. The Hopiate of the masses? n/t

[Javaman]

26. it's the ultimate insight into how things are really done.

There are always bills that come and go in congress that effect a portion of us or one particular group over another, but due to the sensitive nature of HDF, we ALL had a vested interest in it.

To me, it's always been a kabuki show. And as you say, a cruel one, at that.

The concept of what is good for the people lasted only about 1 minute, after that it was always about who can make as much money off this as possible and what is good for the corporations.

To me, the most cruel part of this whole charade is the much touted phrase, "we'll fix it later". More of the carrot dangling in front of those who are dying. "If you can just hang on a little more with that terminal cancer, we'll help you out, maybe, next year, when we find 3 minutes to introduce a "fix" that will fail because we all lack spines, so just hang on!"

What was also cruel was the use of real people with real problems facing death/bankruptcy due to their medical problems as poster children for this "reform". THAT single thing turns my stomach the most.

"look at poor Johnny, he's dying of several curable diseases, but if we don't get this watered down pile of a bill through congress, Johnny will die", but what is not said, is, that this watered down pile of a bill, still won't help Johnny.

We are wanton fools for health care "reform" and are willing to believe anything that is passed off as such because WE are all so desperate for a fix to the system that is so completely fucking us.

But I guess, upon reflection, the most cruel thing was they knew this was a massive emotional issue for every single American and they played us like harps.

[mmonk]

30. yes, I think desperation on the part of people plays into it.

[Maat]

53. Very well-put.

I agree.

[Mari333]

35. I remember Bama using it religiously during his campaign

to garner votes.

fool me once, etc.....

[librechik]

36. Did you hear the House put the PO in the final version of the reconciled bill?

now go celebrate--we have the votes in the Senate, too!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. It's from the P.T. Barnum School of Practical Politics and Corporate Welfare.

[Lorien]

40. They've used it as a tool to divide the Democratic party

you have to divide an army before destroying it.

[ProSense]

42. If it was a charade, why

did Kucinich hold out only to change his vote to yes?

"And then to pretend Kucinich and his ideas"

If if was a charade, what is Grayson doing?

[mmonk]

95. Party politics. Go against the party line while they are also

working a public campaign against you as well as twisting your arm in private can destroy your political career.

[Cleita]

45. From the very beginning not all parties who are involved in actually delivering

health care were allowed a seat at the table to present their case for debate and for the CBO to rate. If this had been a real bipartisan effort, those doctors who were arrested and ignored and not allowed to meet with Congress and the President would have had equal input. People, we were scammed.

[mzmolly]

46. I don't believe it was a charade and I would not count it out

yet. Didn't Lieberman supposedly kill it?

[gleaner]

48. You are right ....

It is cruel. And the repercussions are going to be even worse. They have treated us like idiots, and I am frankly very weary of being lied to and dismissed as if I had no right to exist.

[Odin2005]

49. It's Kabuki theater. All an act so they can tell us "at least we tried".

[freddie mertz]

50. I agree. It was cynical and heartless.

And I will remember it, long after this little drama has played out.

[merkins]

58. This is what the Democratic Party does?

"This is what the Democratic Party does; it's who they are. They're willing to feign support for anything their voters want just as long as there's no chance that they can pass it. They won control of Congress in the 2006 midterm elections by pretending they wanted to compel an end to the Iraq War and Bush surveillance and interrogation abuses because they knew they would not actually do so; and indeed, once they were given the majority, the Democratic-controlled Congress continued to fund the war without conditions, to legalize Bush's eavesdropping program, and to do nothing to stop Bush's habeas and interrogation abuses ("Gosh, what can we do? We just don't have 60 votes)."
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/

[leeroysphitz]

59. +1

[Marr]

89. That's exactly it, yep.

You could see what they were all about in 2006. The contortions Harry Reid had to do in order to "lose" were almost funny. It was clear then that they were trying to help push blatantly corporate legislation while acting like they opposed it.

Bush was so incredibly bad that the Democrats ended up gaining control of all three branches of government, with very solid majorities. And it made their game undeniably obvious to anyone who cared to look.

[leeroysphitz]

60. You're just mad because you couldn't keep your eyes on the middle card.

[Mithreal]

61. +1

[troubledamerican]

62. "Cruel"? No. It was poisonous.

[ChiciB1]

65. And Other Graphic Words To Explain IT All Can Be Used! I Can Think

of several, but I'm sure others can as well!

Why do I keep thinking ROME??? I MUST stop, surely it's not that bad!!!

[troubledamerican]

67. Toxic, Devastating, Rubicon, Epitaph, Autopsy

Yes, it's not THAT bad. There's another 5 years left on life support for Potemkin Democracy before the plane crashes into the Capitol Dome during a Democrats-only emergency all-nighter & the military coup is finalized.

[ChiciB1]

70. Youch!! You Forgot Treachery, Or Plain Old Lying! WOW, I Just Hit Some

wrong keys when typing "plain" and it came out PALIN!! That's weird!

Not that it has anything to do with this, but I had never thought about it!

[autorank]

73. k*r It was like watching people dance off a cliff

It covered six million people, wasn't public, and represented a PR charade that the leaders
used to hook those who never heard about what the coverage was.

[inna]

86. Yep. They used it as a "dangling, shining object" to trick and distract

the silly, gullible "progressives" and give them something to misguidedly clamor for - at the expense of a true reform (I'm thinking HR 676 with its 85 sponsors in the House) which was "taken off the table".

Gotta love our corporate overlords. :shrug:

[autorank]

124. We're the new serfs.

They want us to "know our role."

[icee]

74. Very. I keep re-relating it to myself. All the while Obama and Pelosi

were claiming offhandedly or deliberately they wanted a public option, they knew Obama had already told the enemy that there would be no public option. This is very, very overt. We should be doing something akin to storming the Bastille. Now wait for Sunday and the trick non-vote vote.

[glinda]

78. Dems will regret not passing something strong.

[zipplewrath]

105. Short memories

Unfortunately the party tends to have very short memories. How often have we had to remind folks that the NAFTA fixes never got implimented. That DADT was signed by a democrat.

[glinda]

112. good point n/t

[sabrina 1]

116. The repeal of Glass/Steagal also. And by a majority

of Democrats. Dorgan being only of seven Dems who voted against it. Then he was betrayed again on this bill. No wonder he's quitting.

Not to mention, just enough of them voting for every Bush war supplemental to make it pass.

And imo, the worst was, 12 Democratic Senators voting for the Habeas Corpus destroying Military Commissions Act, right before the 2006 election. We were told then, when the outrage looked like it might keep people home for the election, that we would 'fix that' also, as soon as we had a majority and anyhow, the 'other guys were so bad, it was better to vote for the lesser evil'. So once again, with the specter of a Republican majority facing the country for four more years, people held their noses and gave them a majority. And the only thing they accomplished for the next two years, was a watered down minimum wage bill. Impeachment was off the table, the FISA bill passed with their support. They still voted for the war, and we still have the MCI in effect with not much hope of 'fixing it'.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

82. it never should have been anything BUT Public Option or Medicare for All

but it looks to be an insurance bill.

[amborin]

84. cynical, heartless, cold, sociopathic

not all sociopaths are serial murderers; most are superficially charming, but callous and extremely manipulative; the U.S. populace was played

[Desertrose]

90. PO = bait & switch

Sadly that's all it ever really was...a distraction.

[miscsoc]

91. the lesson wrt to the whole public option thing is obvious

i.e. start off as far left as possible, since the politico-media complex will always denounce any reformist proposal from a democratic administration as extremist, and at best allow to pass only something way to the right of the original plan.

if obama had started out pushing a single-payer system (which had majority support iirc) he would have been able to pass some watered down compromise including a public option but permitting private insurance. Actually I genuinely believe McCain and the like would be promoting the public option RIGHT NOW as a "moderate" alternative to Obama's extremist agenda.

The leaders of American liberalism will never acknowledge this obvious shit, though. Never! The next democratic president (after romney, president of the united states frm. 2012-2020) will act just like obama. I swear in 2022 we'll be listening to a democratic president addressing some bipartisan summit about this same topic, earnestly reaching out to the opposition, praising their disingenous proposals...god help us

[NuttyFluffers]

93. it's a sign of an abusive relationship.

better the abusive relationship that physically abuses you and leaves you in penury or the abusive relationship that only emotionally abuses you and keeps you around as a trophy wife?

i have a better idea: how about no more abusive relationships?

[Dinger]

96. Yes It Was Cruel

It's going to be a rough, rough ride.

[daleanime]

97. Quite...

:spank:








Need a mugging smiley.

[waronbanks]

98. I think its time to stop pretending

That this government in any way cares about we the people. Our government...republican and democratic parties...has been taken over by the corporate mob. The media is under their control and push the corporate agenda constantly. From Obama on down the majority of our elected leaders are now pushing the corporate agenda. Oh they try to hide it in distorted language and lies but the agenda is clear.

Thats all this was...an exercise in corporate domination of the message and agenda. It worked as usual and will continue to work towards its goal of keeping the middle and lower class enslaved with lower wages and no benefits. with few exceptions both parties are nothing but corporate whores protecting and pushing the corporate agenda. To think otherwise is completely delusional in light of the evidence before our eyes.

[PA Democrat]

103. Bait and switch.

[fascisthunter]

107. we need a populist movement to force out the corporate goons

there is no other way... as long as these representatives of the elite are in government, we will see the same or worse in the future.

[Cal33]

109. And a high percentage of these corporate goons are

sociopaths, you know, people with criminal personalities. We have too
many sociopaths holding high positions, both in private industry and
in government. In short, we are being governed by Al Capones. It's
just that too many of us don't realize it.

[fascisthunter]

120. absolutely, and it's a pandemic of sorts

Seems as if all the fascist around the globe are in cahoots with each other.

[Cal33]

108. Maybe so, but do we really know anything about all the

political in-fighting that, I presume, has been going on?

[LynneSin]

114. Any crueler than Kucinich saying he'd vote "NO" and then changing his mind

Health Care reform is long from every being finished but this bill is a good start.

[branders seine]

Both parties in DC

show utter contempt for the public.

If you are not ultra-wealthy or a corporate donor, you do not matter. period.

[Missy Vixen]

117. I can't remember any time in my life I feel more demoralized

about politics, and about the hierarchy of the Democratic Party. There is no way to change it. Those in office have shown they don't care what the voters think, they never will, and we'll keep voting D. It's a never-ending "good cop, bad cop" scenario.

THEY KNOW how many people are hanging on by their fingernails. They let this go down anyway. After all, it's all about what they have, and what the rest of us don't.

I'd like to thank the poster that brought up the copyrighted "hope" and "change". I'm wondering if we're going to see another photo op with Sasha and Malia over the weekend, or maybe another set of photos of Bo, huh?

:eyes:

[treestar]

118. this is politics. I'm not going to get emotional about it and call it "cruel"

If I don't get exactly what I want. Politics is the art of the possible. People are going to mention things they want to try to do and not be able to get them all.

[sabrina 1]

123. How about getting nothing? In a way, I feel sorry for you

trying to sell that old cliche about politics. Most Americans, like me eg, are just ordinary people and not political operatives or even political junkies.

When a politician promises something to get him/herself elected we do not like it when they completely flip-flop once they get to DC. And we are not fooled by the excuses. Most of us wouldn't take those excuses from five-year olds. If they can't do the job, they should not waste our time and money and support by telling us they can. It's that simple.

If you go into politics with the attitude that because of politics, you shouldn't expect much, then why are bothering to vote at all? I thought we were promised to change all of that. Was Obama so naive he didn't know what you just posted? Or was he lying?

I know that political junkies and others paid to try to excuse both parties, think that the reasoning you just posted worked, in 2006 or 2008 and it was persuasive because Dems did win. Do not be fooled by that. It had nothing to do with them winning. Most of us never bought the excuses, we are not dumb as DC insiders believe.

What happened was that we decided that Bush was so bad anything was worth trying, even after we saw Democrats support so much of Bush's agenda. It was necessary to let them have control over all three branches and see what they would do with that. Well now, their bluff has been called, and the old talking points such as : 'lesser evil' 'politics is the art of..' or 'don't let the perfect etc. etc.' all those little talking points just make people angry.

Democrats have a choice, either come up with new and better talking points, or new and better Democrats.

[Bluebear]

126. kick

[Allofus]

127. Yeah Man

U dont say!