REMINDER: Poll - Only 37% of Dems Support Health Care Mandate Without Public Option, Medicare Buy-In

[ihavenobias]

I have to remind some of this December poll which is much more relevant than the already infamous "3% poll" that ignores the fact that (apparently) most liberals who support the current healthcare reform bill don't know what's in it. At least that's the only way to explain the enormous discrepancy between the below numbers and the http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7937897|3% talking point>.

"...only 33 percent of likely voters favor a health care bill that does not include a public health insurance option and does not expand Medicare, but does require all Americans to get health insurance. Slightly more Democrats -- 37 percent -- favor the idea...

Meanwhile, if the public option and Medicare buy-in are added, 58 percent of people support the idea. The number of Republican supporters drops to 22 percent, but independent support rises to 57 percent and Democratic support to a whopping 88 percent..."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/18/poll-health-care-reform-w_n_396990.html|Poll: Voters Reject Health Care Mandate Without Public Option, Medicare Buy-In>

Or maybe people believe (incorrectly, as I http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7933996|explained here>) that this will build a solid foundation to improve upon.

[ShortnFiery]

1. +1

:thumbsup:

[polpilot]

36. Well...so what. 37% will give us something to 'build on.'

he he he!!

[ihavenobias]

84. I really hope that's true, although as I explained above, I think the opposite is true.

I'm still waiting for someone to provide a thoughtful response as to why they disagree with my take on the "we can fix it later" idea.

[Dawgs]

2. Fail.

:rofl:

[ihavenobias]

3. ? n/t

[kenfrequed]

15. 'splain

If you can manage something beyond a snatch of cyberslang and a smiley it might actually lend credence to your presence here.

[ihavenobias]

64. Come to think of it

he must mean those trumpeting the 3%/97% poll have failed, in light of the context the previous poll provides.

[Raine]

46. How so??

WHY do you think it's so hilarious that the Democrats go against the will of the people ... what's funny about that? :shrug:

[timeforpeace]

4. If it was supported by a majority the shenigans wouldn't be going on.

[CTyankee]

18. I really don't believe that is so. There were several polls that point to the same conclusion:

people wanted a PO. Our lawmakers ignored the people and went with their donors against the wishes of the people. It is sad but true, IMO...

[ihavenobias]

79. They claim they don't have the votes.

Obviously they could easily prove it if they would just http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/take-the-damn-vote_b_478142.html|Take The Damn Vote>.

[CTyankee]

85. Yep, they are totally corrupted and in the pay of the insurance companies.

It is clear as day to me. They really don't care what the voters want. If they are voted out of office, so what? They just get cushy Washington lobbyist jobs, which is nicer and a lot better paying than their old jobs plus they get to live it up in the Capital? Fun and glamor. What a deal!

[RaleighNCDUer]

41. There is a difference between the majority of the people and the

majority of our legislators.

Just another sign that our legislators are out of step with those they are supposed to represent.

[yourout]

5. And I am one of them.

[yurbud]

7. me too.

[Lorien]

10. As am I. nt

[yurbud]

6. too many Dems would rather be corporate compliant represent their constituents

or even win reelection.

[yurbud]

8. DU POLL: Medicare buy in vs Senate private insurance mandate?

so far, ZERO DUers have said they prefer the Senate bill--ZERO!

Make that zero bigger:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7938499&mesg_id=7938499

[Lorien]

9. Yep. I don't back the corporate extortion bill. The MSM is trying to make it sound

as if only the repugs are rejecting this POS bill. The fact is that 60% of Dems are also.

[tridim]

12. Actually it's not the media, it's people like you who are spreading that bullshit.

Maybe you are the media? I don't know you.

[Larkspur]

29. It's people like you who hurt the pro-HCR bill campaign

by calling people stupid or part of the enemy's camp. It's typical loser Democratic mentality.

What you people need to do is frame the HCR in terms EVERYONE can understand and if you have links to the section of the bill that supports your frame, please post them. But People like you think that framing isn't important and that is why you People antagonize those whom you need to support the HCR bill.

So until you learn to frame the HCR bill in terms EVERYONE can understand, stay quiet. You are hurting your cause more by antagonizing those whom you need support from than helping it.

[tridim]

32. HCR has already been explained by the President and other Democrats.

We're way past that point in the debate.

[Hello_Kitty]

89. Um, no we're not. I'm guessing you don't talk to rank and file voters much.

I do and most of them have no clue what's in the bill.

[Larkspur]

105. You like this bombshell today which refute the Obama-bots pro-HCR crusade

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7951114

[RaleighNCDUer]

44. You want to look at that again?

"The MSM is trying to make it sound as if only the repugs are rejecting this POS bill. The fact is that 60% of Dems are also."

and your reply: Actually it's not the media, it's people like you who are spreading that bullshit. Maybe you are the media? I don't know you.

What is your argument - that the poster is actually saying that only the repugs are rejecting that bill? Since that is not only the opposite of what the poster is saying, but it is the very subject of what he is saying I guess you are a bit confused.

Drinking while posting can be hazardous.

[CreekDog]

11. In 1965, support for Medicare was about the same percentage

so...

[ihavenobias]

20. Thanks for commenting, it allows me to respond.

-Were there http://www.fiercehealthcare.com/story/eight-healthcare-lobbyists-every-member-congress/2010-02-25|Eight healthcare lobbyists for every member of Congress> in 1965?

-Was there such a large percentage of the American people that had been brainwashed into despising any and all government after decades of talking points, making future improvements (involving government) incredibly unlikely?

These are rhetorical questions, because we all already know the (sad) answers.

[CreekDog]

25. Then it's amazing support for these bills is as high as it is today

:hi:

[ihavenobias]

28. If they were good bills that fundamentally changed the system, or created a foundation to do so

I'd agree.

Sadly they're not.

[RaleighNCDUer]

52. That support is for what the public HOPES this bill will do,

not for what it actually does.

The medicare prescription benefit was HOPED to solve a lot of problems. What happened was a program that cost more than twice what the worst projection anticipated while still leaving a HUGE donut hole that was not covered, creating entirely NEW problems.

The support is an indication of the level of desperation out there. People grabbing for a lifeline in the flood, even though they know it is ten feet out of their reach.

[county worker]

47. There wasn't the same insurance industry as there is now.

In 1965 most people had employer paid health care and many had it as a retirement benefit due the fact that unions negotiated for and won those benefits. Medicare was for those who did not have health care after retirement which was around 65 yrs of age. Our family doctor worked 12 hrs or more a day and didn't try to collect if you couldn't pay. Doctors did house calls then also.

The Reagan union busting era started us down the path to where we are now. I'd bet that if unions were still strong we would not be having this debate today. Kaiser Permanente was started by Kaiser Steal for it's employees at their Eagle Mountain mine and the steal plant in Fontana, CA.

It is very difficult to compare today's situation with 1965 in MHO. I was just out of high school had had my first real job. I was in a union working for a grocery store at $10/hr as a dairy and frozen food manager until I got drafted a year later. I had paid health care then and in the Army but I'd rather have not needed the Army health care I got.

[NJmaverick]

13. Reminder 97% of liberals support this bill

[demosincebirth]

16. Not here at DU.

[emulatorloo]

17. DU is a bubble. No more representative of reality than a teabag rally or freerepublic n/t

[Uncle Joe]

66. What do these bubbles have in common?

Could it be an intense interest in politics and policy?

If that's the case wouldn't these bubbles have a better grip on "reality" than say the apathetic public at large.

I'm not suggesting D.U. freerepublic or the tea baggers share common solutions but they do share common anger; that being of the people losing power.

I believe this across the board anger is legitimate and shouldn't be lightly brushed aside as just being bubbles.

[Turborama]

86. Good point about the "apathy bubble"

I'd add that, In my opinion, their anger is not just about losing, per se. The fact that their old white guy was trounced by a young black guy is the fuel to their angry fire of loss.

[Uncle Joe]

90. I agree in that being an element with some of them, Turborama.

But I believe it's also related to a general feeling of lost power, it used to be one person; usually the man worked and could support a family, now many families are either single head of house hold or both must work to maintain their standard of living and that standard has been slowly eroding since the late 60s or early 70s.

I believe there are many dynamics contributing to this decline and general feeling of silent rage, fear and despair in a "perfect storm" kind of scenario.

Here is a partial list.

1. The cluster of major assassinations during the turbulent 60s.

2. The divisive conflict of Vietnam.

3. The rebuilding of much of the devastated world bombed to oblivion after WWII, thereby increasing competition against American Industry.

4. Nixon's circumventing the law, abuse of power and resignation; for his true believers that was traumatic as well, for the Democrats it was also Ford pardoning him.

5. The oil shock of the early 70s and subsequent overt inflation throughout that decade, inflation has been more covert as of late but just as real.

6. The insane, illogical and immoral "War Against Drugs" turning what should be a medical, educational and/or personal privacy issue in to a criminal one leading to a world record breaking number of prisoners here in "the land of the free," and in my view a draconian police state.

7. The massive tax reductions of the oligarchs shifting the burden to the middle class or government running huge deficits.

8. Illegal immigration encouraged by some employers looking for cheap labor and the rapid change to U.S. demographics as a result.

9. The rise of hate radio and it's brainwashing effect on some of the populace.

10. The diminished and in some cases corruption of union power.

11. The consolidation of the corporate media and their direct propaganda assault against the American Peoples' best interests via dumbing the people down either by omission, obfuscation, slander, libel and the ignoring of critical issues while promoting sensational ones as diversion.

12. The upheaval created by NAFTA, with little or no corrective action taken.

13. The development of former third world nations becoming powers in their own right leading to more competition, ie; China, India, etc.

14. Bush vs Gore and the disenfranchisement of the American voter.

15. The accelerating decline of the world's ecosystems combined with sensitivity to humanity's ever growing footprint.

16. Global warming climate change and the emotional stress created by needing to adapt our society to that looming catastrophe.

17. The health care crisis fed in large part by the need for "health" insurance corporations to profit from the American Peoples' injury, illness and death.

18. 9/11 and war (s) based on lies.

19. Corporate dominated government and scads of corruption, Enron, Blackwater, Halliburton etc. etc. etc. combined with the multi tiered justice system for regular Americans and those too powerful for the government to effectively deal with.

20. Banksters bailout.

21. The emotional upheaval of the Internet's effect on business and life whether pro or con.

22. The predominance of corporate supremacists in both parties and their playing both sides against the middle instead of honestly staking their positions on the issues.

I believe all these things and more have contributed to the general public unease, fear and anger, the corporate media propagandists have manipulated the peoples' emotions as to who or what is to blame, while magnifying fear and hatred all to suit their own narrow corporate driven agenda.

[NJmaverick]

19. Then I guess many DUers are out of touch

[walldude]

40. Yes you are... blind too..

Good luck with "fixing" the bill. :rofl:

[NJmaverick]

48. So you consider Skinner "blind and out of touch"?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7936590#7936660

[ihavenobias]

50. I've already responded to the "we can fix it later" argument.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7933996

[freddie mertz]

98. What a typical tactic coming from you.

No shame, no bottom too low.

[ihavenobias]

23. I think you entirely missed the point of the post.

WHY does this latest poll show that 97% of self described liberals support the bill if only 37% supported it a few months ago, UNLESS they don't realize that there is a mandate and no public option or Medicare buy-in?

So when you repost the 3%/97% talking point, it ignores this damning fact.

[NJmaverick]

26. the key is "a few months ago", your data is out dated and obsolete

[ihavenobias]

27. In other words you KNOW most supporters don't know what they're supporting.

I appreciate the confirmation.

[NJmaverick]

30. Much has changed over the past few months including the bill

so your spin would be inaccurate

[ihavenobias]

31. But the few months ago poll was specifically related to things relevant to THIS bill.

So to quote you, that "spin would be inaccurate".

[NJmaverick]

33. If I go far enough back in time I will find a time when a majority of Americans

supported banning mixed race marriages.

[ihavenobias]

34. Straw Man, Red Herring, Non-Sequitur...pick one. n/t

[NJmaverick]

35. Pick them all they are all equally false

face it your position is a bad one.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. And I suppose when there's a Massachusetts debacle on a national scale

you'll see it was because this bill was "too liberal."

Yeah, yeah, I've seen that movie before--repeatedly since 1980 or so.

[NJmaverick]

49. Is the "debacle" a wish or a prediction?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

62. A resigned sigh

I guess some people have to learn the hard way.

[ihavenobias]

104. I'll join you with my own resigned sigh. n/t

[laughingliberal]

56. The bill still has a mandate without a public option

I can't see anything which would have moved these numbers. I suspect many who support the bill are still, largely, unaware of the details of it. There are probably a lot out there who think the bill represents the plan Obama campaigned on.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

63. I KNOW there are such people

I've talked to them. They like single-payer, but they think it's not necessary to join any campaign, because "Obama's taking care of that."

[Hello_Kitty]

88. I personally know a lot of Dems who support it and like the mandate

Of course, they have good insurance through work that they pay little out of pocket for and think it will be the same for everyone else.

[kenny blankenship]

42. You're one of those people who delights in saying Liberals are insignificant among the electorate

and so what liberals think doesn't matter. Now you tell us we do matter.

[NJmaverick]

54. You missed the point. The point is current polling data disputes the outdated polling information

provided by the OP

[ihavenobias]

58. Let's bury that argument once and for all.

The question was about support for reform with a mandate with OR without a public option/medicare buy-in. Nothing more, nothing else. There is NOTHING that has changed in the last 3 months to that end.

There is NOTHING that has happened to make the poll irrelevant, despite your claims. If you still insist otherwise you need to support your argument. Do you think the 97% are all or mostly aware of the mandate and lack of public option/medicare buy-in? If so, why?

I would hit eject now if I were you, but if you have some substantive answers, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

[bvar22]

59. Until you ask them...

...if they support Mandates without a Public Option.
Then over 65% say "NO!"

Sadly, due to the year long Kabuki Theater, most Democrats don't KNOW what is in this bill.
They only remember what Obama promised during the campaign.

[laughingliberal]

60. Yep. And a few years ago I would probably have been among them, going about my life working

60-80 fucking hours a week to try to keep my head above water and believing my Democratic president was doing battle with the Republicans on my behalf. Now as long term unemployment sets in I have plenty of time to tease out the details of what our elected officials are really doing. Isn't that the way, though? Those who are being hurt by it will not know until they, also, find a lot of time on their hands and they have become among the invisible, voiceless.

[bvar22]

70. The rank and file Democratic party went along with Clinton too...

...when he promised them that NAFTA would be "Good for the American Workers".
The wing of The Party (The Democratic Pro-Working Class Wing) that were raising the warning flags were ridiculed then too.

We were right then.
We ARE right today.

[laughingliberal]

72. +1000 nt

[ihavenobias]

94. This very short Perot clip is amazing in retrospect...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkgx1C_S6ls

[Capitalocracy]

81. uh 89%.

3% oppose, 89% support. According to the poll. Which doesn't specify WHICH bill, just says "the President's plan". And doesn't mention the Senate bill or the House bill or the public option or the mandate or any specific aspect. And only 18% of those polled described themselves as liberals.

Weak sauce, my friend. The poll quoted here is much more specific, and I would be surprised if the numbers have changed much if you were to conduct a similar poll.

And if they have, it will mostly be because people have given up and decided we can't do any better. Which is why they're all going to stay home and let the Republicans win in 2010.

[Hello_Kitty]

87. Wrong. The poll you are citing has liberals supporting it at 89%.

Which is very high but not 97%.

[Lorien]

97. No, they don't. Look around you. Turn on Maddow, Olbermann, or Stewart

the vast majority opposes a bill that includes mandates but no public option.

[icee]

103. What!? That's pure baloney--and you know it.

[OhioChick]

14. K&R n/t

[shotten99]

21. Mandate? Like what we have for Social Security,

Unemployment Insurance, schools, roads, and least of all, Medicare?

[ihavenobias]

24. All of which are largely or entirely government, not-for-profit programs, unlike private insurance.

[laughingliberal]

43. There you go! The point that has been made over and over:

The support for the mandate goes way up with a PUBLIC option included. The overall support for the mandate is way less than half the population without the mandate.

But, the important thing is we'll get to have a nice signing ceremony in the White House rose garden.

[FiveGoodMen]

22. K&R

We've fallen victim to repub-style framing.

We think it's about winning a vote rather than fixing a problem.

Worse, plenty here think the pukes are against this bill. Actually, I think they're celebrating already.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. I think they're celebrating in their back rooms,too

They'll come out and tell everyone that this corporate welfare bill is "socialized medicine" (I wish!) and they'll campaign against it endlessly.

The fact is, no one, not the Republicanites, not the MSM, not the mainstream Dems, has been truthful about what is actually in this bill. The Democratic-leaning people I've talked to THINK that this bill is European-style public health insurance. They're surprised and dismayed when I tell them that it's not.

The Dems have not been upfront on this issue. Their public statements make it sound as if everything's going to be wonderful when this bill is passed. They have pointed to sob stories as reasons why this bill must pass, even though the bill won't help many of the people whose sob stories they refer to or won't help them until four years from now.

Of course, wat if they had been upfront about this and said, "We're going to make everyone buy private insurance just like in Massachusetts, and all the policies are going to have high premiums and high deductibles, but don't worry, folks, we're going to subsidize those expensive policies--as long as you fit a millionaire's idea of what's affordable. Oh, and if you're over 50, sorry, but you're going to have to pay 3 times what younger people pay." Do you think they'd have even 37% support?

[FiveGoodMen]

53. "Democratic-leaning people ... THINK that this bill is European-style public health insurance"

Bad news indeed!

Explains a lot, though.

All the energy has been directed toward beating the other guys and none toward analyzing the probable outcome of passing this.

Framing.

[kenny blankenship]

80. Sweet Zombie Jesus- are they in for a shock!

[laughingliberal]

57. Really nailed it in this post. It's interesting to see how well the RW talking points of socialism

and government run health care gave the Conservadems cover to pass this corporate giveaway. Those trying to warn of the real problems with the bill were drowned out.

"We're going to make everyone buy private insurance just like in Massachusetts, and all the policies are going to have high premiums and high deductibles, but don't worry, folks, we're going to subsidize those expensive policies--as long as you fit a millionaire's idea of what's affordable. Oh, and if you're over 50, sorry, but you're going to have to pay 3 times what younger people pay." Do you think they'd have even 37% support?"

That's it, exactly! That is the bill in a nutshell. But no one could hear it between the teabaggers' idiocy and the cheerleaders' obscuring.

[SandWalker1984]

100. I've spent the past 2 weeks asking people what they thought of the Senate bill.

Most did not even know the basics of the bill. When I explained it would involve mandates to buy private insurance with some subsidies, most became angry. They had no clue about the mandates!

Either people have not been paying much attention to what has been going on in Washington over the past few months or they get their news from mainstream sources who are going to great lengths to hide the true nature of this HCR bill.

[democracy1st]

39. thanks for posting I can't understand how in the world the Obama admin

can trust big insurance,this is what has me so confused about the pres.

[theFrankFactor]

45. Are there any Liberals or Progressive on DU? Hello?

This bill is shit.

There was extreme prejudice in perusing this from the very beginning.
(dis-allowance of single payer debate)

References to single payer and the public option have been attacked removed or made impotent by DEMOCRATS.
(blue dogs and other DINOS)

IN MY OPINION:
The public poll numbers have been deceptively used to portray the American public as AGAINST HEALTH CARE REFORM which is a LIE! The majority is against a SHIT BALL MANDATE TO FUNNEL MORE MONEY TO PRIVATE INSURANCE COMPANIES!

The public SUPPORTS both the public option and/or single payer.

WHAT SIDE AM I ON?
Do I favor passing this piece of shit that is destined to be little more than a band aid at best and a catastrophic failure at worst or would I rather pressure Congress and the President to create a decent piece of legislation that includes either a public option or the BEST THING THAT COULD HAVE BEEN DONE FROM DAY FUCKING ONE- single payer?

I am prepared to support Dennis Kucinich and the latter. And so you know, I stand to suffer greatly from the failure of health care reform. I have a chronic condition that is life threatening and requires regular testing and medications. My insurance premiums are scheduled to rise from the current COBRA amount of $750.00/mo for my wife and I to $2000.00/mo plus co-pays and meds.

This whole song and dance is a disgrace to my party. It should inflame the majority of our party base into serious action. There are no acceptable excuses for this squandering of precious political capital by our party and our President. We are exposed as a sham, the straight man party to Republican corporate domination. We had almost everything going into this administration and have become a laughing stock and punks.

[kenny blankenship]

55. Fewer and fewer.

[harun]

91. I have been feeling the same lately. I think the percentage is much less than

it once was.

[ihavenobias]

106. I'm glad you also mentioned your pre-existing condition.

People need to understand we're not people living in a bubble taking an idealist stand because it has no consequences for us. Quite the contrary.

[Wetzelbill]

51. k and r

[Hippo_Tron]

61. The vast majority of the country also supports the flag burning amendment

Fortunately, in neither case, does the vast majority care all that much.

[Capitalocracy]

65. The Dems made a TERRIBLE choice and the Repubs will take advantage of it

All the polls agree: Everyone hates the mandate, the majority want the public option. But since the Democrats chose to go with the mandate and not the public option, and the Democratic establishment has made it perfectly clear that that's the direction they're taking, the Republicans can make a correct blanket statement that "the people are against the health care reform bill", as they are currently doing. Their implication, of course, is that people are also therefore against a public option, which all of us in this thread know is a lie, but they will use this blanket statement to include all health care reform.

The final result: The Republicans and the blue dogs and corporatists have killed the public option, the Republicans now get to oppose an unpopular bill, and they will make HUGE political points when the bill fails as it is designed to do, and leads to a bigger and more out of control insurance industry. With fiasco after fiasco like this, Obama and the Democrats will lose big-time in 2010 and possibly in 2012, unless they can show even just one piece of decent legislation. They think they can squeak this shoddy reform through and ride it through 2012, and that plan is going to backfire big-time. All they really need to do is listen to their constituents. We want public health care, like every civilized nation has.

Big K&R for this post.

[Skittles]

68. I AGREE

I believe repukes are now in a win-win situation - this entire HRC has been a leader-less FIASCO

[Lorien]

96. Yep. This bill is the kind that every repug would have liked to pass themselves

but they never could have gotten away with it; those on the Left would have strongly opposed them for the insurance bailout, while those on the Right (working people and Libertarians, anyway) would have opposed the mandates, as would many Progressives. But because it's coming from "the party of the people" there's a false sense of security that it's really just A-OK; that we probably just don't fully understand it but we'll be better for having it in the end. But once it's passed that it; there will be no changes, no "building upon it", it won't be a starting point-it will just be what it is. I hope that I'm proven wrong on that bit, but I fear that it will ultimately be a millstone around the party's neck for generations to come.

[Uncle Joe]

67. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, ihavenobias.:thumbsup:

[Faryn Balyncd]

69. K&R - As "Democratic" politicians head over the cliff they are leaving Americans unrepresented.

[berni_mccoy]

71. Um, the 37% poll was from DECEMBER!. The 3% Poll is new. LAME, just fucking lame.

[laughingliberal]

73. The bill still has a mandate without a public option

I don't think support for that idea has increased since December. And the bill has not changed since it passed in December.

[apocalypsehow]

77. Spot-on. I am amazed at the brazen contempt for the truth this OP has repeatedly demonstrated. n/t.

[ihavenobias]

78. You have yet to post a substantive rebuttal of anything I've posted.

All you've done today is take stupid, cheap jabs (in another thread). No facts, no substance whatsoever (we should leave those tactics to the right BTW). So I'll ask you one last time and put you on the record:

What specifically has changed that makes the December poll results somehow invalid? The length of time is NOT an accurate response, because as I and others have repeatedly explained, the CURRENT bill has a mandate without a public option/Medicare buy-in.

We all eagerly await a substantive, well thought out response (not a cheap insult, not an emoticon of rolling eyes or laughter, a real, fact based response).

[pleah]

74. K&R

[rucky]

75. Does not supporting the idea = being for killing the bill?

because I can't say I support the idea, but I'm not for killing the bill.

[leftstreet]

76. K&R

Thanks for posting this!

[ncteechur]

82. Try again. Your data is old and irrelevant. Pass the bill!

[ihavenobias]

83. Be more specific and I'll be happy to change my mind.

What specifically has changed that makes the December poll results somehow invalid?

The length of time is NOT an accurate response, because as I and others have repeatedly explained, the CURRENT bill has a mandate without a public option/Medicare buy-in.

[CherylK]

92. K & R

:kick:

[Solly Mack]

93. k/r

[Rhiannon12866]

95. K&R. I favor the last option, too...

What they're proposing now will make nobody happy, and with good reason. And if this passes, they'll be too afraid to revisit it, probably for decades. Nobody will have the courage to "built on it," after all we've been through with this. And nobody will be better off. It may be a political victory, but a Pyrrhic one. :-(

[SlingBlade]

99. K & R And just wait until people have to break their check books

out and write one of the five monopolies a check with ever raising premiums and
land mines designed to deny them proper medical care.

That number will drop significantly. This corporate monstrosity will make Clinton's
foray into right wing politics with his "Big Gubmit is dead" statement while throwing
millions to the corporate wolves look like a wild eyed liberals version of a Peace Dept.

It's a party killer, Simple as that.
What will be left is the hollow core. Those who have never knocked on a door for a
democratic candidate and never will, Those who have never manned a phone bank let
alone a barricade. This is the future of the democratic party post Obama.

We'll fix it latter ?
Yea sure, Just like they did with Nafta,War and Assassinations,Handouts to Wall Street and Big Insurance
Tax Cuts for the wealthy,Warrantless Wiretapping,Detention without Charges or Trials,Whitewashing Torture and Corporate Malfeasance,Expanded Faith-Based Initiatives and More Nuclear Power.

They'll fix it later !

[JVS]

101. Prepare for the november bloodbath

[20score]

102. Now you're on a roll! K&R!