Hate to say it, but Tweety was right on with deem and pass.

[CTyankee]

He said that if Dems insist on up or down voting in the Senate but deem and pass in the House, Dems are being inconsistent and are politically vulnerable from repub attacks.

It seems to me that even if sure, it's OK technically in the House, we are vulnerable on the hypocrisy issue.

Also, it seems to me that, despite that argument, if the public option were included in HCR, it would be "worth it." We could withstand the temporary loss due to the "hypocrisy" charge as the price for the public good of having HCR with a public option. But this bill doesn't do it. So we are vulnerable on a bill that just doesn't get us where so many Dems want to go. Is this a price we want to pay for what we get?

Just my 2 cents here...

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. The Republicans have used deem and pass over 100 times.

So fuck 'em, and fuck Tweety, too.

[CTyankee]

4. Watch the republicans play this. Let's face it, they have the media in their backpocket,

with a few exceptions. I'm sorry but I see this as a real problem for Dems.

don't you know that it doesn't matter if repubs did it , too? History has been rewritten in this country. Where have you been that you don't know this?

[Pirate Smile]

8. If it isn't this then it will just be something else. It's not like they will give us credit for

doing it the other way. They are going to scream bloody murder no matter how we do it. Don't worry about them.

[Political Heretic]

11. I don't live in fear of Republicans. Thanks for your concern.

[CTyankee]

29. Fine. I applaud you. Just don't indulge in wishful thinking because it doesn't work. nt

[cascadiance]

34. ... and are calling us now "Deemocrats" too. That will be the new name, the "DeemocRAT" party!

[bvar22]

52. Oh , well...

if the Republicans did it, it must be OK.


Same for torture...Its OK because Saddam did it.

[warm regards]

54. The Republicans have used it...

so it must be okay.

[Tx4obama]

2. The House and the Senate have 'different rules'

You can't expect the House to do everything the same way as the Senate, they have different rules in place.
Just like The House can vote electronically and The Senate doesn't.

The House is VOTING on the Senate bill and 'the fix' at the same time.
They are VOTING.
Everyone needs to stop listening to the republican spin on this issue.
The Republicans never had a problem with 'deem and pass' when they used it in the past.
Republicans are only trying to cause an uproar with the American public every way they can.

The 'deem and pass' procedure IS part of the House rules.
It is legal and fair game ;)

[CTyankee]

31. I would agree on the "legal and fair" thing. But do you think it will be portrayed to the general

public that way? They are going to say it's Democratic hypocrisy and we'll hear that 24/7. OF COURSE, deem and pass is legal. But that is NOT the issue here.

This is all about influences voters. If they get it into their heads that Dems are doing something devious and repubs are all nice and clean, we've got a problem...

I'd say, do it if there were a public option but beware doing it if there isn't ...

[Tx4obama]

33. All the democrats have to do is point out ALL the times the Republicans used Deem&Pass

We can't let the republicans win arguments every time they whine.
The President has show them his balls and everything that he thinks that needs to be done has to 'get done'.
When the republicans whine and holler, we Democrats just need to holler LOUDER! ;)

[CTyankee]

35. Well, whenever we do that it doesn't get as much press as the pubs do!

It is just a torrent on one side, never on ours. So people watching MSNBC or Fox get a very skewed view.

Of course, we don't care. Why should we care? The facts are on our side!

but when do those facts really come out? There are MANY posts on DU bemoaning this lack of publicity, right? "Why don't they tell the TRUTH about...." You know what I'm saying, don't you?

I think it's fine to use deem and pass for a plan that includes the public option. I have such qualms about this plan, tho...

[PCIntern]

3. Fuck Tweety...

he said in 'dressing down' Rep. Grayson some weeks ago, that no way reconciliation would ever be used to pass HCR. No way...he implied that he knew more than Grayson 'cause he had 'worked for Tip O'Neill (like anyone could ever forget that...also 'Cheeeeeney') and that Grayson was hallucinating.

Yeah...I see....

[BlueIdaho]

5. You're average American's eyes will just roll back in their heads

If the republicans try to explain their "outrage" over D&P. Its such inside the beltway shit that only Tweety and the rest of the chattering classes could ever care about it.

[Pirate Smile]

13. People will just see it as voting for the Health Care Bill - period. They wont care what the House

rule was that it was approved through, blah, blah, blah.

It is a vote on the Senate Bill & fixes. This wont stick. Everyone knows they are voting either yes or no for the HC bill. Republicans squawking about it wont last past the signing ceremony.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

6. So....

I'm a voter with a pre-existing condition and I now have access to health care.

I'm going to vote Republican because I didn't like the parliamentary procedure the House Dems used to save my life?

Tweety. Seriously, Dude. That's is some wicked shit you've got there and just isn't right to not share...

[PCIntern]

15. FUNNY...DUzy...!!!!

[tallahasseedem]

18. +1

:D

[arthritisR_US]

20. LOL....this was wonderful, best post of the day IMHO. Thanks! :-) n/t

[librechik]

21. once again, Tweets finds a wasp nest in the road and has to check it for angry wasps

Yup--they're in there!

[CTyankee]

26. I really don't know what health care you will receive from this and at what cost.

It is of utmost concern to me as a Democrat. I wanted to expend political capital on a health care plan that included a public option for people like you. It would be worth it to do it with deem and pass for that. I wonder about this plan.

Tell me what this plan does for you? I really don't know and would like to...

thanks...

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

53. That was a hypothetical statement...

I'm covered by insurance that is paid half by me and half by my employer.

However, I have a client who is currently covering himself and his children on a self-paid plan (he's a self-employed realtor). His wife has no health insurance coverage because of pre-existing conditions.

Based on their income, they would be getting family coverage (including the wife) for about $2,000 per year, which is about a third less than what they're paying now for coverage that leaves the wife completely exposed.

So that's a pretty good deal for them.

[CTyankee]

58. It certainly IS a good deal. That's encouraging.

I've heard so many people here say that folks with pre-existing conditions WILL be able to get coverage but it will be so expensive that they can't afford it. Whatyou are telling me makes me feel much better about this bill...I still don't know how a private insurer could cover this woman w/o losing money...

[Pirate Smile]

7. If it is how it needs to be done to get the votes, they should just do it. Hypocrisy charges? Well,

what's new. I think we'll survive. Let's not get on Nancy for doing what she has to do in order to get the bill passed. Don't miss the forest for the trees.

[tularetom]

9. If HCR passes, and the republicans whine, nobody will care about the process

If the bill turns out to be a dud, their sniveling might have some effect.

On the other hand, if it turns out to be successful (as I fully expect), that's all that will matter.

That inside baseball crap may be important to dipshits like tweety, but actual people care about results.

[Political Heretic]

10. So what? Republicans were inconsistent for eight years, that didn't stop them

from ramming policy through.

[napi21]

12. That's not a valid comparison. There are different rules for

each chamber. The House doesn't HAVE Reconciliation or filibusters, & the Senate doesn't have Deem & Passbut use the Reconciliation to bypass the filibuster.

It's also foolish for any Dem to worry aboutbeing vulnerable to Pub criticism. THEY WILL CRITIXIZE NO MATTER WHAT! A week ago they were saying that iliation would destroy the Senate and that it has never been done. Now their new topic is Deem & Pass. They're saying this is made up by the current Dems & has never been done before either. BOTH ARE LIES!!!

I ssuggest all Dems, including US here on DU, stop worrying about what the Pubs say or do. The Pubs life work is to hammer their opposition, so let them do it alone.

[ljm2002]

14. I do not remember having this discussion...

...during the 8 years that GWB held the Presidency, even though the process was used something like 200+ times by the Republican Congress.

Funny, that.

[CTyankee]

38. And WHY do you think that is? Because nobody in the media MADE it an issue!

Well, guess what? They're making it an issue NOW!

And doncha think they're going to hammer this thing right into November,2010?

So what the hell difference does it make that there wasn't this discussion THEN? It is NOW!

Don't you get the new reality?

[ljm2002]

57. Agreed about the media...

...the MSM continues to function as the mouthpiece of the Republican party, no doubt about it. But people are getting wise to it. Now what we need is a few Democrats who can frame an issue, and they need to hammer home the point of how many times the process has been used when the Republicans had control of Congress, and for what.

If the Democrats have any sense they will take this issue and just turn it right around on the Republicans, dare them to make it an issue, and hammer them with inconvenient facts every time the topic comes up.

[Marr]

16. Let's be honest. No one gives a shit about hypocrisy.

People like winners a whole lot more than they hate hypocrites.

[librechik]

17. WE are hypocrites?

Look, we need to start ignoring the endless whine that is the RW. They will make that noise no matter what we do. We could all switch parties and become Republicans, but they would still complain we weren't pure enough. They are NOTHING but an opposition party. They have no programs of their own. The Dems should take every advantage they can--as the Republicans would do if the tables were turned.

[Jennicut]

19. Eh, the Rethugs would criticze my Grandma for existing if they could.

Inside baseball stuff is not something voters care going to care about at the end of the day. Especially non political junkie types.

[onenote]

22. isn't the hypocrisy on the other foot?

The repubs have used deem and pass. And it still requires a vote. On the other hand, the repubs are preventing a vote in the Senate.

So, no, Tweey wasn't right.

[Hippo_Tron]

23. Voters don't care about procedure, D&P won't provoke outrage, BUT...

I hope that House Dems don't plan on trying to explain to their constituents how they didn't technically vote for the senate bill because they voted for it to be deemed and passed when they voted for the reconciliation bill. That will go over about as well as John Kerry saying he voted for it before he voted against it.

[Bolo Boffin]

24. The filibuster is the gateway drug here.

My new signature, as well.

[CreekDog]

25. Do you think we won't be called hypocrites if it's not passed this way?

i'm sorry but if you do, are you under a rock or something?

"death panels" did more to damage the health care bills politically than anything else thus far and they weren't even true!

if there was something dishonest about this approach, you would have a point, but there isn't anything dishonest about it --in fact, it's more true to what the House is attempting to do than to pass the bills separately.

some of you are just fraidy-cats about every little thing. the simple rule about "oh the Republicans are going to say this if we do that..." is that if it's a good thing --do it anyway. they've already accused supporters of every conceivable thing already --unconstrained by facts or reality.

i fail to see anything meaningfully wrong with passing a resolution that says, "yes the Senate bill has passed this chamber and please note that with this vote the following changes apply to it..." as opposed to "yes, the Senate Bill has passed this chamber" and "now here are the changes that apply to the bill we just passed".

makes no difference but all things being equal, i'd rather my vote for a problematic Senate Bill be instead for a bill that fixes it's problems while supporting the better parts of it...rather than one or the other.

[CTyankee]

27. On the merits I agree with you. But the politics can be deadly. And that is where I think

Tweety has a point.

Please do not "wish away" this argument because it is the argument you will face from now on. You should understand that IT DOESN'T MATTER if the Republicans did it! Itjust doesn't! They always get away with it and we don't. Don't you get that, at long last?

We don't win the media wars. You can tell me my "concern" is noted or some such, I am telling you from a long history of seeing politics play out over my long life, I "know" when I see a political loser. Maybe it will be a winner later, but today it is a loser, IMO and we will see the evidence in the fall 10 elections. I hope and pray I am wrong. i want to be wrong. Nothing is beyond my fondest wish! But I am saddened by too many years of political reality to know something ain't right from the start.

Having said that, I also am hopeful that people will "forget" their objections to this double standards in the house/senate. I want that with my heart and soul. I just don't think it is something we can expect...

[CreekDog]

30. I didn't note your "concern"

nothing like that.

More concisely, my point was that Republicans can make us look like hypocrites no matter what we do and frankly, even if what they say is true, the alternative method can still leave us just as open to charges of hypocrisy. And if they lie...well all bets are off.

So what I'm saying is that you see the two methods of passage as being distinctly and significantly different and I don't. If they don't use "deem and pass", Republicans will call Dems hypocrites for avoiding the conference report and using Reconciliation instead --this point is just as valid, perhaps more valid than what you are worrying about.

The cost of doing it the other way is just not worth it, morally or politically because the two methods aren't really better or worse by those standards.

[CTyankee]

32. Please understand that the press do not make the fine difference you make.

It is lovely that you do this so finely and delicately for our reading enjoyment. It is a pleasant distraction from my daily noise and interruption. So, let me just say that I am hopeful that this interruption by the media will not influence the public one bit. I will bet on the average citizen not to be influenced, as you say he/she will not be, by the pervasive media bias on the part of the repubs. I have seen them already buy into the repub. ideas of "center right" country and some such, I can't wait for what they will serve up with this thing.

[spanone]

28. the republcons will attack NO MATTER WHAT WE DO. fuck 'em

[tavalon]

36. You know what? We're going to be chastised by the holier than thous

no matter what we do. We are only vulnerable to the "hypocrisy issue" only because we don't have the spines and brains to frame it correctly. It's basically the pot calling the kettle black. And Tweety, well, he thought he saw a puddy tat. :eyes:

[CTyankee]

46. Yep, I agree. We don't have too many tigers, more house cats.

Pretty tame stuff. Until and unless we are able to rise up and fight, like Alan Grayson and Bernie Sanders, what the hell are we doing? Stop wasting our time, folks. Just pack up and go home...

[Cha]

37. tweety is wrong so many times and I'm

not giving in to his call for a self-fullfilling prophecy.

Fuck the hypocrites.

[Canuckistanian]

39. Oh, right

Vulnerable to repub attacks.

Like they would let up if the "deem and pass" rule wasn't used? They'd only find some NEW, FRESH outrage and the hand wringing would start AGAIN.

[CTyankee]

45. So, by your logic, let's just hand them another outrage for their media machine?

And for no public option, at that...

Really, not what I signed up to fight for...

[Canuckistanian]

48. No, you miss my point

Even if "deem and pass" were banished forever starting tomorrow, the GOP would manufacture some OTHER false outrage to try to stop this bill.

I really feel for Harry and Nancy. They just can't win, no matter what they do.

[CTyankee]

49. well, we'll see how this plays out. I hope everything comes out OK.

I don't really see it...I see a long road ahead with "deem and pass" being the stick to beat us with but, well, so be it...we do this and then we get what we get.

So DON'T COMPLAIN, ok?

[Grand Taurean]

40. Repubs used this method a hundred times.

[CTyankee]

41. Yes, and did the media call them on it? NO? Oh dear, why not?

How on earth could this happen?

You see what can happen when the media is only on one side?

Hey, shit happens, doesn't it?

[MaxPlancker]

56. I think it is because of the state of the economy

and the cost of the bill. This use of deem and pass is being used on the most expensive and pivotal piece of legislation that was already in the media before any talk of deem and pass. It is legitimate news. I am not a fan of "they did it too". If its wrong, its wrong no matter who does it.

[rufus dog]

42. I just don't get the issue

The other way to do it would be to hold a vote, pass it, then take the corrections and pass them.

If they were sneaking something in without a vote I have an issue.

To me it seems like streamlining the process and taking some of the bullshit out.

[Cha]

43. "All Nonsense"

Josh Marshall | March 16, 2010, 6:35PM

"The procedure every(GOP)one is so up in arms about is called a "self-executing rule." How many times did the Republicans use it the last time they controlled Congress, 2005-06? More than 35 times! And the Democrats? They complained about it then too, though to the best of my knowledge there were no claims of treason."

"Norm Ornstein has the story."

<links>
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/03/all_nonsense.php

[CTyankee]

44. Of course, don't worry, be happy.

Just don't be surprised when it comes back to bite us in the ass in November.

The republicans do it too? Quite right and good show! Good debating point! But does it matter in the court of public opinion, with the repub spin machine to make it look like an evil government takeover of health care?

Think about it...

[Cha]

47. Hey, you gave your "2 cents" and I gave

mine. I'm pointing out facts and you think it's don't worry be happy time? Nonsense.

[CTyankee]

51. No, you are right. But right doesn't get us might. Wish it did.

We'll hear about all the lies about this process and then we'll spout the facts and then nobody will hear them and then we'll complain that "facts have a liberal bias" and feel good and satisfied that we told 'em, by damn, and then...

[deaniac21]

50. I think it's called murder in November.

[karynnj]

55. But the same is true of the Republicans - who fight up or down in the Senate

and demand it in the House.

In addition, ALL the Houses votes are Up of down. What they are demanding is that they vote on the Senate bill as a stand alone bill. Now, they never required that everything have a standalone bill before.