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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 01:13 PM
Original message
1843 Stars in the Night Sky
“I see much here to remind me of my former condition, and I confess I should be ashamed to lift my voice against American slavery, but that I know the cause of humanity is one the world over.”
--Frederick Douglass; Ireland; 1843.

Usually, I try to post an Irish history essay on this forum for St. Patrick's Day. This is not only a day late, but will be a bit different than usual …..which is perhaps only fitting, as we are in unusual times. I am a bit hesitant, in part because I am still in a weakened, reduced “post-surgery” state, and I recognize that I will have difficulty in connecting the ideas that are flowing through my mind into anything particularly meaningful.

Usually, when “spring is in the air” here in the northeast, I enjoy walking out to my pond in the middle of the night. Since a long walk was not an option last night, I instead settled on sitting at the picnic table on our patio, gazing at the beauty of the stars. And, as I habitually mutter to myself in such circumstance, I heard myself saying, “billions and billions of stars.”

I had read through DU:GD before stepping out, in part to see if a person who posted a negative response to my most recent OP there had commented on my response to him. He had interpreted my OP as an attempt to discourage serious debate – to even censor – on this forum. I had responded by using Malcolm X as an example of how people can debate, but still be civil. There had been no response. But there are billions of stars.

I remembered once hearing Carl Sagan say that he believed that “The Autobiography of Malcolm X” was the most important American book published. Then, I remembered reading the above Douglass quote, in Sagan's 1996 book, “The Demon-Haunted World.” Sagan had pointed out that Douglas had an evolving consciousness: he had toured Ireland before the Great Starvation, and recognized the oppression; he had been an outspoken opponent of the US policies of violence and theft against Native Americans; and he “was the only man of any ethnic group to stand in support” of Elizabeth Cady Stanton at the 1848 Seneca Falls Convention.

Last month, I had read another book that quoted Sagan. Timothy Ferris's “The Science of Liberty” (2010) notes, “ 'Science is far from a perfect instrument of knowledge,' wrote the astronomer Carl Sagan. 'It is just the best we have. In this respect, as in many others, it's like democracy.'” (pages 103-104)

Ferris also quotes theoretical physicist Lee Smolin: “Science is a kind of open laboratory for a democracy. It's a way to experiment with the ideals of our democratic societies. For example, in science, you must accept that you live in a community that makes the ultimate judgment as to the worth of your work. But at the same time, everybody's judgment is his or her own. The ethics of the community require that you argue for what you believe and that you try as hard as you can to get results to test your hunches, but you have to be honest in reporting the results, whatever they are. You have the freedom and independence to do whatever you want,so long as in the end you accept the judgment of the community. Good science comes from the collision of contradictory ideas, from conflict, from people trying to do better than their teachers did, and I think here we have a model for what a democratic society is about. There's a great strength in our democratic way of life, and science is at the root of it.”

This nation's “Founding Fathers,” as imperfect as they definitely were, viewed the form of government they were creating as a great experiment. In the time since, there has been some greatness, much good, much bad, and some absolutely terrible chapters. As a consequence of all that has gone on in this curious laboratory – good, bad, and indifferent – we find ourselves in the current conditions that people on this forum discuss, debate, and argue about. And this forum is, of course, a Petri dish on a table in the larger laboratory of American society.

The culture growing in this dish is not the same as what was found here when I joined in 2003. It couldn't possibly be, for no living organism remains exactly the same. Indeed, if nothing else, there is a difference (at least in theory) between having the Bush-Cheney administration and a republican Congress, than having an Obama-Biden administration and a democratic Congress.

In my own opinion, for what it is worth, there are many more moderate democrats participating here, compared to “the good old days.” I have no problem with that (at least in theory). What I am concerned with is the rudeness and hostility that is frequently found in the debates on the merits of various opinions concerning approaches to the science of politics. I am a Frederick Douglass Democrat. A Malcolm X Democrat. I do not confuse my opinions, nor my set of values in which those opinions are firmly rooted, as representative of the majority of democrats today ….and certainly not the majority of Americans today. Yet that neither diminishes nor expands the value of my opinions. I'm satisfied to have an opportunity to offer them, and have them compared to what others – especially those who are more moderate or conservative – are offering.

In terms of the health care debate: I do not have the perfect answer, but I had invested my efforts in the 2008 elections in large part with the belief that there would be significant changes that would benefit those people I know as family, friends, and neighbors. None of those people has expressed anything more positive than disappointment with the democrats in Congress. Some believe that President Obama lacks the leadership skills necessary to get results when facing the entrenched opposition to reform. Others question if he was sincere in trying.

I spoke recently with an aunt and uncle; they both experienced the Great Depression. He fought in Korea. They had the opportunity to go from poverty to “middle class” through hard work. Both are what I consider FDR Democrats. They are intelligent, well-educated people. And they both identify Dennis Kucinich as the person in Washington that they trust the most. Thus, it amazes me when I read some of the ugly things I read on this forum about Kucinich, and the insulting comments directed towards those who admire him.

It's important that those of us who have values that produce “leftist” beliefs and positions continue to participate in this great experiment. Not just in this Petri dish called the Democratic Underground, but throughout the entire laboratory. Some others may express contempt for our opinions, or discount the value of our contributions (until they need our support). But that's okay. We need to keep our eyes on the prize, and focus on what is important. And that is my St. Patrick's Day message for 2010.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent.
Perhaps we are the stars as ideas.



The Voynich Manuscript

Explanation: The ancient text has no known title, no known author, and is written in no known language: what does it say and why does it have many astronomy illustrations? The mysterious book was once bought by an emperor, forgotten on a library shelf, sold for thousands of dollars, and later donated to Yale. Possibly written in the 15th century, the over 200-page volume is known most recently as the Voynich Manuscript, after its (re-)discoverer in 1912. Pictured above is an illustration from the book that appears to be somehow related to the Sun. The book labels some patches of the sky with unfamiliar constellations. The inability of modern historians of astronomy to understand the origins of these constellations is perhaps dwarfed by the inability of modern code-breakers to understand the book's text. Can the eclectic brain trust of APOD readers make any progress? If you think you can provide any insight, instead of sending us email please participate in a fresh online discussion. The book itself remains in Yale's rare book collection under catalog number "MS 408."

ARCHIVE: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html

PS: Proud to be first to K&R.
PPS: Ecstatic to read you, Mr. P.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Thank you.
I don't mind saying that, after more than one hundred people had clicked this OP on, but left without any response, I was wondering if I had posted utter nonsense. I was tempted to delete it. And when I came back to do so, I found that you had responded. Much appreciated.

I've noticed a couple of your OPs "disappearing" from DU:GD recently. I wish that didn't happen, because discussion/debate on the dynamics and influences of the JFK administration is not "conspiracy theory" ..... unless things like the Bay of Pigs, the Cuban Missile Crisis, Vietnam, and President Kennedy's American University speech were. I appreciate your efforts here very much, and I know that many others feel the exact same way.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. The anger and testiness is not just here
but I am seeing it elsewhere. I am working to get my own self more centered so that I don't add to whatever anger I happen to come across from other people. Reading Marshall Rosenburg's work with some friends and hoping some of that positive stuff sinks in eventually. People are afraid on so many levels. Money, jobs, health, home, school and then there is the expectation that so many bring to what this presidency is supposed to do for them personally.

I still like our President and tho I don't agree with several things he has said and done so far, I still trust him. I have been pushing the reform with everyone I know, I've made the calls, I've read what I can get my hands on and this week, I realized that even I am not sure what to think about it at this point. As for the everchanging face of DU, I see people I trust here such as you and a few others get attacked for not being pure enough... I am just posting less and tending to read only the posts of people I knew from early years here. And maybe that's just how it is now. Once this bill passes and we see what the bill actually says and does... hopefully it will settle down a lot.

I always appreciate your posts tho I may not respond on each. I am glad to see you up and writing about something other than boxing again. :)

Be well.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Right.
There is an increase in tension at most levels of our society. DU reflects it. Road rage does. Rudeness in grocery stores does, too. It's a strange time.

The boxing threads are more common when my younger son is here. We talk, and he can write in the same basic style as I do. But, he's living in another state right now.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. The Really Sad Thing Is That People Are Giving Up
So much info regarding Bush/Cheney coming to light but people say they won't do anything to them. there is no accountability. Financial reform will be weakened by lobbyists, sunshine has a shadow over it and so on and so forth. I found myself hearing that sort of thing the other day and what struck me most about it was I had no response. I couldn't defend it and I couldn't say it would get better, that justice would be meted out, that wrongs would be set right and that the wishes and needs of the people would be acknowledged and respected.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. I think I have been having the same reaction
It's either no response or I feel the anger start to rise. Working on it. Not sure if I am that impatient or what is going on. I do have hope that this bill is not as messed up as many think it is. And am not sure at all why these criminals have been allowed to walk. I don't understand.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Anger Is Rising
Good way to put it. That's how I feel when others say it will never change and I have no retort at my disposal, can't point to a good example of it. For one thing I do want the dems to stop giving in on issues. We get nothing in return and are left with a shadow of what was intended.

A 'No' uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a 'Yes' merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble.
Mohandas Gandhi
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. But I am NOT giving up...
I may retreat a bit now and then but I am never going back to the lackadaisical/borderline apathetic person I was pre-911. I still think we have made a difference... Just wanted it to be bigger than it now appears to be.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. You have a wonderful way of relating to my own sentiments.
Wishing you a rapid return to good health.

BTW, watched Michael Collins yesterday after reading one of your most recent posts touting the movie. It was a perfect way to feel a bit closer to the kinship I share with those in Eire.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. That is a heck
of a good movie. I really enjoy it. One of my relatives worked with Collins, then served in the new government. It was a curious era.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. My uncle, a somewhat famous writer and cohort of James Joyce and Sean O'Faolain
Edited on Thu Mar-18-10 10:08 PM by HCE SuiGeneris
taught at Trinity for many years. I lived in Howth Head for a while back in '73. We used to take the train down to Dún Laoghaire (to visit him) on Sundays and drink Guinness and eat crisps.

I had been eagerly awaiting the release of Michael Collins to DVD, but had let it slip past my not-so-sharp mind.

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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. Hi
and Heck

I am laying lower than a snail. I look at DU occasionally and lucked out to see you had posted today. Spring is here, but I think it may be another year before I feel free to sprout again. Hope you are feeling good.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well put and I am glad to see you posting. nm
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Thanks.
I have a good dozen issues that I plan to write OPs about in upcoming days. I'm hoping that people here will find them of interest.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. I am sure we will. Keep postin. nm
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PuraVidaDreamin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. I don't recognize this Democratic party.
and I don't have the faintest idea how to help change this situation. I feel like I have lost my drive.
Had planned on attending some of the larger protest in DC next week, but why?
You see- these politicians DO NOT CARE about anything but their own selves, and their financial futures.
Nothing any of us do on a grand level matters.

I'm just going to focus on local issues- growing my own food, buying local- helping local people.
The rest is just too disgusting.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Very interesting.
In my opinion -- for what it is worth -- what you describe as focusing on local issues is the most important thing that you, I, and others can do right now. It's not a step backwards. It's a step forward. And it is one that, when enough of us do exactly that, puts us in the exact position we need to be in, in order to take that second step.

And you are 100% correct: those elected officials in Washington and the state houses do not care at all about the common folks in this country. They are not concerned about "local" politics and social issues. I'll take it a step further: the vast majority of them do not have the slightest bit of "good" in them .... no conscience, no heart, no compassion, and no feelings of the type that are required for an individual to begin to reach their positive human potential.

You haven't lost your drive. You simply do not want to waste your efforts. That's not only okay, it is good. When you begin working on growing that food, turning the soil and feeling the sun's energy, your batteries will fully re-charge. You are doing what is best. Thank you for that, and keep up the good work!
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
29. + 100
Perfectly stated.
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PuraVidaDreamin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
30. Thanks for that H20 man
I've been feeling "somewhat" guilty about this decision. I had planned
on getting arrested in some civil disobedience down there, and I reserve the right
to change my mind- if it ever looks as though something that mattered was emerging
I'd be right there.

I'm actually very excited about re-focusing my energy. I was behind a car the other day at
a red light and my gaze was directed to a Buy Local bumper sticker, (which I have on my car too)
The light seemed extra long, but It was like a light bulb went off in my head- Everything starts
locally!

Thanks for the kind words- They were very soothing, and somewhat needed.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Most Excellent, H2O Man !!! - K & R !!!
Love me the Sagan...



But... my favorite quote is from Einstein... goes something like this:

"The more knowledge I gain, the more aware I become, of how ignorant I am."



:grouphug:

:hi:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Great quote!
I love it. Thanks!
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thank you, H2O Man.
I read through the thread and saw you debated deleting your OP. I'm glad you didn't. I was one of those click, rec, and no-reply people. I sometimes get stuck in old-school netiquette where we monitored the static to message ratio and typing, "Yeah!" "Right" "I agree" was wasted bandwidth.

I do a lot of head nodding. Too bad no one can see it. :( :)

I hope you're feeling better and healing well and quickly.

This is a wonderful OP. Thank you, again.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. With patience,
the smallest of snails can climb the largest of mountains. And although right now, a small snail is likely to be a heck of a lot faster than me, I do have plenty of patience.

I do wonder sometimes if what makes sense to me, makes sense to anyone else?
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I can answer only for myself, though I see many on this board who
have responded to you now and in the past - your writing makes sense to me - until you go all boxing, then I've gotta get a translator. My boxing background was many, many...it was long ago and my dad had to get on his knees to be short enough for me to swing at and the gloves were just a wee bit smaller than my head. :D

For me, your writing not only makes sense, it resonates. I'll leave it at that. This is the wrong forum to say much beyond that.

I wish you much patience.

*gentle* :hug:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. "I do a lot of head nodding." Hah! That was the rattling I heard. ^_^
:hi:

:pals:
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Like a maraca in mud. Rattle, squish, rattle, squish, rattle, squish.
:D LOL

:hi:

:pals:

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. LOL!
You've been stalking me again!

~~gigglesnort~~

Such an accurate description of me...

Thanks... I needed that laugh....


.......now, about my monitor screen.... ^_^

Hope all is well! :pals:
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Thank you for the well wishes.
They are needed these days.

Glad I could make you laugh. Sorry about the monitor. :evilgrin:

:pals:



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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
14. I hear from many that the disdain and certain attacks if one expresses anything other than a
conservative Dem approach has made it very difficult, if not impossible, to participate.

It is a type of censorship.. there are things and people we dare not post about, no matter how carefully, unless we want to be flamed. Two of those subjects come immediately to mind.... Nader and Edwards. I hesitate to even mention them as an example, because of the resulting flames.

Many have told me they can't stand it anymore and are leaving. It doesn't seem to matter.

What that will mean is that the censorhip will have the desired effect... the more one is a Malcolm X or Douglass democrat and expresses it, the more one will feel like a misfit here, and eventually it will be all centrist and conservative---hardly an "underground".

And that seems to be the way it is wanted.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. In the foreword
to A.S. Neill's classic "Summerhill," Erich Fromm discusses two types of authority. One is well-known: overt authority, the type that takes steps to punish individuals who break laws or violate rules. The police will arrest you if you rob a bank. The teacher will make you stand in the corner if you talk out of turn. Systems that place too much focus on overt authority create adults who are willing to raise their hands and ask permission to go to the bathroom. These individuals vote republican.

There is a second type of social authority: anonymous authority, which doesn't really threaten an individual with punishment, per say. Instead, it sends the message of "be careful! you don't want to be different than the group!" It demands, gently, a conformity that risks the lose of individuality. Herd mentality.

In my opinion, in recent years, there are far more moderate-to-conservative voices on this forum, who attempt to exercise that anonymous style of authority. Don't be too liberal. Don't be a true progressive. Don't talk to those leftists! Get in line. After all, you don't want to be different than the group.

It is unlikely that a forum such as DU could exist for many years, without some people from the more moderate-to-right side of the democratic party coming here to try to get DUers to donate, volunteer, and vote for their candidates. That isn't a bad thing. But, if they think that true liberals and progressives are going to get in line, and back things that they know do not benefit them, that is a serious error in thinking.

Those liberals and progressives (and leftists) who are uncomfortable with the "get in line" business need to consider options besides leaving DU. We birds of feather need to stick together. We don't have to participate on every thread, respond to every error others make, or react to every/any insults. Instead, we should be focusing on what has been, still is, and can continue to be the best about this forum.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I understand what you are saying, and agree.... as far as it goes.
I have long agreed with Jean Vanier that it is needed in this tough world to create pockets of community... of understanding.... of compassion. I don't see many people able to even consider that. I am fortunate that I can find it with my Indian friends.... it refreshes and rebuilds me.

However, we all have limitations, and dealing with the kind of authority we have both identified takes away energy.... whether or not we respond. It still diminishes us.

There are many who have left because of it, and their absence diminishes the forum, even tho that is not acknowledged.

There are many I miss.... their words and soul added so much stability.

We haven't gotten to rock bottom yet... there is more destruction to come. Some of us have to take cover.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
32. My attitude is express yourself regardless of the insults or anger directed against you.
Afterall, no one hears anything in silence. If your position is correct, at some point it will become apparent. And after all, sticks and stones ....
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. While you are correct ... at least I want to believe you are correct.... the other side is
It takes IMMENSE strength to keep it up.

I know you and others will argue with that.... but we all have our limits, and if we are honest, we will admit that.

ALSO, just so you know.... today I am terrified... it is snowing hard, and is supposed to continue for at least 36 more hours. I could very well end up either snowed IN my car, or snowed OUT of my car. Either way, I am in danger.

Given that, can you begin to understand that some of us don't have the baseline security to take the kinds of risks that you are advocating?

Walk in the shoes.....
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
17. Thanks H2OMan
Please get well soon :grouphug:
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-10 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
25. Another Gem H2O Man....another star in your vast sky !
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
31. A very good St. Patrick's Day message
:toast:
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
37. can't believe i missed this yesterday. excellent!!
:applause:

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