Which helps progressive America more? Buying a Toyota Prius or a UAW built compact

[divideandconquer]

Very complex question. Does the gas mileage and alleged reliability of the Prius outweigh helping out a union that has been instrumental in helping progressive America, Keeping rewarding Toyota for using "guest workers" and shelling out approximately $8000 more in price. What could that $8000 go for? Haiti? Fighting global warming? Electing progressives?

BTW, The Ford Focus is built in Wayne, Michigan, Chevy Cobalt in Lordstown, Ohio and the Jeep Patriot, Jeep Compass and Dodge Caliber are built in Belvedere, Illinois.

[Jackpine Radical]

1. Ta hell with 'em all.

Lord, won't you buy me a Mrecedes Benz?
(My friends all drive Porsches...)

[vadawg]

2. i think for most people the point is what helps them and their family more

so what if a focus is half of the cost of my truck and is built in america, what if i dont want a focus but i want a toyota, what if the focus would not get me home or allow me to tow stuff etc, there are so many variables in why people buy certain cars and everyone has their own reasons...

[divideandconquer]

4. No one can deny that buying a car has turned into a highly political act

[depakid]

5. err.. I suspect about 90% of people would deny that factors into their decision

[vadawg]

8. yup, you gotta be insane if you just take politics into your decision

would you really by that focus even if it did not meet your needs just for some political reason..

[divideandconquer]

9. How different could the needs of a Prius driver be from a Focus/Cobalt driver?

We're talking basic transportation, none of these cars is going to carry more than 5 people, cross the Baja, tow a trailer, carry a 4x8 sheet of plywood and none can be considered luxurious.

[vadawg]

10. dosent matter, its all down to the individual purchaser, whether brand loyalty

bad experiences, or their needs, or wants... mayby they like th prius styling better..

[depakid]

14. I'm currently in the market for a 4x4, which is required to get around in this country

Choices for fuel efficient but still capable vehicles is petty limited- and while I'd love to buy an Aussie model, they're "thirsty," which puts them out of contention.

On the other hand, some of the Japanese and Korean models aren't really road worthy- and believe me, you don't want to get stuck out in the middle of nowhere. An hour's drive from here might as well be in the never never in terms of getting a cell connection and it's a damn long walk out.

[divideandconquer]

The greatest SUV ever built is the Jeep Cherokee

They quit making them in the USA but the Chinese still build them, even counterfeit ones. The PLA uses them as well. Rugged, capable, durable and dependable. thoese 4.0l sixes can break 300k miles on the clock pretty consistantly, simple, easy to work on and a good size.

[depakid]

16. They still have those around here, but they're too thirsty for my needs

If I could afford two vehicles, I might garage a larger one for the nasty stuff and drive a little guy around to most places.

This one's on the showrooms now:



Needs a lot of aftermarket work to be practical here- bullbar and roofracks at the very least.

Holden's smaller entry here:



At the moment, I'm leaning toward a ford escape/Mazda tribute (essentially the same vehicle) or a Toyota Rav 4 (which for some reason sells at a major premium- sort of like the Apple computer of the 4x4 world).

[divideandconquer]

I forgot they sell "Libertys" abroad as "Cherokees"

You might see more diesel jeeps down your way. They have a off road Patroit available that's been tested on the Rubicon Trail that only comes as 4 cylinder.

[depakid]

22. There are some diesels, but the fuel is pricey

What I'd like to do is a duel fuel conversion (LPG infrastructure is available all across the country, thanks to foresight during the 70's oil embargoes).

[divideandconquer]

17. delete

[hex29a]

27. My mailman ('letter carrier'?) is on his 4th transmission for his Cherokee.

He bought it a couple years ago for its reputation and has had nothing but trouble with it since.
Wants to get something more reliable but there aren't many 4wd wagons he needs and likes that will stand up to his daily stop and go rounds in all weather. For what its worth he is absolutely NOT anti-union he just wants to find a vehicle that won't break down every few weeks.

[divideandconquer]

15. self delete

[mdmc]

11. imho, every dollar spent / saved is a highly political act..

[divideandconquer]

12. Spending money might be the MOST political act in today's America!

Voting doesn't seem to be so effective.

Think about the rewarding of values differences between buying food at Whole Foods, the local farmers market, employee owned Publix, unionized Kroger, a local independent grocer, Target, Walmart, etc.

it's like that with every product to varying degrees, that's why there is much controversy about toyota's problems and "government motors".

[mdmc]

24. yupyupyup

I shop progressive, then local..
I know all the local dem businesses and the local GOP businesses..
I stay away from the box stores except costco..
I shop at (teamsters organized) Shopite or Stop and Shop.

[NYC_SKP]

3. Complicit with Clinton and Bush, the Big Three made Choices NOT to offer a high MPG vehicle...

Until after I bought my Prius.

I had no use for overbuilt gas-guzzling SUVs or any of the rest of the fleet.

We could have been there first, or at least TIED, with good hybrids, but at the time all there was were hybrid SUVs.

Hybrid SUVs.

LOL.

[divideandconquer]

7. Chrysler was punished by the government and the public for building fuel efficient cars in the '80's

Ford and GM were supposed to pay huge fines for going over their CAFE standards and the Reagan admistration let them off. Chrysler built a more fuel efficient fleet big on 4 cylinder cars and minivans but with few trucks. The public rewarded GM and Ford for building all these gas guzzlers with big profits and so Chrysler followed suit, bought Jeep and started working on a stronger truck product.

BTW, the Prius has only been profitable with the use on virtual slave labor by contract workers from China and Vietnam.

[vadawg]

13. my mother in law has a prius, and happily it cant get anywhere near my house :)

so i need a gas guzzling 4x4, i guess it all comes down to what people need... my buddy has a smart car and he loves it but no way on gods green earth would i ever have one..

[tabasco]

21. LOL - the rugged Virginia frontiersman.

You simply need to conform.

[vadawg]

23. nope just someone who lives in a mountain community that dosent want paved roads

so hence the need for 4x4, havent done too much frontiersman stuff apart from growing my own food since i retired from the military, though this years project is to build a pond and stock it...

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. And how many American cars get the same mpg as a Prius?

I'm car shopping now and I can't find any vehicle that matches the Prius for mileage.

[divideandconquer]

26. At present prices the Pruis will never recover the extra money invested

Most Hybrid Cars Do Not Pay Back Higher Costs In 5 Years
Most hybrids do not pay.

Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now.

Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years.

The Prius and Civic hybrids produce a net savings of a few hundred dollars in 5 years but only with US federal tax credits.

CR's revised analysis shows that two of the six hybrids recovered their price premium in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership. The Toyota Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid provide a savings of about $400 and $300, respectively, when compared with their all-gas counterparts - as long as federal tax credits apply. But extra ownership costs during the first five years and 75,000 miles for the other four hybrids ranged from an estimated $1,900 to $5,500, compared to similar all-gas models.

I also suspect that Toyota is selling the Prius with a lower profit margin in order to build good will with governments and the public.

People who buy a hybrid in the United States now do so to make a statement or to satisfy themselves that they are saving energy. By a strict economic calculation hybrids would not make sense without a higher tax on gasoline such as is the case in Europe.
--------------------
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/003301.html

There will be non hybrid cars in year or two that will have comparable gas mileage and performance without the batteries.
<www.worldcarfans.com/110022424736/fiat-two-cylinder-85-hp-twin-air-engine-previewed-for-geneva-debut>

[Statistical]

6. The Big 3 will regain marketshare if they build cars people want.

Ford has gained marketshare over last qtr due to strong sales.

Make cars people want and they will buy them.
Don't make cars people want and they won't buy them.

I am going to buy what is best for my needs & budget.

If it is a Ford, it is a Ford. If it is a Honda, it is a Honda.

[Taverner]

18. Wait for continental drift to move you - its the only ethical solution

:thumbsup:

[divideandconquer]

20. That's truly a sophist idea

[nickinSTL]

19. when I buy a car, reliability is the primary concern

I have bought 3 Toyotas - as they were among the best I could get for the price.

The one time I let something else get in the way, I bought a Hyundai - with only average reliability as rated by Consumer Reports - and I had a number of problems with it- fortunately most of them before the warranty ran out, and one was fixed under a recall.

Based on the number of problems I've experienced - reliability ratings will be a primary concern the next time I have to buy a car. If that means a another Toyota, fine, if it means a Ford, fine.

I've never bought a new car, and I highly doubt I will anytime soon...so...really, what I buy doesn't have a large impact on the politics, anyway.