Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Fact Sheet: Myths and the Truth About The Health Care Bill by Jane Hamsher

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:51 AM
Original message
Fact Sheet: Myths and the Truth About The Health Care Bill by Jane Hamsher
Fact Sheet: The Truth About the Health Care Bill
By: Jane Hamsher Friday
March 19, 2010


MYTH:
This is a universal health care bill.

TRUTH:
The bill is neither universal health care nor universal health insurance.

Per the CBO:

Total uninsured in 2019 with no bill: 54 million
Total uninsured in 2019 with Senate bill: 24 million (44%)


MYTH:
Insurance companies hate this bill

TRUTH:
This bill is almost identical to the plan written by AHIP, the insurance company trade association, in 2009.

The original Senate Finance Committee bill was authored by a former Wellpoint VP. Since Congress released the first of its health care bills on October 30, 2009, health care stocks have risen 28.35%.


MYTH:
The bill will significantly bring down insurance premiums for most Americans.

TRUTH:
The bill will not bring down premiums significantly, and certainly not the $2,500/year that the President promised.

Annual premiums in 2016, status quo / with bill:

Small group market, single: $7,800 / $7,800

Small group market, family: $19,3oo / $19,200

Large Group market, single: $7,400 / $7,300

Large group market, family: $21,100 / $21,300

Individual market, single: $5,500 / $5,800*

Individual market, family: $13,100 / $15,200*


MYTH:
The bill will make health care affordable for middle class Americans.

TRUTH:
The bill will impose a financial hardship on middle class Americans who will be forced to buy a product that they can’t afford to use.

A family of four making $66,370 will be forced to pay $8,628 per year for insurance. After basic necessities, this leaves them with $8,307 in discretionary income — out of which they would have to cover clothing, credit card and other debt, child care and education costs, in addition to $5,882 in annual out-of-pocket medical expenses for which families will be responsible.

MYTH:
This plan is similar to the Massachusetts plan, which makes health care affordable.

TRUTH:
Many Massachusetts residents forgo health care because they can’t afford it.

A 2009 study by the state of Massachusetts found that:

21% of residents forgo medical treatment because they can’t afford it, including 12% of children
18% have health insurance but can’t afford to use it


MYTH:
This bill provide health care to 31 million people who are currently uninsured.

TRUTH:
This bill will mandate that millions of people who are currently uninsured must purchase insurance from private companies, or the IRS will collect up to 2% of their annual income in penalties. Some will be assisted with government subsidies.


MYTH:You can keep the insurance you have if you like it.

TRUTH:
The excise tax will result in employers switching to plans with higher co-pays and fewer covered services.
Older, less healthy employees with employer-based health care will be forced to pay much more in out-of-pocket expenses than they do now.


MYTH:
The “excise tax” will encourage employers to reduce the scope of health care benefits, and they will pass the savings on to employees in the form of higher wages.

TRUTH:
There is insufficient evidence that employers pass savings from reduced benefits on to employees.


MYTH:
This bill employs nearly every cost control idea available to bring down costs.

TRUTH:
This bill does not bring down costs and leaves out nearly every key cost control measure, including:

Public Option ($25-$110 billion)
Medicare buy-in
Drug reimportation ($19 billion)
Medicare drug price negotiation ($300 billion)
Shorter pathway to generic biologics ($71 billion)


MYTH:The bill will require big companies like WalMart to provide insurance for their employees

TRUTH:
The bill was written so that most WalMart employees will qualify for subsidies, and taxpayers will pick up a large portion of the cost of their coverage.



MYTH:
The bill “bends the cost curve” on health care.

TRUTH:
The bill ignored proven ways to cut health care costs and still leaves 24 million people uninsured, all while slightly raising total annual costs by $234 million in 2019.

“Bends the cost curve” is a misleading and trivial claim, as the US would still spend far more for care than other advanced countries.

In 2009, health care costs were 17.3% of GDP.

Annual cost of health care in 2019, status quo: $4,670.6 billion (20.8% of GDP)

Annual cost of health care in 2019, Senate bill: $4,693.5 billion (20.9% of GDP)


MYTH:
The bill will provide immediate access to insurance for Americans who are uninsured because of a pre-existing condition.

TRUTH:
Access to the “high risk pool” is limited and the pool is underfunded. It will cover few people, and will run out of money in 2011 or 2012.

Only those who have been uninsured for more than six months will qualify for the high risk pool. Only 0.7% of those without insurance now will get coverage, and the CMS report estimates it will run out of funding by 2011 or 2012.


MYTH:
The bill prohibits dropping people in individual plans from coverage when they get sick.

TRUTH:
The bill does not empower a regulatory body to keep people from being dropped when they’re sick.

There are already many states that have laws on the books prohibiting people from being dropped when they’re sick, but without an enforcement mechanism, there is little to hold the insurance companies in check.

MYTH:
The bill ensures consumers have access to an effective internal and external appeals process to challenge new insurance plan decisions.

TRUTH:
The “internal appeals process” is in the hands of the insurance companies themselves, and the “external” one is up to each state.
Ensuring that consumers have access to “internal appeals” simply means the insurance companies have to review their own decisions. And it is the responsibility of each state to provide an “external appeals process,” as there is neither funding nor a regulatory mechanism for enforcement at the federal level.



MYTH:
This bill will stop insurance companies from hiking rates 30%-40% per year.

TRUTH:
This bill does not limit insurance company rate hikes. Private insurers continue to be exempt from anti-trust laws, and are free to raise rates without fear of competition in many areas of the country.


MYTH:When the bill passes, people will begin receiving benefits under this bill immediately

TRUTH:
Most provisions in this bill, such as an end to the ban on pre-existing conditions for adults, do not take effect until 2014.

Six months from the date of passage, children could not be excluded from coverage due to pre-existing conditions, though insurance companies could charge more to cover them. Children would also be allowed to stay on their parents’ plans until age 26. There will be an elimination of lifetime coverage limits, a high risk pool for those who have been uninsured for more than 6 months, and community health centers will start receiving money.


MYTH:
The bill creates a pathway for single payer.

TRUTH:
Bernie Sanders’ provision in the Senate bill does not start until 2017, and does not cover the Department of Labor, so no, it doesn’t create a pathway for single payer.

Obama told Dennis Kucinich that the Ohio Representative’s amendment is similar to Bernie Sanders’ provision in the Senate bill, and creates a pathway to single payer. Since the waiver does not start until 2017, and does not cover the Department of Labor, it is nearly impossible to see how it gets around the ERISA laws that stand in the way of any practical state single payer system.


MYTH:
The bill will end medical bankruptcy and provide all Americans with peace of mind.

TRUTH:
Most people with medical bankruptcies already have insurance, and out-of-pocket expenses will continue to be a burden on the middle class.

In 2009, 1.5 million Americans declared bankruptcy
Of those, 62% were medically related
Three-quarters of those had health insurance
The Obama bill leaves 24 million without insurance
The maximum yearly out-of-pocket limit for a family will be $11,900 (PDF) on top of premiums
A family with serious medical problems that last for a few years could easily be financially crushed by medical costs

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/03/19/fact-sheet-the-truth-about-the-health-care-bill/

------------------------------------------------

And here's a few more factual points on this health insurance industry bill at the following link:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/o/l/oleeb/2010/03/a-few-questions-about-the-heal.php?ref=recdc


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Fuck firedoglake wtf with that site anyway? Is it another correntewire. Christ on a biscuit.
(clipboard, sweet!)

Oh Sweet Jeebus, how many times is this tripe going to be posted today?

Fuck them.

I'm with Kucinich, Weiner, Skinner, et al.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. So you can't refute the facts presented. OK. Fair enough.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Calling bullshit on anything from fdl. Better things to do than argue with lies and bullshit. eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:04 PM
Original message
Kucinich, Grayson, Weiner....
...and Skinner are with me on this one, sport.

PS, is this bill taking away coverage for pre-existing conditions for anyone?

And there are other coverages for many adults that take place sooner, but it's not going to be my job to inform those who will not listen, or read.

You're on your own.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. so -- then REFUTE it, If.You.Can.
Demonizing a site because you CAN'T refute it is a tactic straight out of the RNC handbook.

REFUTE it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
51. So, again, you can't refute it, can you?
It's funny to read those who can't wait to tell us how desperately wrong Jane is, but can't seem to prove her wrong using cites and links the way she did in her article...

:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
55. it's hard work
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. If these claims are really facts...
then can't you find a more credible source for them than FDL?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
52. What would you consider a more "credible" source?
Can't wait to read this.

Then again, I'm still waiting for you to post cites from the last time we tangled.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #52
66. anyfuckingthing
JH jumped the shark and her name is Mudd here (except to the haters)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #66
78. I think a lot of it is that Jane Hamsher is an outspoken female
Oh, gosh. Did I say that out loud?

My bad.

:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. No, it's her smoking habits
Edited on Fri Mar-19-10 03:32 PM by HughMoran


Pass the teabag please?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #78
83. No, it's her alignment with Norquist and the teabaggers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #78
90. That's a lame accusation because people criticize Ralph Nader for the exact same things.
Edited on Fri Mar-19-10 10:30 PM by LoZoccolo
Michael Moore too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
62. People should step up with facts, not digs at FDL and Hamsher.
But it's much harder to the do the former, so they'll just continue to unrec and leave insults which are completely unproductive. I mean seriously, I thought we were about FACTS?

That was the whole "reality based community" thing, i.e. the right ignored and even mocked facts when it suited them (oh, that's from "university" or a "scientist", etc.). It's so disheartening to see so many on the left taking on that role, just with new villains. And look, if there are great fact-based sources that debunk each of these points, we should all want to see them, regardless of if they contradict or reinforce what we already think.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. ihavextremebias
fixed it
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. My God.
If that was a joke, that was hilarious!

If you were serious, it's incredibly embarrassing and you should delete it ASAP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. lol
truth hurts brother, truth hurts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. On the other hand, it's nice to see Mr. Moran finally admit what we've know all along.

:D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
20score Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #69
82. Too bad no one could play grade school games with his name. Nope, can't think of a thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Naturalist111 Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
111. These are not facts
until proven. Prove it by the actual words in the bill. Complete paragraphs. This proves nothing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Before I speedily exit this thread: Those LOLcats are outrageous beyond words
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. are those pod cats?
I have heard they exist
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Why, yes they are pod cats.
The are known to come out at times of great stress among alarmists and conspiracy theorists.

:P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
43. Not to mention the AMA, AARP
And the nuns. I'm with you - fuck Jane and her site.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. Umm, AARP is a GIANT "For Profit" Health Insurance Corporation.
AARP = United HealthCare (United Health Insurance)

And YES.
They are stocking in the champaign for this great VICTORY over the American Working Class.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #50
61. What crap
You want to take the repubican side on this, knock yourself out. I'll go with Obama, Kucinich, Grayson and my own Nita Lowey.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #61
72. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #61
77. So?....No Rebuttal?...
No facts supporting your claims?

ALL you have is "CRAP"? :shrug:

The TRUTH is that AARP = United HealthCare...a for profit Health Insurance Corporation.
AARP makes $MONEY$ peddling "Health Insurance".

http://insurance.lovetoknow.com/Medical_Insurance_AARP_United_Health_Care

Using AARP to sell the current bill does NOT help your cause.
We already KNOW this bill will make Health Insurance Companies far richer.
You can shout "CRAP" all you want to,
Won't change the facts,
so knock yourself out.

Oh, by the way, you can add this to all the propaganda posted at DU yesterday about the Health Insurance Corps OPPOSING this bill.

QED.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #77
96. not to mention the AMA has been fighting against single payor since Roosevelt.
They gave us Ray-gun, spokesman for the AMA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FzNTB1qtFA
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #61
109. Actually he's right. AARP is in business with United Healthcare.
You might want to look that up for yourself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
97. I absolutely REFUSE to be so fucking stupid--
--as to be for or against anything just because of who else is for or against it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. I continue to wait for her to get with the program and support this bill
along with Howard Dean, Michael Moore and Dennis Kucinich.

I can wait.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Why should she support the Health Insurance Industry and Big Pharma Protection Act?

The "endorsements" of Moore and Kucinich were less than glowing!

And they have made a big mistake which they will apologize for in a year to two .... perhaps sooner.

And a lot more apologies will be forthcoming from Democrats who will face political repercussions for their votes.

That will be too little and too late for most.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
68. No limit to depths will go to discredit Obama & Dems
Edited on Fri Mar-19-10 02:53 PM by HughMoran
terrible way to make a living on DU - corralling haters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. Jane Hamsher is about as credible as her buddy Norquist. FUCK. THEM.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. In other words, you can't refute her.
Not that I'm all that surprised.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
41. +1 nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. Kick and rec! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. k/r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. #1 TRUTH - Insurance COs will be laughing all the way to the bank
as they own us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. +1
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WorseBeforeBetter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. You got that right, but it's okay...
since the Almighty O is getting what he wants.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
46. There you go again,
"Begrudging" these useless parasites their Billions.
Look at all the baseball players!!!
Its the Free Market!

"All Hail the Giant Invisible Hand"

"The Giant Invisible Hand will Save us ALL"!
"All we have to do is sacrifice the American Working Class!"
(And they say The Democrats are "Anti-Religion"! LOL!)


The photos of the Health Insurance Execs in front of their NEW Summer Homes in Aspen are going to be beautiful.
They will now be able to Buy In to the same neighborhoods as Wall Street Bankers.
Wall Street Bankers got their Trillion Dollars.
Its only fair that the Health Insurance Industry should get theirs.
Fair IS Fair!

And , after all,
Its the "Uniquely American Solution."

K&R....back UP to +2
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. Facts about the health care bill from Howard Dean
Edited on Fri Mar-19-10 12:04 PM by ProSense
<...>

MADDOW: Can you call it health insurance reform, not health care reform?

DEAN: Certainly not health insurance reform because a lot of stuff that they say is going to be in it, like preexisting conditions stuff. It’s going to very helpful for children and young people but not for older people for very technical reasons. Basically, in the bill, there’s not a lot of insurance reform. They meant to put some in but somehow lost its way in the Senate Finance Committee.

MADDOW: Well, what do you think is the most important thing this bill will accomplish?

DEAN: A lot of important things in this bill that will make it worth passing. The first is, it’s great for small businesses. If you have fewer than 30 employees, you don’t have to pay health insurance at all anymore. We ought to break the link between employment and health insurance. And that begins that process. Secondly, it is good for the deficit. One figure you didn’t mention, which is even more important, is over the following 10 years, after the first 10, it reduces the deficit by over $1 trillion.

MADDOW: Yes.

DEAN: So, from financial point of view, it makes a lot of sense. Medicaid is expanded so indigent working people who can’t get any kind of insurance get help now. Children’s preexisting conditions on the day the president signs the bill are gone. A friend of mine just had his 9- year-old daughter come down with diabetes. He would lose his insurance policy under the present—for the whole family under the present circumstances. That will be gone if this bill passes. So even though as a person who’s kind of represents the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party and I think we could have done a lot more, this is worth passing.

<...>

So, when you add it all up, I think this bill should be supported. I think it needs to be supported, and I think it’s going to pass.

<...>

DEAN:...The big difference here is in the last four weeks, President Obama is back. He started with a Republican Senate. He has been leading this country for the last four weeks vigorously, standing up for what he believes in. I think it took tremendous amount of guts on his part to go back and try this again.

A lot of people in his White House staff said don’t and he did it. And he gets credit for that what people want more than anything else, to see a really strong president. In the last four weeks, President Obama has been a really strong president. If they win this, there’s lot of reasons that we’re going to win, I think.

<...>

link


More facts from Paul Krugman


Jane Hamsher is an idiot.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. What, that cheerleader? nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. "If you have fewer than 30 employees, you don’t have to pay health insurance at all anymore"
that's depressing for anyone working at a one of those places :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. Hamsher is a Neocon tool.
Unrec.

The haters here are getting desperate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
60. OMG! It's upside down day? eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RDANGELO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
15. On the Mass health care
Yes there are people who have declined to buy health insurance, but overall they have substantially increased the number of people insured. They have had this system for several years now, and the majority of the people approve of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
20. "TRUTH: Many Massachusetts residents forgo health care because they can’t afford it." Bullshit
Massachusetts is ranked number one in the nation with the smallest uninsured population.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Your link is 2 degrees from UnitedHealthGroup. Nice.
America's Health Rankings

In 2002, United Health Foundation, in concert with the American Public Health Association (APHA) and Partnership for Prevention, commissioned the School of Public Health at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill to undertake an ongoing review of America`s Health RankingsTM. The Scientific Advisory Committee, led by Thomas Ricketts, Ph.D., M.P.H., was charged with conducting a thorough review of the current index and recommending improvements that would maintain the value of the comparative, longitudinal information; reflect the evolving role and science of public health; utilize new or improved measures of health as they become available and acceptable; and incorporate new methods as feasible. Minor issues with data are always addressed immediately and incorporated into the contents of the next edition of the report. However, more significant issues, such as new measurements of health conditions, require more in-depth study and analysis.

http://www.americashealthrankings.org/2009/SAC.aspx

United Health Foundation
The United Health Foundation was established by UnitedHealth Group in 1999 as a not-for-profit, private foundation dedicated to improving health and health care.


http://www.unitedhealthfoundation.org/mission.html

UnitedHealthGroup

http://www.unitedhealthgroup.com/main/default.aspx
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Here
Massachusetts - Access: 1

The Commonwealth Fund State Scorecard, 2009.

Because "distortions R us" are out in full effect.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #27
98. They only have access to overpriced worthless insurance, not health care n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Having insurance is NOT the same as being able to afford health care.
Which insurance company do you work for again?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. you noticed that too, huh?
There seems to be more than a handful here that work for the companies that stand to benefit from this insurance bill. You can pretty much tell by the levels of shrill and the amount of smears they dump on anyone and anything that refutes the public relations manifesto information being spun.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Here's the difference
Edited on Fri Mar-19-10 12:39 PM by ProSense
But shouldn’t we be focused on controlling costs rather than extending coverage? Actually, the proposed reform does more to control health care costs than any previous legislation, paying for expanded coverage by reducing the rate at which Medicare costs will grow, substantially improving Medicare’s long-run financing along the way. And this combination of broader coverage and cost control is no accident: It has long been clear to health-policy experts that these concerns go hand in hand. The United States is the only advanced nation without universal health care, and it also has by far the world’s highest health care costs.

link

Hamsher is full of shit.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
100. You are talking about worthless insurance. FDL is talking about CARE n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
106. Health Care Insurance Is Not Health Care
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WorseBeforeBetter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
21. Wait. Who is it again that believes in pink ponies and magic wands?
"...and they will pass the savings on to employees in the form of higher wages."

That's laugh-out-loud funny.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
24. Hamsher in 1787: Submit to England again, the Articles were a wash.
Hamsher in 1944: Retreat from Normandy, we didn't get to Berlin.

Hamsher in Kindergarten: Let's drop out, we can't read Ulysses.

Jane, progressives make progress every once in a while.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. That's all you got? You can't refute a single thing in the article?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:33 PM
Original message
OK, what about her bullshit about premiums?
Subsidies in the exchanges will drop the prices of those premiums to the families. Jane forgot to subtract them?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
26. FDL has become Nader Central....
and lost any credibility it might have had when it aligned itself with the likes of Norquist, Schlafly and the teabaggers, imo.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Does that mean you can't refute the article?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. Enough personal attacks and insults from you directed at DU'ers

Since you seem to prefer trash talk over civil debate and discussion I'll let you talk to yourself.

You're going on my ignore list.

Does anyone who also prefers trash talk care to join "berni"?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #40
54. If describing your behavior is a personal attack, then perhaps
You ought to take a hard look at your behavior.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
42. Funny, though
The letter she and Norquist signed raised an alarm about the administration's plan to lift the cap on Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae before the end of the year to avoid the need for Congressional approval. The administration did that very thing on Christmas Eve. It's good when you're trying to disprove an opponent's point and discredit them that you not turn around and prove them correct.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Do you take the time to refute every crackpot article that comes your way?
Firedoglake has lost credibility, and people will just have to cite another source if they want us to pay attention.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
49. Transparent cop-out. Cheap and obvious.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #49
88. Firedoglake is a project of Grover Norquist CAN YOU REFUTE THAT CAN YOU CAN YOU??!! n/t
Edited on Fri Mar-19-10 05:30 PM by LoZoccolo
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. I have no interest in 'refuting' that which has NO credibility in the first place...
Anyone that aligns themselves with Norquist, Shlafly and the teabaggers are themselves likely to be strangers to the truth.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. Transparent cop-out. Cheap and obvious.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #48
63. Ms. Hamsher wouldn't know the truth if she fell over it, imo...
Anyone who aligns themselves with the teabaggers as Ms. Hamsher has deserves NO response, imo. Here is a video of teabaggers in action, teabaggers with which Ms. Hamsher thinks the 'left' has common interests with:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7956867

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
57. *NADER*
everyone finish your drink!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. LOL!
:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #57
65. Drive safe!
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
33. Thanks for posting.
The smears here have reached the nader/traitor/terrorist stage, FDL must be telling the truth again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
37. Fuck Jane and her teabagger buddies. She wouldn't know a fact
if it bit her in the ass.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. She should go back to producing shitty movies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
45. Hamsher has been getting the facts WRONG consistently.
And what few facts she gets right she spins completely out of reality. I feel she jumped the shark when she railed against the generic drug provisions which would have actually allowed generics to get to market quicker.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Would you care to offer some concrete examples from what was posted in the OP?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thotzRthingz Donating Member (585 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
53. FDL seems to be one of the FEW sources which provides necessary INFO to progressives who really care
K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
56. She lays it out pretty well.
Of course, if anyone has anything that refutes her claims, I'm all ears.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
58. It's Firebagger freakout time!!! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
59. Very well done.
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
70. Thanks for this list. Hamsher has comprehensively referenced all 18 of these points
...at the end of her post outlining the 18 Myths vs. Truths about the health care legislation:



Documentation (Hyperlinked in original text at above link):

1. March 11, Letter from Doug Elmendorf to Harry Reid (PDF)
2. The AHIP Plan in Context, Igor Volsky; The Max Baucus WellPoint/Liz Fowler Plan, Marcy Wheeler
3. CBO Score, 11-30-2009
4. “Affordable” Health Care, Marcy Wheeler
5. Gruber Doesn’t Reveal That 21% of Massachusetts Residents Can’t Afford Health Care, Marcy Wheeler; Massachusetts Survey (PDF)
6. Health Care on the Road to Neo-Feudalism, Marcy Wheeler
7. CMS: Excise Tax on Insurance Will Make Your Insurane Coverage Worse and Cause Almost No Reduction in NHE, Jon Walker
8. Employer Health Costs Do Not Drive Wage Trends, Lawrence Mishel
9. CBO Estimates Show Public Plan With Higher Savings Rate, Congress Daily; Drug Importation Amendment Likely This Week, Politico; Medicare Part D IAF; A Monopoloy on Biologics Will Drain Health Care Resources, Lancet Student
10. MaxTax Is a Plan to Use Our Taxes to Reward Wal-Mart for Keeping Its Workers in Poverty, Marcy Wheeler
11. Estimated Financial Effects of the “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act of 2009,” as Proposed by the Senate Majority Leader on November 18, 2009, CMS (PDF)
12. ibid
13. ibid
14. ibid
15. Health insurance companies hang onto their antitrust exemption, Protect Consumer Justice.org
16. What passage of health care reform would mean for the average American, DC Examiner
17. How to get a State Single Payer Opt-Out as Part of Reconciliation, Jon Walker
18. Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies, CNN.com; The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act Section‐by‐Section Analysis (PDF)



Very well done, Ms. Hamsher.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. "Very well done, Ms. Hamsher."
Indeed! :thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
75. Good article.
Dumping perfume on shit doesn't make it a rose. And this bill is a steaming pile.

Unfortunately it looks like the health insurance company bailout bill will pass.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
80. K&R .... back UP to +3
The opposition voice SHOULD be HEARD.
Thats "democracy".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
81. The real myth exposed - how this post doesn't have a leg to stand on.
That's the bullshit. Jane Hamsher doesn't document "oft-repeated claims." Her sourcing of her mythbusters is laughable - no page numbers, nothing. "It's in there," says Jane.

So this is a document full of straw men that she proceeds to knock down in quite an performance. And many of the myths are "debunked" by saying, "Yeah, but." As in, "This bill prohibits people being dropped from coverage." "Yeah, but no regulatory agency..." If that's even true, THE PROHIBITION IS STILL THERE.

Another: "This bill will bend the cost curve." "Yeah, but not enough. Yeah, but it doesn't use this or that." Well, does it bend the cost curve or not? If it does, then THIS ISN'T A MYTH.

"Universal plan"? Who claims that about this bill? And how can she can stare those 30 million in the face that WILL be getting health insurance from this bill and say, sorry, no insurance for you?

"End Medical Bankruptcy?" Again, I don't see anyone claiming they will "end."

Did she get Grover to write this weak, lame shit for her?

PASS THE DAMN BILL. Progressives believe in progress. This bill is progress toward the goal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. "those 30 million in the face that WILL be getting health insurance",
Edited on Fri Mar-19-10 04:42 PM by bvar22
you mean those 30 million who will be forced to BUY junk insurance that most won't be able to use due to high Co-Pay/High Deductible?

I'm one of those 30 Million who will be forced into the "Exchange Pens".
I'm NOT happy.
Look ME in the face come November.

"Progress toward a goal"?
Yes, if that goal is to enshrine the parasitic For Profit Health Insurance Industry as the gateway to Health Care in America, and to make REAL reform impossible for another generation...then THIS is Progress...for the Corporate Overlords.
For the American Working Class and "FDR Democrats" this is a HUGE step TOWARD Regan Republicana.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. They'll have it, won't they? It's a start. It's a step. It's PROGRESS.
You can't call it junk insurance yet. The standards haven't been set.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. Then we can't really call it "Reform" yet., can we.
To quote you, "The standards haven't been set."

Then WHY are they calling for a vote if "they" are still hiding "the standards."

Fix it FIRST.
Pass it Later.
There will be NO "Fixing it Later!"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. Yes, we can.
The fricking standards are set by the groups set up in the bill. Why don't you try reading it?

No one is hiding the standards. The bill sets up a group that will be made up of all stakeholders that will determine the standards of plans in the Exchanges. The Secretary of HHS approves them. It's called transparency. It's called democracy.

Pass the bill.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #85
99. 60% of costs covered = worthless pile of shit n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. So the insured will have to pay 40% of health costs or go without. Now that's reform!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thotzRthingz Donating Member (585 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. thanks for speaking up & out, for those being enslaved with NO REAL OPTIONS... very well said!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. No real options, except for all the plans in the exchange.
:eyes:

The system is designed for competition and choice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
87. These are the truths that will affect me:
"TRUTH:
The excise tax will result in employers switching to plans with higher co-pays and fewer covered services.
Older, less healthy employees with employer-based health care will be forced to pay much more in out-of-pocket expenses than they do now."

And this:

"TRUTH:
The bill will impose a financial hardship on middle class Americans who will be forced to buy a product that they can’t afford to use."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merkins Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
92. Excellent Fact Sheet - Thanks!
The bots trying to demonize Jane are just plain bankrupt .. enjoy your piss & vinegar.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
93. Thanks for bravely posting.
Speaking as someone who supports Jane's efforts, you know a lot of responses are just going to be angry non substantive expletives. As for those trying to post information pro and con, I don't mean you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
94. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
101. kick. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
103. The hard facts vs. myths for weekend DU'ers
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
104. Jane and Norquist sitting in a tree...K-I-S-S-I-N-G....
idiots

:thumbsdown:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. So you can't refute even one of her points in the fact sheet! If you can, you have the floor!
Edited on Sat Mar-20-10 07:53 PM by Better Believe It
I'm listening.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
107. where's the part where we are all required to be microchipped?
some fundie nutcase on facebook is claiming we are all going to get the dreaded mark of the beast in the form of a microchip if the dreaded bill passes!

:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. That "reform" is probably several years away and it will be part of Homeland Security "reforms"
Have to keep track of those terriorists!

:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
110. kick
Thanks for posting this
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 24th 2024, 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC