I think part of the frustration many of us feel is due to knowing things could be...

[Cleobulus]

a hell of a lot better with the HCR bill. And we have examples of such in the real world.

In most other countries with UHC systems, their citizens pay a little more money in taxes(progressive based) and the advantage they get is that at point of service, when they actually need and use medical care, whatever copays they require to pay they can find the money by looking for change in their couches, literally.

And of course, sometimes its free at service. We had a DUer the other day, from Canada, talk about how much he paid to get a nuclear bone scan done, 15 dollars, and that was for parking. What would the average American pay even with this health care reform bill? 800 dollars? 1,000? 2,000? And what if that American can't afford it at the time, do they have to beg the hospital for a payment plan? Do they have to try to borrow money from family or friends? Shrink their savings just a little more assuming they even have savings? Go to the government, hat in hand, and hope you qualify for some type of subsidy or cost-sharing, and hope that you have enough money to make up the difference?

In many of these other countries, there is no litmus test for qualifying for help, hell, there's no need to, in some cases you can be exempt from the copays due to income in these countries, but the copays themselves are so small that it rarely will break the bank of someone with just a little too much income. Unfortunately, we cannot say the same in the United States.

[joycean]

1. I agree, mostly

and I'm just going to quote myself from an earlier thread.

Health care reform could have had the largest positive impact on the economy of any legislation Congress and the President might have passed. I say this because so many of us, including businesses, spend such a large amount on health care coverage when it's outrageous. The law of supply and demand only work when the demand curve doesn't approach 100%. When it does, the supplier can charge pretty much whatever they want. That's why, in my opinion, health care can't rationally be subjected to the free market.

What we should have done is considered reconciliation a lot sooner. We should have seriously evaluated the numbers and complications involved with a public option, and presented the best plan to the American people. An affordable public option, coupled with smart regulation (similar to what is in the bill presently, but that goes further than the current language) might have not only truly reformed the health care system, but created significant economic benefits as well.

Instead we have a Health Care Reform bill that neither makes anyone healthier, nor reforms the system in any significant way.

[dana_b]

2. I agree completely, Cleobulus

however I don't think that we will ever have that system here in the good ol' USA. Not in my lifetime, anyway. It comes to a point where you have to decide what is best for you. If it takes moving to Canada and it is feasible for you, then I say do it. It would never work for me due to my family. I couldn't bear to leave.