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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 10:46 PM
Original message
Just Some Thoughts On Health Care Reform...
I know this is an extremely contentious area, people from all sides have their points of view, and most have validity, but there is an underlying theme that just won't go away, the thought that "nothing is better than something".

Let's look at this from a few realistic points...

First, a form of HCR will pass. Sure, it's not perfect, but what really is? I can't think of any legislation during my life, or in history for that matter, that did not need work after it was signed into law, not one. For Pete's sake, we still argue about what the First Amendment actually means...:)

Second, What passes will be an improvement over what is in the current sphere. Few things could be worse than what we have now, people are dying, and in all honesty, if we can save lives, we better start now, even one life saved is worth the change, and if that life happens to be yours or your children's, it's even clearer to see that something must be done.

Third, I gain nothing from what is in this Bill, at least not initially, but I am fighting for a chance for others. I have no dog in this fight, but I refuse to see people sick and dying if we can do something about it.

Fourth, we will, one day have Universal Health Care, but it won't be by this weekend, and if we don't lay groundwork now, our sons and daughters will be in serious trouble.

Fifth, this is not the end of HCR, it is the beginning. This is not the "end all" of the situation, it is the first step on a journey, and for those who would stop this in it's tracks, will gain nothing for a generation.

Finally, there is no reason why people should not discuss this rationally at every turn. There are good answers to serious problems, these answers need to come forth and be part of the ongoing process of HCR. The logistics of what will happen are an enormous impediment to change; that's why many provisions are placed into a somewhat long timeline. This is not the type of thing that can just be "put into place and it will work", this is going to take time to implement.

If nothing is done, I an assure you that insurance companies will dump tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people. I think we should at the very least, start to get things under control. We won't get perfect right out of the gate, we're going to have to work on that...but we need something to work with.

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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm so old I can't wait and sit back and watch things fail. I'll probably pay more, but more people
will benefit, and that's one reason I'm supporting the bill.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Ditto -- This won't help me, but it WILL help lots of people, and I feel it's
giving us a push in the right direction -- getting the ball rolling. It's time. :hi:
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. Won't help me either..I have that "horrid" government run
health insurance called Medicare. I want the bill to pass because it gets the foot in the door and props it open to improvements and additions, adjustments and expansion. All things the people will need who don't have what I have now.
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SPedigrees Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
25. Same here, almost. We're close to medicare eligibility so we could probably avoid
bankruptcy w/o this bill passing. Then again one of us could fall ill in the next few years, need expensive life-saving treatment, and be denied coverage or be dropped by our insur co.

It is a sure thing however, that without HCR, millions will die and/or go into bankruptcy.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
27. If it weren't for the mandate to buy private insurance,
I would agree with you. I just think there are too many people who will bear an unreasonable burden just so the private insurers can get their bailout. And since were all showing our altruistic street cred, I'm a nurse and I get employer provided health insurance so this isn't going to impact me directly but I've seen what a meat grinder our current system is (front row seat) and I just don't know if more grist for the grinder is the right direction.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. Two things about the "mandate"...
It is subsidized for those under limits, and it's a "stop-gap measure. As I stated above, Universal Health Care, (under single payer), is inevitable; it is a question of when.

So much has been distorted under this discussion, it'd difficult to know exactly what 's going to happen...and all things are subject to change in the future.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Yeah, I can stand behind the difficulty of knowing what's going to happen
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. Most cheerfully rec5^
:kick:
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. You make many assumptions but present no evidence to back up your assumptions.
Edited on Fri Mar-19-10 11:13 PM by John Q. Citizen
For instance, you say "a form of HRC will pass.

Two forms passed, one in the Senate and one in the house.

What passed was dependent on the secret deals that the Obama Administration cut with the insurance industry, big pharma, and the hospitals. They also got big money frpom these same groups, as did key people in key positions in congress.

So the form of HCR that passed wasn't based on what was good for the country, but rather, what did big pharma, the hospitals, and the insurance companies want? They got it. That's what's passing.

Why are you so sure that what is passing will be an improvement? They said that Romney care would be an improvement, too, but it wasn't.

They said invading Iraq would improve things, but it totals fucked things up much worse. Why are you so sure that what is passing is an improvement?

3rd. If i show you people sick and dying the week after the bill passes, can I count on a big check from you? Or are you going to claim that you already gave at the office? How about the year after? 5 years after? Are you going to be there doing something then, or not? If your assumptions are wrong can we count on hard cash money from you?


4th This bill is almost entirely unrelated to HCR. This bill, as the white house made clear, is about bailing out the insurance industry, and about getting young Americans paying money to private insurance companies. That's what it is and what it does. Period.

5th the bill won't stop insurance companies from dumping people, from refusing to pay, from very slow paying, and from pricing people they don't want to cover right out of the market.


In fact this bill has but one purpose. To make a win for Obama. To demonstrate that a Dem President with a large Dem majority in the House, and a Super majority in the Senate, can actually pass a bill the Repos want to kill.

That's it. That's what this bill is all about. As Rahm said, 'Success is getting a bill passed, period.'


So my advice is to quit pretending the bill is good public policy, and understand that isn't what this is about. This is about power, and nothing more.






\
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. +1
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county worker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. That is a very self serving post IMHO.
Edited on Fri Mar-19-10 11:22 PM by county worker
You want perfection for yourself. Get out of the way of people who really care about others. Let us pass this bill and help who we can with it now and work to make it better in the future. Your ideas do not help anyone but only serve to boost your ego.

Today 51 Dem Senators signed Reid's letter to Pelosi promising to go to work for a public option in a few weeks after this bill passes. Next week no one will remember what you are saying because they will be celebrating the passing of this bill.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I didn't read it as self serving.
I think he made some extremely valid points.

I know people want to believe that this bill will be wonderful, but we have to be honest about the forces that are allied behind it. Big medicine and big health aren't in this to help people. They are in it for profit. The fact that Obama made secret deals with these institutions raises many red flags.

This administration has a history of over-promising and under-delivering, time after time. I fear this will be no exception.

I know for certain that these reforms will hurt two of my family members. The assurances that it will help people are vague, at best, and some of the promises being made completely defy logic.

At this point, few of us have any hope of the Democrats following through on their promise to get a Public Option. If they couldn't do it by now, there is no reason to believe they will be able to do it with the elections bearing down on them.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. I have perfection. I can move to Canada. I'm free, instead of a slave of the
Edited on Sat Mar-20-10 12:21 AM by John Q. Citizen
private health insurance CEO's like yourself and your peasant country men and women.

I feel sorry for you and for my family and friends who are stuck like you are in a country where their President is terrified that some one named "Newt" may call him a "socialist."

It must really suck, living like you do, living from letter to letter, each one promising, promising, and none ever delivering.


I will pity you as I go to my doctor appointment with no co-pay, no deductible, no bill, and no insurance company. I will think about you, county worker, but i will know you and yours are happy living like slaves to the insurance cartels. So if you are happy, why should I be concerned?

I just sure hope they don't try to export that public/private option crap up to Canada where they already have a functioning socialistic insurance system that works well, contains costs, and covers everyone.

If you want to invest a trillion dollars a decade in public tax dollars to keep insurance company CEOs fat and sassy, then I guess you like being sick, stupid, and broke. It's not for me, but if that's what you like, go for it. And call it a victory if you like. Congratulations. The tax payers are giving the insurance industry a trillion a decade in tax monies. Smart. Thrifty. Well Spent! Good start! I bet it will be 2 trillion by next decade. Twice as good, right? You can say they built on it.

I believe I will soon be celebrating the fact that a Dem president can pass a Repo bill through a Dem congress they control by a wide margin, when the Repos don't want it to pass. That will seem like almost a miracle, to me at least.






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murphyj87 Donating Member (570 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. 90 days
Landed immigrants become eligible for health care in Canada 90 days after they arrive.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.asp
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. +1000 nt
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Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. WHY?
"Let us pass this bill "

why? do you know what's in it? All 2700 pages?

why? because corporate sell outs are saying it needs to be passed?
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #8
29. I care about others
Edited on Sat Mar-20-10 02:15 AM by tavalon
I've been caring for others as an RN for twenty years. I don't think this is anything but a big insurance giveaway and it's happening on the backs of the poor who won't have any better access than they do now but they will be paying mandatory premiums. The supposed ban on pre-existing conditions won't go into effect until 2014. Think about that.

Oh, and ideas don't hurt anyone. Move over and let a few dissenting opinions get air. No one is going to lose their access to this mandated insurance just because John Q Citizen (a very apt name, actually) mentions that the emperor might not have clothes.

Edited to change: Public to Citizen. There is something poetic to that..................
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. "4th"? Very well. Is the 'health insurance industry' unrelated to HC as well?
Because, in that it is possible to point to other corporate models i.e. EXXON & De Beers diamonds that are able to accommodate demand without having to deny the very products & services they pretend to offer and in fact do - or at least they have the balls to charge more money *while* meeting demand with, it will be left here as a missive: even less respect for endless no-bid crony ME wars blood diamonds or otherwise - is that the kind of "unrelated" to which you refer? Cause if that's the case then I agree

Though, imo, *if* that is the case; then the 'health insurance industry' is able to be seen as a soon to be popped deer tick feasting on its own gluttony, so, in such a situation: what to do?

Is it more important to bell the cat? Or do as would procedure suggests and begin to extricate the deer tick from its attachment to the very-related business model of profit = denial of service, and not just service but humanity. People need to run a patient satisfaction survey on a major national HMO and have to enter verbatim some of the more heart breaking experiences in-system and that is if & when one speaks with one whole survivor, and to be fair: they are out there. But the preponderance of oddities is inescapable and prays for accountability - so that if people think the deer tick has no liability in this matter because the deer tick is "unrelated" to its own attachment? Then *they* are the ones dancing with the devil in the pale moonlight and that is that, but this, or I should say: to interpret the following this way...

"and about getting young Americans paying money to private insurance companies" is an escapist, Avatar-esque introduction to small 'l' libertarianism where in their world, whomever they are; they never have their guts fall out through a fissure in their viscera declared a preexisting condition before they even walk in the door, that, firstly: misunderstands E pluribus unum entirely while discounting the advantages of collective bargaining and believe me I thought I was frugal till I met my husband, now I hear this stuff all the time,

"Only buy retail when you have to. Always buy wholesale when you can" I understand what he is saying and agree with it but of course I'm mostly doing this -----> :eyes:

The very best part is that all the talking back & forth is over, its done with - the upcoming vote may not be so much like Cartoon Network, but it will imo be not so unlike the Super Bowl so bring some chicken wings ;)
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Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
21. ^^^ ++++ 10
+10
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #5
28. Please post this as an OP
Yesterday and today this place has turned into a pep squad for the home team. Yay, home team!!! Nothing has changed about this sausage ground bill but suddenly it's a big win for "our side". This isn't a game, it's people's lives and you just put what's wrong so much more succinctly than I can.

I didn't know Rahm said that but damn, I can hear it coming out of his weaselly mouth.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
34. This bill is not a panacea...
it is a start.

Basically, what you are saying is that it just plain stinks...well, I can agree to a point, but, you would settle for nothing, and that removes even a foundation to build upon.

I can't see that as anything but leaving things as they are, or worse, moving backward.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
49. Yep.
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
7. well said
:thumbsup:
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. +1000
"For Pete's sake, we still argue about what the First Amendment actually means..." Great line.

Thanks rasputin1952.

K&R
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. K & R
:thumbsup:
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murphyj87 Donating Member (570 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. We've Been Trapped Inside a Bad Health Care System So Long, We Don't Even Know How Much We're Missin
Edited on Sat Mar-20-10 12:03 AM by murphyj87
We've Been Trapped Inside a Bad Health Care System So Long, We Don't Even Know How Much We're Missing
Our current system has robbed us of the chance to save, educate ourselves, see the world and live to a robust old age.
June 26, 2009


Sometimes, when you're up to your chin in alligators, it's hard to focus on the fact that there's a big, broad, alligator-free world waiting somewhere out there, beyond the edge of the swamp.

In this case, it's hard for most Americans to even imagine that nobody in the rest of the developed world lives this way. We've been living inside the restrictions and making the trade-offs required to hang onto our all-important health care coverage for so long that we don't even realize that we're cutting those deals, or what we're giving up, or how thoroughly those choices have come to dominate and limit our lives.

If you're an American under 40, you can't remember a time that the health care system didn't work this way -- or that keeping coverage wasn't a dominant factor in making your life choices. If you're older than that, the memory of another, happier era beyond the swamp is dim, and fading fast.

This was one of the things that struck me hardest when I arrived in Canada five years ago. The swamp-blindness was so dark and deep that it took a while to adjust to a world without alligators. It's almost impossible to describe to folks back home how different life is when health insurance simply doesn't factor at all into how you choose to live your life. There's almost no language for it. Rather than even attempt it, I sometimes just ask my American friends and relatives to open up their imaginations, and answer the question for themselves:

o How would your life be different if you never had to worry about getting, keeping, or affording health care again?
o What other choices might you have made?
o Where else would you be right now?
o How would it change your plans for the future?

I've seen people reduced to tears of rage and frustration by these questions. When you really stop and think about it -- pause for a few minutes to take it all in, past, present, and future -- it becomes clear that the full absurdity and the sheer enormity of the sacrifices we have to make for an almighty health care card are the greatest obstacle to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness that most of us are burdened with today.

Polls say most Americans who have health care are satisfied with it. But nobody ever asks them if they're satisfied with what they've had to do to get it, keep it, or afford it.

What would you do differently? I watch my Canadian neighbors live their lives, and the world beyond the swamp comes into sharp and stunning focus.

My neighbors go to the doctor when they need to -- and often, when they don't. If they're just feeling funky for a day or two, they go. If the splinter is too big to handle with a needle, they go. Anything goes a little bit sideways -- they go.

By American standards, they're probably overusing the system. (My husband once asked an employee who was nursing a cough, "Have you seen a doctor about that?" The guy just looked at him, confused. Of course he'd seen a doctor. Up here, only an American would ask such a stupid question.)

But the upshot is that the small symptoms of really big things -- little lumps, creeping blood pressure, wounds that don't heal right, coughs that don't go away -- are caught and diagnosed early in a GP's office, instead of months or years down the road in a full-blown crisis at the ER, which is now the American way. And this is central to cost containment: getting emergent problems calmly headed off right away in a $30 office visit is a lot more cost-effective than having to deal with the full catastrophe later on in a $3,000 emergency-room drama scene. And it allows people to maintain their good health through the years, instead of delaying treatment until it's too late to recover it and permanent damage is done.

My neighbors heal, recover, and go on with their lives. The U.S. disability rate last year was 19.1 percent, and rising fast. In Canada, it's 14.3 percent -- and Statistics Canada believes that the only reason their stats are creeping up these days is that people who once hid their disabilities are now more willing to admit them.

That disability rate affects the country's economic competitiveness. Americans just don't have the time or money to spend on a proper recovery after a major event, or get the full course of treatment that a chronic condition requires to be truly well-managed. Fearing for our income or our jobs, we hurry back to work too soon. Our insurance doesn't cover necessary follow-up therapies, so things may not heal thoroughly or properly. We can't afford the drugs, so we cut the pills in half, or stop taking them entirely.

The result is that too many of us end up far more impaired than we need to be -- and may, in fact, never be quite right again. Deferred maintenance -- which is what this is -- takes a ferocious toll on the American workforce, which is now being forced to compete with workers around the world who get better care, make better recoveries, and are able to return to work at full strength.

My neighbors start small businesses. Americans routinely stay chained to jobs they hate because they can't afford to lose coverage. Canada has an exuberant entrepreneurial culture, fueled by favorable tax structures for small business and a preference for Main Streets over malls. Canadians may bet the house and the kids' college funds on a new venture; but they never think twice about whether or not they can afford to leave BigCo because they'll lose their insurance, or what will happen to the new business if they get hit by a delivery truck, or how they'll afford some kind of minimal coverage for their new employees. Unburdened by health care costs or concerns, their ventures are far more likely to thrive.

My neighbors go back to school. Low-cost government-subsidized universities combined with assured health care make it easy for people to make mid-course career adjustments, pursue their passions, and expand their horizons. The upshot is a better-educated, more capable workforce that's constantly improving its skills.

My neighbors quit jobs they hate. "Take this job and shove it" is a lot easier -- and sweeter -- when your boss isn't holding an almighty health care card over your head. Bosses know this, too, and working conditions are often better as a result.

My neighbors stay home with their kids. They can afford to do that, because they're not wholly dependent on whichever breadwinner can manage to find a job with a decent health care plan.

My neighbors invest. They've got stable household budgets that aren't being thrown off by surprise health events. Because Canada doesn't have a mortgage interest deduction, most Canadians reduce interest costs by taking out 10- or 15-year mortgages. The payments really squeeze the family budget for that decade -- but by their 40s a lot of them own their homes outright, something most Americans will never achieve. Home ownership, college savings and retirement funds are all big-money investments that you simply can't commit to if you're liable to be hit with five-figure medical bills at any moment.

My neighbors travel. Americans don't get vacation time; and when they do get it, they tend to stay in-country. A lot of Canadians take three weeks off in the winter to go somewhere fabulous and warm (understandable, given the climate). The sheer variety of these escapes boggles me yet: They fly off to build schools in Guatemala, or take holiday jobs in New Zealand, or learn French in Morocco. Even the guy who paints my house can afford to do this, because he's not spending half his annual income on health care premiums. That $15K-a-year savings will buy a whole lot of margaritas in Cancun.

The result is a population with broad global awareness, and extensive global ties -- a necessary thing for a country whose economy depends completely on trade. And it may be an important factor in keeping Canada progressive. According to Diana Kerry, who ran her brother John's overseas campaign in 2004, Americans who own passports vote Democratic three to one. So travel makes you liberal. Who knew?

My neighbors seldom go bankrupt. The Canadian bankruptcy rate has soared in the past year to 4.3 per thousand. In the U.S., it's 11.1 per thousand. The entire difference between these two figures is accounted for by the fact that 62 percent of all U.S. bankruptcies were driven at least in part by medical expenses.

But tidy numbers like this elide a harder reality: Bankruptcy doesn't just cost us financially. It also destroys the foundations of our social capital. When the house, the dreams, and the future are gone, very often the marriage is the next thing that goes, too. Bankruptcy travels in close company with domestic trouble, divorce, drug use, homelessness, and broken families. (After medical-bill refugees, the second most common people in bankruptcy courts are recently divorced women.) If, as conservatives like to remind us, the family is the basic unit of civilization, then our health care system is directly making its profits by pulling down our social foundations -- and ultimately undermining our ability to hold our civilization together.

My neighbors have never seen anyone die because they didn't have health care. With 22,000 Americans dying every year due to a lack of health insurance -- that's one every 24 minutes -- there aren't many of us who don't know someone who lost a loved one because they couldn't get the treatment they needed. (For me, it was my father.)

But when I share this factoid with Canadians, they invariably do a long double take. They lean back, squint, stare, and pause to reassess my credibility (if not my sanity). It's literally unbelievable. They can't even process it. I must be making it up, or at least exaggerating. It's just beyond the realm of imagining that a rich nation like America would let that kind of thing happen -- let alone let it happen sixty times a day, for years on end.

And yet, they know things are bad down here, because everybody who goes South buys travel insurance before they cross the border. Everybody has heard scary stories about people who got sick or hurt and ended up in an American ER with a five-figure bill to pay. It's just a stupid risk, and they're not willing to take it.

What would you have done differently if you'd never had to worry about health insurance? How would life be different now? How would it change your plans for the future?

Go ahead. Think about it. Let yourself get good and angry. The current system has robbed an entire generation of Americans of their full potential. It has made us serfs. It has narrowed our horizons. It has undermined our families and communities. It has deprived us of the chance to save, to own a home, to educate ourselves and our children, to see the world, to retire in comfort, and to live to a healthy and robust old age.

It has left us in this swamp, chin-deep in alligators. And the first step in getting back out is getting very clear in our own minds that there are other places where people don't live this way -- and then angry enough to lean on our leaders, and make it just as clear to them that we don't intend to live like this any more, either.
Your representatives need to hear from you. Today.

Because your future is still out there -- and the most important thing you need to get there is a health care plan nobody can ever take away.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. Your post left me in grief
I think often how my husband and I could have had a real chance at a good life had I realized before I was too old to emigrate that we were not going to turn things around here. The insurance companies and for profit hospital enterprises are entrenched here and will do anything to keep their death grip on us. After all, we're the only prey they've got. No other country would allow them in there to destroy the people of their country the way they have destroyed us. We're in their clutches and they aren't going to let us go.

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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
37. Incredibly well written! If you haven't made this an OP yet, you really should!!

:applause:

This should be required reading!

I'm absolutely at a loss how and why we as as a people allow this to happen. Our health care system is uniquely cruel and discriminatory. :(
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
13. Good post. And I have a question.
Edited on Sat Mar-20-10 12:10 AM by inna
" this is not the end of HCR, it is the beginning."

No kidding. It better be. (See my signature.)

Now, my question is, why did Obama say the following in his address to a joint session of Congress on Sept. 9, 2009, as released by the White House:

I am not the first President to take up this cause, but I am determined to be the last. (Applause.)



It bothered me the first time I heard it, and it still does for some reason. One could discount that statement as something he said without thinking, but... that is usually not the case with Obama, especially in a carefully drafted and important speech like that. It almost appeared that the message that he was trying to get across was that this reform was going to be the last and only health care reform we're going to see in our lifetimes. :shrug: I just don't get it.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. I hope I'm wrong but if this bill passes, I think it is the only reform we'll see in my lifetime. nt
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Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
17. Let's Review
Edited on Sat Mar-20-10 12:55 AM by Kalun D
Let's review shall we?

single payer and public option was never on the table because the corps own both the repugs and dems and they have for a long time.

2700 pages, everyone keeps saying they know what's in there, but has anyone read the entirety? Guarantee one thing that's in there, LOOPHOLES.

If this bill passes it will be a historic turning point from democracy to corporatocracy. This will be the first time that there is a mandate for all Americans to be forced to purchase something from a private for profit company.

It sort of fits right in with the privatizing of the voting machines. DEMOCRACY IS DEAD. With a super majority you would think the dems would be reversing the private vote machines, the fact that they are not proves they they are just as bad of scum-sucking sell-outs as the repugs, sold out to the corporations.

Think about it, the rest of the developed world has public health care. But in America we are to be forced to buy insurance, which is really just legalized gambling, from private "casinos" that take 30% profit off the top.

Looking back to the 80's when they made car insurance mandatory, they said rates would go down with more people in the pool, it never happened. The only difference is you aren't forced to drive a car, so you aren't forced to buy car insurance. But with mandatory health insurance you have to live, so you have to have health insurance.

It's not like we don't pay enough taxes, we should be getting something back for those taxes other than endless wars for the oil companies and defense industries. We pay more for "defense" than the next 10 countries combined, health care for all could easily come out of there.

When it comes to health care this country is really just a piece of crap. And our politicians are all pieces of crap for letting us put them into power and then selling out to the corporations. That includes Obama, he's just a DLC corporatist who made deals with big pharma and big health care to keep single payer and public option out of the bill.

Anyone waiting for real health reform to come along later is dreaming. It will be just like the repugs and abortion, roe-v-wade will never be repealed, they would have done it under bush if they were going to do it. Never, it keeps the peons voting repug. So we'll go on voting dem in hopes they will bring us HCR. If they didn't give it to us now with a super majority and the WH, they are NEVER going to do it.

Times are different now from when SS and Medicare were enacted, the corps have a stronger lock on everything including the media. It's time to move to another country.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
18. "First, do no harm" to be replaced by "do something even if stupid, its better than doing nothing"
What sort of journey do you have in mind? Today you favor a mandate that all must purchase health insurance, what mandate will you favor tomorrow?


My guess is that I refuse to see people sick and dying if we can do something about it. will very quickly become I refuse to see people sick and dying if YOU can do something about it. and that "something" you need to work with is the raw power to force others to do as you see fit.



"nothing is better than something"?


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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
20. Excellent post ...
Well said on every point.

:patriot:
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
26. Even NAFTA "worked" but that doesn't make it good
I hope you are right that this is a place to start, a building block. I'm concerned that it's just going to be a block. Like NAFTA.
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
30. This will destroy true reform for a generation
The reason I supported President Obama in the primaries is because I felt he was the best practical bet to change the structural failures in our system. I looked at then Senator Clinton and thought "No, she will cement the status quo. She is a tinkerer, not a changer." The American economy, including health care, is deeply structurally flawed. As a nation, we have been suffering a series of heart attacks for at least the last thirty years. And like heart attacks, each one is progressively worse than the one that came before. The economy bears this out very well. I think there will be a superficial recovery, and the numbers will be toyed with to say "Hey, we're not dying anymore!" But without serious, structural reform, without serious intervention, the next one will be worse and the one after that even more so, and so on until we pass the point of no return. Every time we do nothing, every time we band aid the problem up, we're guaranteeing worse outcomes.

So it is with health insurance reform. Rather than tackle the heart of the problem, the cost of care and the lead wall of insurance that stands between citizens and the help we need, this "reform" locks us into this failed structure for the foreseeable future.

There are some good things in the bill. There are some things that, were they presented as stand-alone bills, I would have absolutely no problem whatsoever supporting. But that is not what we're getting. What we're getting is blackmail.

This reform is a vigorous, substantial blackmail of the American people. They take little pieces of progress people are desperate to have and attach them to a larger, structural defeat for our economy and health care.

There is a massive difference between "Not perfect" and "Not entirely horrible" and it behooves us to know the difference. I think most of us do know the difference and do recognize the difference. I think most of us do realize this reform is firmly in the latter category. But we're so desperate, so pinched, in need of so much help in the midst of the most serious economic collapse since the Depression, that we're talking ourselves into this. We're screaming "We will take anything, anything at all!"

This bill is not leading to Universal Health Care. This bill is not a first step. This bill puts supportive mortar all over the wall of insurance that keeps people from affordable care. Universal Health Care requires at least some degree of socialization, but this bill goes in the opposite direction. This bill enshrines privatization and cements the failed structure of health care. This bill is guaranteeing that privatization is the order of the day, the only acceptable path, the tangible that will remain firmly in place by force of government in any future "fixes" that may or may not materialize.

This should be totally, absolutely unacceptable to us.

But it is not. People are desperate. They want something. The politicians know that any something is better than a nothing. They know how politics work. Even if that something is terrible on balance, even if that something will have grave consequences in the not-so-distant future. Even if that something, like NAFTA, has been rationalized as a good as it quietly erodes the American economic structure ever further and guarantees more suffering in the future. That's the future. Let's worry about it then. For now, we have elections coming up.

I would love to be wrong, but we have seen this play out. We are still watching these attitudes play out. This economic collapse is the direct result of this attitude during the last Democratic administration. People mention Social Security or Civil Rights as things that were built upon. Yes, built upon ages ago, with different politicians, in a different economy, in a different America.

We are not that America any longer. We need to look at modern, contemporary America for our political examples, and what we have are example after example of the parties cementing corporate control that results in the average citizen paying and paying and paying the price.

What does it take for people to say "I don't care what crumbs you're offering as you run off with the entire loaf for yourselves. This is no longer acceptable!"

This is no longer acceptable. We need to stop harming our nation and our citizens and doing it under the aegis of "Well, a couple of people will be helped. Maybe. Why do you hate them?" That's how Republicans get away with so much. Why does that now need to be the Democratic modus operandi as well?

Did you vote for that? I didn't.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. +1 (n/t)
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. +100,000
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. What is totally, absolutely unacceptable...
is to do nothing.

Without a foundation, there is no place to build. That is unconscionable.

At least we will have something to build with, anything less, is nothing.
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. That is not sound philosophy
Sometimes nothing is preferable when that something simply makes the problem worse. That foundation you speak of is the foundation of an economic prison, the walling up of the American people in private, for-profit schemes that will ensure care remains unaffordable and insurance continues being a barrier to a civil right.

As I said, blackmail.

You want "something" no matter how horrible the attending trade-off is. The politicians know this. So they'll pipe that tune and see how many follow.

How many times does this need to happen before you stop following them out to sea?

You're presented with, and defending, a false choice. "It is either this horror or nothing."

Why not a third way? Why not demand something else, something better, something that isn't how much harm we will swallow to squeeze out a sliver of good?

"Because, politicians don't work that way."

Ok, well, who's fault is that? If you keep going along with these practices, I'd say that fault is yours. All of this happens because we allow them to get away with it. Just as you want to let them get away with this. This is getting to be a bad domestic political abuse episode.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. I don't see Medicare as a prison...
I don't see Civil Rights legislation as a prison...they came around to be very liberating..

It is what you build on the foundation, and I'm going for the self fulfilling prophecy of all we can build is a "prison".
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. This isn't Medicare
This isn't close to Medicare, this isn't on the way to Medicare.

Civil Rights legislation came in a different era, with different politicians, in a totally different economic and corporate environment. The comparisons must be apples to apples, not apples to health insurance.

I think, at this point, if the absolute best arguments people can rummage are empty, months-old platitudes, just about everything that needs to be said about how awful this bill is has been - and mostly by its own supporters.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Your alternative, do nothing?
Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the EPA, OSHA, and virtually every other program grew incrementally.There had to be groundwork done, and then building could progress. Unemployment Insurance, the VA, virtually every program expanded from a seed. Originally, SS was not available to Civil Servants, farmers, Railroad workers and a host of other occupations. But they would never have become a part of the system if not for SS being there in the first place. Medicare would not be there w/o SS, they all had to have a beginning. SSI has been a saving grace for hundreds of thousands that otherwise would be forced to fend on their own, when incapable of doing so.

One need not be a historical scholar, not a political aficionado to realize that all change, especially social change, takes time and effort.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
31. What we "think" and what actually "is" are two very different things.
I thought there was hope...there isn't.

I thought we'd have some (even then I thought it was ridiculous) change...we didn't.

I thought "Yes we can" was a wonderful slogan...turns out that's all it was.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. You haven't seen any progress from this Adiministration?
Not just in HCR, but across the Board, there has been progress, some of the bush absurdities have been reversed, and others have been altered to benefit the citizen.

There are a lot of things that have moved forward, HCR has gotten the lions share of coverage, but there has been change.

Is there more room for change...you bet there is, but as long as we're moving forward, we are getting closer to something better, each step is a move in the right direction.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. No, I can honestly say that nothing I had hoped for has been done.
Sorry rasputin, you're on that train by yourself. We are not moving forward, we are stuck in a quagmire.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. You are entitled to your view, but there are things that have...
been accomplished.

Passing stimulus, generating jobs
Eliminating wasteful spending
Sotomayor nomination/confirmation
Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act
SCHIP expansion
Public lands bill
Credit card reform
Stem cell research

And a host of other items. Each of these has been a step forward. Is there room for improvement, sure; has everything I wanted been done, no.

But we are far better off today than we were 3 years ago, and I believe that in a couple of years, we'll be doing a lot better, once HCR has passed and is no longer the ponderous issue it has become.

I am not alone on this train...most of us are on board, knowing we're heading forward.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. You are on that train without me. You know that is how I meant it.
As for credit card reform and wasteful spending, I think you need to read up on those "accomplishements". Nothing that has been beneficial to this country as a whole has been done. You can scream it isn't so from the mountaintops, but you'd only get an echo back. Saying something doesn't make it so. Cheers.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
36. Thank you. n/t
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
39. Well said!
Recommended.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-20-10 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
46. Aye!
I subscribe to your view.

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