Murder rates rose when mental health institutionalization fell

[AngryAmish]

<http://volokh.com/posts/1177998929.shtml>

This is a very stats heavy post and I have trouble making sense of it all now that I am almost 20 years away from my last stats class, but the premise is when the closing of state mental institutions was done in the 70s and 80s the homicide rate shot up. Correlation or causation?


"Yesterday’s post triggered a lot of comments regarding this graph – it’s on page 23 of the new study on asylums and prisons that I was discussing previously. The figure graphs two time-series using national-level data: the overall rate of institutionalization in the United States (in mental hospitals and prisons) and the homicide rate over the period 1934 to 2001. The institutionalization trend line is scaled to the left-hand side and is high throughout the 1930s, 40s, and 50s; the homicide trend line is scaled to the right-hand side and rises sharply in the 1970s and 80s."

Anyway, read the whole thing and tell me if you think it is BS or right on or something else. I for one have always thought it was a crime to empty the institutions. I am living right now in a dumping ground for the insane by the state and it sucks.

[YOY]

1. Homelessness as well. I don't have stats but I have eyes.

n/t

[undeterred]

13. And unprosecuted rape rates rose as well.

Mentally ill women don't make good witnesses in court. I volunteered as a rape victim advocate in hospital emergency rooms in Chicago in the early 1980s. A lot of the women I saw were homeless, or living in shelters. They were mentally ill, on or off their medication, unable to protect themselves. The rape, basically, was free.

The only reason they were in the emergency room at all was because the police cared enough to bring them in and get them treatment, document what happened, and hope that eventually something would happen to a reliable witness who they could use to prosecute the sex offender.

When you're mentally ill you're an unreliable witness, and the rape is free.

[Warpy]

2. Demographics also had something to do with

that coincidence since deinstitutionalization started to take place about the time the first cohort of boomers entered those high crime potential years between 15 and 25. Deinstitutionalization likely had a very small effect on that statistic.

I worked in one of those "dumping grounds for the insane" back in the 60s. I thought at the time that a good third of the patients should have been treated in an outpatient setting. The other two thirds were clearly incapable of taking care of themselves, either because their disease rendered them incapable of doing so even with medication, or they showed signs of being noncompliant like trying to pouch their medication and spit it out later.

Throwing the people who couldn't or wouldn't care for themselves out and onto their own devices was the one of the worst things that has ever been done to a group of Americans. Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water by shutting the places down, they could easily have modified the system and made the places more humane, redesigning them to afford a certain amount of privacy (completely lacking in them) while providing care to people who were incapable of providing it for themselves.

Now we have the worst of all possible scenarios, a far too stringent interpretation of the "danger" standard, a lack of resources in the community, and jails being the insane asylum of last resort.

Those "dumping grounds" look humane by comparison. At least people there were trained in dealing with mental illness. Cops and guards are not.

[LisaM]

6. That is really well said

Thank you.

[Bluerthanblue]

3. this is stupid. It is also prejudiced. And offensive to say the

least-

Are you saying 'per' this article that the mentally ill are responsible for this rise?? If not what IS the point-

Excuse my bluntness- but I'm so angry I could spit-:nuke:


(ya might want to factor in who came into power during the time you are citing- and all the other crap that also "rose"- shall we blame the Mentally ill for the recession, Iran Contra as well???)

BIGOTRY SUCKS the life out of every one of us-

[AngryAmish]

4. Yes to some degree

A well maintained in patient program is much more humane and safer for the ill and the general population. It is a crime that as a society we chose to throw people on the street (to live on the street) when they clearly are detached from reality.

We may have built prisons to replace the asylums.

However, a poster above makes a good point about the Boomer aged cohort changing the crime patterns (young men commit the vast majority of the crimes).

[Bluerthanblue]

5. here is the reality as

it was for many-

Please look at this-

http://www.subcin.com/titicut.html

Sure, it would be GREAT to have a system where the truly needy had safe, healthy protective housing, treatment and supervision- (for the sake of both the individual AND society)- Do you really see that happening??? We won't even give health care to our citizens- And you think we'll pay for a DECENT MH long term care??? being mentally ill should not be a CRIME- If you will take the time and effort to look at statistics you'll find that the Mentally Ill are most often victims of crime, (not the perps).

We need to spend the money we WASTE on designing weapons to kill enemies that we are determined to create and nurture, on systems that address the very REAL PRESENT ills of our society and world- like health care, the environment, hunger, homelessness, disease, poverty, civil rights, prejudice etc.

[Sadie4629]

9. Maybe this is a factor

The murder rate may have risen because the mentally ill are the victims, not the perpetrators. Aside from children, they are probably the most vulnerable segment of our society, and they were thrown out on the streets with few if any resources and unable to protect themselves.

[EFerrari]

29. Thank you, Sadie.

You know, we don't need MORE stigma attaching itself to mental illness. We need LESS fear and MORE education.

[loyalsister]

24. You beat me to it

I would have also mentioned the alternative possibility of an increase in basic crimes as well as hate crimes against people with mental illnesess by family members as well as strangers.

Of course, the potential for such situations has yet to reach the collective conscience.

"No one is against the handicapped" the majority just happens to naturally exclude us from the experiences of "normal" people such as crime.

[EFerrari]

27. Yes, bigotry sucks and it's destructive. n/t

[Cetacea]

40. they just aint human, ya know

(intense sarcasm).

I am really getting fed up with reading threads that discriminate against the mentally ill. We need a sticky post or something akin to remind people that severely mentally ill people are in fact LESS likely to commit violent crimes than so-called normal people.

Thanks for your response
And some some food for thought: If Catkiller Frist had gotten his way, many DU'ers would have been diagnosed with mental illness.

Thanks for your response,BTb

[proud patriot]

7. Thank You Reagan

x(

[Sadie4629]

8. Reagan isn't responsible

The institutions started closing way before he took office. I had a friend in the early '70's whose mom suffered terrible bouts of depression, and he told me that she could only be hospitalized if she was suicidal.

Reagan did lots of lousy things, but this wasn't one of them.

[Bluerthanblue]

10. reagan is responsible for the

lack of funding- the NEGLECT of the mentally ill in society under his reign. And that reign was long and ugly for the "least" of us.

Your friend's mom shouldn't have been able to be hospitalized against her will if she was not a danger to herself or others- Being depressed shouldn't be a crime. Just because it is easier for family to not have to deal with the strain of coping with a loved one who is suffering, it shouldn't be an option to just lock them away somewhere-

I don't make this statement without understanding- My own mother was institutionalized when i was very young- She got shock treatments (in the barbaric days of ECT) returned home and spent the rest of her life in and out of the hospital, and of severe bouts of depression and mania interspersed with psychotic episodes.

Should we lock up people with other illnesses that make living with them difficult (at best)?

One thing that isn't taken into account very often is the number of Downs Syndrome people who now have a much greater opportunity of experiencing full productive lives, because the 'more convenient' choice of institutionalizing them was very difficult to find.

The "compassionate Conservative" movement that reagan was part of, is nothing but fancy words, which hide greedy egocentric apathy.-

Reagan had an opportunity to fund alternative services for the mentally ill- you'd have thought that would have been a priority after the assassination attempt on his life- but he did NOT- he dropped the ball BIG time.

[Cetacea]

42. Shock is still around and up to 100,000 humans per year.

I just thought I should point that out to you as you referred to the "former barbaric days of shock.."

These crimes against humanity, that is to say, medically-induced brain damage for-profit have been making a silent come back through the last 10 years or so. The estimates on how many people in the U.S. getting them annualy is one hundred thousand!

[Bluerthanblue]

43. oh, thanks, I knew

that, my reference to the barbaric days, was more about the way in which it was administered when my Mum had it-

i had been faced with the decision to have it myself- but didn't. While i don't like the concept- the results offered, (when nothing else seems to work, and death is pretty likely anyhow) are a better option than nothing.... i think.

The physicians i'm aware of who perform this, usually turn to it as one of the last options, and don't do it carelessly- My Mum was going to have a series of treatments about 3yrs before she died, but they discovered she had some cardiovascular problems that they didn't feel good about messing with and so it was canceled.

There probably are some MD's who aren't as conscientious, but none that i've come in contact with.-

peace,
blu

[Javaman]

12. Google is your friend...

http://www.sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas.html

[Roland99]

11. I'm sure there's some validity to a generalization but, w/o reading the whole thing...

there are many other factors to consider.

The 40s and 50s we were involved in WWII and then had the post-war boom. Economic good times are also a "cause" of lower violent crime (and vice versa - 70s/80s recessions, eh?)

[AngryAmish]

14. The poor are not per se violent, so economic conditions do not factor

There are many areas of the world where the poor are not violent. The murder rate did not shoot up during the Depression.

What you are saying is if someone is poor they might kill you. Actually, that is an unfair characterization of your argument but not money does not equal depravity.

When one does look at the statistics one finds that the poor commit the overwhelming majority of the murders in the US. However one might argue that being poor is symptom of a person who does not fit into society well (lack of education, bad temper) or whom the majority society despises.

[slackmaster]

15. Murder rates were actually quite high during the Great Depression

Recycled from another thread:



Associated article attempts to attribute the rise to the effects of the Volstead Act:

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/miron.prohibition.alcohol

...which I find interesting, since the high rates seen recently coincide with the War On (some) Drugs.

[AngryAmish]

16. Why did you have to go and prove me wrong?

I stand corrected.

[slackmaster]

18. You may not be wrong about the core topic

There definitely was a decline in mental health institutionalizations about the same time.

;-)

[Roland99]

17. No, I'm not saying that at all. However...

When one falls in the economic ladder and finds themself struggling to support a family, then crime can be an alluring alternative.

Ignore it all you want but there *is* a correlation.

[AngryAmish]

19. Property crime maybe, but murder?

[Roland99]

22. I wrote "violent crime". Armed robbery anyone? Murders happen there, too.

[EFerrari]

28. Are you writing a novel or do you have some facts in hand?

I can't believe I'm reading this on a progressive website.

:wtf:

Eat the poor. They deserve it. :sarcasm:

[Roland99]

30. It's common sense.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/25/AR2006122500467.html

Just as the waning of the crack epidemic, economic good times and general demographic trends contributed to the drop in crime, so a number of factors are probably at work now: a bulge in age segments of the population more prone to crime, the rise of methamphetamine use, a pinched fiscal climate for state and local governments that provide social services for people likely to turn to crime.

And look at slackmaster's graph in post #15.


When economic times are tough, those who feel they don't have opportunities will seek out other means, which, yes, can mean crime.

[EFerrari]

31. So, your answer is, you have no facts?

[Roland99]

32. Other than the ones I just provided you.

I could spend $35 and pull up some articles that are fee-based but I don't have the spare funds.


Maybe I should go rob a convenience store. ;)


BTW, did you even look at the graph in post #15 and note how crime has risen during periods of worse economic times and dropped during periods of bad?

[EFerrari]

34. And how do you tie that into mental illness?

My dog pooped yesterday and I found aphids on my roses. So? I doubt the aphids were in cahoots,lol.

The thing is, most people with those issues are the vulnerable, not the predators. We do ourselves no good by continuing this baseless fiction. We just make it harder to deal with the real challenges we have, which are mostly the challenge of delivering the great tech we have to a nation that refuses to believe that mental illness is real.

Unless we need something scarey under the bed. :shrug:

[Roland99]

35. Uh, I don't. I never did.

[Roland99]

33. But perhaps this will please you?

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:ga4hH4GqjXMJ:online.barrons.com/article_print/SB116683393811358244.html+%22Will+Violent+Crime+Mug+the+Economy%3F%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

Barron's article - Will Violent Crime Mug the Economy? (courtesy Google cache)

The FBI report for 2006's first half indicates the annual crime rate will be higher for the second consecutive year. Violent crime from January through June was up 3.7%, versus the first-half 2005 level. Robberies, a component of the category, rose 9.7%. Violent crime climbed 2.3% for all of 2005, with robberies up 3.9%.

Based on FBI reports going back to 1972 and the business-cycle chart compiled by the National Bureau of Economic Research, it looks as if violent crime trends upward at the beginning of a contraction and generally stays up through the initial phases of a recovery. The same pattern emerges when you overlay historical statistics for robbery alone from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Holdups increased noticeably in 1973, 1980, 1981, 1990 and 2001, years in which recessions began. Though we haven't offered this observation to the economics profession for rigorous review, it makes intuitive sense that, when times get tough, the toughs get tougher. If the robbery stat is higher when the FBI issues a full-year report in late summer or early fall, take some profits.

[EFerrari]

36. You have no reason to try to please me. And that report

has nothing to do with mental illness. Maybe we're talking across each other.

[Roland99]

37. Apparently you have me mixed up with someone else.

I never mentioned mental illness. In fact, in my first post in this thread I suggested that while there may be validity to a generalization (per the OP title), there are many other factors to consider, specifically economic times.

[EFerrari]

38. Ah. Then it was my misreading. I'm sorry. n/t

[Roland99]

39. No worries!

:hi:

[Solon]

25. Its not that the poor are more violent, its that the lack of economic security leads to...

desperation, and desperation leads to crime, whether violent or not. This is aggravated by the War on (some) Drugs, lack of police oversight in some cities, and the lack of a social safety net. Institutional racism, stratification of the classes, and the lack of access to quality health care, whether mental or physical, all contribute as well. Is it any surprise that among Industrialized nations the United States has both the worse crime rate, and the weakest safety net?

[bobbolink]

20. I'm so relieved we have a group of people on the bottom to blame for everything!!

:nuke:

[KamaAina]

21. Deinstutionalization was supposed to come with community treatment

You'll never in a million years guess who defunded the community treatment.

Wait! Did I hear "the repukes"? My, how time flies! :grr:

[krispos42]

23. And the crack-cocaine epidemic of the 80s

Randi Rhodes blames that one on the CIA, IIRC.

Loss of unions and union jobs, sending our manufacturing overseas, hundred of thousands of Vietnam vets with undiagnosed/untreated mental and physical problems, the decline of public education, the rise of two-income families to make ends meet, privitization of health-care institutions, regressive income tax structure.... and closing of mental health facilities.

What I find truly astonishing is that with all of these factors, there are a lot of people out there that think it can all be fixed with another election-losing gun ban.

[EFerrari]

26. Obviously correlation since people with mental health problems

are something like 10 times more likely to be VICTIMS than perpetrators.

Geezus.

[Madspirit]

41. I Was Around

...and dumped out of a state hospital, after two years. They used to take whole bus-loads from the state hospital in Austin and just stick them on buses. I went to the streets instead and stayed in Austin. Anyway, they emptied the hospitals and then "forgot" to fund any...ANY FUCKING help...no community outreach, no clinics...NO NOTHING...just a bunch of mentally ill people, with no support, shoved out into the world. Yup...that's how our loving country does things. That's how our loving country takes care of it's ill people. I was one of the ones who, back in the day, fought hard against involuntary commitments. They were using them politically. ...BUT there was supposed to be support. There was supposed to be clinics. There was supposed to be HELP. ...and there wasn't and there isn't.
Lee