Elian in Cuba!

[Madspirit]

I am not sure where I am supposed to put this question. It's about old, old, old, old news. You guy's opinions are important to me and interesting to me and this place wasn't around when it happened. ...but I sure would be interested in knowing your opinions on the Elian fiasco. What did you guys think at the time? Should he have been sent back to Cuba? Was Reno right to take him with guns in the face and all? Someone referenced Elian in another post and I am just curious. What did you guys think at the time? I wish DU had been around longer, since the beginning of time or something...<g>. I check all my opinions through you guys. I didn't really have a group to bounce this off of back then. I was confused. What did YOU think?
Lee

[DURHAM D]

1. Yes - He needed to go back.

The Florida Cubans just wanted him as a political tool. He was a little boy who needed to go home.

[trumad]

2. I'm a dad

and if some country refused to give my child back, well let's just say I'd take action.

[mondo joe]

I agree. I think the Miami family got off easy and they're lucky the raid was

effective as it was.

[sinkingfeeling]

3. I thought that Reno and the DOJ acted in accordance with law and that Elian

should have been sent back to his father.

[monmouth]

4. Elian needed to go back, and Reno did the right thing. There was

a picture of him not too long ago (sorry, don't remember the publication). He is a thriving and happy child from all indications, and with his dad and stepmother.

[Lex]

5. His mother was dead, right? And his father wanted his son back home.

People wanted to make an anti-Cuba political statement out of a little boy and that was sick. The people who were holding on to him had no legal right to do so.

He was a little boy who needed to go home and be with his Dad.

Elian and his father:

[spoony]

6. The raid was over the top

He should have gone back to his father, but that jack-booted bullshit shouldn't happen in this country.

It's also sad that he is trotted out as propaganda (just as he was here) instead of being allowed to grow up normally.

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. Is he?

:shrug:

[spoony]

18. Yes.

He's been front and centre at a number of rallies in the years since he was sent back, and is used on sites like this one:

http://cubasocialista.com/elian.html

[Clark2008]

26. He's so adorable

And the same age as my son.

Sorry - that had nothing to do with your post - but he is simply a cutie pie.

[Ignacio Upton]

43. That "cutie pie" is now 13

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elian_Gonzalez

I wonder how puberty is treating him, and if he'll show any "rebellion" against his dad and Castro.

[Clark2008]

81. Wow... time flies!

He was my son's age in the pictures posted on the site above.

I couldn't remember how young he was when all that happened. Or how incredibly long it's been. Wow!!

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. Wow

That looks like a web site from seven years ago.

I'm convinced.

[spoony]

45. Wow

That looks like denial sprinkled over ideology. I'm convinced.

[alcibiades_mystery]

77. Really

I thought it was just asking for evidence.

I guess asking for evidence makes one an ideologist these days, while providing no credible evidence makes one a lover of truth. Go figure.

Why so hostile? All I asked was for you to support your claim. If you can't do it with anything other than a 7 year old website, that's not really me insulting you, you know?

[spoony]

95. Willful ignorance

is inherently hostile. From 2004, 2005 and 2006:














I'm sure you think it completely natural for the leader of a country to get wrapped up in a custody battle and then appear with the child at state functions for years and years eh?

[alcibiades_mystery]

108. I don't know why you keep attributing positions to me

Your behavior is as hysterical as the usual ideological pablum coming from both sides of the Cuba thing. I just asked for evidence. That's what reasonable people do. Your hostility is evidence all on its own. It certainly makes you a less credible source. You seem to have your guts all tied up in this thing, based on your off the wall reaction to a simple request that you support your claim.

Calm down. Take a walk. You're making a fool of yourself.

[spoony]

111. Don't know if I've ever even met a Cuban

So no, I'm not particularly fond of the topic. But if I'm the only one who is going to put forth an opposing view (which, lol, isn't even opposing the bottom line that he should have gone back to his father), then so be it. Here's a summary:

1. Unnecessary police paramilitary operations are dangerous and anathema to a democratic society.
2. Children should not be used for propaganda.
3. It's equally as bad when Castro does so as when anti-Castro Cubans do.
4. Feigned impartiality is as inane as feigned ignorance.

[alcibiades_mystery]

112. I agree with 1-4

Your problem is that you see the impartiality as feigned. Just like any rabid ideologue, you mistake impartiality for opposition, and pretend that it is feigned when called on it. I really could care less about the whole thing, but your bizarre attacks are quite telling. Anyone not sharing your assumptions is an enemy, period. You've proved it here clearly enough. Laughable.

[spoony]

116. What's laughable is your pop psychology

And yes, I think your impartiality is feigned because you asked a question which tipped that off. Very few people on a site as well-read as this would be unfamiliar with the fact that Elian has been presented at numerous state functions over the last seven years, so asking for proof of such a widespread fact sends up a red flag that you're angling for something, which was confirmed by the snarky reply, "a web site from seven years ago. I'm convinced."

[alcibiades_mystery]

122. You accuse me of pop psychology

and then enter into some Freudian interpretation of my requests for evidence? Ay yay yay.

:rofl:

[BoneDaddy]

127. Someone needs an Spanish to English dictionary

on that site. It is the "right" wing.

[Malikshah]

22. Not over the top at all. Not one little bit. I was here during the whole

sorry mess. Traffic was being stopped by protestors (beyond the circus of the house where Elian was being kept). The community was out of control. Threats were being repeated over and over and over again.

No one was killed in the removal of Elian.

With all the crap that was flying around at the time, the "family" needed to a reality check.

We were waiting for a repeat of the LA riots in West Hialeah. It didn't grow to that size, bit it was on the edge.

[trumad]

23. You do realize that there were hundreds of Cubans, etc surrounding the house

who vowed to fight to death if the Gov came for Elain. What the hell were they supposed to do, send in Mother Teresa?

[Madspirit]

30. Mother Theresa...

That's funny. I know they had to do it but I still will never forget the look of horror on that little boy's face. I can still close my eyes and see it. I think the folks in Miami were horrible to use him like that, for their agenda against Fidel.
Lee

[trumad]

33. I'm just saying g that the safety of the Agents had to be a concern

The relatives were simply not going to give the kid up so they had to go in like they did to get him. I know it sucked, but I understand the show of force.

[Madspirit]

36. I Agree Trumad...n/t

[spoony]

42. Yes, poor poor armoured knights with machine guns

They were in sooo much danger. Maybe they could've lauched some tear gas too, drove a tank into the house, etc...

If you're against government brutality, you're against it regardless of politics, and I am. Some of you...eh...

[mondo joe]

65. There was plenty of danger, and for more than those in the raid. They did the best

job that could be done given the circumstances.

They moved with speed and precision, and acheived the goal without anyone being hurt.

How you haveturned that into "brutality" in your head is a mystery to me.

[spoony]

96. Paramilitary groups enforcing domestic law

is inherently brutal and uncivil.

Those guns weren't loaded with gum drops. The fact that no one died is a fucking miracle, not a bonus point for thugs. I suspect that even if they'd shot everyone in the house many here would still be apologising for them.

[mondo joe]

100. No, the fact that no one died is a testimony to their planning and implementation.

Of course they could have gone in without protection, as you seem to desire, and ended up in a violent siege in which people died.

But somehow THAT would have been okay. :eyes:

[spoony]

109. ...

See my post #107.

Fantastic assumption by the way, about the nightmarish seige. You should've described Elian dripping with blood for maximum emotional argument points though.

Apologists for police shows of force (when it suits or follows their political leanings) are amusing, but this notion that there was some armed and barricaded gunmen or something justifying the macho submachine gun bullshit they pulled is getting old.

[mondo joe]

110. You're full of shit. I can't believe you're defending these kidnapping assholes.

If a sniper was used to shoot every holding him in the house in the head it wouldn't have been over the top.

I have zero problem with appropriate use of police force. Rescuing this kid from a violent mob was as appropriate as it gets.

The fact is this approach got the kid out with no one hurt.

[spoony]

113. I'm NOT, what I'm saying is that defaulting to a position of

using paramilitary units for domestic situations when a few armed officers outside would have done a better job is what is bullshit.

A violent mob? Again, how many officers were assaulted, how many weapons recovered, how many arrests?

Would you also support the use of force against other kinds of protestors, with the argument that they might be violent?

Do you really not get why this is a problem?

[mondo joe]

114. Your assumption is that a few armed officers would have done a better job is uninformed

hogwash.

I don't support the use of force against protesters. I do support it against kidnappers.

[spoony]

117. Explain your position. Why wouldn't they have been as effective?

Are a few MP5s not intimidating enough? Do they have to go right in and stuff the muzzles in the dumb fisherman's face?

[mondo joe]

118. Because the family had already promised resistence and an armed mob outside

the house had already promised violence in retaliation for any effort to take Elian.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting: they managed to safely get Elian out without injury to anyone. It was safe, it was effective.

Putting a muzzle in the face of the kidnapper got the job done.

You'd rather risk lives, I'd rather risk the feelings of the kidnappers.

[spoony]

119. The way I see it, using SWAT only increases the odds

of someone getting hurt. In almost every situation. I respect that you disagree, but to me they made it more likely that violence would break out by the mere appearance of such a raid. People will sometimes freak out when they see an armoured unit coming at them and do something stupid. It isn't about their feelings inasmuch as it's about how they may have reacted to a perceived assault on the house. I just don't think they should have been used here, and I don't consider the positive outcome a vindication for such tactics.

[mondo joe]

121. Since NO ONE was hurt it effectively demonstrates the way you see it is wrong.

You can say it made it more likely for violence to break out - but it didn't happen, did it?

The SWAT team made it possible to do the rescue like a surgical strike - they were in and out in a matter of minutes. It didn't leave time or opportunity for violence

Your proposed method would have necessarily taken a lot longer, significantly increasing the window of opportunity for the family or crowd to resist or get violent.

You have a theory about what might have worked - the record, however, makes the case of what DID work with zero harm to anyone as a result.

[trumad]

67. Horse shit...

It's called law and order and the relatives were breaking the law. There was no brutality--- none whatsoever. Nobody got hurt and Elian was extricated from a very dangerous situation.

[LostinVA]

102. BINGO -- great post

These "relatives" should have had their asses attested and thrown into prison.

[Shakespeare]

69. Well, let's see: we've got bomb-happy CANF loons threatening violence....

Yes, going in armed to the teeth was the only way to do it. If you think otherwise, then you don't know shit about what was going on in Little Havana in the middle of that spectacle.

This wasn't brutality, it was justifiable force used ONLY for defense.

[Canuckistanian]

92. If you all don't remember

There were reports that the Cuban ex-pats were arming themselves to the teeth and threatening violence if they tried to deport Elian.

This "jack-booted shit" didn't just come from nowhere.

[Madspirit]

91. Simplistic

It wasn't government brutality considering what they were facing. You must not know much about the Florida Cubans. They are not known for their pacifism.
Lee

[Cha]

46. It shouldn't happen in this country

but a lot worse has happened in this country before and since the Elian Gonzales case.

I was glad that he got to go back to his father and so what they take pictures of him?

I'm thinking it's a lot more normal for Elian with his father than his crazed Miami relatives taking him to fucking disneyworld.

[spoony]

51. "a lot worse has happened"

well then, that makes it fine. Really, what kind of argument is that?

And if you don't get how exploitation there is as bad as exploitation here--that he shouldn't be exploited by ANYONE--then what can I tell you?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

59. You say he should've gone with his dad, but the raid was too much. What, then, do you

suppose should have been done to reunite them?

[spoony]

93. You don't think there's a middle ground

between giving in to his Florida relatives and busting into the house with SWAT teams?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

99. When they've defiantly surrounded the home with dozens of anti-Castro people? No.

You didn't suggest a "middle way" as per my question, either. I answered yours.

[spoony]

107. Here's your answer: it's common sense

The only armed officers should have remained outside, since all of you agree that that's where the threat was. There was literally no reason on earth to exaserbate the situation by using such heavily armed and armoured officers inside the house.

How many guns did they find, by the way? How many people fought them?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

126. How would they possibly know the people inside were unarmed? These people

had in effect abducted a child, held him in defiance of government order, and put a mob in the streets around their house. Where in the police manual does it say, only weapons outside, and no weapons inside?

No one likes that there had to be an armed police action. The Miami relatives and their anti-Castro supporters forced this type of action.

Are you honestly suggesting that there would be a separate unarmed police faction to enter the house? Why would they do that in the Elian case and in no other hostage rescue in history? What if the people in the house were armed? How could the police/DOJ personnel possibly know otherwise? :shrug:

[mondo joe]

103. SWAT teams are the apppropriate response to kidnappers.

Particularly kidnappers who are surrounded by a bunch of assholes who have threatened violence if anyone tries to rescue the kidnapped child.

[Cha]

61. You're saying it shouldn't have happened

and I'm talking about reality.

I don't think he's being "exploited" there ..a few fucking pics to show he's alright.

What's the big deal for you if Elian is with his father?

[mondo joe]

63. How else do you think they should have gotten him back to his family?

Please explain.

[JI7]

86. the family forced it

they were given MANY chances to allow him to be with his father. they were defying court orders.

[LostinVA]

101. His -- literally -- criminal and nutty relatives were breaking Federal law

They refused to turn him over. The only thing Reno did wrong was:

1.) Take so long to do it, and

2.) Not throw their disgusting asses in Federal prison

I don't consider armed law enforcement rescuing a child from criminals "jack-booted bullshit." No one was hurt, no property was hurt, and a parent's custodial rights were upheld.

For the record: I am a very "anti-cop" person. I would be one of the first DUers to jump all over any "jack-booted bullshit."

[blm]

7. The RW forced the show of power - but it was badly played on both sides.

No one came out looking good through their fumbling of the debate over it.

[Madspirit]

8. I agree with ALL of you!...

I did kind of wish they didn't have to use the big guns but that wasn't Reno's fault. It was the fault of the folks holding the little boy.
Lee

[CottonBear]

9. Reno was right: Elian belonged with his father at home in Cuba.

The Miami relatives were totally crazy. The mother was dead and the father wanted for him to come back home as would any parent.

[eleny]

10. From The Guardian

[no_hypocrisy]

11. I remember the exploitation of that boy. Rudy Giuliani wanted him to

pull the lever for the Times Square New Years Eve ball.

[Cha]

62. You're kidding, right?

Please tell me.

[kskiska]

82. All true about Giuliani

From Charlie Rangel:

(snip)

DON'T DEMAGOGUE ELIAN



Rudy Giuliani apparently cares more about using little Elian Gonzalez's terrible plight for his own political purposes than talking about issues that really matter to residents of the State of New York.

Elian is the 6-year-old boy who through no fault of his own was shipwrecked off the coast of Florida, lost his mother, and has fallen into the middle of an international custody battle. Now the Mayor's aides say Mr. Giuliani is considering inviting Elian to New York to stand with him in the spotlight during our city's millennium celebrations. If the Mayor and his people succeed in getting Elian here for New Year's Eve, they will have literally dropped the ball.

This is a political year for Mr. Giuliani. It's one thing for him to arrest homeless people in an attempt to boost his Senate candidacy. But it's quite another to take an innocent child who lost his mother and is away from his father this Christmas and put him in a terrifying situation, on stage, in front of millions of people.

How would any parent react to their child being used without their permission in a blatant attempt to boost the Mayor's hopes for higher office? Does Rudy Giuliani have no shame in seeking to satisfy his own ambitions?

more…
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/hearing/ny15_rangel/oped_991217_alian.html

[Cha]

90. Thank you! I rest my case.

Oh yeah, they're really exploiting the hell outta Elian in Cuba..they got rudy beat all to shite..:sarcasm: :sarcasm:

The disgraceful ghoul in action.

[mudesi]

12. His father is not the American government.

There really is not much more to say than that.

[WinkyDink]

98. Nor they, he, which is more to the point.

[bunkerbuster1]

13. I learned something important when Elian was seized

For the record I felt strongly that Elian needed to be back in Cuba with his dad, and that his rather distant relatives in FL were milking him for publicity.

But what I learned the morning that news broke, was just how horrible Fox News was as a resource.

It was my first exposure to it. Fox News had been added recently to our cable line-up, and I thought I'd give it a chance.

"My. god." I thought. I'd never seen anything like it. I'd really expected to turn on the news and learn something about this story. I DIDN'T think I'd hear a half dozen talking heads literally expressing the exact same outrage over the seizure, without a dissenting soul in sight.

It was shocking, then. Now, it's what I expect.

[mainer]

37. That's when I first had my epiphany about Fox, too!

Until then, I had no idea.

[bunkerbuster1]

39. Really? It was, I think, a Sunday morning for me.

Looking back it was probably some regularly scheduled gabfest, crammed full of conservative talking heads. But I was foolish enough to think that if I'd tune into a "news channel" that I'd get actual news.

It was really, really weird.

I guess what's sad is, it doesn't seem weird any more.

[LostinVA]

104. ME TOO!

I was watching them, and they had GLORIA ESTEFAN on, and they were both crowing about how poor little Elian had to stay in the US, and away from his evil Commie daddy. Estefan, who dotes on her kids and whose own father was a Batista loyalist. That day I learned:

1.) Fox News was propaganda, and
2.) I would never, ever listen or buy another Gloria Estefan CD again -- ever. And haven't. They all went into the trash that day.

[bunkerbuster1]

123. Didn't know that about Gloria

Didn't really care about her then, don't now, but I really had no idea of her political leanings.

[LostinVA]

124. I didn't until then

I remember her "solution" was to build a bunker in Little Havana, and let Elian and his father live there under supervision.

[ContraBass Black]

14. Isn't he nearly adult by now?

[Madspirit]

16. I guess late teens by now?...n/t

[endarkenment]

17. Suppose Elian were your kid.

Wouldn't you want him back? Wouldn't you expect that the government in charge would take your kid away from the people holding him and return him to you? WTF?

[Igel]

38. It's a question.

I think a number of Mexican parents who immigrated illegally and had kids here are asking precisely that question. Parents want their kids with them; and they also want what's best for their kid.

Once Elian made the media, he became a pawn of Cuban nationalists and anti-Castro partisans. At that point it no longer mattered what his father would have wanted in the absence of the rah-rah nationalism and anti-Cuban rhetoric.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

19. Elian should be 12 or 13 this year sometime, I think.

That's hardly an adult.

That whole situation just sickened me. The family in FL was being used by the right wing Cubans just to score political points and the corporate media just ramped up the coverage to make Janet Reno the bad guy in the whole thing. It was disgusting.

That little boy needed his father, not his crazy Miami relatives.

[dave_p]

24. Yes

13

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

28. Actually he will be 14 in December.

Google "Elian Gonzalez".

[jberryhill]

20. It Was a Child Custody Case - Period

The "family values" crowd demonstrated utter hypocrisy on this one.

[Cleita]

21. Poor little kid. The effing media put him through a circus.

Janet Reno was right to return him to his father although I have to agree the way the raid was done must have been terrifying to the poor child. I think a couple of days more to enlighten the Miami relatives about the fact that they were breaking the law and could be arrested and go to jail might have made the transfer less traumatic.

[Shakespeare]

70. Do you remember Diane Sawyer glomming onto him?

God, what a despicable creature she is.

[Cleita]

88. Everyone behaved badly in this.

Then they did it all over again for the Terri Schiavo episode. Those people are dispicable. I never cared for Diane Sawyer anyway.

[kskiska]

25. Elian would be in a Miami gang right now

if that criminal family had been allowed to raise him. Lazaro had no visible means of support and their twin sons had been convicted to robbing tourists.

What happened to all the dire predictions that if Elian were returned to Cuba he'd be deprived of milk and forced to work in sugar cane fields? His dad always had special perks because he worked at a resort and had access to American dollars. Now he's a member of parliament, his house has been refurbished, and Elian has a comfortable, relatively normal life. He's brought forward on occasion, but if he'd remained here, don't you suppose he might be sitting next to Laura Bush at the SOTU?

[ronnykmarshall]

27. He needed to go home

and I wanted to slap the shit out of his family in Miami and "the fisherman" that took up with one of the cousins.

The day they took Elian, that one cousin and "the fisherman" were playing to cameras like the true media whores they were.

[DURHAM D]

29. Some would argue that the return cost Gore the election.

The Dems were making headway with Cuban Americans - had gained 10-15% of their votes. After Clinton/Reno decided to send him back Gore had to stop campaigning in the Cuban communities for fear of large anti demonstrations.

If I recall correctly Gore tried to pander to the Cuban-American community with poor results. One thing the incident did show all of America - some of those Cubans, esp. the older ones, were absolutely off their rockers.

Also, if I recall correctly the Fanjul (sp?) family (wealthy Cuban American sugar growers) help fund the Bush recount (although they spend monies on both sides of the aisle) and the attorney who worked for Kathryn Harris was the Fanjul family attorney.

Note: One of the times Clinton was being serviced by Monica he was actually on the phone with a member of the Fanjul family. God, I wish I didn't know that.

[BuyingThyme]

31. He was the Terry Schiavo for Cuban Pukes.

[seabeyond]

32. it has nothing to do with a country, dictator or someone we dont like. but a father and son.

the son belongs to the father. period. no one has the right to keep a son from a father. it is absurd with the family value party actually arguing to keep a son away from a father after the death of a mother.

[Madspirit]

35. They Wanted

They wanted to do the anti-commie crap. The RW really played on this whole tragedy. Jeez, that poor little boy was lucky he hadn't been shark food. Then swept up by human sharks...it was ridiculous.
Lee

[RC Quake]

40. I thought he should be returned.

But my neighbor, who escaped from Cuba at the age of 12 with her parents disagreed.

Most of her family is still there and she cannot see them again...ever. Her daughter graduated from West Point and requested her first station be in Cuba, however, she risked the chance of being taken into custody for her mother's betrayal of the country. She's in Iraq instead.

Go figure.

[Judi Lynn]

50. The travel ban is imposed by the US, not Cuba. Cuba welcomes American visitors

anytime.

Until _Bush closed off visits to Cuba by Cuban Americans to only one every three years, with no exceptions, they all had the opportunity to go back and forth to Cuba. There were regular scheduled daily flights to Cuba from Miami, Los Angeles, and I think from New York.

Ordinary Americans have always been forbidden to go by this government, but could travel with special government permission.

There have been quite a few DU'ers who have made multiple trips to Cuba. At least one DU'er has gone there with Pastors for Peace in the last year.

[RC Quake]

55. The difference is

She ESCAPED from Cuba. She didn't just jump on a plane for a vacation. She cannot return, as she will be immediately arrested. Her family cannot leave because of what her parents did.

[LostinVA]

105. I would be very, very surprised if they would have arrested her

Actually, I'm betting the odds would be ZERO.

Many Cubans have been able to go back and visit. Only the US stops them.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

41. Does a foreign father have parental rights? That's the end of it.

If he doesn't then we would be justified in raiding homes in other countries and bringing back their kids because it's better here.

[ProudDad]

52. He does when the courts say he does...

"Attorney General Janet Reno ordered the return of Elián to his father and set a deadline of April 13, 2000, but the Miami relatives defied the order. Negotiations continued for several days as the house was surrounded by protesters as well as police. The relatives insisted on guarantees that they could live with the child for several months, retain custody, and that Elián would not be returned to Cuba. Negotiations carried on throughout the night, but Reno stated that the relatives rejected all workable solutions. A Florida family court judge revoked Lázaro's temporary custody, clearing the way for Elián to be returned to his father's custody."

"Four hours after he was taken from the house in Miami, Elián and his father were reunited at Andrews Air Force Base. The next day, the White House released a photograph showing a happy Elián reunited with his father, which the Miami relatives disputed by claiming that it was a fake Elián in the photograph. Later, Elián and his family were to be taken to the Aspen Institute Wye River Conference Center (formerly known as "Wye Planatation"). The media was barred from access to the family. While the family was still at Andrews, New Hampshire Senator Bob Smith, escorting the Miami Gonzálezes, was turned away from the base by guards"

"After Elián was returned to his father's custody, he remained in the U.S. while the Miami relatives exhausted their legal options. A three-judge federal panel had ruled that he could not go back to Cuba until he was granted an asylum hearing, but the case turned on the right of the relatives to request that hearing on behalf of the boy. On June 1, 2000, the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that Elián was too young to file for asylum; only his father could speak for him, and the relatives lacked legal standing. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to review the decision. On June 28, 2000, Elián González and his father returned home to Cuba."

Google is your friend...

[Proud2BAmurkin]

71. Nope, he does period.

If a court said otherwise the court would be wrong. We don't get our rights from courts.

[Jack Rabbit]

44. At the time I was the single father to a teenager

My sympathies where fully with Juan Gonzales. As far as I was concerned, that was the only correct position.

BTW, don't check your opinions through me. You don't need my permission to think for yourself.

[Catherine Vincent]

47. Don't get me started talking about Elian. I remember it well.:)

I and many others had been discussing the situation for a while online. It was when CNN still had it's message boards. And it just happens, the night before the rescue, we were online discussing it. There was something in the air that it was getting close to a climax. Cameras were always staked out in front of the house in Miami. Anyway, back to the night before, we were discussing it late that Friday night (it was good Friday). Finally when 1:00a.m. came, I decided to call it quits and head for bed. So I did but I kept the tv on CNN International because the tv always put me to sleep. Before I fell asleep I heard the "Breaking News" theme music and I got out of bed and popped a tape in because I had this feeling it was about Elian. Sure enough, it was. They were taping before they actually came out with the boy. The reporter said they didn't know what was going on but it was some activity in and around the house. You heard a lot of screaming and before you know it, out came INS agents with the little boy. They were whisked away in the white vans.

After watching this, I went back to my computer and started the discussion again. There were still a couple of posters still online. As minutes went by, the discussion kept picking up more posters. We were all excited and congratulating Janet Reno and the INS. Imo, it was a well done operation. No one was hurt badly, except for one of the guys around the house getting in the way. I think his nose was bloodied. All in all, it was a success. The relatives in Miami (and many other Cuban-Americans) was very upset with what took place, they were saying he was kidnapped. LOL! Elian's father was waiting for his little boy in another part of town, I believe. They were finally reunited. I still have that tape somewhere. The lawyer for the father had to get pictures pretty fast to the media of Elian and his father because the idiot republicans on the other side kept showing the pic of the INS agent of the gun pointing at Elian and the fisherman. We found out later their weapons weren't loaded. I was very glad it had a happy outcome. About a week later, I had found out that a lot of anonymous people had flowers delivered to Janet Reno's office. That was the first time I heard about flowers being sent to a public official.

[ronnykmarshall]

56. The aftermath was sickening.

His Uncle and that one cousin Marselias were mugging for the camera, screaming and crying.

I found this picture ...... it's fits.



Great article too.

http://www.johnmonty.com/cotw/cw000429.htm

[malaise]

48. Yes dads come first

Always.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

49. For a child to be robbed from his father because of political beliefs is wrong.

At the time I thought he should be returned to the father and I still think this was the right thing.

[ProudDad]

53. I'll bet that if the roles were reversed

and the living parent were in the U.S. and the child in Cuba, the child would be turned over to its parent without this kind of circus.

Those Miami cubans were driven by their right-wing-nut politics to make such a Federal Case out of this.

[TahitiNut]

72. 100% agreed. Janet Reno was far more patient than I'd have been.

The mere fact that the non-custodial parent put his life in jeopardy annoyed the hell out of me.

[Judi Lynn]

54. A couple of more recent photos:

With father, Juan Miguel Gonzalez, and grandmother, Yidira Garcia



Elian at 11

Here's an article from CBS' "60 Minutes" on a visit with Elian in 2005:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/28/60minutes/main888950.shtml

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last Updated: Friday, 30 September 2005, 22:27 GMT 23:27 UK
Elian interview sparks Miami row


Cubans celebrated when Elian was returned to his father
Relatives in Florida of the shipwrecked Cuban boy Elian Gonzalez have criticised an interview with him to be shown on US television on Sunday.
In excerpts from the CBS network's 60 Minutes show Elian, now 11, calls Cuban leader Fidel Castro his friend.

He also accuses his family in Miami of trying to turn him against his father during a custody battle in 2000 which culminated in his return to Cuba.

A spokesman for the Florida relatives said Elian had been brainwashed.
(snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4299294.stm

[ronnykmarshall]

58. "A spokesman for the Florida relatives said Elian had been brainwashed."

:eyes:

Poor things, they lost their cash cow when Elian was sent home to his father.

[Madspirit]

60. What a handsome young man

...and he looks happy too!
Lee

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

57. It was mostly a good outcome

I think the kid needed to go back to his father. The cops needed to be well-armed to keep the crowd from getting incited and doing something dangerous.

But Janet Reno shouldn't have gone down there. This should have been handled by lower-level attorneys. The AG presence gives the situation more "credibility" than it deserved. I thought her personal involvement was undignified.

[mondo joe]

64. He should have been returned to his father who was responsible for him.

Thought it then, think it now.

By whatever means necessary.

[treestar]

66. I recall being totally frustrated by the concept that people could not

understand the difference between family law and immigration law.

A child can sue, make any claim there is, so long as there is an adult guardian, and a court can appoint one. He at least had the right to make the claim for asylum. If it was denied, fine. If it was granted, he had the right to stay. Then whoever was going to get physical custody could be decided.

Human rights trump parental rights. If a parent wants to deprive his/her child of his/her human rights, someone steps in. Children are not property.

[Madspirit]

73. No, No, No, No

If one parent dies, the other parent gets to keep their children. He had a dad and the dad loved him and wanted him and HE wanted to be with his dad. He needed no asylum hearing. He needed to be returned to the only family he had ever known.
Lee

[ConsAreLiars]

94. Interesting. So you think if your kid somehow ends up in some foreign

land in the hands of some distant relative, whatever type of court system that exists there has the absolute right to keep your kid from being returned to you if that government so decided. Not many parents, or humans, would agree, but you show an admirable (to some) willingness to put aside your personal interests and obligations in favor of state power.

[mondo joe]

106. Elian already had a guardian: his father.

On June 1, 2000, the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that Elián was too young to file for asylum; only his father could speak for him, and the relatives lacked legal standing. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to review the decision.

[laylah]

68. Please, someone correct me

if I am wrong but I believe it was very early Easter morning when Elian was rescued from the freak family in Miami. I was asleep on the couch, to awaken to shouts of "BINGO! BINGO! BINGO!". I was SO elated that little boy was to go home. Whether he has been used for propaganda in Cuba, or not, makes no difference to me. Hell, he was being used as propaganda HERE. I just wanted him home with his PaPa and was joyous Reno made it happen.

Jenn

[Catherine Vincent]

78. I remember the "Bingo bingo bingo". Those were the words INS agents used

to alert everyone that the kid was in their possession. It was either the morning of Good Friday or that Saturday after. It wasn't Easter Sunday. I rememember it well because I couldn't go to sleep that early morning when it happened. I will always remember Janet Reno for that. It was like watching a movie or something. :)

[Alexander]

74. That was such a fucking stupid situation...

Made worse by Elian's nutcase, attention-hungry relatives in Miami.

Reno did exactly the right thing. The anti-Castro crowd was never going to negotiate (they like Batista. Negotiation is not a skill he valued) and even the most reasonable of proposals was rejected. They formed a mob around the house and were determined to never let the poor kid go, even if it meant breaking the law and possibly injuring others.

I'm no Castro fan, but you don't need to be to realize that the anti-Castro Cubans are not only nuts but very dangerous to this country.

[Madspirit]

76. I don't understand Cuba

I don't understand why we still don't have normal relations with Cuba. We have made friends with much worse despots. Osama and Saddam come to mind. ...and PRC.

Actually, I have my theories...but they are rooted in Psychology, not politics.
Lee

[ProudDad]

84. 2 reasons

1) The Cuban people decided to be Socialist instead of cogs in the Capitalist wheel. Huge sin just 90 miles from the capitalist wet dream.

2) The Mafia -- they never forget and they never forgive. They were deprived of their corrupt playground in Havana.

[Madspirit]

87. Good Points

Yes, I always remember the Cuban scenes in The Godfather, where Fredo betrayed the Corleones...

Those are great points. I'm sure having Communism THAT close just sticks in our government's craw.

I always thought, from a psychological standpoint, that our pasty white male presidents were jealous of the Machismo...<g> I mean, something about those guys. I'm a 53 year old lesbian and the men I have hanging on my wall are Giles and Xander, from Buffy, Spock and Kirk and Mulder........and Che...<g>
Lee

[Hell Hath No Fury]

128. One word:

Florida.

And it's importance in winning Presidential elections.

There isn't a major candidate or party willing to risk alienating the Cubans/Cuban Americans living in that state by saying it is beyond time we normalize relations with Cuba.

We are doing business with Communist China and letting them eat us for lunch -- and us smiling all the way -- but Castro and Cuba??? Not a chance. :eyes:

I pray for the people of Cuba when Castro passes -- the vultures in Miami and the government have been circling for years, waiting for the chance to take over the country.

I have a radical idea: How about we let the Cubans decide their own future? What a radical thought...

[Blue_Tires]

75. I remember the behavior of Bob Smith (jerkoff) - NH

was some of the most insane shit i'd even seen a congresscritter even ATTEMPT until Santorum/Inhofe/Coburn came along...

[kskiska]

83. Yeah. The dumbass flew the "Miami Relatives'" flying circus,

including "The Fisherman" up to Andrews Air Force Base and tried to get them in to where Elian was with his father. He was unsuccessful, so they all gathered outside the gates with Easter baskets for Elian, sobbing and playing to the TV cameras.

[electron_blue]

79. I can't believe that was only 7 yrs ago. I just looked it up. I would have guessed 15-20 yrs ago

Obviously, I was pretty clueless about Elian's situation, and Cuba, as well.

[DawgHouse]

80. I thought they did the right thing and I still do.

[JI7]

85. i was disgusted by those who wanted to keep him from his father

every once in a while something happens where one side just goes overboard and makes me angry. a few examples are the Republicans that went after Clinton for the blow job. the Elian case was another one.

many things happened back then that made me angry. the hypocrite elected officials who wanted to grant Elian American Citizenship right away. the stupid family members and their exploitation of the boy.

[Madspirit]

89. YES! A very exploited boy...n/t

[WinkyDink]

97. Well, since kidnapping a child from his father is a crime, I'd say it was proper to RESCUE HIM

and send him back HOME to his FATHER.

NO GUNS were "in the face" of ELIAN, and the photos exist to prove that.

[LostinVA]

125. His mother also broke the custody agreement by leaving with him

Unfortunately, her decision left a little boy without his mother.

:sigh:

[Little Star]

115. Dannie-lynne's father Good, Elian's father Bad,

What a world!!!! Naturally, child belongs to birth father unless he is unfit! Those Miami Cubans are not so bright in IMHO.

[Marie26]

120. Miami Cubans are crazy. nt