BREAKING: 6 shot near downtown Jacksonville

[Bluebear]

More guns! More carnage! More, more ,more!

[NightWatcher]

1. It's no big deal, just the daily mass shooting

One day a school, the next a mall, and now this today.

[Madspirit]

You Forgot the shooting at NASA

A fired or disgruntled employee took someone out at NASA the same day of the VT shootings. Jeez...more than one a week lately.
Lee

[LoneDriver]

13. Is it something in the food???

NT

[POAS]

More likely something in their hands.

[Hangingon]

77. It sounds like the KC mall shooter ...

was a disgruntled/fired employee too.

[H2O Man]

18. I think the NASA

shooting was 4 days later. The frequency and intensity of these events is clear evidence of the sickness of our society at this time.

[symbolman]

81. It's the ultimate WEDGE issue

Take away the GUNS and watch the Liberals tear each other apart. The right wing will keep theirs.

They are letting this happen, I fully believe it. They THRIVE on CHAOS, it's how they WIN.

[Roland99]

2. With FL's new gun laws, why didn't some gun-toting Freeper Saviour take out the shooter?

Slackers.

[Bluebear]

3. It WOULD be safer if we all had guns.

Wasn't that the lesson from Virginia Tech? :eyes:

[undeterred]

9. I'm going to bring it up at the next Quaker meeting.

We must be ready.

[slackmaster]

39. In all seriousness, the lesson of VT was that a gun-free zone without real security measures

Is useless.

[Virginia Dare]

79. Or that somebody judged to be dangerously mentally ill..

shouldn't be able to waltz into a gun shop and leave with a weapon in hand.

[slackmaster]

85. Even the NRA agrees with that one

As do I.

[rodeodance]

4. packing is not a good idea. pure and simple

[Pharaoh]

5. Thats the Problem

It's the Freepers doing all the shooting!

[The_Casual_Observer]

6. They wouldda shouldda couldda. Just ask 'em.

[Roland99]

15. Oh yeah. That's exactly what I was thinking....

"Yeah, well, that shooter's just DAMN lucky *I* wasn't there. I'd have blasted his ass into next week! Boy, I tell you."

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[underpants]

14. I guess not a single one of them tough talk types was around

well at least they aren't the tough talking types now.

[originalpckelly]

17. What should the laws be?

[Roland99]

19. Well, imo, something that doesn't approach supporting vigilantism (sp?)

[Bluebear]

21. Of course, every time there is an incident someone will ask you that

And warn that Democrats will "lose votes" if we don't protect the second amendment, yada yada yada.

All without proposing something to stop these almost daily occurrences of gun violence.

[Roland99]

Well, imo (again), it's not about gun control laws or the lack thereof...

It's about our awareness of mental illness and poverty.

One thing you can look at is a trend for violent crime, esp. gun-related, to increase during hard economic times and also during times of heat waves.

We all know what shape our economy is. Well, at least those of up here do.


And, to be honest, more cops on the street patrolling, esp. in high-crime areas, wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing but hasn't the legislation Kerry was instrumentally involved in (putting 100,000 cops on the street) been cut back by this administration?

[Roland99]

29. Ha! Speaking of mental illness >>>>>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x796933

[Union Label]

59. Every time one of these rethug nuts goes on a rampage

we are losing votes from the ones they shoot. ;(

[originalpckelly]

22. And what should the laws be?

Concealed gun permits? A complete ban on concealed weapons? How do you know someone is carrying a concealed weapon? How do you know they're violating the law? Is it reasonable to expect them not to break a law prohibiting murder, yet not break a law merely banning the concealment of firearms?

[Roland99]

24. CCW is a treat tossed to the gun lobby. It really has no effect in the grand scheme of things.

Seriously, unless we ALL start packing, the odds of someone actually carrying and being in the right place at the right time to stop something like this is beyond astronomical.

As I wrote in the post above, gun control laws or the lack thereof are not going to change much, if anything.

[originalpckelly]

30. Actually, I agree with you on that. Not enough people want to own guns...

to make a dent in the problem, and there would be a massive uptick in accidental and passion killings.

I think we do need to improve the cop patrols. I think most communities should look into putting up cop kiosks, where they can get deep penetration into a neighborhood and get a good knowledge of the people in the neighborhood.

[Roland99]

32. Yeah, going to the VT massacre, picture guns in every dorm room and then drunken parties.

Yeah, that's a formula for safety! :eyes:


As for more cops, picture one week of expenses in Iraq and how much that could help out.

:(

[slackmaster]

34. For an individual who gets a permit and carries, it's all about his or her own protection

Not that of society in general. I don't really care what the mainstream "gun lobby" has to say about it.

[Roland99]

43. Well, anyone who feels they must have a CCW to be safe and secure is either:

1) Working in a high-crime area and being wise

2) Being paranoid beyond belief.

[slackmaster]

44. I agree with you

I live in a nice area, and wouldn't dream of carrying a concealed firearm even if I could get a permit. I do, however, occasionally carry one when hiking in the back country.

[Roland99]

47. Rogue Moose are dangerous

:P


j/k ya! :)

[slackmaster]

49. More like border bandits down here

The closest thing we have to a rogue moose around here would be a surly opossum.

[Roland99]

53. .

Armed-adillo?

[Little Wing]

42. Shot himself cleaning his gun

[leftofthedial]

7. but Florida has gun nut wet dream laws

why didn't all the polite, armed citizens take out the shooter and save everyone?

this can't be right!

[Bluebear]

8. Someone was asleep at the switch!

It wasn't supposed to be like this!

[Trehuggr]

33. 2 points for you to consider

first point, the chances that someone with a concealed carry permit was nearby was fairly slim as less than 1% of the residents of Jacksonville Duval county Fl have concealed carry permits (12675 out of 825687 per the state of Florida)
second point, under Florida law you may only use deadly force if you are threatened with deadly force or great bodily harm but are under no duty to retreat per Florida statute it does not make you a free lance policemen. chapter 776 (link www.leg.state.fl.us)

concealed carry gives you options but it is not a cure all for violent crime

[leftofthedial]

45. that's not what the gun nuts said when they were trying to justify the law

and it's not what they say EVERY FRIGGING TIME some nutter with a gun offs a crowd of people

you're not trying a bait and switch are you?

[slackmaster]

50. The people who said it would make everyone safer lied

They didn't have any hard evidence to back up those claims.

But as long as it doesn't make people LESS safe, IMO there is no problem with basing issuance of weapons permits on a set of objective criteria.

[Trehuggr]

57. no bait and switch

here in Florida I have never heard concealed carry advocated as an answer to violent crime. but I have heard and advocated myself that it is an answer to personal safety. that being said it is not for everyone

However I have heard other outside Florida advocate it as an answer for violent crime.but I don't see it that way
as Slackmaster said there is no evidence to support that
and there is evidence to support that it does no harm

[tjwash]

10. Sure. That'll keep Chimpy's failure day off of the news.

[Jacobin]

11. So this would be Number 3 since the VT thing?

NASA, somewhere in Kansas and now Jacksonville?

Have all the hothead/schizos gotten their thrill of 15 minutes of fame yet?

I hope.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. But..but..it's not the guns. Just think of what he could have done if armed with..marshmallows.

[underpants]

16. Jacksonville native speaks on this matter

Two feets they come a creepin
Like a black cat do
And two bodies are lyin naked
Creeper think he got nothin to lose
So he creeps into this house, yeah
And unlocks the door
And while a man reaching for his trousers
Shoots him full of .38 holes

(chorus)
Its a saturday night special
Got a barrel thats blue and cold
Aint no good for nothin
But put a man six feet in a hole

Big jims been drinkin whiskey
And playing poker on a losin night
Pretty soon, big jim starts a thinkin
Somebody been cheatin and lyin
So big jim commences to fightin
I wouldnt tell you no lie
And big jim done grab his pistol
Shot his friend right between the eyes

(chorus)

Hand guns are made for killin
Aint no good for nothin else
And if you like your whiskey
You might even shoot yourself
So why dont we dump em people
To the bottom of the sea
Before some fool come around here
Wanna shoot either you or me

[taterguy]

71. A Southern man don't need a man like that around anyhow

He's suggesting that we give up our guns

Boo
Boo
Boo

[LSK]

20. how many more times must this happen before this Country wakes up?

:grr:

[slackmaster]

41. People are awake LSK, but there is a wide range of opinion on what to do about it

Gun banners say the answer is to ban guns, but they are living in a dream world thinking there is the slightest possibility of selling the idea to the general public.

Law-and-order types say the answer is to keep known violent offenders locked up.

I consider myself in the middle - Start by fixing the known problems with the systems we have in place now.

[LSK]

48. ummm, how about studying how other Countries approach the problem

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x682329

:shrug:

[slackmaster]

51. Been there, read that, got the coffee mug and mouse pad

None of those countries have a set of laws that are anywhere near acceptable to the US public in general.

[RL3AO]

52. How about the anti-guns work on repealling the 2nd ammendment.

Because thats the only hope that got of stopping people from having handguns. They should feel lucky they've gotten the limitations that are currently out there. They have little, most likely no chance of getting any more anti-gun legislation passed.

[LSK]

54. the 2nd amendment refers to militias

[RL3AO]

56. SCOTUS disagrees.

[LSK]

62. the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER agrees

You want to cite a case or a link or a source maybe???????

[Bluebear]

66. Are you troubled and concerned? nt

[jgraz]

68. He can't cite a case because he has none

There are, however, many lower court decisions showing exactly the opposite:

"Since the Second Amendment right 'to keep and bear arms' applies only to the right of the state to maintain a militia, and not to the individual's right to bear arms, there can be no serious claim to any express constitutional right of an individual to possess a firearm." (Stevens v. U.S., United States Court of Appeals, Sixth Circuit, 1971).

"Construing according to its plain meaning, it seems clear that the right to bear arms is inextricably connected to the preservation of a militia . . . We conclude that the right to keep and bear handguns is not guaranteed by the Second Amendment." (Quilici v. Village of Morton Grove, U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh Circuit, 1982)

"Making a firearm without approval may be subject to criminal sanction, as is possession of an unregistered firearm and failure to pay the tax on one, 26 U.S.C. 5861, 5871." (UNITED STATES, PETITIONER v. THOMPSON/CENTER ARMS COMPANY, on writ of certiorari to the United States Court of Appeals for the federal circuit, June 8, 1992)

"We follow our sister circuits in holding that the Second Amendment is a right held by the states and does not protect the possession of a weapon by a private citizen." (Hickman v. City of Los Angeles, United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit, April 5, 1996)

[MOD]

80. Sorry you are wrong!!!

Parker v. District of Columbia

On March 9, in a blockbuster opinion, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit overturned the city’s gun ban — holding that “the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms.” and invalidated some of the D.C. anti-guns laws.

[jgraz]

84. One decision, not SCOTUS. Try to keep up.

[aikoaiko]

83. DC court ruled differently - SCOTUS will have to take this up.

Parker v. DC.



However, the case that SCOTUS did rule on was Miller v US where they said:

"The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. "A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline." And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."

So yes, SCOTUS made a ruling on civilian gun ownership in the context of the militia, but its clear they thought civilians were entitled to own the weapons needed for militia service.

[jmg257]

74. Well - half of it anyway. nt

[Blue_Tires]

73. yes, there are deeper issues at play

psychologically rooted, imo...I continue to wonder why so many Americans and humans altogether instantly think physical violence or gunfire is a good solution to a problem that may not have needed it...but i don't pretend to know how to change it...

[k8conant]

23. Non-life-threatening injuries according to CNN (thank goodness)...n/t

[Marie26]

25. It seems like every

nut with a gun is now looking for his fifteen minutes of fame. That's been, what, 3 this week? And obviously, Florida's lax gun laws are not lax enough - an armed neighborhood could have stopped this! :sarcasm:

[devilgrrl]

26. Dang. If only a few people were armed and ready - this would have never happened!!!!

[joshcryer]

65. I know! WTF, Florida has conceil carry, everyone is armed there.

Why didn't anyone stop this from happening?

Oh right.

[RL3AO]

67. 1% of the population isnt quite everyone.

[joshcryer]

76. 1.2 million in FL. Surely hundreds of them were in Jacksonville.

[slackmaster]

78. Maybe all the CCW holders are normal people

Who have a job, or a family, or classes to attend, or a decent home, or something else better to do than be out driving around looking for trouble on a Tuesday afternoon in a bad neighborhood waiting for gang-bangers and crack heads to go shooting at crack heads and gang bangers.

[joshcryer]

86. You'd think in a bad neighborhood the percentage of carriers would be even higher.

I think there was ample opportunity for a carrier to have "stopped" this.

[slackmaster]

87. People in bad neighborhoods are too poor to afford a decent weapon and the permit costs

The application fee for a concealed weapons permit in Florida is $117. Proof of training is also required. Unless you happen to have a DD-214 from military service, you can expect to pay between $150-$200 for a typical hunter safety course or equivalent (that is the MINIMUM training).

A reliable handgun capable of hitting a person at any appreciable range is going to run more than $500.

All that, plus ammunition and range time for practice to become really proficient is much more than a typical resident of a shitty 'hood is going to be able to afford.

I think there was ample opportunity for a carrier to have "stopped" this.

Have you ever tried to shoot a moving target with a handgun, joshcryer? It's not easy, and the risk of missing your target and hitting an innocent bystander or damaging property is far greater than for a stationary target.

I think your claim of "ample opportunity" is quite unreasonable given what we know about the situation.

[slackmaster]

27. Whoopsie! No fatalities, so CNN pulled the banner from its home page

Probably just another gang-related shootemup like happens every day in most major US cities, nothing to see here.

Move along, move along.

[Fovea]

28. Let's call it what it is

terrorism here and now.

[slackmaster]

31. Naw, probably just a love heptangle or octangle gone bad

Or a minor misunderstanding over a narcotics transaction.

[SammyWinstonJack]

35. Yeah more guns! Less gun laws! That's the ticket!

:sarcasm:

[johnnie]

37. They say the shooter is still on the loose

They should put Jacksonville on a lockdown.

[slackmaster]

38. He's either a very good shot or a very bad shot

Or maybe he has a low-power weapon like a .25 semiauto.

It would be pretty hard to wound that many people without killing at least one or two.

[johnnie]

40. Yeah, I was surprised

Glad no one got killed (so far).

[Initech]

46. God damn it, how many times is this going to happen before the NRA fucking gets it?

:argh:

[jgraz]

55. Dude, the NRA knows EXACTLY what they're doing

They're the lobbying arm of the gun industry. At this point, they've gotta be LOVING all these shootings since they've got their talking points ready to go.

1. More death =>


2. More fear =>


3. More people buying guns =>

Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Initech]

58. Buy a gun to save yourself from armed lunatics. Yup, that'll work!

:eyes:

[jgraz]

60. by becoming one of them

:woohoo:

[AZBlue]

61. why is it funny that people are being shot?

[Bluebear]

63. Who's laughing?

[AZBlue]

75. Sorry, I must have misunderstood the post.

I thought you were being sarcastic and making fun of it. My apologies.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. Because it illustrates the value of not being seen?

But serious, what are you talking about?

[Bluebear]

70. I have no idea what that was all about!

:crazy:

[candice]

69. Free muskets for all militia --it's our Constitutional right!

[jgraz]

72. So we'll only have mass shootings of people wearing red and marching in a straight line

[slackmaster]

82. I'm struggling to find anything wrong with that idea

If people are dumb enough to wear red and march in a straight line, they deserve whatever comes to them as a result.