NO one is buying forced to buy insurance

[yodoobo]

I'm so tired of this meme.

Not even corporations are being forced to buy.

There IS NO constitutional issue here.


However.

If you refuse to buy and contribute to the funding pool so that EVERYONE can enjoy their civil right of healthcare, its only fair that you pay some extra taxes so that we can clean up after you.

[The Straight Story]

1. You can opt out for religious reasons (nt)

[ixion]

2. and so it was that I defined a Religion of One

and opted out. :)

[rox63]

3. I was wondering how they'd handle the Christian Scientists n/t

[MercutioATC]

4. Watch the ranks of Jehovah's Witnesses swell.

[laughingliberal]

82. I truly prefer the Christian Scientists. nt

[yodoobo]

5. Do you still have to pay the fine/tax?

If you opt out for religious reasons?

[berni_mccoy]

30. No.

[no limit]

55. So another thing to get pissed off about, fucking great

If I cant afford it I still have to figure out a way to get the money or pay a fine. Unless I happen to worship some magical man in the sky.

I guess equal protection under the law is a myth.

[Silent3]

65. Oddly enough, I couldn't opt out of paying taxes for the Iraq war.

Freedom of religion is one thing, bending over backwards to accommodate religion and give it special privileges is another.

[grahamhgreen]

97. Bill excerpt

‘‘(2) RELIGIOUS EXEMPTIONS.—
17
‘‘(A) RELIGIOUS CONSCIENCE EXEMP-
18
TION.—Such term shall not include any indi-
19
vidual for any month if such individual has in
20
effect an exemption under section 1311(d)(4)(H)
21
of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care
22
Act which certifies that such individual is a
23
member of a recognized religious sect or division
24
thereof described in section 1402(g)(1) and an
2524

327
HR 3590 EAS/PP
adherent of established tenets or teachings of such
1
sect or division as described in such section.
2
‘‘(B) HEALTHCARESHARINGMINISTRY.—
3
‘‘(i) IN GENERAL.—Such term shall
4
not include any individual for any month
5
if such individual is a member of a health
6
care sharing ministry for the month.
7
‘‘(ii) HEALTH CARE SHARING MIN-
8
ISTRY.—The term ‘health care sharing min-
9
istry’ means an organization—
10
‘‘(I) which is described in section
11
501(c)(3) and is exempt from taxation
12
under section 501(a),
13
‘‘(II) members of which share a
14
common set of ethical or religious be-
15
liefs and share medical expenses among
16
members in accordance with those be-
17
liefs and without regard to the State in
18
which a member resides or is em-
19
ployed,
20
‘‘(III) members of which retain
21
membership even after they develop a
22
medical condition,
23
‘‘(IV) which (or a predecessor of
24
which) has been in existence at all
25
328
times since December 31, 1999, and
1
medical expenses of its members have
2
been shared continuously and without
3
interruption since at least December
4
31, 1999, and
5
‘‘(V) which conducts an annual
6
audit which is performed by an inde-
7
pendent certified public accounting
8
firm in accordance with generally ac-
9
cepted accounting principles and
10
which is made available to the public
11
upon request.
12

[kestrel91316]

6. Exactly. Religious exemption. Poverty exemption. And youth exemption, IIRC.

[Donnachaidh]

7. Now THAT is some SERIOUS spin.

Bravo!!! :rofl: :rofl:

"However, if you -refuse- to buy..."

Karl Rove would be impressed with that spin...

[no limit]

8. So you aren't forced, you are penalized; wow much better

especially when you live on $10 an hour and are single young adult. Now you can pay $100-$200 you don't have or get 3% of your income taken away. Because as we know if anyone needs to be punished more in this country is young middle class americans.

[emulatorloo]

9. If you truly can't afford insurance, the govt will help you get insurance

[Donnachaidh]

10. not if you make too much money

And many people today have no EXTRA to purchase a garbage product. Which this is.

[emulatorloo]

16. If you "make too much money" then you can afford to buy insurance

Why should the rest of us have to pay for your emergency room visits?

[Donnachaidh]

23. you haven't paid much attention to the economy, have you?

There are people out there struggling to pay mortgages, and pay other bills. Even with a good salary, many of these people aren't buying FOOD and other things they can slide on.

So they are expected to buy INSURANCE rather than pay their mortgage?

Congratulations on your selfish *Fuck you I've got mine* American mentality. Who cares if that family may have to live in their car in order to buy insurance.

[leftstreet]

43. +1

[yodoobo]

50. this bill is not about *THIS* economy

This is a bill that will define our lives for centuries to come.

This economy will be history LONG before most of the provisions of the bill come into effect.

People said they couldn't afford FICA too.
People said they couldn't afford Federal Taxes.
People said they couldn't afford sale taxes
People said they couldn't afford state taxes.

and most of them were all right at that time.

But then people adjust their priorities and the economy adjusts.

[Donnachaidh]

54. You know -- REALITY starts with TODAY.

The sure sign of delusion is refusing to acknowledge what is happening NOW.

Keyboard Kommandos can wax eloquent all they want in their basement apartments, but if the general populace is bankrupted by a phony bill -- it's NOT going to last for *the ages*

Have another glass of koolaid. :eyes:

[yodoobo]

57. Do you really think this going to be repealed?

seriously now.

[Uncle Joe]

83. FICA, Federal, sales and state taxes are public, this bill is to fund a private, for profit,

illogical, dysfunctional, redundant, immoral industry; which not only doesn't contribute to health care, but damages that noble endeavor.

This bill institutionalizes a major dysfunction and perpetual loop of cash flowing back to the Congress in the form of lobbying money and the corporate media in the form of commercial/advertising money.

This bill doesn't promote the "general welfare" as specified twice in the Constitution but instead a particular corporate based welfare.

[Green_Lantern]

66. well without insurance what'll they do if they ortheir child get

Sick? The family will end up living in their car even without the mandate.

At least this bill expands Medicaid, subsidies, and at risk pools to help these people.

I'm not sure how anyone can live without insurance sans public funded system.

[no limit]

13. Absolutely not true, a 25 year old adult making $10 an hour will have to come up with $100 a month

an adult of the same age making $15 an hour will get no help and will have to pay even more.

I am talking about single adults here with no kids.

[4lbs]

29. Or you can pay the $750 annual tax/fee by not buying insurance.

That comes out to $62.50 per month, and you get on MediCaid. That's $31.25 per bi-weekly paycheck.

MediCaid will have reimbursement rates the same as MediCare, meaning any doctor or clinic that takes MediCare will take MediCaid.

The main reason many clinics and hospitals are/were wary of MediCaid was because of the much lower reimbursement rates. This HCR bill fixes that and brings those rates at least up to MediCare level.

[no limit]

33. You cant get on medicaid? Where did you get that from? And you think $62.50 is pocket change?

[4lbs]

40. If people can't afford even $750 annually in taxes, then the public option and single-payer won't

help them either.

$750 annually for a person making $10/hour is about 4 or 5 percent their annual gross salary.

A public option and/or single-payer would still be paid through taxes, namely income taxes or other general taxes that apply to EVERYONE, just like it is in Canada, England, and France.

That tax rate is anywhere from 5% to 10% depending on the country and salary. That tax is in lieu of monthly premiums.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. What kind of a tax return would that person get?

Some of my low income friends and family members are getting some pretty good tax returns.

[no limit]

45. The point with doing it with taxes is the tax burden can be shifted to people that are well off

whats happening here is the burden is being shifted to people that barely scrape by.

$60 a month for someone living pay check to pay check isn't insignificant especially when you get nothing in return.

[Unvanguard]

87. And both of them can now be covered on their parents' insurance. n/t

[Cal Carpenter]

18. "...truly can't afford..."

Others have already given examples, but I implore people to look into what is meant by 'affordable' - this whole bill relies on that word and the truth of the matter is, the people defining 'affordability' have no fucking clue what it means to low-income people.

[Riftaxe]

71. insurance that you cannot afford to use

is pretty useless, no?

[terrell9584]

79. I ran my income through a calculator

And the only version which I qualified for even a meager subsidy was the House version. They still expect me to pay the equivalent of a car payment or the cost of a semester's worth of classes part time for it.


I'm sorry. I still can't afford it. I can't afford the fine either but I'm stuck paying it.

[Mojambo]

11. That's me.

And frankly I wouldn't even be opposed to a 100 bucks less in my paycheck, although it would be a massive hardship and pretty much keep me from ever getting ahead.

But I goddamn well don't want it going to the profiteering, scum of the earth health insurance cartel who's NUMBER ONE PRIORITY IS PREVENTING ME FROM GETTING CARE.

[Cleobulus]

21. I wouldn't mind paying the extra 100 bucks either if I was covered with a plan...

with let's say NO deductible, and a small fucking copay(20 bucks or so), and not a shit plan from a private insurance company that requires me, on top of paying a premium, to shell out thousands of dollars for medical care.

[paulsby]

28. you aren't forced to obey the laws against speeding either

you are merely fined if you refuse to obey them

and if you fail to pay the fines, you get a suspended license.

but you still have a CHOICE

seriously, this sophistry is absurd.

if not making a "choice" results in penalization by the govt, one does not have true choice

[no limit]

34. What an absolutely absurd comparison

Im glad you dont give a shit about middle class americans that will be hurt by this.

[paulsby]

36. i'm glad you do not give

a shit about basic reading comprehension and facts.

[no limit]

53. I find it odd that you think comparing a mandate to buy health insurance is the same as speeding

makes you look smart, it really doesn't.

And that's what it boils down to. Stupid arguments that have no ground in reality spewed by cheerleaders of this administration and actual facts from those that oppose this bill because it will hurt a lot of people.

Once you have an answer for how someone that lives pay check to pay check can make $100 appear out of thin air let me know, anything else on your part is intellectually dishonest and actually in your case absolutely absurd. You don't get charged $100 if you don't speed, you pay nothing. Not the case here, and you know this very well, I dont need to explain it to you (or maybe I do).

[Threedifferentones]

78. Paulsby said roughly the same thing as you.

He said that fining people makes it not a choice.

Speeding may not be a good comparison, but he was right, you don't seem to comprehend what he wrote.

I hate this this bill and the insurance monopolies it enriches, too.

[paulsby]

99. thank you

and the analogy i made says NOTHING about whether i like or dislike the bill

it simply describes things as they are, and does not make a judgment call on whether it's a good or a bad thang.

there is a constitutional question as to whether it's constitutional, and thanks to the rule of law that will be adjudicated via the proper legal channels.

[iamthebandfanman]

93. yep

without a single payer option....


this bill is bullshit.



to bad so few can smell the stank coming off of it.



once again the 'our team' versus 'their team' mentality wins... and ultimately we the people win nothing.

yes, it would have looked bad if the bill had been defeated...but that doesnt make the bill a good one.

[tigereye]

12. edited since I obviously can't read

[ScreamingMeemie]

14. What? Skinner has a sockpuppet name yodoobo?

:P

On edit: that's a damned tough username to spell.

[tigereye]

20. hey, whoops! I must have gotten confused, too many of those threads!

:hi: How are ya?

[ScreamingMeemie]

22. I'm okay.

How are you? :hi:

[Fumesucker]

15. Err.. Your OP title could use a spot of editing..

Just a friendly hint. :hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

17. I don't know... some of us are looking into buying insurnace as an

option. Yes, of course, I'm just buying stupid. :D

[yodoobo]

42. ty

typos ftw

[Cleobulus]

19. Buy insurance or pay a fine, hmm, sounds like force to me. n/t

[cbdo2007]

24. ha ha - your subject proves it isn't "forced" - buy or pay - it's a choice.

[Donnachaidh]

26. logic not a good subject for you?

Forced to pay a fine if you DON'T buy -- it's NOT a choice :eyes:

[cbdo2007]

35. My logic is working just fine. You said they were forced to buy insurance...

yet no one is forced to buy insurance and all of your own statements back that up.

[Cleobulus]

51. But if they don't buy it, they pay a fine, and if they don't pay the fine, what will happen?

Isn't this kinda like you don't have to pay the fine for a speeding limit?

[Recovered Repug]

70. That sounds like a "choice" the mafia would give you.

Buy our protection or pay the price.

[LWolf]

25. So instead of everyone paying into a national health system

through their taxes that everyone could access, if you don't enrich private corporations for limiting care, you pay extra taxes.

Great.

[Donnachaidh]

27. BINGO! We have a WINNAH! n/t

[Cronus Protagonist]

38. + ten grand

Wolf nailed it.

[Statistical]

41. Well how would the health insurance companies profit from a "scheme" like that.

[Riftaxe]

72. Very profitable for them

They Get premiums from ~20M new people, many who will not be able to afford to use the insurance.

It's a win for the insurance companies, who get more cash.

It's a win for the politicians who took cash from the same insurance companies, they can proclaim the have passed "Health Care reform", while in reality screwing over the poor.

It's only a loss for people who need health care and cannot afford it, but who cares about them? It's not like they had the extra cash to donate to a campaign anyway.

[Statistical]

81. No I ment the single payer "scheme" there is no money in it for the corporations.

That is why it was doomed from the beginning.

[yodoobo]

46. an NHS would be preferable

And I think that we will get that eventually.

In the meantime however, this is the next best thing.

Will some companies make extra profits? yea they will.

But I'm not going to turn my back on universal healthcare just to spite a few ceo's.

[Cleobulus]

52. But this isn't Universal Health Care, that's a misnomer...

just because more people can get insurance doesn't mean they can suddenly afford to go to the doctor, or get medical treatment. Being covered by insurance means precisely jack shit if you can't afford to get medical care either.

[Capitalocracy]

69. Which don't go toward providing you any care. nt

[LibDemAlways]

80. Thanks for the common sense. Based on the high fives and

congratulatory tone of some threads today, I'm thinking people are so wrapped up in the political "win" they've conveniently forgotten what this bill is all about.

[LWolf]

100. For too many,

politics is nothing more than a team sport, and "winning" is all that counts.

No matter how badly issues and people lose.

[beardown]

31. Nobody is forced to go 30 mph either.

All you have to do is pay the speeding ticket.

It's not the mandate that's the real problem here as many of us support taxes to pay for the common good and taxes are mandatory. It's that the mandatory part forces folks to buy health insurance from companies that helped create the mess in the first place. If the mandate was coupled with an option to buy into medicare/medicaid or a public option that would soothe a lot of anger out here.

It's not nearly the same as mandatory auto insurance because a large part of that is to insure other people against any bad outcomes from your driving.

[Statistical]

32. Buying marijuana is not illegal...

If you CHOOSE to buy some you may be subject to a fine and/or jail time.

Don't worry even if Rupukes get their way and make abortion illegal women will still have a "choice". They can "choose" to be forced to keep the baby or risk fines and jail time.

Liberty rocks!

(Pst. I would have no problem with a mandate that offered public option). The public has control over the public option. The unelected board of Cigna has control over the Cigna option.)

[yodoobo]

47. buying marijuana is a crime.

Not buying insurance isn't.

Your are comparing a civil choice to a criminal action.

Not the same

(never mind that marijuana SHOULD be legal)

[Statistical]

48. I agree it should be however...

couldn't the anti-marijuana crowd argue there is no need to make it legal?

You have the choice right now to buy some. Nobody suffer a fine and/or jail time but you have that choice.

[hansberrym]

84. Growing your own is a crime (Raich) , If Balkin is correct, congress could reverse course

on medical marijuana and require all to cultivate marijuane, or face a fine for NOT doing so.


Would the same work with cotton? Can congress force us to pick cotton or face a fine?

[yodoobo]

86. Or maybe make us walk around in chicken suits

or hop around on one leg.

[Cronus Protagonist]

37. By that argument, I refuse to buy a Lamborghini

The fact that no way do I have enough money to do so appears irrelevant to your argument. It's still a refusal to purchase. I thank God you're not in a position of power over me.

[yodoobo]

49. That strawman is tougher than you think.

If Congress were so inclined, it would be perfectly constitutional to impose extra taxes on non-lamborghini drivers.

Wouldn't be sane. wouldn't be good public policy.

But it would be legal.

[derby378]

39. Your argument proves that healthcare is NOT a civil right

At least, not yet.

[yodoobo]

58. I have no bearing on its status as a civil right

Perhaps I make a poor argument, or perhaps I make a good argument.

My opinion, my views, my existence has no bearing whatsoever on what rights you are entitled to.

Healthcare is a civil right.

This bill is the mechanism to fulfill that right.

[yurbud]

56. i dont mind a mandate so long as i have choice that doesnt enrich sociopathic private isnurance exec

[yodoobo]

60. ?You would deny children healthcare in order to fulfill

your need to spite some CEO?


I don't personally know any CEO's, but I know plenty of kids who deserve healthcare.


I'm not going to deny 32 million people their civil rights in order to piss off a dozen CEOs

Thank God Obama feels the same way.

[mdmc]

62. Most parents would prefer affordable access to medical treatment

for their children.

Most parent, if given a choice, would prefer to have access to affordable medical treatment over access to affordable health insurance.

[yurbud]

63. I didn't say that. I'm saying if I'm required to buy it, I don't want for profit companies to

profit from it.

But good job of trying to twist my words.

[yodoobo]

67. Your words were pretty clear

I accept that now that you think about it, that you really don't want that.

In fact, no reasonable person would feel this way.

Except that many folks who are protesting this bill, don't realize that if they got their way, thats exactly what would happen: people would be denied healthcare just to spite a few CEOs

[yurbud]

88. hardly. Who would have voted against a bill with a public option? Both house & senate

only needed a majority once the senate admitted they could pass it with reconciliation, so the obstacle was corrupt democrats.

I would prefer that the tax money we spend on health care go to health care not corporate profits and executive salaries. To the extent that we allow any money to go to that, we are taking money away from actual health care.

That's not spite, that's an economic reality.

Whether this bill ends up being a good thing depends on where we go from here. If the glaring weaknesses are fixed and for profit scammers are gradually squeezed out, great. If insurance companies use this to recycle tax dollars into political contributions a la Halliburton, defense contractors, and the school privatization scammers, it will actually make things worse.

[mdmc]

59. OP is misleading

The civil right is to for profit health insurance, not affordable medical treatment.

[Greyhound]

61. It's an outright lie, and if the mods are going to let it pass, then we should cal it what it is. nt

[Xenotime]

64. Ah but failure to do so..

will get you under arrest and prosecution for criminal healthcare evasion. But you don't HAVE to get it.

[Capitalocracy]

68. If you were contributing to a "funding pool for healthcare for everyone", FINE!

But you're not, you're being forced to buy from a private insurance company. You are being forced to buy. That's the way it is. You can agree or disagree with it, but you can't spin it another way.

[Unvanguard]

74. But in this case they amount to the same thing.

You cannot both cover high-risk people and let low-risk people opt out. That applies regardless of who runs the insurance pool in question.

[Capitalocracy]

76. But without price control and regulation, that's worthless

What's the point of forcing the low-risk people into the same risk pool if the final result is still going to be a private company raising rates as much as they want? I just don't see the point of trying to mimic a good public healthcare system within a private framework, it's going to turn out badly. There's a reason all other industrialized nations have public healthcare, and that's because a private monopoly on healthcare is inherently unsustainable.

[Unvanguard]

77. Actually, no, not "all other industrialized nations" have public health care.

And health insurance companies cannot just raise rates as much as they like. They do not have absolute market power, and in any case this bill forces them to put more of their revenue into actual health care.

[eridani]

91. Giving money to the government for guanranteed CARE is not the same as

--giving money to mass murderers who are still empowered to deny care on a whim?

[Unvanguard]

73. That's exactly right. You get insurance, or you pay a tax (which is far less than insurance).

If they had wanted to make it actually mandatory, they could have made the penalties a whole lot steeper than they are.

[MissMarple]

75. Exactly, people who think they don't need health coverage are gambling...with our money.

They lose and we lose everyday. No one, not even the health care companies, benefits from that.

[girl gone mad]

94. That's silly. People with insurance are taking a gamble, too.

My neighbor had great insurance, until she was hospitalized and then they decided not to pay her bills. She had to declare bankruptcy. As do many insured people.

Insured people receive 1/3 of all the uncompensated health care in this country. The uninsured pay for 30% of their care out of pocket. Also, uncompensated care for the uninsured amounts to less than 3% of all health care costs. The uninsured get 1/2 as much care as the insured, which actually keeps health care costs down.

In light of all of this you want to make them the scape goats in our system?

I hardly think your statement is reasonable or fair.

[MissMarple]

98. Scapegoat?? It is not fair or reasonable to expect people to contribute to their health coverage?

I thought the bill passed Sunday addressed that. If you can't pay, fine, if you can, pay up. The money has to come from somewhere. This is part of the somewhere. That is my point. Everyone has to be in the pool. Your neighbor got kicked out, she didn't opt out.

[ipaint]

85. What I wouldn't give to be a canadian. nt.

[DCBob]

89. Yes, basically its healthy people subsidizing sick people.

That fine with me.. because someday those healthy people will be sick people.

[eridani]

92. Me too, except not by forcing us to use mass murderers as intermediaries n/t

[frustrated_lefty]

90. Cigna rep# 532110 answering your call

If you are calling to refuse our government mandated service, please press # and our miniature imploding drones will arrive to cancel your service as soon as possible. For an additional fee, we will expedite your extermination...errrr....cancellation.

[coti]

95. Just like the poll tax imposed on minority voters way back when.

They had to pay up or weren't allowed to vote.

[grahamhgreen]

96. Right, cause if you buy the crapsurance in the exchange - IT WILL NEVER PAY OUT ANYWAY!!