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Turning insurance into a mandated private utility (unregulated utility) -- Econ 101.

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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 06:30 AM
Original message
Turning insurance into a mandated private utility (unregulated utility) -- Econ 101.
Interestingly I posted a thread expressing my frustration with the way things are going in these parts, and lack of desire to visit often. Say no more..! I mention this only to note that if any senate HCR buffs wonder "what are you still doing here?": I stated quite clearly that I wasn't posting a goodbye note, although I'm not likely to stick around on a regular basis. Indeed, I was explaining my personal reasons for being here less and less. This past year I have actually tended to avoid posting on DU (and when I don't post on a forum, I tend to avoid reading it), lest I actually stress myself out further. OK, so snark bait anticipated, on to the subject of this thread.

Most people took Econ 101, right? the section on the radical difference between how you figure market price between free market, price controlled market, demand controlled utility (inflexible demand), regulated and unregulated monopoly (oligopoly nearly counts as a monopoly but you won't hear Congress talk about that). This is really basic stuff. Heck, I didn't even get a good grade in Econ 101 but I remember my segment on the difference between a freely purchased good and a government mandated utility quite well.

Put it another way -- you have a company that sells widgets. Suddenly, you:

1. Allow demand to remain flexible below the profitable production price point, driving the cost of the widget up as it becomes a specialty item.

2. Allow supply to remain flexible below most users' price point, causing the market to attain equilibrium at a price point at which 25% of the marketplace is underserved.

3. Allow users to buy whatever type of widget they want, OR NOT, causing an additional marginal percentage of the "choice" (sought-after) market to not purchase the premium widget at the previous market price point. This drives other competitors to offer a range of options at a lower price point. On the other hand, if the entire market is skewed to offer a substandard product because of production conditions (like booking a comfortable airline flight) then this does not solve the problem of 25-50% being underserved, merely ensures they are paying the rate that the poor insurance is actually worth.

4. Allow insurance and financial co's to gobble each other up, and/or create a list of approved suppliers that attain varying standards of service, removing the competing widget makers from the above equation and turning it into a monopoly / oligopoly equation wherein the equilibrium price is much higher and determined solely by:

4.a. The number and degree of collusion between the members of the cartel (cartel economics)

4.b. Demand-side inflexibility (see below)

4.c. The mass production efficiency curve of the monopolistic producer (a monopoly will want to sell more and more of an overpriced product, but can't, even if the customer is forced to buy it, at a certain point it becomes less profitable to oversell it.) Subsidies can remove this "problem" for the insurer, as it has for the sugar and corn industries.

5. You can mandate price controls for the widget. This causes shortages as people try and use as much of it as possible and producers try to produce as little as possible (the bugaboo of command economy) but socially, it works. Of course, this is the point at which you say to yourself, "should insurance be a private utility run by a commission, mandated and essentially run by the gov't but with the profits going to the producers, like gas and electric, or HOA?" Keep in mind that the sole justification usually heard for private utilities is the enormous capital costs (non-customer investment) required to set them up.

6. You can mandate that every person (citizen or otherwise) buy your widget. This removes demand price flexibility from the equation altogether, since it eliminates the power of the consumer to have any role in setting the price, since the price point in any market (capitalist or communist or what-have-you) is determined by the point at which the customer walks away from the table. This turns the product into what is known as a utility. If the utility is mandated but not price controlled, then the good becomes a natural monopoly and the price is determined purely by monopoly economics, i.e. whatever maximizes profit for the supplier.

Keep in mind that a monopoly NATURALLY SEEKS to sell to every single consumer in the marketplace, so claiming that "forcing" insurers to SELL their product to more consumers by forcing said consumers to buy it does nothing to "increase efficiency" except in the sense that additional insurers tap into the newly formed captive marketplace (what do you want to bet there's a list, state by state, of who can participate?) but this is unattainable for an unregulated monopoly. That is where the fines and the subsidies kick in to ensure that this bill operates essentially like Franco-British Mercantilism of the 1700s.

But this does NOT "increase efficiency" except in the Greenspan sense of lowering premiums for the existing upper middle class who have coverage by removing the requirement that they subsidize the indigent through traditional marketplace dynamics, by forcing the indigent to pay for coverage at full market rate (remember, the burden is on the lower middle class and working poor to prove they are eligible to apply for the "exchange" (which is simply a subsidized market-tested lower-cost version of the same private products, like when a company spins off its bargain brand into a separate business unit, a common trick to do in-house in a monopoly economic situation) to avoid a fine, like proving you're eligible to stay on welfare, and they'll be treated the same way as welfare recipients since the POLICY OBJECT of the "exchanges" and non-existent "public option" is to serve AS FEW PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE in order to finance the system with fines and privately insure as many people as possible, who are expected to lower premiums for existing upper-middle-class policies while magically removing the uninsured from the rolls the way they removed all those people on welfare and poor standardized test-takers from the rolls, the purpose of the whole endeavor.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. Keep in mind that when this bill was proposed at the think tank stage, it was market reasons.
The pricing, the availability or lack thereof of the public "option", all were carefully tailored to drive the uninsured into the marketplace in order to balance the books for the insurance companies, allowing the companies themselves to do the rest. The only "problem" with health care itself claimed by the think tank lobbyists (who were II themselves) was that the uninsured were "deadbeats" as Hillary Clinton called them. Edwards and Obama both came around to mandates (years ago, per Washington Monthly / Harpers) after being "assured that most people who do not have insurance can afford it but choose not to, raising costs for everyone else" and cited that as the "problem afflicting the system" -- the problem to be addressed.

You can't claim a bill is a "step in the right direction" if you don't agree with its authors about the problem to be addressed.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Funny, one post substantive points
Edited on Tue Mar-23-10 08:00 AM by Leopolds Ghost
and the snarkers don't come out. No need to alert on me or anything if it can be safely ignored.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Why should anyone bother to respond to you?...
You made clear your disdain for DU in your other 2 locked posts. Now you want to have substantive discussion?

Sid
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Substantive discussion with people you disagree with is not a thing to be strenuously avoided.
My disdain for what has happened to the discourse is certainly not a reflection on the people who run it, nor the people/mods who try desperately to keep the community from strangling each other. I'm not exactly sure about what happened with the second post you mentioned, which I thought was a fairly positive thread, so no comment. I was quite honest about how it stresses me out to read and post these days, because of the twin rock and hard place of having to argue with, say, someone expressing your viewpoint, while constantly apologizing for my beliefs since the forum was not designed as a forum for debate between persons with widely different political beliefs, and as you (or someone) said on that thread "This is not called Liberal Underground". Consider my knuckles rapped.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
22. LOL you got that right, and that says very sad things about the group
Sorry I didn't see this soon enough to REC. You make, as always, sound, well reasoned/well supported argument. That is a big step toward restoring this site as a legitimate and constructive site.

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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. K&R
Hi LG! :hi:
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Hi Odin2005 :-)
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
5. I totally agree with you
The naive trust that some posters here have in

1) The good-heartedness of insurance companies and

2) The incorruptibility of the Democratic Party

(or their lockstep party loyalty that treats politics as a team sport)!
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
6. As reagan did to poor people with his welfare queen lie,
democrats will do to poor people with their deadbeat lie. If you can't cage them in on some bottom of the barrel underfunded plan, well then make them cease to exist as human beings. Mission Accomplished.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Keep in mind Mitt Romney did it first.
I see no reason Dems should assume ownership of this horrible meme about the uninsured being "the source of the problem" in the first place.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Republicans wanted mandated private insurance for years. eom
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. K&R
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
12. So, does anyone have any thoughts on the substantive economics in the OP?
Edited on Wed Mar-24-10 01:07 AM by Leopolds Ghost
John Stewart called it "compulsory universal private health insurance" and indirectly praised Czechoslovakia for moving to such a system and away from a communist single-payer system, claiming it would "kill Reagan" to imagine them doing so.

Apparently "compulsory universal private health care" is the new term they feel comfortable using now that the bill has passed.

Lest, you know, the bill be mistaken as a step towards single payer when in reality such programs count as government privatization on the Reagan model. And Stewart praised Czechoslovakia for doing this!
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BuelahWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I still call it a shit sandwich!
:hi:
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. it's kinda hard for me to follow
first of all, you admit that you did not get a good grade in economics, so you seem to admit that you really don't know what you are talking about. Heck, I taught a college class in microeconomics about nineteen years ago but have no desire to wade through a long post of false assumptions and bad theory. I never really bought standard economic theory's nonsense about monopolies anyway. Where they give non monopoly companies a flat demand curve but a sloping one for a monopoly since the monopoly IS the market. It seems pretty obvious to me that if the monopoly produces one more item that that one item does not affect the market any more than one item produced by a non-monopoly. Are progressives suddenly supposed to be strong believers in classical economics?

Nor do I accept 'efficiency' as some kind of over-riding value. Things like love and freedom don't need to be sacrificed for efficiency.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I was taught that people act in their own best economic interests
in micro and macro economics. And that this was a foundational principal that validated economics.
:rofl:
Yeah right!
I got A's and still am able to see this bill sets precedent and we will be compelled to buy crap from whatever neocon corporation buys office in the near future. Weapons, vaccinations, flag poles, tarp, duct tape...
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Wait, so you state the points in my OP are "false assumptions and bad theory"
Edited on Wed Mar-24-10 02:03 AM by Leopolds Ghost
Where in the OP do I make ANY prescriptive claims about health care? I am simply discussing what I learned in Econ 101.

Most people here, it seems, don't buy into the whole "the market is set by the point at which the buyer or the seller opts out and decides to go do something else" theory.

They seem to think the market is set by what the company deems is good for its customers, because that is what Ameericans living in a corporate-owned (non-free market) economy, where one must pay for shelf space, are used to. Thus, if we make private insurance a mandated purchase for everyone, what's good for Insuricare will be what's good for the country, and vice versa, because everyone will be dependent on their product and unable to opt out.

Me, in high school and college we were required to set up OUR OWN FUCKING MARKETS so people in class would understand HOW prices were marked to market under various conditions (including when the buyer has no choice but to purchase a product.)
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. the poster admitted to not reading the points made in the OP
and assumed it was false assumption and bad theory for no other reason than you claimed to have not gotten particularly good grades in the class.

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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I am just tired of calling Customer Support and told "no one else will give you a better deal"
Edited on Wed Mar-24-10 02:13 AM by Leopolds Ghost
"We don't get many complaints from people like you, I'm sorry, what are you going to do, whatever it is, we don't care. We don't need your business... if you don't like it go somewhere else" knowing full well there is no competition and hence no requirement to satisfy or haggle with the consumer.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. I read the first two and they did not make any sense
"1. Allow demand to remain flexible below the profitable production price point, driving the cost of the widget up as it becomes a specialty item."

What the heck is that supposed to mean? What is a flexible demand? How does this either make the widget more expensive or make it a specialty item. And what does HCR have to do with "allow demand to remain flexible below the profitable production point".

"2. Allow supply to remain flexible below most users' price point, causing the market to attain equilibrium at a price point at which 25% of the marketplace is underserved."

Again, I do not find that comprehendable. This could be my fault. I have certainly forgetten a lot of the useless crap I studied in college, and even a lot of the useless crap I taught in college. Besides that, I taught 8 classes of Macro and only one class of micro. But for me to keep reading to point 12, things need to make sense or be more understandable at the start. It seems a good guess that if the economics instructor is confused that most other readers are as well.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. "Americans living in a corporate owned (non-free market) economy"
Seems to be the crux of the problem for the average person trying to survive in America. And not just on health care.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Are progressive supposed to support monopolies? And what does freedom mean anymore?
Freedom from want = you must purchase the items the government feels everyone is required to have to ensure increased standard of living for everyone?
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. actually I think we are
Does SINGLE payer seem familiar?

I just mentioned freedom as something that seems more important to me. Having read the first part of your last paragraph where you said "It does not 'increase efficiency'" and my first thought was "Why should I give a crap about increasing efficiency?"

Also, under single payer, you are compelled to pay for insurance. The 'insurance' comes from the government and the middle class would be forced to pay taxes to pay for it. The question is whether you would get lower prices and/or a better product from the government. Right now a full time employee where I work gets their insurance for $25 a month for a single person or $284.67 for a couple or $313.19 for a family. My employer pays something like $540 a month to $880 a month. The question is whether an average working person could get single payer for less than $300 a month in taxes. Because people definitely would be compelled to pay taxes.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. I suppose I would hope the taxes to fund a single payer system
would be progressive. And, yes, I think a single payer would provide coverage for less than 300 per month in taxes for those of average income.

I do think single payer increases efficiency. Otherwise I would not expect every other country to have lower costs per capita than the US. If single payer does not increase efficiency, why do we consistently see this?

Your employer got a great deal. My last employer paid $1200 per month per employee. Of course we were a business with a high number of nurses (an older, predominantly female group).
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. those are hopes, though, rather than calculations
Edited on Wed Mar-24-10 10:09 AM by hfojvt
If insurance costs $1,000 a month, then how is single payer gonna cost less than $300 a month? It cannot, unless a bunch of people are paying more than $1,700 a month (or a group of really rich people are paying $10,000 a month).

Actually my employer got a lousy deal, here's a comparison to two others

type *** ME **** TH1 ***** TH2
single - $629.17 - $472.01 - $344.54
couple - $1204.5 - ******* - $739.74
family - $1333.19 - $1073.12 - $1056.10

Where ME is my employer with Thing1 and Thing2. Considering that I am personally paying half of the single rate as a part-timer, that knowledge sorta makes me mad. I would much rather pay half of 472 or 344. Being on the board of Thing2, the board was upset because their rates went up by 21%. From where I sat though, they should be counting their blessings. Even though their rates went up by a lot, they are still well below those two other employers.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Single payer will cost less for the same reason we are told this current plan is supposed to bring
down costs. Everyone in the pool means the risk is spread over a larger group many of whom will not yet be using a lot of the health care services. The difference is, with single payer (public plan, I'm assuming here) there is not a need to spend billions which will be diverted into executive compensation, shareholder dividends, and huge departments of 'customer service' reps whose primary job is to find ways to deny healthcare. Diverting billions into profits does spend a lot of money which doesn't result in delivery of care.

I don't know of any countries with single payer who spends more per capita than we do which would suggest it works more efficiently to save money and deliver more actual care to the people. I believe President Obama is even on record as saying single payer is the only way to cover everyone while controlling costs. Remember, he did not say we couldn't get single payer because it's not better. He said we couldn't do it in this political climate.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
21. Did you have a health program in mind that's free for everyone with
no deductibles?
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. OP did not suggest any such thing was possible, why do you throw strawmen around?
Forced to buy a private sector product which is not adequately regulated will not lower costs. THAT was the point.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. It's an old right wing talking point. Make anyone who advocates for effective social programs into a
welfare queen looking for a handout. I believe that started with Reagan. I sure wish they'd leave Reagan's crap over there in the bat shit crazy Republican party where it belongs.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
27. going for a trifecta?
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Ah yes, well made case meets up with oblique attack
Proof of well made case I reckon
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. you call that an "attack"? LOL, ur funny.
Edited on Wed Mar-24-10 10:34 AM by dionysus
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