Some of the very best teachers are in low-performing schools.

[madfloridian]

Yet Florida is on the threshold of passing a bill that will essentially do away with their job security and base a teacher's pay on how a child takes a test.

All of the pay contracts passed by unions and counties through the years will be done away with, and 50% of a teacher's pay will be based the results of one test, written in secret by a company, graded the same way...with no regulation.

The other 50% will be based on the principal's evaluation yearly.

SO...there seems to be a mindset that the only good teachers are at schools with good and honorable principals and high test scores.

Yet some of the best teachers I worked with through the years were at one of the worst-performing schools in the county. The home life of a child, the environment that surrounds that child, will not be considered. There will be no accountability for the child or the parent....only accountability for the teacher.

One of the state legislators, a Republican, had the idea to look at other factors instead of dumping it all on the teacher. He never pursued the idea, it was just dropped.

From the Orlando Sentinel:

Teacher merit pay and “factors outside of the teacher’s control” (plan to consider “home environment” proposed, withdrawn)

Sen. Thad Altman, R-Melbourne, suggested this morning that the controversial teacher pay proposal be amended to take into account “the effects of the home environment.”

Altman proposed an amendment that would have added into Sen. John Thrasher’s bill a paragraph that said the new pay system had to consider “factors outside of the teacher’s control, such as, but not limited to, natural disasters, socioeconomic factors, age, home environment, etc.”

He worried, he said, that not looking at those factors would be “intrinsically unfair” to teachers. A friend of his, Altman added, is an excellent teacher who moved from a high-flying school to a struggling one, where teaching was harder in part because of outside factors — like poor dental care.

“How do you learn when you’re teeth are rotting out?” Altman asked.

But Altman, after explaining the reasons for his amendment, then withdrew it, saying there would be time to discuss that later on. So there was no further discussion on his idea in the Senate chamber.

The Sun Sentinel discusses the bill further. Rather critical of it.

Senate bill: Tough on teachers, short on reform

No one should mistake the measure linking teacher salaries to student performance on annual tests for a serious effort to reform education. A pointed jab at teacher unions and school districts is more like it. Unfortunately, the goal of improving classroom teaching, and rewarding the many solid educators in Florida, gets lost in the jabbing.

The bill requires school districts to stop using advanced degrees, contract negotiations and seniority to establish pay. Tenured positions would be eliminated, and salaries and job security instead would be based on annual student test scores and performance reviews. If school districts don't comply, they risk losing state funding and could be forced to raise property taxes to make up the difference.

So imagine the hordes of eager teachers rushing to work in a state where annual contracts are the norm, academic qualifications and experience count for little, and any pay raises, not to mention job security, depend on how well students perform on that year's standardized tests. We can't, and it's not exactly the big incentive Florida needs in its ongoing attempts to attract or keep quality teachers.

Yes, just imagine the teachers rushing to Florida with no job security.

The Democratic party and the teachers' unions in Florida are speaking out against the bill.

Teachers union and FDP v. Thrasher on the airwaves

The state’s teachers union and Florida Democratic Party have opened a broadside media attack on Republican lawmakers who are trying to end teacher tenure in favor of a merit-pay system in an effort to beef up school quality without spending more.

“If your child is a student in Florida public schools, brace yourself because Florida politicians are doing real damage,” Andy Ford, president of the Florida Education Association, says in a TV and Internet ad. Ford goes on to criticize recent school cuts and then says, “Now some of our best teachers are at risk of losing their jobs.”

That is because some of our best teachers are at low-performing schools where other factors like home life and poverty level are affecting the learning environment negatively.

Those teachers keep on working in the trenches, and I was one of them before I retired. At least I had the satisfaction that I would not lose my job if the students did not perform as well as those in schools with better over all learning climates.

It appears Florida is ready to take away any job security for teachers like that.

I will be waiting for the hordes of eager teachers to descend on this state for hardscrabble jobs with no security.

[FBaggins]

1. This is almost certainly true... the question is...

...is it demonstrable?

[madfloridian]

2. A good teacher can be recognized

by any intelligent person who wants to find one.

[FBaggins]

4. Sorry... no points awarded.

"You know it when you see it" is not quantifiable...

...more importantly, it isn't objective. The people who would need to "recognize" them (principals) don't have the best track record at doing so. You can draw you own conclusions on what that means re: "intelligent person." :-)

Note that I'm not disagreeing with your premise... just in how/if it can be implemented as a public policy (let alone sold to the electorate). "Trust us, we know what we're talking about" (even if true) isn't selling well in today's market.


Oh... and K+R

[madfloridian]

5. I see your point. I also see public education being destroyed

by the Democratic party as good teachers and intelligent Democrats who should know better stand by silently and let Arne continue his dismantlement.

[FBaggins]

7. Agreed.

I'm not saying that public education couldn't be improved a great deal... but change for the sake of change does not guarantee success.

[LWolf]

9. That's because there is, currently, no viable way to quantify

what makes the "best" teachers. Some of those characteristics can be described, although they are not that easy to measure. Some, though, can't.

We can make a list of characteristics, ranging from qualifications, knowledge, and observed practice, and those can at least be identified as being in place, if not measured accurately.

We cannot quantify the human factor. The ability to make a connection with students, to motivate them, to inspire them to take an active part in their own learning...that's not quantifiable.

We could quantify the use of canned management programs, or # attempts to step outside tradition and bring curriculum to students in new and interesting way, regardless of success, but those aren't human connections.

Why do we need to sell this to the public? Why is today's market so tough? My answer: decades of anti-teacher and anti-public education propaganda concurrent with continuously eroding budgets and continuously increasing authoritarian policies.

The first thing to do might be to put a stop to those factors. At the same time, putting out the message that it is actually learners who do the learning; teachers provide opportunities and support, but the learners are responsible for making the best use of those opportunities.

[FBaggins]

11. That's not true. There's no EASY way...

but it is possible.

It's just that each method raise its own objections.

You could, for instance, test each child twice every year (beginning and end) in every subject after producing valid tests that are actually aligned with the learning objectives for that specific part of the curriculum (not national standardized tests) so "teaching to the test" isn't a problem. Then you would be assessing progress, not knowledge or ability of the student. Teachers might actually fight over the previously under-performing students as fertile ground for improvement.

But there are plenty of valid concerns with this type of approach... not the least of which would be a massive price tag.

Why do we need to sell this to the public?

Are you serious?

Because they pay the bills and it is to them that we are accountable. It doesn't matter whether YOU think that there is no quantifiable measurement of success if THEY don't agree... and it doesn't matter if you're right and they're wrong.

[madfloridian]

13. Public schools can not afford to advertise themselves like charters do.

Like private schools do.

There is a powerful lobby of private business organizing parents and paying for ads for charter and private schools.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, the money is taken from public schools to do this stuff.

[FBaggins]

16. I'm sorry madfloridian... I don't understand how that's responsive.

Advertise? And what does any of this have to do with charters (except to assume that they too should be assessed)

Regardless... I know they can't "afford" what I was saying (that's the most obvious objection so I raised it myself). I was just saying that it was possible.

Moreover... it's the kind of financial commitment that governments should be WILLING to make if they really want to

[madfloridian]

17. I have no idea what your point is other than to argue.

I write too much about it and present my case well enough...I don't need the aggravation of arguing just to argue.

[FBaggins]

18. I think you're reading IN to my post something that isn't there.

I didn't mean to be confrontational... I honestly didn't see what your point was.

I don't disagree with anything you said in your post... I just didn't understand how it was responsive. It read (in tone) as if you were disagreeing with me, but I didn't see where that disagrement was.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

[LWolf]

14. I haven't seen anything, including your suggestions, that

convinces me.

Testing each child twice a year doesn't tell me anything about the teacher. It tells me about the child, and we already do that in some subjects. Until you can control for every variable not under teachers' control, using student test scores is not a valid measure of teacher "goodness."

And yes, I am serious, though my question was rhetorical. I am accountable to the families I teach. The vast majority have been satisfied with their children's experiences with me. We have often been dissatisfied together with the system itself. I'm also accountable to the district I work for, and to the state that licenses me.

Who, exactly, is "paying the bills?" Politicians? Taxpayers who've never met me, visited my classroom, or talked to my families? Should anyone be making broad-brush pronouncements that include my practice if they haven't done so? Accountability is fine, as long as it's valid, reliable, and appropriate. There are local procedures in place to do just that.

[FBaggins]

20. Very well... We don't have to agree

...Since we both know that the necessary funds wouldn't be provided anyway.

But you're incorrect in your post. By testing before and after the attempted learning transfer, you remove most other concens from the equation. It's the same child and the same parents... And the same school and socio-economic conditions (etc.). The largest uncontrolled factor is the non-straightline development of the student (and that should balance out in a reasonable statistical universe).

No... It would reasonably asses teacher performance if it were
possible in the current environment but it would shift the
unknown from the teacher to the psychometricians who would be responsible for developing scores of valid tests... And there are precious few of them who do the job at the necessary level (and no good way to asses THEIR performance).

[LWolf]

23. That's almost correct, and I can see your point.

What that straight line doesn't take into account are these factors:

1. We know that kindergarten is not an equal starting line; some come with more neural connections, and therefore more readiness, than others based on the home environment. While we CAN, and DO, begin to grow those neural connections when they get to us, they don't catch up to their more fortunate peers, because those peers aren't standing still, and the differentiating home factors are still in place. They are also moving forward, leaving those who didn't get the benefit of appropriate stimulation birth to age 4 always behind those who did. They WILL grow. They may not make as much progress as more advantaged children, though.

2. If you want to see a teacher's test scores improve, you load their class full of students who don't suffer from any deficits. Conversely, if you want to set up a teacher to fail, you load them up with those deficits. A poor teacher will look good in comparison to a great teacher in that situation. It's a political nightmare. Admins can use class rosters as weapons against teachers who don't "toe the line" when bad policy comes down that line.

3. The plan is to measure us by our class test scores, not by the scores of individuals in our class. That's why #2 is critical.

4. That straight line doesn't take into account those students who willfully refuse to perform. I had a class of 8th graders last year who did just that. They were sick of the 3-times-a-year testing, no matter how well they did the first time, so that we could show "growth." So they did pretty well on the first round; most "met" the required benchmarks. The 2nd and 3rd rounds, they filled in answers randomly, and defiantly told me, and the principal, that we couldn't "make" them try to pass. It was a group uprising, lol. The bottom line is that test had nothing to do with what they actually learned. Those who wanted to learn, did, whether the test scores showed it or not.

5. And "want to learn" is a factor that is not included. There are a vast number of reasons why students "check out" academically, and most of them are not under the control of the system. I'd love to reform the system so that we could better address as many of those reasons as possible, but that, like most reforms desired by actual educators, isn't going to happen. It's pricey and it puts responsibility on students to do their part, undermining the "hold teachers accountable for everybody" mantra.

There are other problems with that kind of measurement; the bottom line is that there ARE no ways to make it valid, and that it's wrong-headed to try to do so.

Accountability is fine; I'm accountable for my own performance, not for the performance of others. I'd rather see all the attention, and resources, put towards actually improving the system, providing the resources and support to meet the needs of every student, than towards psychometricians developing more tests to tell us what we already know.

Because we do. We do know which students are thriving, which are making progress, barely getting by, or failing utterly. We know that without any standardized tests.

[wickerwoman]

21. Exactly. Thank you!

Who else gets measured by someone else's performance? The only ones I can think of are managers of larger companies.

Pay me a six figure salary, give me a "corporate retreat" in Vale three weeks a year, a company car, a company computer and the power to fire poor performers and then you can evaluate my competence based on someone else's work.

Do you want to know what's really killing public education in America? It's taking all the control away from teachers and then acting like they're responsible for all of our problems.

They don't get to write the curriculum (much of which is dull, censored and pitched to the lowest common denominator).

They're not responsible for the failure of kids that are hungry or abused or who changed schools nine times in the last three years.

Nor are they responsible for the failure of kids who have no respect for them, who think cheating is fine, who spend hours glued to their Play Stations and who live on hot pockets and mountain dew.

[LWolf]

22. You nailed that one. nt

[ljm2002]

25. I have to jump in here...

...to say that the "if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist" position is unreasonable. It is certainly pervasive at this time, and is used in many different contexts. It has a comforting feel to it, as though we can measure anything, and in so doing, we can control it.

But reality intrudes. Yes, we can and should measure. But the obsessive compulsion that says everything can and should be reduced to numbers, as if by collecting the numbers, we can encompass Truth, is a reductionist position.

Can you measure the Mona Lisa? Well, sure you can. But you will not capture its essence by doing so. Same with a Stradivarius violin, and with many other things. Then there is the question of the measures that are chosen, which often overlook other aspects and relationships within the data.

All I'm trying to say is, there are different aspects of the Truth. I would say that a qualitative analysis is every bit as important as a quantitative one.

[leftstreet]

3. K&R

[aikoaiko]

6. Its too bad they didn't make principal and superintendent pay contingent of student scoress too

[jody]

8. The unanswered question always -- "is a student learning to her/his potential?" It's not fair to

compare one teacher's performance when her/his students learn at 90% potential and only 50% pass a test against another teacher with students that learn at 60% potential and 90% pass that same test. Students with limited potential versus students with high potential.

It's not politically correct to discuss that issue and I know of no acceptable way of measuring a student's potential but the problem exists in spite of those shortcomings.

I've looked at test scores in my state and observed that per student spending and race had essentially no affect on test scores however per cent free lunches, a surrogate measure of poverty, explained over 60% of the variation among schools.

That's consistent with other reports on the same topic.

[YvonneCa]

30. Thank you. n/t

[Odin2005]

10. I have a friend who taught in a "Bad School" in Ocala, Florida for 3 years.

She is the type of person that makes an EXCELLENT teacher. Why did she leave? Because the principal constantly harassed and humiliated her (often in front of her students) because she refused his sexual advances. She also said that the parents were usually completely apathetic about how their kids were doing. IMO this is why schools are full of bad teachers, the people that are good teachers tend to not suck up to moron administrators and get pushed out.

[madfloridian]

15. They often send "bad" principals to low-performing schools.

I don't know why. We had one whom they had tried to get rid of, but she threatened a lawsuit against the county.

They sent her to our school after 3 others had failed under the leadership.

[FBaggins]

19. One potential benefit of that.

The new Bush/Obama/Duncan plan automatically fires the principal in all of the four options for remediation.

Assuming, of course, that the "low-performing" schools are scoring poorly on their tests (which is not always the case depending on whose definition of "low performing" we're using today).

[MurrayDelph]

24. I quit teaching almost 30 years ago.

I taught in Watts. I was a last-minute hire when they discovered they were going to have enough third-graders for another class.

So, I got the kids the other teachers didn't want.

In the one year, my kids went from reading two years behind age level to only one year behind.

But according to the principal, I was a bad teacher.

Of course, during that time I had a kid at the beginning of the year, who freaked out and started hitting everyone, including me.
I was told by the principal that I should learn to expect that "if I was going to keep teaching in the ghet-to."
Six months later, the kid struck the principal and was immediately put in the special needs class.

Over the next two years, before I couldn't take any more shit, I saw examples of second- and third-graders who knew more about education than this guy.

A couple of years after I left, I was talking to one of my former colleagues, who informed me that the principal got moved to a bigger school (fifty teachers), and accidentally mentioned in front of his new faculty his belief that only black teachers could teach black kids (A double-standard we all knew of, but couldn't prove). Considering about half of his new new faculty was non-black, it did not make for smooth transition.

The one good thing that came from this experience (before I went into industrial education, which paid much better), was coming with the third line to a well-known aphorism:

Those who can't teach, try to tell teachers their job.

[tonysam]

28. +10,000

The biggest jerks and assholes are public school administrators, including principals.

None of the many people I had as supervisors in the private sector or even the government or non-profit sectors were as bad as the last two principals I had as bosses.

[Catshrink]

29. Please don't say this:

"...schools are full of bad teachers." I'm sure most schools will have a few teachers who shouldn't be teaching, but surely schools are not "full" of bad teachers.

:spank:

[tdog8]

33. Where do you live...

...that you believe our schools are full of 'bad teachers'?

I have met teachers I don't like personally. But, with VERY few exceptions, all those I have met are working to do what's best for the children enrolled in their class/school.

They are teachers who are sometimes working with apathetic parents as you mentioned. Although sometimes they have very pushy parents, sometimes the parents want the best for their children but don't know how to help them.

Teachers sometimes have terrible administrators. There is very little a teacher can do if she/he is in a school with a poor administrator except leave. Districts don't like to admit a mistake in hiring a person unfit for an admin position.

And sometimes teachers leave the 'failing' schools. But very often, wonderful teachers stay and work to do what they can with the children and for the families in those schools. There are many reasons for a child doing poorly on a test given once a year. Many of those reasons are out of the control of the teachers. But they stay and keep trying even though people are calling them 'bad teachers' at 'failing schools'.

It's demoralizing and unfair to make judgments like that for an entire profession.

[emsimon33]

12. I agree--and they also have the most challenges

[madfloridian]

31. Agree...some of the most hard-working devoted teachers are in

schools that can't meet standards set in gold

[cachukis]

26. As you know FCAT is over for the year. I have Adv Frosh

low to mediocre Sophs and retake Jrs and Srs. It is not for many to inspire students whose year is done. Yesterday, I challenged a Soph about preparing to graduate and get his grades up. His response "I can get into IMPACT later when I have to get serious." Now, he had to have fun.

I went downstairs to talk to that teacher and she told me that they had to have at least a 1.6 GPA and 13 credits to get into IMPACT. There are only 25 slots available. I asked her how pervasive was the mentality that IMPACT was another of those last minute solutions and she told me that 8th graders were aware of this.

How, I ask, does one whose job it is to raise reading comprehension, rely on this and the multitude of procrastinators for my evaluation? Even though I'm in Hillsborough, and excluded by Gates I feel "Thrashed."

Furthermore, the undercurrents about retirement, and the wholesale movement of older teachers will really put stress on the system and "prove" that the "publics" are a bad deal.

Watch out Floridians.

[DonCoquixote]

27. MadFlo let's be honest about Florida

The powers that be in this state NEVER had an interest in a well-educated populace. Back when it was just the richer farmers and train barons, they just wanted people who could pick the oranges. When the Northern transplants moved in, many, sadly adapted the attitude of "I already paid for that back home!" You have a state that is run like a sort of pirate's den, where the people that think the rest of Dixie is too cosmopolitan team up with people that have no use for the state other than a place to put their "retirement home." It's no wonder why we lag behind the rest of the South, much less the country.

[LWolf]

32. On a side note:

Someone gave my class a subscription to the CSMonitor this year. We use it some, but I have to read it first and pull just those things I think pass muster; the "Christian Science" in the title is enough to make my students and their families bristle. So I'm going through a stack while I'm on spring break to pull useful articles that I can take back to class. My stack includes some samples they sent me when they asked me if I wanted them; I was looking today at one dated August 23, 2009.

The cover story is "Teaching With Less: Leading-edge schools push budget power down the chain, pay star teachers well, and wring high grades from scant resources." I could have been written by Duncan himself (although it wasn't, lol.)

So I flip to the cover story, and find that it's all about...Miami-Dade Public Schools and Alberto Carvalho.

Here it is: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2009/0825/p13s01-legn.html