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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 03:30 PM
Original message
The One-Two Punch
Home with a bum knee, I made the mistake of turning on the radio. Clear Channel's KFI came blaring out, and the new host, a Canadian guy who just moved to LA, was talking about how amazed people were that there were mandates in the new health insurance law.

Mandates? You mean they didn't know?

The talk host went on to explain that the IRS would have to hire over 16,000 new employees to keep track of the insurance mandate, and bemoaned that the IRS would now have more intrusion into American lives.

Really? You didn't notice that the IRS was going to be in charge of this? (Yeah, that IRS, the one that had a plane crash into one of their buildings in Texas because they hounded a guy beyond endurance.)

Then the host talks about how alarmed his friends were that there was a fine for not buying insurance, that there could perhaps be imprisonment.

Uh, dude? Yeah, there was a big argument in the Senate over the fine. Where were you?

Then the host has the gall to say how he was the first person to bring up this issue of the mandates, the fines, the IRS--three days ago.

Three days ago?

The mandate has been in play since the beginning of this process. The mandate was sealed in the Senate bill and that was back in the fall. Three days ago? Where the hell have you been?

So how did talk radio, the alleged front line of attack against the health insurance bill, get it so wrong?

From the beginning, the health insurance bill has been marked by rhetoric, but by all the wrong rhetoric. The Democrats in Congress talked about the bill as if it were another social program, another Medicare, even though it was clear that there was little public option in the Congressional bill and none in the Senate bill. The GOP, on the other hand, talked about the bill as if it were the arrival of a Marxist state, complete with government controlled markets and Stalinesque purges for the right wing and their guns. The Democratic party faithful talked about "universal coverage" while the teapartiers drew Hitler mustaches on Obama posters. The funny thing is that both sides gave Americans the exact same impression: that the health insurance bill was a social/entitlement program like Medicare.

Remember when Senator Mary Landrieu stood up and told the Senate that people didn't really know what was in the health care bill? She was actually right about that, regardless of her reasons for making that statement. People didn't know what was in the bill, but they seem to be just finding out. Now people know that they face a fine and possible imprisonment if they don't buy a product from a private company. They are also beginning to learn that in order to enforce fines and imprisonment, the IRS now needs everyone's information on the status of their insurance policies, who provides them and what they provide for. This is why they need the extra 16,000 employees.

But whose fault is it that people didn't know what was in the bill?

Well, it's up to the media--mainstream and otherwise--to help people understand what the bill is. Those of us who read progressive blogs, like Firedoglake.com, were on top of all the information about the mandate. But people who relied on the mainstream media, and mainstream Democratic sites got the idea that the bill was a social program. And the rabid right wing media did no better, screaming about birth certificates and socialism.


Of course, since both sides were talking in quasi-socialist terms, the fact that the bill is a transfer of wealth from the middle and working classes to the wealthy got completely lost in the shuffle. The mandate creates that transfer of wealth.

Maybe that's why no one wanted to talk about the mandate.

Until now, like our LA talk show host with the Canadian accent.

But now it's too late. Some of the state lawsuits against this new law will bring up the mandate issue. It will be important to follow these arguments, because if the government can make me buy insurance on the private market, it can make me anything else. But these suits will fail to destroy this law. The American people have been sold down the river and they were misinformed by both "sides" of the debate. If more people knew the government was going to force them, under penalty of fine or imprisonment, to buy health insurance from the companies that were already screwing them over, there would have been less public support for this bill than there was. The only mandate they have control over now is the one at the ballot box.

And we all know how well that works.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. .
.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. k/r
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. Thanks:)
.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. "The funny thing is that both sides gave Americans the exact same impression:
that the health insurance bill was a social/entitlement program like Medicare."

That's exactly right. And the "left" was never given a voice to talk about the real bill and what we needed to do to make it better.

Just heard Dean talking with Dylan Ratigan (who, bless him, is talking about the rigging of the bill in favor of the health care industries) and they were discussing what needs to be fixed. Dean enumerated the fixes needed and said he thought they would get done at some point but would not be addressed before the election and probably not before the Presidential election. Sigh.

Rec for the post.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Thanks for the recs
And *sigh* for everything else. :(
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. .
.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. Several Problems, Ma'am, With What This Cretin Spewed Over His Mic....
The seventeen thousand I.R.S. employees are a fiction concocted by Republican staffers on the Senate finance committee; they have no existence in reality.

The law specifically states that neither criminal penalties nor confiscations can be employed in collecting the tax levied on persons without health insurance.

The requirement people buy health insurance, if they do not already have it, has been widely discussed and reported; anyone who disclaims prior knowledge of it now is either lying, or paid no attention whatever over the last year or so.

The lawsuits being filed by hard right types against the bill are frivolous, and will go nowhere. Precedent on the Commerce clause leaves little room for a ruling against this provision of the bill.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. You're wrong about a couple of things
1. There will be more hiring to keep track of this information. There's no way around that. I promise I'll show you the first link on http://usajobs.gov/.

2. People who don't know about the mandate are not lying, as you imply. Most people really don't get it. They have been misinformed for the most part. I guarantee you that we'll see more of this shock in the coming days, but it will really hit the fan when the mandate kicks in and people start getting fines and notices of fines.

3. The lawsuits being filed by the GOP and states' rights types are political theater. That is why they're not going anywhere. Those suits are about the election in November. However, the arguments on the mandates WILL be interesting to follow and they can create some bad precedent, so get out your popcorn.

Now finally, on this statement:

"The law specifically states that neither criminal penalties nor confiscations can be employed in collecting the tax levied on persons without health insurance."

a. Interesting that the fine is a "tax levied": it really is a tax, you know, and a regressive one.
b. I have the bill in front of me and a person CAN be imprisoned by this bill for providing a false statement to the IRS:

(b) CRIMINAL PENALTIES.—Section 501 of the Em-ployee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (29 U.S.C. 14
1131) is amended— 15
(1) by inserting ‘‘(a)’’ before ‘‘Any person’’; and 16
(2) by adding at the end the following: 17
‘‘(b) Any person that violates section 519 shall upon 18
conviction be imprisoned not more than 10 years or fined 19
under title 18, United States Code, or both.’’. 20


They cannot be imprisoned (yet) for failure to pay their penalty IN A TIMELY FASHION

‘(1) INGENERAL.—The penalty provided by this section shall be paid upon notice and demand by the 5
Secretary, and except as provided in paragraph (2), 6
shall be assessed and collected in the same manner as 7
an assessable penalty under subchapter B of chapter 8
68. 9
‘‘(2) SPECIAL RULES.—Notwithstanding any 10
other provision of law— 11
‘‘(A) WAIVEROFCRIMINALPENALTIES.—In 12
the case of any failure by a taxpayer to timely 13
pay any penalty imposed by this section, such 14
taxpayer shall not be subject to any criminal 15
prosecution or penalty with respect to such fail-16
ure. 17


But what about if you're not "timely"? I am looking for the definition in the bill and it's not there.

So you COULD be imprisoned if you don't pay the fine as soon as the IRS thinks you should.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. You're a gem, Nikki.
:hug:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. All you got to do is read the bill.
With a bum leg since Saturday, I've had a lot of time on my hands.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. I imagine when the Republicans come back to power with their usual strong on crime meme, the main
adjustment, they will focus on will be to stiffen any fine penalties.

The criminalization of American Life will take another step down the slope.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I'd bet serious money on that.
We're creating a whole new class of criminals here: the uninsured. The prisons will get some cheap labor for prison industries though.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. They missed it the same way they missed the
massive hiring that was done for the ARRA program. Which is why when someone said HCR was going to result in administration simplification last night I just about fell off my chair laughing. That seems to have become standard operation procedure. First you say you're going to reduce paperwork and red tape. Then you say because there is fraud you have to hire people to check computerized paperwork, which leads to inventing more forms so that you can be thorough about checking up, which leads to more employees to handle all the new computerized paperwork.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. More work will cost less money?
I can see why you were laughing.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. Any nurse who has worked for a home health agency seeing Medicare patients since the 90's knows all
about this one. The explosion of paperwork was obscene. Of course whenever Medicare starts on 'routing out waste, fraud, and abuse they go after home health first, a system which actually saves money long term. And why not the hospitals who get caught engaging in fraud all the time? Aha! They have endless money to lobby Congress.

Meanwhile, the home health agency struggling to keep its doors open has nurses sitting up til midnight after seeing all their patients trying to get all the paperwork done and remember not to leave an I undotted or T uncrossed lest they be accused of 'fraud.' Drove me out of the field. My husband got tired of looking at the back of my head.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. K&R
Hope your knee gets better .. :hug:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Thanks:)
:hug:
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. I think the craziest thing by far . . .
Is the intentional, creepily dishonest rhetoric following the passage of this bill that heavily intimates the President just signed universal health care. Press release after statement after speech from Congress, the President, and other supporters of the bill make claims that aren't just far loftier than what passed, but are outright malicious in their design to mislead and confuse.

When I first started reading these claims and statements, my first impulse was to think people were hallucinating. But no, there's is definitely something else at work here. The finer details of this bill are being buried under paper, propaganda, and spin. It's like a lot of exchanges I've had here. A talking point is posted. Ask a question. A somewhat shakier talking point is posted. Press the question. You are greeted with eventual silence. It's as if the more you tug on this bill, the quicker it unravels - and they know it.

There is a concerted effort to keep the American people in the dark about this bill.

Of course, that is only going to work until people are forced to cough up money they don't have. The minute the American people figure out what's in this bill, the Democratic party is going to get the bollocking of its life. I suspect they know this, which is why all the worst provisions take effect after the major players safely re-elected.

People who feel a bill will be electorally popular don't do everything possible to distance themselves from it as much as possible. From the vote-whipping to the concessions to the delays in implementation. Even the safest politicians seem to want to ensure that there will be no reckoning until it doesn't matter anymore.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. +10,000
Excellent post.
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R. nt
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Thanks:)
.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. David Frum: Health insurance bill builds on ideas developed at the conservative Heritage Foundation
"Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney's Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the conservative Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994."

http://www.aei.org/article/101820
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
20. k & r
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thanks:)
.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
22. .
.
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troubledamerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
23. Mar 23 2010: Democratic Murder-Suicide.
Mandates & excise tax. Boom. Boom.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Short, sweet, and to the point.
.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
26. Kicking for the swamp
.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
30. knr
now that corporations are people, they will decide who is on the ballot box. sadly.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-10 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. All the people who are saying the bill can be fixed seemed to have forgotten that SCOTUS decision
that no corporation should have its freedom of speech abridged. You know the founders are rolling over in their graves right now.
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
32. k&r
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