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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:10 AM
Original message
I am in a "discussion" with right wingers regarding this piece of shit article...
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. You can compile just as long a list of violent nutbaggery and say
that both sides have their extremes, and everyone needs to chill the hell out.
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Burma Jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
2. Conservatives Kill
Conservatives kill Health Care Providers

A Conservative Killed 168 people in Oklahoma City

Using Amy Bishop as an example is nonsense and Stack's diatribe is as anti-government as any Teabagger's screed.

If we're going to dig up old examples, Conservatives lynched thousands.......



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hypocrisyandlies Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. I would help
but it would be pointless. They have their minds made up. Fox News speaks nothing but the truth and everyone else is just making shit up. I'm done arguing with these people.
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I try not to argue with these people, but sometimes I can't help myself.
Especially with an article like this that portrays the right as "victims".
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hypocrisyandlies Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. True.
The article definitely made me mad. Especially the part where he said, "Glaringly obvious in this latest round of reports is that there are no specific examples of alleged threats of violence cited." and "Let me show you where real violence comes from." You want to see threats of violence? Go on any Republican Facebook site or head on over to Fox Nation and read the comments. It's right there for anyone with eyes to see.
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caty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. Ditto
As soon as I realize that the person I am speaking to watches Fox or listens to Rush, I simply say, "change the channel" - and I walk away. Many years ago, my father told me, when I went off to college that no matter where I went, I would run into at least one fool and that when I did, I should just walk away -- because a fool can't be reasoned with. He was right, only I call them republicans.
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era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
4. Burning up Hummer dealerships would just feel right
Maybe bite their finger off while quoting Bill Ayers and tell them Ann is really a man.
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Berry Cool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. First thing is that violence is not a tenet of mainstream progressive action.
Even in the '60s, when it was far more popular, it was strongly condemned by nonviolent activists. Second, it is rapidly becoming a tenet of mainstream conservative action. That's what conservatives need to stop.

The NewsBusters article tries to make it sound as if liberals are "equally" violent by producing a laundry list of violent actions by supposed liberals, and by trying to make it even longer than a list of such actions by conservatives. It's their typical childish "but YOU people are even WORSE than us, because YOU DO IT TOO and YOU DO IT MORE!" defense mechanism, and it's not only childish, it's a lie.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. +1
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
7. It's pointless, like arguing with a drunk - no one changes their mind and everybody
gets pissed off.

They are just wasted human life.

mark
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. ^^^ i like this answer.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
8. Okay, *cracks knuckles*
•It was not the fear of conservative violence that caused Ann Coulter's speech to be cancelled this week.
After lying about liberals for decades, it sounds like the chickens are coming home to roost. The text of that story reveals obnoxious bigotry by Coulter. If she didn't feel safe after stirring up religious bigotry, she'll get no sympathy from me.

"•It was a liberal who bit the finger off a man who disagreed with him on healthcare."
It was someone at a pro HCR rally. We don't know if he was a liberal or not. A teabagger started the fight. No one condones the action and no one put him up to it.

•It was Obama-loving Amy Bishop who took a gun to work and murdered co-workers.
"gun toting" doesn't sound like "Obama-loving" to me. Anyway crazy=/=liberal.

•Joseph Stack flew his plane into the IRS building after writing an anti-conservative manifesto.
He was a teabagger.

•It was liberals who destroyed AM radio towers outside of Seattle.
That's property destruction, not violence. No, it was ELF which is an offshoot of the cultish ALF. Liberals had nothing to do with it.

•It's liberals who burn down Hummer dealerships.
Again, ELF. Again, not violent.

•It was progressive SEIU union thugs who beat a black conservative man who spoke his mind.
With Fox News as it's source, I'm not going to credit the story.

•It's doubtful that a conservative fired shots into a GOP campaign headquarters.
You have no idea who did that. Perhaps a newly minted Gold Star Mom. Perhaps some anti-abortion nut who thinks the R.s are not extremist enough. There are those who did not thing McCain was sufficiently RW.

•In fact, Democrats have no monopoly on having their offices vandalized.
No, but only R. members of Congress and RW media people openly encourage it. Anyway, we don't know who did that vandalism in the linked story. For all we know the R.s did it in a mini Reischstag fire.

•Don't forget it was Obama's friend Bill Ayers who used terrorism as a tool for political change. SDS is still radical, with arrests in 2007 and the storming of the CATO Institute in July 2008.
You spent that nickle already. Please substantiate the SDS allegation. That group pretty much dissolved in the 1970s and were never a part of American liberalism. They are more like the teapartiers who have given up on democracy and resorted to threats. No liberal leaders encouraged this. Anyway, that was 40 years ago.

•It was a liberal who was sentenced to two years for bringing bombs and riot shields to the Republican National Convention in 2008.
Again, crazy=/=liberal. No one put him up to it and he was rightly convicted. Now of course it is okay to bring firearms to political rallies.

•It was a liberal who threatened to kill a government informant who infiltrated her Austin-based group that planned to bomb the RNC.
Again a radical, not a liberal. Seems the state has no problem prosecuting left wing criminals. We just want equal treatment for those who incite violence in Congress and on the public airways.

•It was liberals who assaulted police in Berkeley.
Again, given the source and it's sarcastic tone, I am not inclined to credit the story. Anyway, at most it was ONE guy who was trying to protect his friend. This isn't the same as Palin telling armed teabaggers to reload and putting rifle reticles on the districts of "targeted" members of Congress.

•It was liberals who intimidated and threw rocks through the windows of researchers.
Again, you are citing a disreputable source and you are assuming every cultish extremist is a liberal. Liberals generally support medical research and vote that way in Congress. Again, no one in authority put them up to it.

•The two Black Panthers who stood outside polls intimidating people with nightsticks were probably not right-wingers.
Disreputable source of information. This story is just part of the RW's efforts to whip up racist hysteria.

•Every time the G20 gets together, it's not conservatives who destroy property and cause chaos.
Cry me a river. They are primarily peaceful demonstrations against liberals and reactionaries who are colluding with corporate power. Any damage is incidental and not the purpose of the rallies.
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Thank you!!
This will be very helpful!
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Here's a direct quote for you:
Progressivism is the cancer in America and it's eating our Constitution, and it was designed to eat the Constitution - to progress past the Constitution," Beck said.

He said that the only difference between a communist and a progressive is that communists seize power through revolution and progressives through evolution.

"We don't want to evolve," Beck shouted.

"It's big government. It's a socialist utopia.

"We need to address it as if it is a cancer. It must be cut out of the system because they can not coexist. … You must eradicate it," Beck told the cheering crowd of conservatives.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. This is also a counter accusation...
...and it's purpose is to change the subject of the conversation. This isn't about what some lunatics did a few years ago or 40 years ago. It's about what Republican office holders and media allies are doing right now.
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
12. As fara as I am concerned I think tea bags are the KKK and the
republicans support them. They should be investigated and steps be taken to classify them for what they are the most violent hate group to walk the earth and that includes the terrorist in the far east.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
14. The Oklahoma City Bomber was a right wing freek...
Every anti-abortion murder has been comitted by a right wing freek, There have been dozens over the years.

The guy who tried to kill people in the holocaust museum was a right wing freek.

The guy who flew his plain into the IRS building was a right wing freek.

Rep. Slaughter's children were threatened with assasination by right wing freeks.

Have the look up Kristallnacht, performed by right wing freeks in Germany, then point out that bricks through the windows are done by right wing freeks.

Obama's secret service contingent has been bussier than any other in history becasue right wing freeks are threatening him at unprecedent rates.
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sfwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
15. How is Joe Stack leftist? I hate the IRS is central to their thesis?
Also, From the article:

"I could literally go on and on, but let's try to have some perspective here. Violence is a product of the fringe, on either side, and it's sickening to try to use it for political advantage."

True, but condoning and embracing it is worse, as the right wing media has done:

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/25/fox-threat-emails/

I would also remind them of the Knoxville UU shooting where the shooter was motivated by Michael Savage and Sean Hannity.

Point by point, you can refute the list as well:

First, who takes anyone seriously who writes, "I don't even need to mention the millions of babies killed every year by progressives or even the tens of millions of people murdered by their communist heroes."

These acts of "Liberal" violence, which took place over 40 YEARS include:

* It was not the fear of conservative violence that caused Ann Coulter's speech to be canceled this week.

Someone pulled a fire alarm during a shouting match between anti-coulter protesters upset by her racist comments about Muslim students riding camels and pro-coulter protesters mad that she was being called racist. Violence?

* It was a liberal who bit the finger off a man who disagreed with him on healthcare.

During a fight, which involves two individuals, people get hurt. Had the Liberal been aiming to bite off a finger, I guess you'd have something.

* It was Obama-loving Amy Bishop who took a gun to work and murdered co-workers.

Huh? Is the left claiming the acts of violence by every Bush-loving whack-job in the state of Alabama? Was their any intent to terrorize or coerce politically in this. No, just grandstanding atop random tragedy like this is simply shameful.

* Joseph Stack flew his plane into the IRS building after writing an anti-conservative manifesto.

Yes, that manifesto that contained elements that would have gotten him a standing ovation at the Tea Party convention that week and his attack on the IRS for taking his money was sooooooo liberal. He met with conservative tax action groups back in the day. His hatred was not fed by the left or condoned. I've seen plenty of posts that say the HCR will create a dozen Joe Stacks on the right though.

* It was liberals who destroyed AM radio towers outside of Seattle.

Was this condoned by any politician or media outlet on the left? Compare to Abortion violence on the right.

* It's liberals who burn down Hummer dealerships.

Again, radicals on the left, but I don't lump the people burning down clinics in an assessment of the current right-wing threats. Should I? While I have heard congressmen shout "baby-killer" from the floor of the house, as the author of this very article has sympathized with above, I see no similar shouts of ELF slogans in congress.

* It was progressive SEIU union thugs who beat a black conservative man who spoke his mind.

I see a lot of shouting and shoving, and the man on the ground there is in an SEIU shirt. Looks like two angry crowds got out of hand from that video. I know how the right has reported it, as a threat to all, as opposed to say, a recorded death threat, a note taped to the window, or an organized vigil with a coffin on your lawn. Of course, the author's point is that blowing something like this up into an organized act of intimidation would be wrong, right?

* It's doubtful that a conservative fired shots into a GOP campaign headquarters.

Really? Have you heard Tea Party rhetoric AGAINST the GOP? From the very article you link to:

"Corey Johns, the local Bush-Cheney campaign coordinator, said the office had received no threats."

They also point out that it may have been a response to their campaign of tearing down Kerry signs. (Side note here, in 1992 I worked the Clinton campaign in Knoxville. I had a man run his jeep up the side of a hill to smash my Clinton signs. Had I not scrambled up and grabbed a sapling, he would have smashed me as well. Election day, someone set fire to a mountain of Clinton signs on teh porch of teh wooden Democratic Party headquarters at 4 a.m. Had we not gotten there at 4:30, it would have burned to the ground... on election day.)

Compare to teh last 72 hours. Wow, different than Bohner egging them on, a series of death threats, then an act of vandalism. We call that progression of events escalation.

* In fact, Democrats have no monopoly on having their offices vandalized.

Great, that's three in six years on the right and how many this week. One is a campaign, the other a string of individual actions.

* Don't forget it was Obama's friend Bill Ayers who used terrorism as a tool for political change. SDS is still radical, with arrests in 2007 and the storming of the CATO Institute in July 2008.

Oh, So we can claim the right's acts of political violence over the last 40 years? I'll see your ayers and raise you one Timothy McVeigh, who has been quoted almost verbatum by the new Tea Party. His motivations and background are similar to the organized Oath Keepers.

Obama worked with Ayers after he had rejected violence as a means of change.

* It was a liberal who was sentenced to two years for bringing bombs and riot shields to the Republican National Convention in 2008.

He made molotov cocktails on site,at the urging of the FBI informant, was more Anarchist than Liberal, but otherwise similar to the yahoos driving around DC with sniper rifles to kill Obama I suppose. Then again, Liberal politicians don't use teh molotov cocktail as a symbol the way conservatives have started using crosshairs.

* It was a liberal who threatened to kill a government informant who infiltrated her Austin-based group that planned to bomb the RNC.

Yes, and condemned by all. Though reading the indymedia coverage, these people seem to feel they were entrapped by the FBI informant who encouraged the molotov cocktail building. I don't think they were encouraged by any left-leaning news outlet or politician.

* It was liberals who assaulted police in Berkeley.

Again, pretty fringe and unrelated to democratic policy. Should we start lumping every racial, homophobic and religious nutcase into our analysis of right-wing violence, because if we do, the post will roll on forever. I guess if the Dems own ELF then the Repubs get the white supremacists, right?

* It was liberals who intimidated and threw rocks through the windows of researchers.

Radical animal rights people, really?

* The two Black Panthers who stood outside polls intimidating people with nightsticks were probably not right-wingers.

"“We must organize to counter and neutralize these threats using all means at our disposal. This is a great time for our people, and we must ensure that peace prevails for our people.”

Wow, and they used the word peace...terrifying.

* Every time the G20 gets together, it's not conservatives who destroy property and cause chaos.

Yup, it is anarchists and marxists whose connection to the Democrats exists only in your fevered dreams.

You know, all this has proved is that the author is an apologist with a passing knowledge of google and no sense of history.

Hope you can use some of that. I don't mean to be so dismissive of some of those acts of actual violence. They should always be condemned, but they are not being propped up by a campaign of fear and misinformation and committed in a weekend, only to be justified by the right, with articles like this. They certainly haven't happened over the 40 years this guy has covered.

I don't want to get into a pissing match over which side is worse, though in body count alone, they win because of Oklahoma City. I do want to make a plea that this needs to simply stop, and anyone who doesn't condemn it should be held to account.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
16. A list of right wing violence perpetrated by Conservatvies...Send them this.
Edited on Thu Mar-25-10 11:56 AM by Ozymanithrax
Posted here - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=245178&mesg_id=246458

- July 2008. Knoxville police Sunday evening searched the Levy Drive home of Jim David Adkisson after he allegedly entered the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church and killed two people and wounded six others during the presentation of a children's musical. Inside the house, officers found "Liberalism is a Mental Health Disorder" by radio talk show host Michael Savage, "Let Freedom Ring" by talk show host Sean Hannity, and "The O'Reilly Factor," by television talk show host Bill O'Reilly. The shotgun-wielding suspect in Sunday's mass shooting at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church was motivated by a hatred of "the liberal movement," and he planned to shoot until police shot him, Knoxville Police Chief Sterling P. Owen IV said this morning.

- October 2008. Two white supremacists planning to go on a massive shooting spree in Tennessee, then to assassinate candidate Obama, were caught before they could act.

- January 2009. A white supremacist embarked upon a brutally violent killing spree in a Massachusetts suburb, targeting non-whites and Jews. He killed two immigrants and raped and shot a third. Police apprehended him before he could reach his final destination: a nearby synagogue in which he wanted to open fire.

- April 2009. A white supremacist, full of racist, anti-Semitic and anti-government conspiracy theories, ambushed and killed three Pittsburgh police officers.

- May 2009. An anti-government sovereign citizen and anti-abortion activist shot and killed a physician in Wichita, Kansas.

- June 2009. A rifle-wielding white supremacist entered Washington's Holocaust museum on Wednesday afternoon, fatally shooting a security guard.

- February 8 2010. An anti-goernment anti-tax individual flew an airplane into the IRS building in Austin
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Yet another threat of right wing violence by right wing conservatives...
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. ***Breaking on CNN**: white powder sent to Weiner's office.
Edited on Thu Mar-25-10 02:50 PM by Ozymanithrax
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