Today I had an exchange on Facebook that pretty much sums up for me the disconnect under which the Tea Partiers suffer. It all started with my Facebook status update and think the postings speak for themselves – I’ve done no editing for substance or style and only removed external links where noted (sorry for the length):
Me: is appalled by the thuggish behavior so-called “patriotic Americans” are demonstrating following passage of health care reform with which they disagree. Since when is it an American virtue to make death threats and commit acts of violence and vandalism based on an elected official's beliefs?
T-Bagger: The declaration of independence spells it out....." That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.....it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
Friend: I don't think Thomas Jefferson would want his words to be so grossly misrepresented as such. Comical in your presentation, I mean, seriously are you for real? How about the following quote... "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Seems as though you would like to interfere with this. Inciting hatred and violence because the government does something to help people is pure ignorance. I can only hope that your kind if selfishness, hatred, and poorly veiled racism, quickly becomes marginalized...you poor man, wannabe, Timothy McVeigh. Nice to see you get so riled up over denying health care and helping individuals. What the hell would your crowd have done during the civil rights period...Oh, we know...
T-Bagger: Considering the REPRESENTATIVES are NOT representing the 75% of the people (LATEST POLL NUMBERS) they deserve the fruits of their labor. This country WAS FOUNDED on the fact that we were NOT BEING REPRESENTED by the government at the time. And once again, the government is not representing the people.
Me: You can't seriously be equating the passage of the health care bill to the conditions in the American colonies in the eighteenth century that gave rise to the Declaration of Independence? This is was a piece of legislation passed in accordance with the framework of our Constitution by members of Congress elected pursuant to that same document by the citizens of the United States. Compare that to what our Founding Fathers fought against in 1776 and it’s a laughable argument – they suffered under the tyranny a despotic monarch, ruling from across the ocean, with no rights, no say, and no power to make any changes except through revolt. This is NOT the case with our system of government and the Declaration of Independence is not a call to arms at the mere disagreement with the decisions of one’s government. The Founding Fathers threw off the yoke of British oppression and replaced it with a representative government responsible to the will of the people through regular elections. That was the case in 1789 and that is the case now.
You quote from the Declaration of Independence that “whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive…” as suggesting that it is right for people to physically assault the members of congress who voted for the bill. But this ignores the fact that their vote was made within the framework of the US form of government. By relying on your selective quoting the Declaration of Independence you seem to be suggesting is that the US form of government, not the present members (who can be changed through elections) is flawed and needs to be cast aside and replaced. That is not patriotism or in the tradition of the Founding Fathers’ words and deeds, but rather treason. And what FORM of would you have replace the United States’ constitutional democracy that has existed for these two hundred years?
T-Bagger: 55% of Americans want Health bill repealed-<link to Rasmussen poll removed> say congress sucks- <link to Rasmussen poll removed> angry at gov policies- <link to Rasmussen poll removed>
T-Bagger: these bills will be p<aid for by TAXES. Representatives DID NOT listen to the voters and THAT is the same. 64% of the US budget goes to Welfare/medicaid....ENOUGH is ENOUGH. The Gov added 40,000 in debt for each of us to China to bail out these SAME insurance companies that they now guaranteed 30 million new PAYING customers to. Can we say MORE AIG Bonuses.....
Me: First off, claiming that 64% of the US budget goes to "welfare/Medicaid" is not only disingenuous and misleading, but it is entirely wrong. According to the OMB and CBO estimates, the FY2010 budget is $3.55 trillion. Of that, $290 billion - or about 8.2% - goes toward Medicaid. As for what you colloquially refer to as “welfare,” the budget allocates $695 billion – or about 19.5% - for Social Security, which includes programs to aid unemployed individuals and needy families, as well as accounts for the elderly, disabled, etc. – it is worth noting that the Social Security Act of 1935 passed the House by a vote of 372 to 33 (2 voted “present” and 25 not voting) and the Senate 77 to 6 with 12 not voting. If you're suggesting we do away with Social Security entirely, one only needs to read accounts and histories written about the 19th and early 20th centuries to understand its importance to the the elderly and infirm who can no long support themselves, as well as individuals and families that have fallen on economic hard-times, etc. If you impression is that American life before World War Two was all Leave it to Beaver and everyone pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps without assistance from the government in some way, you are living revisionist history and looking at the past through rose-colored glasses.
But the bigger issue is – and which you and the Tea Party movement need to recognize – is that taxes are a necessary part of living in America. Without them our society cannot function. How do you think the military is equipped? Taxes. How do our police officers and firefighters get paid? Taxes. Schools are built with taxes. Roads, bridges, tunnels, airports, all infrastructure is either built with or subsidized by taxes. When people do not have health insurance they go to emergency rooms, which are subsidized if not paid for entirely by taxes, for routine medical care. So by insuring more Americans their health care, when they need it, will be paid for by their health insurance companies rather than the taxes collected and used to support hospitals.
As for your comment about China’s increasingly holding US debt (once again, I’m not sure where you get your figures or information), and I can only guess that you are referring to companies like AIG that received assistance through the Troubled Asset Relief Program - which, lest we forget, was initiated by President Bush - when you talk about insurance companies that were “bailed out,” you confuse issues once again. Companies like AIG are not health insurance companies. They are underwriters of commercial and industrial insurance, meaning essentially they insured companies against corporate losses. This means that when financial companies like Morgan Stanely, Citi Group, Lehman Brother’s, etc., began to loose their liquidity because of their risky investments and creative accounting procedures, all of which were permitted, if not encouraged, by years of the GOP led attack on federal regulators in the name of the free-market economy, they turned to companies like AIG. This caused what in essence was corporate bank rush and overwhelmed AIG’s resources. I'm actually not sure why you link instances of corporate malfeasance and greed to leaving tens of millions of Americans uninsured, the two have nothing to do with each other unless your desire is to punish people for the behavior of others, which is a vaguely tyrannical and completely un-American thing to do.
As with all the “facts” and “figures” you toss around, the 55% of American’s wanting the law repealed is meaningless. Not only are polling numbers available that completely refute yours, as Chris noted above, but polls are merely a product of how the issue is presented and the question crafted, not to mention the organization conducting the poll and the sample taken. I’ve seen polling numbers that say about 47% of American’s opposed “Obama’s health care proposal,” yet when the same people were asked how they felt about the individual provisions of the bill without being told that they are part of the it the numbers were reversed – meaning that nearly 50% supported the provisions. What does this say about the majority of Americans when they are asked if they support health reform? That they don’t’ know what they’re talking about and become knee-jerk reactionaries to what people like Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity feed them.
Lastly, we do not live in a direct democracy but rather a representative one. This means we elect people to represent us. Some times the people we vote for are the ones that win, some times not. But the people voted into office are the representatives for the term they are in office and they are not required to poll their constituency for every decision and vote they make – nor should they. (I’d be curious to know how you felt when President Clinton was routinely criticized by the right for polling and appearing to make decisions based on what he thought the majority of the people wanted with regard to various proposals. You are essentially saying that is what should be done here.) If you're unhappy with how your representative voted on a particular issue then you can vote against them at the next election. What you cannot do, and which is completely against the principle of our democracy, is threaten and/or commit acts of violence against them because you don't agree. As I said earlier, doing so is tantamount to treason and goes completely against the foundation of our nation. To feel otherwise is to fundamentally misunderstand how our system of government works.
T-Bagger: MOST want the GOP to continue fighting AGAINST the Health bill- <link to CBS poll removed>
Me: Obviously you didn't read or understand my comment about the inherent deficiency about polls.
But more important and what was the point of my original post is that even if it is the case there is a percentage of people who want the law changed, that is not a reason or excuse to issue threats of violence or commit acts of vandalism against elected officials, or anyone for that matter, who disagrees with another's position.
Me: Imagine that, here's a poll that says the majority of American's support the bill: <link to Gallup poll removed>
T-Bagger: All polls are dependent upon the people polled. The bottom line here is government has no right in my personal life, nor does it have a right to force me to purchase A PRODUCT. The Constitution EXPLICITLY states what the Fed is allowed to do, and the REST OF IT is left "To the people OR the State".
Me: Nice. Now that you're reliance on taxes and polling data has fallen apart you switch to the argument that the Constitution is sacrosanct. A convenient tactic used by so-called strict constructionists when there is a proposal with which they disagree, but remarkably simplistic when one reads the Federal Papers, written by the drafters of the Constitution, and considers that the Constitution was written and intended to be a living document that could grow with the development of the nation.
And again you are completely missing the point of my original post, which I'll make one last time:
WHATEVER IS ONE'S OPINION OF THE BILL, THERE IS NO PLACE IN THE UNITED STATES DEMOCRACY FOR VIOLENCE OR VANDALISM TARGETED AGAINST THOSE WHO VOTED IN FAVOR OF IT OR WITH WHOM YOU DISAGREE.
T-Bagger: We wouldn't even be a country if that were the case.
Me – not posted, just thought – Sigh. What is happening to our country?
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