The facts are simple. Refusing to recognize and respond means more death and crimes.

[understandinglife]

1. Bush, Cheney and their neoconster buddies planned a war of aggression (for reference: http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/390?OpenDocument).

2. That is a crime.

3. Bush, Cheney and their neoconster buddies lied to everyone to justify their war of aggression.

4. That is a crime.

5. Those who didn't do their homework are complicit in the crime.

6. Bush, Cheney and their neoconster buddies launched a war of aggression.

7. Bush, Cheney and their neoconster buddies and all those who have not done everything legal, ethical and peaceful to bring a halt to their crimes are guilty of the gravest of crimes (for reference: http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/390?OpenDocument).

8. Bush, Cheney and their neoconster buddies and ALL THOSE COMPLICIT in their crimes continue to perpetuate those crimes each and every moment that the United States of America and their mercenaries occupy, illegally, the sovereign nation of Iraq.

Majority Leader Reid, Speaker Pelosi and all your colleagues - FACE THE FACTS.

My Fellow Americans - FACE THE FACTS.

Your choice - Are you on the side of the law or are you a WAR CRIMINAL?

Your choice.

History will not be forgiving.

Peace.

[puebloknot]

1. K&R Precisely! While Reid and Pelosi dither, people die! nt

[treelogger]

2. Sorry, disagree.

"Bush, Cheney and their neoconster buddies planned a war of aggression. That is a crime."

But just about impossible to prove. They have a good excuse: They believed it was going to make the world a better place. Impossible to disprove.

There is a much stronger charge which people tend to forget: The US is a signatory of the treaty of Munster (1648) a.k.a. the Westphalian peace treaty, which allows each country to select its ruler itself. Therefore, we had no business disapproving of Saddam, and replacing him by force. (By the way, if you are wondering how the US can be a signatory to a treaty that was signed before the US existed: in international law, the US is considered as spawned by the UK, which is a signatory, therefore the US is a signatory to all treaties the British crown entered in. This theory was used several times to the US's advantage during WW2.)

"Bush, Cheney and their neoconster buddies lied to everyone to justify their war of aggression. That is a crime."

No, it is not. Only if you lie under oath. Not if you lie in a speech or when making policy. Otherwise Senator Feinstein would have to spend the rest of her life in jail; she lies regularly about firearms, to support her anti-gun agenda.

"Those who didn't do their homework are complicit in the crime."

Like the senators who voted for the US to start the war? Are you suggesting to impeach Senator Clinton, because she voted for the war?

Where I agree with you: The attack on, and the occupation of, Iraq are fully in violation of international law. But international law does not have punitive measures.

They are not impeachment material. They are stupidity material. The people who caused this to happen should be ostracized from politics. And that includes a frighteningly large fraction of democrats, who forgot their convictions and principles, followed the polls, and were swept along by a wave of jingoism.

[gipper66]

3. backbone

Everyday I pray the dem's get the backbone to paint bush into a corner instead of the current finesse/see who blinks first policy. We have the mandate. Use it.

[understandinglife]

4. As I said, "your choice" ....

[EFerrari]

5. Congress didn't vote to make the world a better place.

they voted to defend the United States if Bush could produce evidence of a threat. John Dean has an extended exposition on this in "Worse Than Watergate".

Bush and Cheney both ARE under oath -- they are both sworn to defend the Constitution, remember?

And it's possible that DiFI should go to jail because she is similarly sworn and she lied to her constituents about the fake threat from Iraq when she knew damn well there was no such threat.

[understandinglife]

7. Precisely ...

:hi:


Peace.

[EFerrari]

8. Good to read you, my friend.

:hi:

[magellan]

9. Actually, Bush** and Cheney LIED us into a war

...by "fixing the intelligence and facts around the policy", there is proof, and it IS a crime right here in this country against something called the Constitution.

[EFerrari]

10. I wonder if the Constitution is also quaint nowadays.

It's so hard to stay current when Junior's legal eagles keep rewriting it. :sarcasm:

[magellan]

15. It'll come back to bite everybody

Mark my words. And the same ones who right now aren't taking these criminals seriously will be moaning "Why didn't the Dems impeach the bastards?"

Madness. :mad:

[EFerrari]

16. You're right.

:mad:

[Thothmes]

21. Constitution

Missed that one, exactly which Article/section/Amendment addresses this crime

[magellan]

23. Article II Section 4

Lying about and fabricating intelligence to take this country to war is a high crime, if not treason.

[fooj]

11. Hitler believed that he would make the world a better place.

Excuses don't cut it where the RULE OF LAW is concerned. They launched a PRE-EMPTIVE war of aggression. The President takes an oath to DEFEND AND PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION. That oath doesn't miraculously disappear when he gives a speech or makes policy. Forging documents to justify an illegal war isn't a crime? Since when? Outing a covert CIA agent is considered TREASON. Treason's consequence = death. And I'm just warming up.

These people aren't Americans. They are imposters "posing" as Americans. They are EVIL to the core and they have broken just about every law known to man...both domestically AND internationally. Actually, the word "people" is too generous. "Animals" is a better term.

Truth will set u.s. free.

[EFerrari]

6. They mounted no defense on 9/11. They let New Orleans drown.

They are lining their pockets while our troops are sitting ducks and while Iraq hungers and thirsts.

They are scofflaws.

[Zodiak]

14. good word...scofflaws

and appropriately used, I might add.

Thanks for the vocab lesson.

[EFerrari]

12. kick

[earth mom]

13. EXACTLY! nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

17. K&R

[porphyrian]

18. Those of us who survive this may not be forgiving, either.

Time to wake the fuck up.

[understandinglife]

19. I am so far from "forgiving" these criminals I could live 100 years and never get there ....

[treelogger]

20. Find a crime

OK, let's try a different tack.

You want to impeach Bush or Cheney? Fine. You need to find exactly where they committed a crime.

Note that the constitution itself does not define any crimes. Not upholding the constitution is not punishable. Nor is starting a war (that is authorized by congress), nor is falsifying evidence in a political process.

If you want to claim that they committed a crime, please cite the exact section of penal code they violated, or describe the crime in technical terms.

For example, Gonzalez just committed perjury - he was under oath when testifying before congress, and he said something he knew to be untrue. That is a crime. Another example: Al Capone cheated on his taxes, which is a crime. Terry McVeigh murdered several hundred people, and murder is a crime.

I'm waiting for a crisp legal definition by which Bush, Cheney and Co committed crimes.

Where I agree with you: Their behavior is morally totally inacceptable, violates the text and the spirit of the constitution (for example in the Patriot act), and violates a whole bevy of international treaties (beginning with Geneva). And it destroyed the international reputation and trustworthyness of the US, which will take generations to restore. But there is no section in the federal penal code, which says "If you violate the Geneva convention, you will be sent to federal prison, for a term not to exceed 10 years". Before you continue spouting about "crimes", you need to find some "crimes".

[symbolman]

22. LYING TO CONGRESS

is a CRIME.

Period.

When Bush gave his SOTU Speech, he was UNDER OATH, as required by the Constitution. HE addressed CONGRESS UNDER OATH.

HE LIED, so THAT is a CRIME.

Anything else? There really is PLENTY. DO some research.

Simple, isn't it?

[treelogger]

24. Incorrect.

Does the state of the union speech begin with an oath, like is taken of witnesses in court, or when being interrogated by a congressional committee? Not to my knowledge. The fact that he has sworn a general oath to uphold the constitution doesn't make a wrong statement in a speech to congress into perjury.

Now, if Bush were to be deposed, or were to be questioned by congress, both under oath, that would be a different question.

Want to prove me wrong? Find the place in the constitution where it explicitly says that the state-of-the-union speech is a deposition under oath, or find the transcript of the speech.

If lying while addressing congress is a crime, then about half of all the oratory that goes on in that body would cause people to go to jail. Which some might find a good thing, but let's not argue about that.

[symbolman]

25. You're WRONG

I proposed this years ago, and MANY HIGH POWERED Lawyers jumped on it, and Professed it to Be TRUE.. in headier language than I can muster..

Go stick up for YOUR BOY elsewhere...

[treelogger]

27. Can you please elaborate

You suggest "I proposed this years ago, and MANY HIGH POWERED Lawyers jumped on it, and Professed it to Be TRUE." Can you please elaborate? The constitution says quite clearly that impeachment can be done for treason, bribery, high crimes and misdemeanors. It should be easy for you to give a specific example (with a citation of the penal code section) of which high crime or misdemeanor you accuse the shrub off. To my knowledge, lying (when not under oath) is not a crime. If so many high powered lawyers agreed with you, it should be easy to dig out what they said. And if they are lawyers, I would assume that they professed it in lawyer-speak, which tends to be rife with facts and citations.

The above paragraph can be summarized as "put up or shut up".

You also insult by saying "Go stick up for YOUR BOY elsewhere..."
Sorry, he is not my boy. I personally find his politics and his actions deplorable. But unlike you, I am not of the opinion that deplorable actions are impeachable offenses.

[symbolman]

28. CONCERN TROLL

is what we call people that WASTE people's time by demanding they prove something that the person COULD LOOK UP THEMSELVES.

I KNOW you don't want to be called ONE OF THOSE, and I WOULD NEVER CALL YOU ONE.

But Don't waste my time anyway.

ALL I'll say to you, maybe you're lonely, yeah, that could be it.

[bonito]

26. K&R n/t