Something that few remember about Waco, Tx and the idiocy of right wing anti-Americanism...

[Union Yes]

The 51 day standoff.

Why does that matter?

Because for 51 days, Federal Govt officials from the ATF and other agencies attempted a peaceful negotiation and end to the standoff. They attempted every peaceful solution known. Feds tried negotiating daily. Tried to negotiate release of children who were being held hostage etc. Nothing worked.

Remember, Feds were attempting to negotiate with Right Wing, Hate-America, ultra fundie christian extremists that had literally declared war on America from their fortified compound in the hills near Waco, Tx.

For 51 days.

Feds chose to attempt peace for 51 days. To attempt a peaceful end to the stand-off. Koresh wouldn't have it.

After 51 days, all hell broke loose and the compound was burnt to the ground in a bloody raid. It didn't have to come to violence, but Koresh and his anti-American wingnuts wouldn't have it any other way. Koresh and his Davidians chose a violent end rather than a peaceful end.

Feds could have vaporized the compound from day 1. A military air strike or 2 would've leveled the joint. End of story. Koresh wouldn't have known what hit him.

But our Federal Govt chose to attempt a peaceful solution and end to the stand-off. For 51 days.

The point of all this..

Anyone that wants to declare war against America in a bloody revolution just doesn't know the incredible power of the US military or the capabilities of the FBI, ATF etc.

I served in the 82nd Airborne Division from 1991-1995. I witnessed firsthand the awesome firepower, technology, stealth, training, fitness, readiness of that incredible division. One of many hardcore, badass divisions throughout our military.

Delta Force, Marine Recon, Navy Seals, Army Rangers, 101st Airborne, etc..

The Teabag Revolution wants a piece of that? 50-60 somethings with 12 gauges, ought sixes really think they have a chance? WTF are they smoking?

A 50 year old beer gut with a 12 gauge doesn't scare our military.

Please don't think that I'm some pro-war nut after reading this. Serving turned me into a pacifist. A 75% reduction in our 'defense' budget type pacifist.

I wonder if Teabaggers have stopped and actually thought about what they would face if they declare war or bloody revolution against America.

Teabaggers vs The US Military. Do Teabaggers really want a piece of that?

[47of74]

1. Teabaggers aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed

They think that the military would break their oaths to the government, turn on said government, and back them.

[seabeyond]

2. i have never understood the attack on the feds during that. as you say.... 51 days

of working for a peaceful resolution.

i understand the monday quarterbacking arguments. and i understand the issue on day 51. and still.... i see the responsibility of it on l
koresh's shoulder.

[Cleita]

3. You said.

I wonder if Teabaggers have stopped and actually thought about what they would face if they declare war or bloody revolution against America.

No they haven't thought of anything because they are bone stupid. When DH and I were traveling around in an RV, we met people like this all the time. They were retired and had spent their whole lives working at the same job and going to church a couple of times a week for their brainwashing sessions. I read someplace where constant fear affects the brain. Since those churches operate on the fears they can instill in their members, it's no wonder they are stupid. IMHO.

[Gman2]

4. They THINK the oathkeepers and Rush zombie soldiers will revolt.

[HereSince1628]

5. Quinippiac says that most teabaggers are WOMEN

please don't be sexist by default. :rofl:

[Vickers]

6. "Serving turned me into a pacifist." Me too.

It's amazing...there are a couple of sites I visit that have a substantial repuke membership, and they brag about how many rounds they have.

It's like, dude, one RPG in to your trailer and

*POOF!*

[Union Yes]

22. Word!

:fistbump:

:hi:

[FirstLight]

7. Spot on...

Yes, the Govt did try the rational peacful solution...but let's also remember the crazy they were dealing with. Koresh was another Jim Jones, hell bent of becoming a Martyr for his cause...(not so different than the terrorists, eh?)

And you are so right about these folks not even realizing that they would find themselves on the OPPOSOSING team from the US military. It is so funny how they all forget that the taxes they oppose are the paychecks of the people they think will play on 'their' team... duh!

but you are speaking in *Rational* terms - that may as well be a wholly different language for these knuckledraggers, like FRENCH! (those damn socialists!

[The2ndWheel]

8. So in general theory

Might makes right. Which makes sense, because fundamentally, it's the only way all of this works anyway. Seeing the potential power of the federal government should scare one to such an extent, as to obey, or possibly be vaporized. Then people wonder why Americans are afraid of their government.

[seabeyond]

11. i guess we can be a lawless nation, with no authority or rule of law????

post like this are silliness to me. i am the first to stand up and yell against abuse of power, and the responsibility those who have power not to abuse it. the trust in their integrity and character in holding that power. that is the challenging balance when dealing with people. then it is our responsibility to stand up to the abuse of power

but to suggest the op should be interpreted in your manner, is making up your own story, with your own words, to fit your agenda... really ignoring what op says

[951-Riverside]

9. "Feds could have vaporized the compound from day 1. A military air strike or 2 would've leveled the"

...disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.

Years ago I would have see this kind of talk on freerepublic but I never expected to see it here but I get it, for many people their political "beliefs" are not their true beliefs, for many its about winning. I have a feeling many people here opposed Bush and his horrific policies simply because he was not on their team (ie a democrat).

[spoony]

14. No shit, I mean what are we supposed to be

Impressed by the generosity of NOT hitting a building full of kids with a daisy cutter?

[tmyers09]

17. He was simply stating a fact.

Nowhere did he imply that that was something he wanted to happen.

[Union Yes]

20. Reason is a great thing! Thanks for clearing that up. Well said.

:fistbump:

:hi:

[tmyers09]

21. No problem. I think that's one area that everyone can agree on.

[mrcheerful]

23. If cons were in charge during the Waco thing, the key words were "could have",

there wouldn't have made any attempts at talking them out of their compounds. In fact that was what happened to the Black Panthers back when Nixon was president, the FBI gathered outside of a Black Panther house, bum rushed it while firing their weapons at the house before any Black Panthers fired a shot. That is the con way, shoot first ask questions later. Same with Kent State Ohio, the NG was sent in and 7 students ended up being gunned down and no students had any weapons pointed at the NG.

Under democratic control Waco and Ruby Ridge, which the stand off was started by those inside firing on law enforcement, instead of letting their dispute to be settled in a court of law, like most law abiding citizens do even though they know the court is stacked against them. These wing nuts refused to obey law, opened fire on law enforcement and still the law enforcement tried to talk them out before doing anything. Under Cons there would have been no stand off, the cons would have sent the planes and tanks in to take them out on day one. That is the point the person was making.

[Union Yes]

24. Word. Well said. Thank you.

:fistbump:

:hi:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

30. That's a misrepresentation of the OP.

By the way, how's that "Democrats run false flag operations but Republicans don't" thing working out fer ya?

[hlthe2b]

10. If there was any scene in a Hollywood movie that underscores the thinking

when testosterone-driven hot-heads gun up and let their heated rhetoric drive them off a cliff, it is the scene in Gone With the Wind at the Wilkes Family Barbecue, when Rhett deigns to speak up amongst the boisterous confederate crowd, demanding war.

As they boast of winning in days, not weeks and that their "good breeding" would win out over the crude Yankees any day, Rhett begins to point out the obvious-- that the North held all the cards. That the south "has no cannon factories, only a few iron foundries, and few textile factories. Moreover, the Yankees could block the South's harbors so that no cotton could be exported. Rhett has spent some years in the rapidly industrializing North, and has seen the thousands of immigrants who would fight for the Yankees for food and pay, and the many factories and mines. He says, "Why, all we have is cotton and slaves and arrogance. They'd lick us in a month."


This pattern of willful ignorance and ego driven insanity continues decade after decade, century after century...

:shrug:

[Union Yes]

15. You're right. That scene could fit the modern thinking behind TB'ers..

ignorance and arrogance. Some things never change. It's frustrating as hell.

[JustAnotherGen]

25. That is a fantastic analogy

Very well said! ;-)

[old mark]

12. Koresh's folks fired on Federal agents - several officers were shot, and

the Feds returned fire.

My understanding of the fire that destroyed the BD's buildings was that they were set by Koresh himself - he wanted martyrs, and wanted to gain support of other Fundies against the government. In various video clips I have seen, you can see the feds pulling back from the fire, and you can also see several feds being shot from the buildings.

mark

[datasuspect]

13. here's the rub

the military and law enforcement come from these people.

every little shitburg in this country: soldiers and cops are the sons and daughters of defiantly ignorant backwater wal mart uhhhmerica. people don't join the military to serve, they join because of lack of opportunity.

here's what would happen:

1. pockets of insurrection

2. the police and military will be called in to suppress the threat.

3. it gets reported. images of fat americans incinerated to the bone but with clothing intact will leak out from european news sources.

4. people go apeshit

at some point, the horror of the military incinerating american civilians will cause one of two things: further repression or the breakdown of social order. at some point social order would be preserved through kinship systems and local administration of justice. that's when familial networks or community networks take precedence over federal authority.

the point being, i'd imagine lots of troops would abandon the military rather than kill their own kin (or people like them).

[WolverineDG]

16. They could have served him with the warrant when he was out jogging nt

[mmonk]

18. I don't know if they do but I do know I would pull up a chair

and have some popcorn.

:popcorn:

[Lebam in LA]

19. They are probably thinking that the vets

they have represent our entire military

[JustAnotherGen]

26. You are right

But my dad is a Former Green Beret, Army Captain. He's seen it all, he's done it all. And he was commissioned as an Officer under a Democratic President (Kennedy). His heart and trigger finger lean on the left. Unlike his peers - he's actually active at 67, and still does 100 push ups every morning- 12 years after a stroke.

Their arrogance that every 'vet' is with him - will be part of their own 'doing in'. Should they opt to go off the deep end entireley.

[Rex]

27. The government blew it, all the rationalizing in the world won't make it not-so.

They had months to arrest him at a local grocery store where he would go shopping. Not to say he wasn't crazy and dangerous - all the more reason to pull up and throw him in a black unmarked car - yeah sounds creepy, but the kids would still be alive IMO.

[ThomWV]

28. Ask yourself this - how many days would it have lasted under Bush? My guess is 9 days

I think it would take about 9 days for the asswipe to figure out his authority was being challenged, and after that the compound would have lasted an hour at the most.

[Hippo_Tron]

29. The President has limited powers to use the military on American soil under the Insurrection Act

Granted Bush would've just ignored the law so you could make the argument that Clinton certainly had that option. But given a pre 9/11 world and a general precedent that Presidents follow the law most of the time, if I were Koresh I would probably base my strategy on the assumption that the President would follow the law.

Next you have to assume that the President is going to make the decision that best ensures his chances of being re-elected (since politicians seek first and foremost to be re-elected). It's not just that the President or the Attorney General would feel bad about ordering the place to be leveled because they would feel bad about killing all of those children (I'm sure they would) but that it would be a political disaster if the children died (which they did and it was).

I can't make an argument for certain as to whether or not Koresh pursued a rational strategy because the guy was so fucking nuts that we don't know what he was trying to do. But if his intention was to force the government to level the place and make the government to raid the place and look bad while doing it because there were children in there, then yes he absolutely pursued the correct strategy.

[Recursion]

31. Eh. The narrative of the Waco standoff diverges from history in a lot of ways

First off, they weren't a recognizably "right-wing" group; they didn't push any agenda we would call "conservative" (or "liberal", other than a few things about race relations; they were mostly just bizarre).

Secondly, just like with the Ruby Ridge fiasco earlier, the law enforcement agencies' actions leading up to the standoff were dishonest and counterproductive, and in both cases ATF and FBI tried very hard to cover that up.

[eridani]

32. Molly Ivins, Texas liberal, did NOT approve!

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=19930422&id=gSwhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Y3sEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5278,1328905

Ivins on Waco