Thank you, Turkey

[question everything]

These days, when it appears that religious parties are taking over in many parts of the world, the secularists in Turkey won a court decision to block the election of a religious man to be the president.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/02/world/europe/02turkey.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[SammyWinstonJack]

1. Too bad that didn't happen here. We and the World would have been better off.

Not that I think that george is a religious man, he just plays at being one.

[porphyrian]

2. I was just thinking the same thing. - n/t

[bdamomma]

4. W is no religious man.

we should all know that now.

[bryant69]

17. Yes he is a religious man

And we should all know that now.

And I say that as a Christian who's earned the enmity of many atheists around here (to be fair I've earned the enmity of a wide swath of people).

Bryant

[Tempest]

18. Bush is an old testament kinda guy

You know the kind.

The vengeful, murdering, torturing and slavery kinda God.

[bryant69]

19. I think there will be books written about his faith some day

Heck there already have been a few.

Honestly, I don't think that saying he's an old testament Christian is complete; rather I think his religion is a sort of Cosmic get out of jail free card. God has chosen him and him alone to be a hero for our times. Thus anything he does is with the approval of God. He claims to pray all the time, and I believe he probably does. But in his worldview God is kind of a cosmic cheerleader always pushing him on to further victories. It's why after a life of business failures and being rescued by his fathers friends, he felt qualified to be president.

Heck God is kind of like those buddies of his dad's who bailed him out writ large.

Bryant

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. Thank you

And I'll acknowledge he's not your kind of Christian.

[bdamomma]

22. yea, too much religion can make a person stupid.

[bryant69]

3. Nothing wrong with a little discrimination, so long as you are discriminating

against the right people.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Tyler Durden]

12. Here we go again...

Friend, the issue is constitutional, and the Turkish had enough of Theocracy under the Ottoman Empire. That's why they wrote the document that way.

[bryant69]

16. You can be religious and yet not in favor of theocracy.

"But Mr. Gul, an observant Muslim who is Turkey’s foreign minister, has kept Islam out of public policy in his four years in government, and his supporters said the decision was simply an attempt to hold on to power by Turkey’s secular elite, which has controlled the state since Ataturk’s revolution in 1923."

Of course what is particularly troubling is the idea that some here would apparently like to see such a constitutional amendment here

Bryant

[Tempest]

5. This doesn't makes sense, and here's why

Gul has been Turkey's Foreign Minister for the last four years and he has never put his religion before his duties. He has the support of the majority of the country.

In fact, this is going to blow up in the faces of the secularists.

Parliament will most likely be disbanded over this fiasco and as in other recent local elections, the Islamists will win a majority of the seats in new Parliamentary elections.

[northzax]

6. yep- nothing like real oppression

to legitimize the always oppressed fundies.

[varun]

7. I agree

Turkey should let its Islamists have some voice in their democracy. Stifling their voice will only make them grow stronger.

[question everything]

8. We wil just have to wait and see (nt)

[still_one]

9. I disagree, the majority in Turkey is secular

right now the Islamists control about 30 some percent of the seats, what makes you think they will gain more?

[Tempest]

10. Look at the last local elections in Turkey

The Islamic parties cleaned up.

The last Parliamentary elections were five years ago, the next elections are this November, and the make-up of the voters has changed dramatically since then.

[Kagemusha]

11. Any way you slice it ,this blocking was on a technicality

because a quorum was denied due to a parliamentary walkout.

[Nikki Stone1]

13. Technicalities still stand. I could have used a Supreme Court technicality on late term abortion

"Hey, Clarence Thomas is out playing golf. We can't vote on this thing. Sorry, try again next year."

[Kagemusha]

15. Oh, I never said it wouldn't stand. Besides, this can't be appealed further

It's just that from either side - the blocking sucks and will hurt secularists, or the blocking's great, it'll hurt islamists - it's a technicality, and this Gul guy might become President after general elections. Or he might not. It's hard to say.

Far cry from tanks in the streets though.

[Nikki Stone1]

20. We'll just have to wait and see.

There needs to be a big pair of glasses smiley.

[happyslug]

14. Yes, the Secular Parties in Turkey won in Court, for their KNEW they would lose the vote.

The problem is NOT that the "Religious Parties" are Religious, but that since the AK Party (the party we are talking about) took power, they have LOWERED the Inflation rate from over 60% to under 10%. Thus it is NOT religion that is the issue, but economics and given Turkey's history since the 1960s the only party that can run a functional economy seems to be the religious parties mainly the AK.

For more see yesterday comments on this decision.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2829949

[Hidden Stillness]

23. Turkey's Democracy is Still Very Threatened

I don't know the specifics of this court decision, but I have been following somewhat (typical media ignorance of the crisis in Turkey) the ongoing situation there. Turkey became a part of the modern world of secular, Constitutional democracies with the rise of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who became President, led Turkey to its independance, (1923), and eventually instituted many laws that might be considered dictatorial nowadays, but necessary to move Turkey into the modern world of secular, Constitutional law and politcal system--all expressions of religion (Islam, mainly, obviously), were banned, and people were arrested for public displays. Women had much greater freedom and autonomy here than anywhere else in the region but Israel. Lately, along with the entire rest of the Middle East, Turkey has started to be threatened by the rise of Medieval-style Islamic fundamentalism, and I caught a BBC News report on TV a couple of months ago, of a huge counter-rally protesting the increasing power of Islamic ideas and practices in Turkey, threatening its modern freedom and ties to the West, and fighting for the continued State of Turkey. The protest, to keep Turkey secular, was huge and loud. I felt inspired by the fighting-back, but continue to be afraid for the future of Turkey, once a gem of the whole area.

As for the idea that they should "give Islamic fundamentalists more of a say in things, so they will not get angrier and more militant," etc., that disastrous thought reminds me of my own ignorance when the Iranian militants took over the U.S. Embassy in Teheran whan Jimmy Carter was President, and held them hostage. One of the hostage-takers' demands was that the Ayatollah Khomeini be allowed to return to Iran as its new leader, after they had deposed the Shah. Stupidly, I thought "If they all want this, then maybe we should go along with this part of it, anyway." What a disaster. I will never forget how horiffic the results can be, when you are ignorant and naive. Give these Taliban/Sharia-following/theocratic/Islamic State male movements any victories at all, and the first thing you will find, is that you yourself have no rights anymore.