The Soul does not exist

[Cattledog]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125304448

The fact that scientists can adjust morality with a magnet may be disconcerting to people who view morality as a lofty and immutable human trait, says Joshua Greene, psychologist at Harvard University. But that view isn't accurate, he says.

"Moral judgment is just a brain process," he says. "That's precisely why it's possible for these researchers to influence it using electromagnetic pulses on the surface of the brain."

The new study is really part of a much larger effort by scientists to explain how the brain creates moral judgments," Greene says. The scientists are trying to take concepts such as morality, which philosophers once attributed to the human soul and "break it down in mechanical terms."

If something as complex as morality has a mechanical explanation, Green says, it will be hard to argue that people have, or need, a soul.

[Hannah Bell]

1. i don't see that green's logic follows. if death of the body doesn't *negate* the existence of a

soul, why should interference with the workings of the body, or an icepick through the brain, or anything else?

& "soul" isn't about morality, anyway.

[crim son]

2. I don't see a link between morality and the existence of a soul.

And let's face it, it's never been easy to argue to an atheist that a soul exists. I do find the study very interesting... maybe we should use the nine militia members just arrested as subjects in a morality-changing experiment.

[abelenkpe]

5. Wait....

One can't be an atheist and still believe in a soul?

[omega minimo]

10. All things are possible under the Sun

:hi:

[abelenkpe]

3. O!

I never thought it was the source of morality.

[Quantess]

4. This should be in the Religion Forum. (no text)

[Cattledog]

7. This study has nothing to do with Religion

Read the article and listen to the program. It has to do with morality which they contend is rooted in biology.

[omega minimo]

11. how do they equate morality with soul?

:popcorn:

[Cattledog]

16. The words soul and psyche can be considered synonyms

[omega minimo]

18. according to whom?

I have read your link yet but will do so. Sounds interesting.

[Cattledog]

22. The Greeks

PSYKHE (or Psyche) was the goddess of the soul, wife of Eros the god of love.

[omega minimo]

23. LOL

:rofl:

[Maru Kitteh]

24. They're dead.

[omega minimo]

26. LOL

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Cattledog]

30. They can't be dead...they're Gods...with Souls!

[ChairmanAgnostic]

6. and what of Rhythm and Blues? Huh? HUH?

Did they try to measure that?

I have no doubt that the Skunk Works is far along the path of brain control, at least as to some base emotions or memories, like fear, hunger, sex, etc.

[elocs]

8. I love it when I find out a thread got moved after I already composed a reply.

So, the soul does "not" exist. Exactly how is a negative proven? :shrug:

Not everything that people have in life is a "need", but life would certainly be more empty without them. How does science measure or quantify love or explain why people want to have it even if they don't "need" it?

[omega minimo]

9. Backasswards logic

"If something as complex as morality has a mechanical explanation, Green says, it will be hard to argue that people have, or need, a soul."

Isn't even logical. Why is it so important to "prove" "the Soul does not exist" and why is it so damn hard to do? :spray:

[Fire1]

12. So much for the human spirit. n/t

[Cattledog]

13. Has anyone actually read the article?

And not just the snippet??? I find it ironic that so many at DU reacted with such a closed mindedness to this interesting question on what constitutes morality aka the "Soul"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Just watch.

Some woo woo is going to read into this that electromagnetic fields are spiritual or divine in nature.

[tama]

29. Electrons are friendly

they wave at you! :hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. They always flip me off.

They're very negative.

[beam me up scottie]

35. Yep.

There will be good electromagnetic fields and evil electromagnetic fields, and they will point to this research and claim it supports their woo.

[RagAss]

15. The ego is not real...all imagined volition is obviously a misapprehension.

[omega minimo]

19. Well, there's that

:spray:

[aikoaiko]

17. This goes back to Descartes' dualistic model of the human body

Most of what we are, Descartes said, is a mechanical body. Even then he talked about "animal spirits" causing reflex action. Consciousness was controlled by the soul. Conscious thought made us different from other animals.

As our technology and research methods became more sophisticated, nerve conduction replaced animal spirits.

Soon, neural activity started to replace metaphysical stuff as an explanation for conscious thought.

This research is just one more step in the long processes of kicking out metaphysical explanations for behavior.

Does it prove the soul doesn't exist? No. But then again, no one can ever prove a negative.

[omega minimo]

21. and the question of consciousness

[Duer 157099]

20. And in related news: children do not have souls

"'If no harm was done, then subjects would judge as OK,' she says, even if the story made it clear Grace was trying to poison her friend. That's the sort of moral judgment you often see in kids who are 3 or 4 years old, Young says."

Or, the headline could be:

Breaking: the Soul is subject to magnetic fields

Maybe God keeps people in hell using magnets?

And, maybe the rapture is going to be using a bunch of big ole magnets?

But seriously, is it news that our brains respond to magnetic fields? It's not to me.

[omega minimo]

25. "And, maybe the rapture is going to be using a bunch of big ole magnets?"

:spray::rofl:



"But seriously, is it news that our brains respond to magnetic fields? It's not to me."
It's news to them:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8045730&mesg_id=8045730

[Better Today]

27. Sounds like more studies need to be done, but if this holds,

y'know this knowledge could be a godsend for many with social dysfunctions. Instead of using magnets to mute the area, perhaps a manner of stimulation could be found.

This is exciting.

[damntexdem]

28. We already know that thinking invovles firing neurons.

It's not surprising that scientists can influence it.

And science MUST continue to explain as much as it can.

All this has nothing to do with the concept of the soul as a supernatural entity. Nor does it have much to do with the concept of the soul as a natural part of our makeup as human organisms.

The article mixes categories in multiple ways without any self-awareness that this is being done.

[beam me up scottie]

32. "The fact that scientists can adjust morality with a magnet may be disconcerting to people...

The fact that scientists can adjust morality with a magnet may be disconcerting to people who view morality as a lofty and immutable human trait, says Joshua Greene, psychologist at Harvard University. But that view isn't accurate, he says.

***

Young and her colleagues used a technique called transcranial magnetic stimulation, or TMS, to temporarily decrease activity in an area of the brain called the right temporoparietal junction. It's near the surface of the brain, above and behind the right ear, and it seems to helps us decipher another person's beliefs.

Twenty volunteers got TMS before or during the time they were listening to stories like the one about Grace and the coffee. The stimulation caused people to pay less attention to Grace's intention and more attention to the outcome, Young says.

"If no harm was done, then subjects would judge as OK," she says, even if the story made it clear Grace was trying to poison her friend. That's the sort of moral judgment you often see in kids who are 3 or 4 years old, Young says.

Studies show that at this age, children will usually say a child who breaks five teacups accidentally is naughtier than a child who breaks one teacup on purpose, she says. That's probably because their brains are still developing the ability to understand the intentions of other people.

Fascinating research, bogus claims about the existence of souls.

Thanks for posting.

[okie]

33. Interesting research

But the idea that this is a knock against the idea of a soul is silly. Science doesn't really have anything to say on that subject.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. Of course it does. It's the capital of South Korea, silly! -nt

[heppcatt]

36. I think Buddhism proposed this over 2500 years ago.

[KittyWampus]

37. I was wondering how this would effect very well practiced Buddhist monks.

[mdmc]

38. k/r for the sig..

[Naturalist111]

39. Schrödinger's cat

Quantum theory. They can prove nothing about the soul, either for it or against the existence of it. As for morality. That is determined much by social settings and parents. There is however a part that you are born with or without. It is as real as instinct. Part of our DNA.

[Capt. America]

40. There is no ghost in the machine. I think of the "mind" as the software and the brain as the

"hardware", they are both susceptible to the effects of the physical world upon them (e.g. drugs, sleep deprivation, hammers, etc.). There is no immaterial soul "floating" around in the material body.

On a different topic, I have never heard a theologian give a good answer as to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

[The Straight Story]

41. Nothing 'exists' until humans discover it - black holes, dark matter, etc (nt)

[ibegurpard]

42. How do you disprove something that was never proveable in the first place?

[Edweird]

43. So I can sell my soul for rock and roll, and it's all good? COOL!

[Lagomorph]

44. Is this more "settled science"?

I have my doubts about the depth of knowledge the scientific community has on any subject, although the philosophers and theologians are kinda loopy, too.