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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:01 PM
Original message
Neo-Liberalism has overtaken liberal thought in Washington
If you are confused about what is going on in Washington, and how it is that the Democratic Party could be adopting policies that seem a close relative to the opposition parties' philosophies, it will help you to understand what "Neo-Liberalism" is.

This philosophy is what is joining the Republican and Democratic Parties and merging many of their policies. The major difference is, Democrats believe in more social programs than Republicans do, but leaders in *both* parties now indulge a core belief that almost all social programs are best left to Private industry to maintain. That is why we saw HCR become, not the European model, but "outsourced" to private interests. That is why we are seeing our educational system being sold to the highest bidder.

There is a difference between the way the two parties imagine their Neo-Liberal systems, with the Democratic party imagining that we can protect a kind of "social net", while giving it all into private hands to take care of. The trouble with this idea is that same problem with the Republican "version"... "HISTORY". We know from history that private interests will *never* protect the public interests. They are not Democratic institutions, and thus they can never really respond to the will of the people, no matter how many regulations we may think we can saddle them with.

Even worse, our trajectory is more toward the "libertarian" model, and we will end up with a psuedo-libertarian state.

Learn to recognize this philosophy and call it out, because if you are a traditional "progressive" or "liberal", this is what you are seeing destroy the values that have worked and we have held so dear for many years.

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism


Broadly speaking, neoliberalism seeks to transfer part of the control of the economy from public to the private sector, under the belief that it will produce a more efficient government and improve the economic health of the nation.

The definitive statement of the concrete policies advocated by neoliberalism is often taken to be John Williamson's "Washington Consensus," a list of policy proposals that appeared to have gained consensus approval among the Washington-based international economic organizations (like the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank).

Williamson's list included ten points:

Fiscal policy Governments should not run large deficits that have to be paid back by future citizens, and such deficits can only have a short term effect on the level of employment in the economy. Constant deficits will lead to higher inflation and lower productivity, and should be avoided. Deficits should only be used for occasional stabilization purposes.

Redirection of public spending from subsidies ("especially indiscriminate subsidies") and other wasteful spending toward broad-based provision of key pro-growth, pro-poor services like primary education, primary health care and infrastructure investment;
Tax reform– broadening the tax base and adopting moderate marginal tax rates to encourage innovation and efficiency;

Interest rates that are market determined and positive (but moderate) in real terms;
Floating exchange rates;

Trade liberalization – liberalization of imports, with particular emphasis on elimination of quantitative restrictions (licensing, etc.); any trade protection to be provided by law and relatively uniform tariffs; thus encouraging competition and long term growth

Liberalization of the "capital account" of the balance of payments, that is, allowing people the opportunity to invest funds overseas and allowing foreign funds to be invested in the home country
Privatization of state enterprises; Promoting market provision of goods and services which the government can not provide as effectively or efficeintly, such as telecommunications, where having many service providers promotes choice and competition.

Deregulation – abolition of regulations that impede market entry or restrict competition, except for those justified on safety, environmental and consumer protection grounds, and prudent oversight of financial institutions;

Legal security for property rights; and,
Financialization of capital.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
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galileoreloaded Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. The ghost of Menem, eh? n/t
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Former President of Argentina?
I had to look that up.

Also from Wikipedia:

Corruption charges
On June 7, 2001, Menem was arrested over an arms export scandal relating to exports to Ecuador and Croatia in 1991 and 1996, and remained under house arrest until November. He appeared before a judge in late August 2002 and denied all charges. It was hinted that Menem held more than USD $10 million in Swiss bank accounts. However, the Swiss banks and authorities denied these allegations.

Menem and his second wife Cecilia Bolocco, who had had a child since their marriage in 2001, moved to Chile. Argentine judicial authorities repeatedly requested Menem's extradition to face embezzlement charges, but this was rejected by the Chilean Supreme Court, as under Chilean law people cannot be extradited for questioning.

On December 22, 2004, he returned to Argentina after his arrest warrants were cancelled. He still faces charges of embezzlement and failing to declare illegal funds outside of Argentina.

In August 2008, it was announced Menem was under investigation for his role in the 1995 Río Tercero explosion, which is alleged to have been part of the arms scandal involving Croatia and Ecuador.<10>

In December 2008, the German multinational Siemens agreed to pay an $800 million fine to the United States government, and approximately €700 million to the German government, to settle allegations of bribery.<11> The settlement revealed that Menem received about US$2 million in bribes from Siemens in exchange for awarding the national ID card and passport production contract to Siemens; Menem denied the charges.<12>

References
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. fuck neo-liberalism. XO, RV, a flaming liberal from way back
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well, I'm certainly a neoliberal by that definition
But I'm afraid I don't agree with your assessment of the inevitable outcome, or even your characterization of the current situation.

For example, you mention 'we saw HCR become, not the European model, but "outsourced" to private interests.' Well, I'm European and I must point out that there are multiple European models rather than a single on as you seem to imagine. the system just signed into law most closely resembles that of the Netherlands, where people get healthcare coverage via private insurance (at an average of about $150/mo., IIRC) and the government funds about 60% of the risk pool via taxes. This system works OK - I lived there for 2 years and can attest to the fact that most people are happy with it, and that it is not especially difficult to deal with if you need to visit a doctor. It is more heavily regulated than here, with the government requiring insurance cos charge everyone the same premium in return for the security of receiving government funding and having a mandate in place.

Generally I am against price controls for economic reasons (which would require pages to explain, and on past experience wouldn't get read by anyone) but they have a place when it comes to essential services such as healthcare, since it is impossible for pure market forces to operate effectively in a case like that.

I do not think that the inevitable outcome of this is a libertarian model, at all. Libertarianism is a childishly naive economic philosophy. However, I don't expect to find very much agreement for my neoliberal views in the first place, so I won't waste my time or yours with a long argument for why I think that.
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Yes, Europe is not all the same, but they have much different constitutions
and most European countries have Parliments, which allow alternative parties to form and are much more effective at keeping corporate interests from dominating the political sphere.

They also have a history of progressive law that (at least currently) place more limits on corporate power and private power and privacy.

They have many other social programs that are government. So while Health care is a cooperative, they are still not near what we are moving toward. Currently we appear to be moving more toward a system like they have in Russia than one looking like the Netherlands.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. it's really quite a mixed bag
I appreciate your civil reply and would be happy to expand on some of the differences in more detail, though I'm actually trying to get some other stuff done this evening and will hold off a long essay. there's a whole bunch of stuff that is done better in Europe (or at least in some European countries) than in the US, and which we should learn from and try to apply...and the reverse holds true as well. I could give you a lot of examples of things that sound good from a distance but are not good for European citizens in practice even though the original intention was worthy. So it's a process of incremental improvement rather than any kind of one-size-fits-all economic philosophy.

I do think 'neoliberal' policies offer the best mix of freedom and prosperity if proper regulation is applied, and laws are made with the understanding that they need to be revisited and improved continually in response to how they actually work out rather than to conform with some abstract theory. I believe it was Truman who said (in response to a question about whether a particular policy would work': 'We'll try our policies...and if they don't work, we'll try something else.'
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. It's great to get it out "in the open" and discuss it
Edited on Mon Mar-29-10 10:59 PM by Go2Peace
I have a question for you. Who provides social education once everything is farmed out? One of the greatest problems that is now kicking our tails is the fact that the republicans convinced us that schools are only for learning math and arithmatic. A society needs to teach it's young civility and important values like sharing, caring, empathy, etc. And we need to learn and grow in our teaching. That will never happen in private schools.

I might agree more if we can find a better definition and strengthened institution of "Non-Profit" organizations. But they would have to be constitutionally limited and required to promote the public good, not just their own. Then I could see "private" institutions taking on this kind of work. But we are not near their now. And we don't have a chance of getting there if the corporation are our teachers and our fathers and mothers.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Well I think government should certainly pay for education
in general I'm in favor of government-run schools because few private entities have the resources or skills to run a whole school system even if they run an individual school well. I think US schools are a mess (overall - don't want to get into nitpicking over the complex topic of education). Now, I don't think that's specifically because they're publicly owned and operated, but more because nobody seems able to agree on what the standards should be. On the other hand I don't think there's anything wrong with for-profit education in principle if it consistently gets results.

A company in Sweden has been having surprising success in this area (and Sweden is one of the most 'socialist' countries in Europe in terms of having a very generous welfare state and so on (though they're still capitalist in economic terms). You can read about it here: http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=E1_TTVPVGQV - it's behind a paywall for subscribers but I think they'll give you a week of access for free if you register. A less detailed but still useful report is here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/3717744.stm You're right to say that part of the problem is Republicans' perception that school should be very limited. My understanding is that the Swedes don't freak out if students come home and express some idea that doesn't appear in the bible as seems to happen in a lot of the US.

So I don't think the private sector is The Answer to all problems; but in the right circumstances it can make a valuable contribution.
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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. That's the intellectual argument.
The easier reason is people with positions in private sector, have money to get people that want to give more social control to them elected.

Here is my question, and I challenge anyone to answer this.


Why is efficiency important?

Seriously answer this question.

Why is efficiency important?


It is about control, the rest is rationals for reasons for people to think they deserve that control.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. I'll answer that
Efficiency is important for the same reason that waste is bad. An inefficient approach to doing things means that less wealth is created and everybody is worse off.

I'm sure you've been to a restaurant or store some time where the staff were unhelpful or uninterested and food or service or whatever you were there to buy was mediocre. Well, you wouldn't want to go back there, right? And you're probably not alone. So word gets around, fewer customers come in, and the place starts losing money. If it loses so much money that it goes out of business, then the people who work there won't have jobs.

this isn't an argument for management to treat employees like slaves or anything. It's just as inefficient to make your staff so miserable that they run off to some other job as soon as they get the chance, or get sick due to stress in the workplace, or panic whenever a customer has a problem. A well-run organization (whether it's government, business, nonprofit or whatever) is buildt on the idea of achieving efficiency via cooperation. That way the customer wins, the employees win, and the owners or taxpayers or other stakeholders win.

It's not the case that in order for someone to win someone else necessarily has to lose. an organization run with that attitude is going to have a lot of problems.
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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Your analogies.
Edited on Mon Mar-29-10 10:42 PM by RandomThoughts
They equate quality of food having to do with efficiency, In almost every situation, efficiency gets rid of quality.

Your argument says the staff was unhelpful or uninterested. Where does efficiency create a better work environment for the staff to be helpful and interested? Efficiency would create more work for staff, or less pay. Again the analogy does not fit.



Well ran organization, and efficiency are not the same thing. Efficiency is getting the most out of what resources are there.


In most views, and the view of the money first private sector, an efficient restaurant would have the most customers buying the highest margin goods, at the lowest possible overhead and labor. If that was done by having workers afraid of getting fired if they did not smile, then that would be more efficient. If it was done by miss labeling food, if not noticed, that would be more efficient. If the garbage was dumped illegally in a back alley, that would be more efficient.


Efficiency has one goal, to be more profitable then some other group. Or to do more with less goods or services. So the concept is that the private sector is better then government, because we have been told they are more efficient by competition, when the competition is actually limited. So I could even say the only way to even know if private sector is more efficient would be to have a public sector running system, then calculate all the cost to all of society, not just the cost of running the one business. Is it more efficient when a business lays off workers?

But back to the concept of efficiency

The problem right now is production is higher then demand, so more efficient systems only help those that run the better system, not society, it is race to the bottom. A less efficient system with more vacations, and shorter hours with same pay, would actually be better for society, since demand would go up, and production down.

Efficiency is getting the most out of what you have. Sound great, unless the problem is that you already have to much of something. Production. So areas have to be expanded like health care and education and even leisure time activities to fill the gap and employee people. We need a less efficient society.

Been that way for a few decades, when production went higher then demand, and the entire economic engine of capitalism had to switch from trying to supply for more demand then production, to creating demand by designing obsolescence into products, creation of scarcity with monopoly control, and other race to the bottom hardships.



The thing is the drive to efficiency also leads to economics of scale, and eventually leads to monopolies. And the whole argument against government inefficiency is they have no competition or need to be efficient. And yet the drive to efficiency can create monopolies which are far less efficient anyway. So even the argument that the private sector is more efficient is wrong, since without government breaking them up, they become predators that stop competition by buying up any group that could compete with them.
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. a good example of efficiency is US Post office
Edited on Mon Mar-29-10 10:49 PM by Go2Peace
Despite the BS being bandied about. The cheapest letter rate of the competitors is $13. And the US post delivers more places than any of them, and still for less than a dollar. How can people argue with that?

But give it 10 more years and it will be gutted and unsupported and criticized and defeated until it runs like a corporation and then they will come back and say "look at that" Government mail *never* works.

Just like our schools... no, they never worked, even though that is a flat out lie. They were never perfect but for a long time a very large system gave us a very good quality of education. It could have become better with technology and efficiency, but instead it has been hammered and attacked and politicized until it can then be drowned.

Private schools will look attractive for a while, but they are not a new concept, they are our regressive history. They eventually end up the same, good schools for the rich and lousy schools for the rest of us. We have been there and done that many times in history.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. The post office is not efficient as a "business model" at this point
It is, however, very efficient as a public service. The question then is whether or not it is a service with enough public benefit that we should subsidize it. And IMO the answer to that question is definitely yes, for the time being. I think eventually we will get to the point where just about everyone in the country knows how to use a computer and has access to e-mail. But for now there's still enough of a population that doesn't that the postal system is still valuable.
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. you get it!
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #24
35. okay your answer was much better than mine
but mine was more efficient, using less words and pixels.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
41. Sorry I didn't spot this yesterday
I mostly agree with you, and you certainly offered a more rounded picture than my superficial example. But I think you're a little too focused in one direction.

"Efficiency is getting the most out of what you have. Sound great, unless the problem is that you already have to much of something. Production. So areas have to be expanded like health care and education and even leisure time activities to fill the gap and employee people. We need a less efficient society."

Wait, wait, stop. If you devote too many resources to industrial production at the expense of things like a healthy and well-educated population (and by implication, workforce) then you're using your national resources inefficiently. I mentioned in another post that it would be inefficient for a business to focus only on output and ignore safety, because the cost of an avoidable accident would exceed that of maintaining compliance with safety standards.

Same thing with healthcare - just because it's a cost doesn't make it inefficient. If you skimp on it and invest your resources elsewhere you might get a short-term boost to GDP but you'd be just storing up trouble because an epidemic of poor health later on will reduce the capability of the workforce and drive up the cost of labor while reducing demand (because the sick people aren't working and making money to buy other goods and services). Same, too, with education - if you don't subsidize it then later on you'll have an uneducated workforce which lacks the skills to adapt to technological or environmental change, thereby lowering your potential output. As long as the benefits of a healthy and well-educated population exceed the costs of treatment and schooling (which is usually the case) then spending money on those things is an efficient use of resources.

"The thing is the drive to efficiency also leads to economics of scale, and eventually leads to monopolies. And the whole argument against government inefficiency is they have no competition or need to be efficient. And yet the drive to efficiency can create monopolies which are far less efficient anyway. So even the argument that the private sector is more efficient is wrong, since without government breaking them up, they become predators that stop competition by buying up any group that could compete with them."

Almost, but not quite. Monopolies are generally bad. There are exceptions, but as you say monopolies have no competitors and therefore no incentive to improve; economists say that they devolve into rent-seeking, whereby they end up demanding far more from people than they actually need, simply because they can. It's true in the private sector (which is why we have antitrust laws) and its usually true in the public sector too.

for example, take phone companies. Back when a phone meant a landline, the first thing you did on moving into a new home was to get in touch with the phone company and have them hook up your service. I've lived in countries where phone service was provided by the private sector, with several companies competing, and in countries where where it was a public monopoly (more than 1 country in each case - sometimes the same country at different times). I vastly preferred dealing with a privately owned telephone company. You'd call or walk into their office, give them your address, and there'd be an engineer there the next day to hook you up because they wanted your business. In places with a single state phone company, it could take a week, or longer.

The last such experience was around the year 2000, when I was living in the Netherlands and the phone service was provided by KPN, then a state monopoly. 10 goddam days to hook up a phone line - in Amsterdam, the capital city! And this is a rich, modern country. I actually ended up buying a cellphone which I didn't really want just to be contactable. It got worse - I wanted ADSL service (which is piggybacked onto the landline) so I could have fast internet for work - dialup is slooow, and over there even local calls were metered by the minute. Can I get ADSL please? No, you have to wait 3 months. Why? Because you haven't paid your phone bill yet, so we don't know if you're a good customer or not, and we bill our customers quarterly (which is itself annoying - I'd rather smallish monthly bills than huge quarterly ones, so I can adjust my phone habits if I notice my bills are too high). Well, I said, I really need this. Let me pre-pay or give some kind of deposit. Sorry, no, we don't do that. You just have to wait 3 months.

Think this over. Here am I, offering to pay a decent chunk of money (I think I offered about $500) in advance for a service I need, but the monopoly phone company can't be bothered. So instead I have to wait 3 months doing all my internet stuff over a slow modem and racking up charges because it takes so long to download everything, not to mention having to buy a modem that I only used for 3 months. That's hopelessly inefficient - not because it was run by the government, especially, but because it was a monopoly.

Where I think you're going wrong is in arguing that since private companies would establish a monopoly if they could, the private sector is no better than the government. But 'would establish a monopoly if they could' is not the same as having a monopoly. In the meantime, most companies do have competitors, and the competition forces them to be more responsive to the needs of their customers, who have the choice of going elsewhere. So while the private companies' dream may be to achieve a monopoly and bleed their customers dry, the actual situation doesn't allow them to do that. The need to compete works in favor of the consumer who is buying their products or services.

Isn't it bad that they still dream of a monopoly? No, not really. As I mentioned, we have antitrust laws for those situations. George Bush publicly stated he dreamed of being a dictator, but fortunately our laws prevented him from realizing that dream even though he did enough damage just by being president. I dream of robbing banks from time to time, but your money is safe because the risks of pursuing that dream vastly outweigh the likely rewards and I'm not up for the possibility of getting shot or sent to jail.

My point is that monopolies are not inevitable, and competition itself is a limiting factor on the ability to establish one.

Backing up to one other point you made...
"Been that way for a few decades, when production went higher then demand, and the entire economic engine of capitalism had to switch from trying to supply for more demand then production, to creating demand by designing obsolescence into products, creation of scarcity with monopoly control, and other race to the bottom hardships."

I think this is a bit confused - you argue that capitalism results in oversupply and the attempt to manufacture demand, but at the same time you accuse it of attempting to create undersupply, which seems contradictory. Trying to manufacture demand is not a bad thing in and of itself. It you come up with a new invention (rather than an incremental improvement to some existing thing) then in order to profit from it you have to manufacture some demand, by the basic method of running around telling people of your terrific new invention and suggesting reasons they might want to use it, and give you money.

This happens all the time. When transistors were invented they were first considered rather pointless, since the same effect was achievable with tube valves. Later people realized that the much smaller size of transistors offered an advantage, and now there's about a billion of them in the computer you're using to read this. Similarly, lasers are ubiquitous in consumer and industrial devices now, but at the time of their invention they seemed like a solution in search of a problem. In the US right now, various companies that make trains and other equipment for high speed rail transit are trying to create demand by pointing out how much better - ie, more efficient - they are than certain other forms of transportation. This includes pointing out various environmental benefits of trains, which people didn't care that much about in the past (and about which many people are skeptical about).

My overall point is that efficiency aims for an increase in productivity, but that productivity is not limited to industrial output - it can also take the form of improving the education level of the population or its overall health, or finding new ways to move people and goods around while consuming less fuel and creating less pollution than existing methods. As productivity increases, so does the overall size of the economy, which results in an increase in demand (because now now surplus resources are available and people who have them wish to exchange them for other things they don't have). And as demand increases, people looks for ways to profit by supplying it, which is what creates jobs.
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. How long have you lived in the US? You are arguing for our "old" system
You may not know that. Most immigrants only know the US they live in now. I say this as someone who is very involved with an immigrant population. They have no historical "memory". The US was never laissez faire. We were just what you were imagining and it was one of the components that gave us a fairly vibrant economy.

There is a big difference between a well regulated system with components of social programs dealing with selective programs to deal with monopolies and "Neo_liberalism". You are ***not*** a neo-liberal. Maybe it seems like you are radically "pro-market" because your reference is Europe, where "right wing" and "free market" ideologies are quite different than the ones espoused and being advocated for in the US.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. that's a bad answer
It depends on how efficiency is defined too. How is "waste" defined? Is it wasteful to spend money on safety? It looks that way in an annual report. But it does not look that way if you look beyond profit and loss and put a value on human life and health. Wealth is created in a number of ways. So this business of "less wealth is created" does not mean that "everybody is worse off."

Because if wealth is measured in dollars with a GDP that leaves a lot of things out. Things like free time that are not typically included in a measure of wealth.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Poor safety is a false economy because of the risk it creates
You are quite right that I'm not defining things in detail, but I'm not up for doing a long essay this evening. I certainly don't think that just because something is a cost item (like safety or insurance) that it is wasteful. It's appropriate for any organization to examine its costs and reduce ones that are wasteful, of course. Executive jets spring to mind.

Workplace safety has a cost, but generally its much lower than the cost and liability that results if an avoidable accident occurs. You have to balance things out; a hard hat may be a very necessary cost, and raise efficiency by increasing safety, but a suit of armor for everyone would probably be overkill.

Economists do think about things other than just $$$. You might like to look into John Stuart Mill and his intellectual heirs.
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. anig, if efficiency begat prosperity we would all be much wealthier now
That doesn't work. We are ***far*** more productive, per capita, than we were 30 years ago, and yet prosperity is failing. By your theory it should be doing the opposite. I think the evidence does not back up your theory.

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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. to be fair, that is a different question
We all are much wealthier now than we were 30 years ago. The total sum of wealth and income is way up. However, because so much more of it is going into the pockets of the top 10% that the bottom 50% is not sharing in the gains. But distribution of the proceeds is a different question than efficiency.

My larger philosophical question about the over-riding value of efficiency is a question whether life is about producing as much as you can and consuming as much as you can. It's not that I am always against efficiency or in favor of inefficiency, the question is whether people should make themselves miserable (or really have others make them miserable) in the name of efficiency. A group of guys who have been through basic training are much more efficient than a group of guys who have spent the equivalent time going fishing and watching the NCAA tournament. But which group is enjoying their life? Do we want life to be more like boot camp because that increases efficiency? I say no.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. We *are* all much wealthier now
In absolute terms, we are much better off than we were 30 years ago, and so is the world as a whole.

What you're worrying about - correctly, but it's not the whole picture - is that relative prosperity has fallen for the majority of people, which is to say that economic inequality has increased in our society. While I expect relative prosperity to fluctuate naturally to some degree, I agree with you that the degree to which it has done so over this period is a bad thing, and that it has negative long-term consequences.

In short, we are significantly better off overall than we were 30 years ago, but the fruits of that progress have not been evenly distributed and the benefits have accrued disproportionately to the richest members of society. I regard this as economically inefficient because it limits our potential future growth.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Who's this 'we?' You got a mouse in your pocket?
Edited on Tue Mar-30-10 11:53 AM by laughingliberal
My 'we' is the working class and I don't give a damn how much the 'overall' picture has 'improved.' There is no one denying that the working and middle classes have seen their incomes and situation decline over the past 30 years. Sorry, I remember a time when wages kept up with the cost of living and they didn't use little tricks like CPI's that leave out the cost of shelter and transportation, and energy to try to 'prove' we haven't really fallen behind when we all know damned well we have.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. The whole population, including the working class
I've already pointed up the difference between absolute and relative prosperity and acknowledged the importance of the latter.

Let's revisit the former and look at a few examples of things that are substantially better than they were 30 years ago, for everyone, including you and whatever class you identify with.

a. The internet. Remember the way the internet was in 1980? Oh, wait...it didn't exist for anyone except defense researchers and a few technology-oriented university campuses. The Internet is an outstanding example of what can be achieved by both public and private investment.

b. Pollution. we are pouring vastly less gunk into the environment than used to be the case. Back in 1980 there was a permanent smog cloud hanging over Los Angeles. I could go on at length about this.

c. Medicine. No we have not eliminated cancer and we are having a problem with the rising costs of medical treatment. On the other hand, A lot of diseases are treatable or curable today which weren't in 1980. If you got AIDS in 1980 your only hope was that you'd get a nice funeral.

d. Computers. Whatever computer you're using to read this is more powerful than the world's fastest supercomputer that existed in 1980...by a factor of 10 at the very least. Mine (which I could replace for about $500 if it blew up, so it's not cutting-edge) is about 30 times more powerful than anything that existed in 1980. My cellphone - which is pretty recent - has more computing power than all the computers in my high school put together. Damn.

e. Malnutrition. there are actually more malnourished people in the world now than there were in 1980. This is bad...BUT the world population has grown by nearly 50% in that time. The percentage of people who are malnourished has fallen by about 50%. We (as in humanity as a whole) are expanding the food supply about twice as fast as demand.

f. Life expectancy. Just in the US, life expectancy has risen from 73 to 78 over the last 30 years. In other words, someone born today can expect to live 5 years longer than someone who was born in 1980. For the world as a whole, life expectancy has improved even more, from 62.6 to 69.

I could go on...and on.

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okie Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. A few points
In what sense do cell phones, better computers, and the internet mean our lives are better? We can't just accept that uncritically. Think of all the unpaid work people have to do now thanks to these technologies. At least textile workers weren't forced to bring the loom home with them. And there are plenty of people who would argue that the internet has made the world a lonelier, more alienating place. I think there's some merit to that.

As for pollution, sure the skies in LA are clearer, but has anything changed? Certainly not. We just shipped our dirtiest business overseas.
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Yep, agri is losing me
He seems to be moving to bolstering his arguments with dogma instead of facts. And here I thought we were having a good conversation.
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. Sorry, have to call you on the "we are wealthier" statement.
Edited on Tue Mar-30-10 08:45 PM by Go2Peace
The average household income is only marginally higher when adjusted for inflation (if that is still true, it may have changed this year). And that has come at a cost of two laborers in every house where there used to be only one. We have more material goods than we used to, but in terms of money left over after necessities the average family has lost a lot of ground.

Now that is in the US. Now 2cd world countries have greatly increased their wealth, but even that fact is marred by huge gaps and tradeoffs
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. if you were more efficient
you would have some long essays already in the can :P

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/74
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Hehehe!
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. The irony is, this is precisely why I was so dead set against Clinton, because I KNEW she
was a neoliberal.

Silly me.
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Me too
I feel like the product I was sold wasnt as advertised now.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. And precisely why I was for her.
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Grand Taurean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I never saw her as a neoliberal.
Nor was Bill, but political circumstances were such where much deal cutting had to be done.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. In other words..
... more of the same bullshit that has our economy on its knees. Great.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. K&R
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
7. Pure neoliberalism is no better or worse than pure socialism.
Any successful economy will have the appropriate blend of public and private distribution.
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. I doubt you would get an argument from traditional progressives
"Socialism" has never been the aim of traditional liberal or progressive thinkers. The only ones that make that case are the Republicans and Democrats who have fallen for their propoganda. Certainly there is more interest in "socialism" these days, but that is more a reaction to the slide to the right than a reflection of liberal thought in America.
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Newest Reality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
13. Call me whatever you want,
but if you extrapolate on past and current trends it is not at all far-fetched to see where this is heading. It takes no real stretch of the imagination to see a dystopian future forming already -- well, depending on your definition of dystopia.

While the Right wings its way through a miasma of clearly obsolete, (by corporate standards) political, cultural and World views, they become nothing more than enablers in a strange bedfellows way. It is because the corporate monoculture and military/industrial state are miles ahead of them both technologically and psychologically. How can they even begin to understand the social engineering that they so willingly absorb and transmit?

I'm just grabbing popcorn and watching the show. What could be done to stop this inexorable path to a technocratic Fascism that is dark and troubling to say the least? Who is going to disconnect from the Simulator and risk social and financial standings in the process? In a generation or two the results may be seen as normal, ordinary life and that is what is frightening. Instead of a future of greater freedom and equal distribution, we will most likely see nothing more than a futuristic Serfdom with a deeply entrenched owner-class and a hopelessly encapsulated and exploited mass of human cattle. The technology and the proportions are the key here and that is why it is not only doable, but seemingly inevitable.

I don't know. I have considered the possibility that this kind of outcome may just go hand-in-hand with large, complex, highly technological societies. Perhaps a repressive cocktail of Orwell and Huxley are what we get for all the gadgets and humongous organizations, or Borg as I like to call that kind of collective. It seems to represent a life out of balance where the most superficial aspects of existence take precedence over all else. In that case the price of admission may be spiritually high, but rest assured it can be defrayed and left for future generations to pay and pay and pay.

I grab my popcorn in my nest of poverty and realize that, most likely, nothing can or will be done about this slide into a bifurcated world of inverted tyranny. People are addicted to the brass ring that leads them inexorably to an inescapable submission in disguise. They only have to imagine or think they are free and religiously partake of the baubles and shiny things offered in return for compliance. I just wonder, when this is done, if they will ever realize, (albeit too late) what they traded for all the answers to nothing.
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. It will be more intense here, because we are stuck in a two party system
Edited on Mon Mar-29-10 09:43 PM by Go2Peace
Parliments, while older, are evolutionarily superior. Democracy must evolve and find better mechanisms to combat tyranny. The European model has it's problems, but it does allow smaller groups to get in and muck up the machine.

On the other hand, we have a population, that once they understand what is being done to them can be a powderkeg. But the big question seems to me to be: Will they "dumb down" everyone with propaganda before a significant movement can form? That seems to already be reflected with many even on this site.

It certainly is an interesting phenominon to observe. 15 years ago I would never have believed that people could be so well manipulated. And that is occurring on both sides of the American Political spectrum, and even Politicians seem susceptable. Quite interesting, if only one could always watch it from afar ;)
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. They won't realize, because they will be presented with an appealing array of scapegoats to have at
Edited on Mon Mar-29-10 10:18 PM by tom_paine
Sigh, does history ever change?

And I sure wouldn't want to hbe the 1 in 10 Oath Keepers who says to the other 9 if and when the "Relocation Camps" (to be filled with Lib'ruls and Ay-rabs and other Enemies of the Teabaggers) start up, "Say, didn't we form the Oath Keepers to swear wouldn't do this?"

"That was for Real Americans, not Lib'ruls and Ay-rabs!" is the best reply they can hope for. A beating or perhaps, a trip to the "Liberal Relocation Camps" for themselves is what they'll more likely get.

But who can really predict the details of the future? We just see where it is going, not exactly what the Corporate Monculture (I like that term) has in store for their Final Solution.

Also, the 21st Century American Corporatists might wind up playing second-banana (still quite profitably) to the demons they have unleashed in the National Soul, as is what happened to the German Industrialists in the 1930s.

So, as you get out your popcorn, remember THIS is one of the big things to watch...will the American Corporatists lose control like the German Industrialists did. That is the case to be concerned about "Relocation Camps".

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
16. Don't they call themselves New Democrats?
Well, I'm an Old Democrat and as long as I'm alive I will fight this pull to the right.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Me too.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. You and me both Cleita!
:toast:
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. Old Democrat, here, too.
I must confess I do not understand all the complexities of this but what I do understand is that I have not seen one formerly public service which has now been privatized which became less expensive to the people or provided them with better service. All the promises of privatization producing competition and, thereby, driving the costs down and the quality up have proven false. What I see is the more we turned anything over to private interests the more expensive and less responsive to actual needs it became.

I can't imagine where we will be if we go much further to the right.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
20. "Neo-Liberalism" = Corporatism with a kind face.
It's the ruling ideology of our corporate masters. Propaganda about "The End Of History" and Neo-Liberalism being the "One True Way" to run a society has been shoved down our throats so much that few can even convince of anything different. Our selfish, atomized, consumerist culture is equated as "Human Nature" and any criticism of Neo-Liberalism is dismissed as "against human nature".
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
39. DLC - looks, walks, quacks like a duck
DLC = traitorous rat bastards!
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
42. K & R & Vote The Bums Out! (nt)
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
44. Glad to see this-people need to understand what is really going on in Washington DC. nt
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