Those who underestimate the enemy...

[nadinbrzezinski]

Yep, we have plenty of folks round these parts laughing at the militias. Yes, they look to be out of shape, damn their drills fit far more in a Hollywood set than oh the real world... and I could go on. Yet all of you are making a huge mistake by under estimating the danger these guys pose.

This is not a laughing matter. And while some of the militias are scarier than others, they all should be a signal to you that things are not well. So go ahead and laugh... the survivors, if we ever go into the actual ugliness these guys dream about (and boy did their predecessors dream about this too, way back in the way back machine), none of you will be laughing. You should realize the ones that are actually scary are those who have gotten trained by uncle Sam, and know better. They are the potential leaders and no, there are mostly no mug shots of them, or for that matter photos... and yes when they should play soldier, they actually have a clue of what they are doing.

realize civil wars are not started by a majority, but a very disenfranchised MINORITY that feels left out of the political arena... yes they have crossed from the ballot box to the bullet box.

So go ahead and keep chortling and laughing. This is no laughing matter, but if it makes you feel safer, I guess it is ok.

Me, I know this has exploded, and whether it is the White identity movement, or others they are just growing ... so go ahead and laugh...

[NeedleCast]

1. You just never get tired of predicting the end of civilizaton, do you?

There's no "feel safer" to it, because there's nothing to fear in the first place.

[my2sense]

2. +1

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. I disagree, it is a laughing matter.

The militias are no threat to me, and it will only backfire.

[Donnachaidh]

4. it's like the mailman at the house being confronted by the big barking dog

It's not the barkers that you have to concern yourself with. It's the nasty little bastard that comes flying around from the back, silent as a tomb, that gets to sink it's teeth into your leg before you even notice he's close.

Case in point -- Timothy McVeigh. No one saw him coming, either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Exactly, and what did he have?

A fine training given to him by uncle sam.

These guys are barking, but hell, the lone wolves or those organizing into cells who actually have a clue about OpSec scare me.

[NeedleCast]

7. Everything scares you

[cali]

62. she loves to whip up fear and hysteria

attention seeking behavior and disgusting.

[walldude]

6. Sorry, can't do it. Can't live in fear.

If I were afraid of everything everyone told me I should be I would never leave home.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Did I tell you to live in Fear? No

Knowledge is not fear...

But those laughing their asses off, well that is a CLASSIC fear reaction.

[walldude]

22. Well you didn't actually say it but that seemed to be the point

of your post.
And while some of the militias are scarier than others, they all should be a signal to you that things are not well.

Really, things are not well. But don't be afraid just be informed? That's what this post meant? Could have fooled me.

[BrklynLiberal]

9. Ignore them at our own peril....

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”

[Edweird]

10. Yes, I will continue to laugh. Not that I need your permission. Just an FYI.

Guess what. LOTS of people have 'been trained by Uncle Sam' - not just militant RW jerkoffs.

Yes, the temperature is rising, but cowardice is not the solution. Their bullying will own you if you allow it. I do not. I am perfectly capable of standing my ground and holding my own. I will not initiate conflict, but I also refuse to let others dictate my life through intimidation.

The FBI seems to have a handle on things.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Did I tell you to be afraid?

And laughter is a classic fear reaction. But I am sure you knew that.

Oh what is the other thing that applies here? KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.

[Edweird]

21. Clarification for you: I will continue to mock and ridicule them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Go ahead do that

:banhead:

[Bonhomme Richard]

12. What I am worried about is if the militia's join up with re-enacters.

Civil War re-enacters partnering with the right wing militia could spell doom.

Truth is, I do take the militia seriously.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Many reenactors are actually part of this movement

and not just civil war.

And thank you for taking them seriously.

Apparently taking them seriously is fear... I don't know where, or what book...

:hi:

[eleny]

13. Given how Timothy McVeigh emerged it certainly isn't funny on the whole

But I had to pause the other night when Mike Malloy pointed out how these guys think that they're an actual army that could wage effective combat. He asserted that when they came face to face with the might of the Army, they'd soil their pants. There really isn't any parity of organization and weaponry.

To your point, McVeigh was more than effective given his training. But he was caught and justice was served. It was a horrible deed but it went no further because the power and talent of our law enforcement agencies prevailed. The same could be said about the blind sheik and his accomplice.

So I'm keeping things in perspective.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. The true perspective, which Mike misses too

is that these guys will not end up fighting a stand up fight with the army if we come to that point.

That is not the nature of modern civil wars.

Now McVeigh is closer to your true model.

[eleny]

29. Sure, the Hutaree were planning to use IEDs and such

But the public picture that most people are reacting to are the training videos where the group is practicing combat. Grown up war games. And I believe that this is what Malloy was commenting on. I doubt he's forgotten or misses the point of the possibility of McVeigh-like attacks.

On the one hand these people are deadly. On the other hand they're efforts are somewhat laughable. All their bullets, guns and rifles are no match. On yet another hand, if they were my neighbors I wouldn't be laughing I'd be moving.

Your sober view is much appreciated.

[unblock]

16. agreed -- these are also the ones stupid enough to get caught. there are others.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. I wonder how your 'no laughing' concept would have gone over

with, oh, let's say Charlie 'let's mock Hitler' Chaplin, or any of the others who make jokes right in der Fhurer's face for the duration of the Reich? Ya think they were doing that to feel safer? Were they 'chortling'?

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Actually what he was doing

was a tad different... not what most around these parts are doing.

Moreover, was he in Germany?

[Bluenorthwest]

63. Chaplin was British, of course.

And the threat was very real for them.
Making fun of the enemy is a time honored tool that gives resolve to us and weakens them. Those who are not really in the fight might not need it, and might be better off playing with their worry beads and saying novenas.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. He was also in the US when that was produced

but I am sure you knew that.

Once again, if you want to laugh, which is a good reaction I suppose, do so as long as you realize some of these yahoos are actually dangerous.

Oh and that movie was done in the 1930s, when not just Chaplin thought the Nazis were funny.

[starroute]

27. The people who thought Hitler was a clown in the 20's *were* part of the problem

Using humor to stand up to powerful oppressors is one thing.

Laughing contemptuously at people you think will never threaten you -- rather than taking them seriously enough to stop them before they get into power -- is a very different matter.

[BeHereNow]

31. Couldn't agree more. n/t

bhn

[calimary]

52. Well put.

Laugh to keep your perspective, because some of them are world-class buffoons, but don't take your eyes off the ball. And do not shrug them off or ignore them. We underestimate them at our peril.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Exactly... +100

[MineralMan]

18. Well, since I recently posted such a thread, I'm guessing that

you read that thread.

I will continue to laugh out loud at the phony numbskulls who do this militia shtick. When one of the most toxic of the militias surrenders to law enforcement without resistance and then begs for a public defender, it can only be laughable.

Reward the militia idiots with derision and ridicule, and heap it high. It worked for schoolyard bullies. It will work for these morons, too.

[DevonRex]

19. It is a serious matter. But I make fun of militias to show my contempt

for them, not to make myself feel safer.

Having grown up in a RW family, a gun-loving, gun-toting family, a family of current teabaggers and even worse, I take them dead seriously. They want to pretend they're in a John Wayne movie and that life is like the Old West. They don't understand the Constitution. They are pro-death penalty even though they despise the government.

In short, they're immature, ignorant people who are armed to the teeth. It is their ignorance that I laugh at; it is their proclivity towards violence that I take seriously because they have the means to carry out that violence.

I will recommend your post because you're right. Some of us don't take them seriously enough.

[tom_paine]

20. They'll disappear when the Bushpublicans get back in command.

Back to dreaming of being Camp Guards (with full insurance and dental!) when all the Evil Lib'ruls are rounded up into camps.

I don't know if I've mentioned this to you before, but really all thatis left to ask about our future is whether the American Corporatists will lose control to the demons they've awakened in the National Soul and wind up playing second fiddle to them, just as the German Industrialists lost control of the demons they'd raised in 1930s Germany. (though still quite profitably for themselves even as second-bananas to the Nazis)

It is also important to remember that while all the Nazi Leaders were hung, the German Industrialists who funded them did some jail time and then were quietly pardoned in the 1950s.

[ShortnFiery]

25. Disappear when the GOP take back control? Like Hell!

They'll be helping to round up you and me = Progressives. They will also be first in line to play the role of our new Secret Police Forces for the new TIPS programs. :scared:

[walldude]

35. Please tell me this is sarcasm or a joke...

for 6 years of Bush's term Du was awash in posts like "they are building concentration camps to round up liberals" and, "they are preparing us for a police state". The same freaking paranoid rantings we are hearing from the tea baggers now. They didn't come true then and they won't come true now.

[ShortnFiery]

38. Yes, it's a little tongue in cheek. But don't forget we almost had the TIPS program

so we must always stay vigilant. ;)

[walldude]

42. Yeah... sucks when you can't trust you neighbor..

Glad to hear it was TIC some of the paranoia here is making me.... um... paranoid :rofl:

[ShortnFiery]

43. Yes, I'm a left leaning goof ball, but not quite that far gone ... hopefully never.

My husband reels me back in when I speculate too much. I'm blessed with Mr. Analytical Rationality for a spouse. :P

[NeedleCast]

41. Already happened Once

During the Clinton years, militias were on the rise. They faded almost instantly back into obscurity when Bush 2.0 took over. Now, they're back again.

There's a pattern.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Oh, you're wrong. Laughter is a VERY powerful weapon.

I refuse to let these goofballs in their XXL fatigues intimidate me.

[ShortnFiery]

30. Their XXL Cammie Jammies doesn't intimidate me, but some of their ARSENALS do.

[BeHereNow]

28. I, for one, am NOT laughing at all!

I think these people are extremely dangerous and made more so
by people like Palin and Beck.

I was THRILLED when I read that Apple had boycotted Fox for Beck's hate speech.
We need more big moneid corporations to get the message that we, the people,
will not tolerate the use of "public" airwaves to advocate violence.

We should all send letters of appreciation and recognition to Apple for
their boycott of Fox.

This is not a laughing matter at all to me.

These people are dangerous and poised to strike when their great leaders
on the hate talk platform tell them to.

Democracy Now had an excellent interview today with
Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center-
I highly recommend people listen to it.
He calls out the hate talkers, like Beck and Palin
as well as the networks who allow them a forum.
Listen/Watch here:
http:www.democracynow.org/2010/3/30/rage_on_the_right_christian_militia

He is not laughing either.

BHN

[EC]

32. So what is it you are suggesting?

That we validate them by being terrorized? That we learn our lesson and never elect a Democrat again, or at the very least never put a black man in the highest seat again?


We know they are dangerous, but the ridicule is deserved...if they are nutty enough to still believe in the "race war" or "Christian war" that they've been saying will happen for the last 50 years or so well they should be laughed at...

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Knowledge does not mean you are terrorized

now if you believe understanding the danger leads to fear, by all means, keep laughing.

[anigbrowl]

33. There are lots of people who are fully aware of the potential threat too

It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time...or in this case, to be aware of the historical parallels and potential threats of violently-inclined wannabe revolutionaries, while also mocking the pathetic nature of their posturing.

I agree with you 100% that this sort of extrapolitical (ie paramilitary) activity is evidence of a dangerous trend, and see many similarities to the early stages of totalitarian regimes elsewhere. But I don't think that mockery of their visible shortcomings equates to naivete. Although you make legitimate points, you do so in such a condescending manner that you're alienating your own target audience...though doubtless others would accuse me of the same on various topics, and sometimes they'd be right. "all of you are making a huge mistake..." kind of suggests you believe yourself to be the only person with any insight into the matter, which is probably not the impression you intended to make.

[Capitalocracy]

34. I'm taking it very seriously but I'm also laughing

you can do both

I'm living in South America right now, so I feel a little more familiar with what can happen to a society when McCarthyism gets out of hand and democracy is destroyed when it no longer serves the interest of those who are really in power... military dictatorships are common throughout history here, and if you look at Honduras, the story obviously hasn't ended. The threat of a widespread rise of fascism in various hotspots throughout the world, including the U.S., is very real today. But we can still laugh at these guys, come on, they're funny.

[CommonSensePLZ]

37. They underestimate US

Those right wing jackasses are in for a surprise if they think they have the whole market on militias, weaponry and such, you can see that by how they overlook a major detail:

Liberals don't try to take guns out of people's hands, we try to put common sense restrictions on guns. Why? Because not only do we understand the rational of having them, BUT WE HAVE GUNS AS WELL.

You know what else? Their have been people on the left who have been militarily trained as well, in fact throughout history it has been people on the left who have organized to fight for what they believe in.

Also, they really had better hope they win, cause if they keep up what they're doing and get themselves caught up in another Waco (or worse) I'll bet the people will be far more willing to go along with restricting the ease by which someone can attain a gun and things like registering militias, because they're not thinking of what war means, these jackasses are DELUSIONAL. War isn't nice to anybody, homes are destroyed, families pulled apart, loved ones killed, and what they'll like least MARKETS GO DOWN AND FORTUNES ARE LOST.

They can wave all the flags they want, if they start arbitrary violence against their nation they are NOT patriots, they're traitors, and they're crazy if these cowardly, racist fools think people are just going to let them get away with what they're doing.

[MineralMan]

39. +10

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. They are underestimating more than just us

but that does not mean that they are in for a surprise...

You see both sides are... for damn different reasons.

[Prism]

40. Bush used Islam, we use militias

The point is the same - fear as a distracting, controlling tactic while those with all the power and money continue merrily on their way.

No, thank you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. And who the hell told you to be afraid?

Oh wait, if we don't laugh we must be afraid. Realize LAUGHTER and making fun are classic fear reactions.

What do they say, knowledge is power...

Now if you decide to make fun while understanding where they come from that is another story.

[Prism]

46. I don't laugh at them

Frankly, I'm dead tired of hearing about them. The people doing the laughing and the breathless posts every time a right-wing type sneezes typically don't know very much about rural American cultural. Instead, everything is reduced to cartoonish characterizations, stereotypes, and caricatures, the basic templates of the Other.

And hey, it's human nature that insecure people will always need an Other with which to define themselves. Many Democrats define themselves not on liberal values or liberal policies or greater tolerance and open-mindedness, but on the firm fact that they are against this right-wing Other construct.

That's how we end up with scores of people who will go on and on and on about tea-baggers, but never hesitate to denigrate women's isues, LGBT equality, unions etc.

We mocked Republicans for wetting themselves or making disparaging jokes whenever any Muslim anywhere managed to breathe. Now, many Democrats are behaving similarly. It's part of the power construct. Having power, even when it is not exercised well (or maybe especially so), creates a need to justify that power. The Other is one of the easiest tools at hand.

The militias are a fringe who have suddenly found great press agents in both Republicans and Democrats. Republicans get to pretend there are massive amounts of civil, patriotic unrest, and Democrats get to pretend that every single Republican and conservative everywhere is just as batshit crazy.

It's just easier to fall into this brainlessness rather than to think situations through, and so many people fall into it - quite willingly and quite often. Usually because it suits their political goals of the moment.

Personally, I don't think the tea-types are the only ones who look reactionary, ignorant, and intolerant in this little political dance.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. I get it, so UNDERSTANDING where they come from

and I did not say a thing about the other or rural America, is just creating the other?

And concern for a fringe that could potentially become violent, like oh the Weathermen did oh back in the 70s is doing a caricature.

Okie dokie.

I guess I'd better go laugh now, at the stupidity of some folks... and that is not necessarily you.

But I guess I need to put that caveat in here.

Oy there are days...

By the way, these guys have a lot more in common with what led to the Kansas Little War than oh the Weathermen had with the Red brigades, but I am sure you realize that.

[Romulox]

49. +1,000,000. nt

[Romulox]

48. I think this militia hysteria is political theater. There. I said it. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Yep, sure, let's chrotle a little more

it will be all laughs (we hope)

And they are all fun and games (we hope)

by the way so were the leaders of a few other events in US history, because we KNOW that the US has never, evah seen political violence inside it's borders...

(And that came from both fringes of the political spectrum by the way)

Keep chortling and laughing...

There I said it...

[Romulox]

51. Earlier today, I posted a story about a Muslim militant/cult leader who was raided by the FBI

and killed last fall in my home city of Dearborn, Michigan.

Funny, there was no hysteria on DU about that incident, even though the guy had a warehouse full of guns, dozens of followers, and a violent manifesto.

I wonder why a group of militants in one Michigan city elicit such interest, and militants in another Michigan city elicit so little? Surely someone as vigilant as you can fill me in? :shrug: :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. I have a problem with ANY militia

right, left, center, (the last is highly unlikely) and any religious fanatic.

But hey, whatever.

[cali]

53. More portentous crap from you.

Yes, a militia can be a threat, but these groups aren't new. I remember meeting with Mark Potok 15 years ago about them when I was writing my thesis. Most of these groups are pretty impotent.

ooga booga. You may be scared, dear. I am not.

And has it really exploded?

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Ooohh I shoudl be impreseed, by the lack of readying comprehension that is

dear....

Let me translate this for you, DEAR.

We laugh at our peril, we under estimate them at our peril, that does not mean you run under your bed and hide while quivering in fear.

It appears that telling people to pay attention means they should be really, REALLY afraid, and under their beds.

PFFTTT...

You interviewed Potok... I have actually TALKED to some of these ass clowns, like in the same room, and shit.

I also know MOST of them are pretty harmless. But to think that ALL of them are pretty harmless is the height of stupidity, since we all know the US has never, EVAH had political violence. EVAH...

Now off to the ignore while not on ignore you go again...

Stupid people who read what they want should never evah be encouraged... and you do have a little in common with these guys... by the way.

oogah boogahh

[cali]

61. I'm not laughing. I find the militia types too repugnant for humor

but unlike you, honey, I'm not waxing hysterical and flinging about stupid prognostications.
And Nadin? You weren't just saying that folks should be paying attention. You said how terrifying and scary these groups are several times in your OP. If you find something scary, it follows, dearie, that you are scared.

You calling me stupid? that's rich, sweetie. And of course you need to put me on ignore. you're threatened by me. You've made that clear, dumpling.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. My dear I said that people who laugh

and just laugh that is a classic fear reaction, learn to read.

You do lack readying comprehension...

And I do not put you on real ignore because your attacks get worst and you are way too entertaining in your bullying ways.

There I said it. You ARE a bully.

[cali]

65. classic projection, sweetie.

and you have a terribly thin skin for a bully.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Whatever sweet dreams

But you get your jollies from whenever you get a reaction from me...

Have fun bully.

[Winterblues]

54. I am still way too worried about Iraqi soldiers invading and killing us all..

Can't worry about the make believe soldiers playing army...

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Sadly the threat from the Iraqi soliders

is actually lower than the threat from these pretend ones.

Like the Iraqi are Zero, and these guys actually pose a small risk... albeit not the ones you are seeing on the tube these days.

[onethatcares]

58. agreed, was thinking about the same today.

when you combine illiteracy with religion, something is gonna have to give. These folks are primed and ready, they hate the idea of a black man being president of the country. they've been spoon fed the line that the blacks, browns and latinos are taking thier jobs and causing all their troubles. they've bought into that theory because they have nothing else to grasp on to. when bullets and guns are easier to buy than teachers and books, this is what we end up with.


Imagine * having people walking around at venues that his folks were speaking at with guns on their hips. It would have never been allowed, EVER.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Just be careful NOT to cross into actual fear

but we should not take our eyes from them (and other fringe groups on both sides, apparently this is needed round these parts as well)...

But those who just laugh might be in for a surprise.

Back in the day, the 1990s, I was doing a lot of readying into the movement (ok which one, white identity, christian identity)... two stories out of that research.

The first comes from Dallas. We landed there on a trip home and CNN was JUST breaking into OKC. Of course people were going, "it had to be a furienger, " and Arab was popular that day.

So I turn to my sis and told her, nope this is locally done... this is a good ol' Murican doing this.

So a man turned to me and confronted me. I plainly explained to him that if this was NYC or LA he'd have a point, But no external terror group would attack a fourth rate target.

The second was... I was doing that readying for a novel dealing with them. It came to a screeching halt as I am writing a scene involving a mass shooting at a local HS... when I turned on CNN as Columbine was breaking. That was the end of that foray into novel writing that involved them. But that does not mean I have lost my at times enhanced interest in the Militias.

Hell my first contact with them was with some of the local crew (Nazi Party) who were so happy a white who spoke English was picking them up in Tijuana after a bar fight. What they were doing down there is still a mystery to me, but I suspect some ahem drug trafficking or white slavery was involved.

[spanone]

66. they are to be feared. it's the american jihad...

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. At least the Hutaree, they are part of the Christian Identity Movement

The good news about the militias is that they have MANY groups.

The bad news, some of the ideology is similar across the board.