How many DU Catholics have been demoralized by the church scandals?

[Philosoraptor]

Are you a conflicted Catholic, or a former Catholic, or a recovering Catholic? How have the many, many, child abuse scandals affected your faith?

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. The RCC lost me completely

I started moving away from the church when I was 12 or 13. This pedophile priest crap shut the door for good.

[Prometheus Bound]

2. I have been.

It's extremely depressing, demoralizing, sickening.

[kimmylavin]

3. I actually gave up on the church a long time ago.

But I feel truly sorry for what this has done to my father.
He was a die-hard Catholic; went to Catholic school straight up through college.

When these allegations started coming to light, he stopped going to church.
I know that this has left a huge hole in his life; he's just so sad, and so disappointed about the whole sordid mess... he won't even talk about it anymore.

[YOY]

4. They weren't why I left but they bother me.

There are good people there...including in the cloth. I suspect their hands are tied in speaking out against this and purging it from the church. In the meantime it just continues.

I left because it was standard religious "excuses for everything" with no demonstrative fact but using the word "faith" in substitute crapola...you find that everywhere.

[Ignis]

44. +1 from another former Catholic

I personally knew Catholics whose families had been directly affected by the sex-abuse scandals back in ~1990. I'm appalled at the way the Church handled this issue then, and I remain appalled at how high up the food-chain the obfuscation and CYA goes.

Seriously, to those few of you remaining Liberal Catholics out there: If you need a church-centered experience, check out the UUA.

[YOY]

57. I knew one dude in college. Art major.

Wasn't a friend but a friend of a friend. Some of his works centered around his abuse which happened at a young age...One stood out in my mind. A gigantic standing arc shaped sculpture that had to be experienced by standing "under it.

It was in the shape of a shapeless black clothed figure with a white face and roman collar that had arms encircling the viewer as it loomed over them. Entrapping the viewer and dominating them.

"disturbing" wasn't quite the word for it...but it was disturbing.

[Ignis]

58. Creeeeeepy! ...And a great reminder of the power of authority.

Those who abuse their positions of trust and authority to abuse children deserve incarceration, treatment, and rehabilitation--NOT the protection of one of the most powerful organizations in the world.

:argh:

[YOY]

59. All we can do is leave and tell them why we left, Ignis.

One can only hope that they will eventually wisen up when the flock really starts dimishing. They have changed in the past but this really is a call for Vatican III...which Joey Ratz will never even begin to ponder. Perhaps his successor.

You as well as I know that the straightest way to becoming a former Catholic is being educated through Catholic School...for a number of reasons.

It's why the Catholic RWers hate themselves some lenient Catholic Schools.

[Ignis]

60. Great point on Vatican 3: WAAAAAY overdue.

Where's the Church of the '80s that at least gave lip-service to social and economic justice?

:shrug:

[YOY]

62. In Moore's latest film they do. I was kind of shocked.

Now the old priest from my Grade School...bitter old mother fucker by the name of (no shit) Father Moriarty (just like Holmes' archenemy)...he never would.

That dude was an old school beat-you-with-a-belt bastard.

Depends on the priest/bishop.

[Mojeoux]

76. We Had Father Pat and Father Lauren

Father Pat was like a Saint to us. I never heard about Fr.Lauren bring a pedophile to anyone, but he was totally a prick. Plus, all the kids knew that if you confessed any sin that was at all sexual, like you played doctor, he would keep you in there forever and harangue you with questions about every detail.

If you stayed long in Fr. Lauren's confessional, other kids would tease you.

Plus after these long years I'm convinced he told the nuns our little sins too.

[StarlightGold]

5. Totally

demoralized...angry...sickened...

The crimes and the cover-ups have been the key factor in my breaking free from the church's stranglehold. The story of the 9 year old in Brazil was the absolute end. (She was raped and impregnated with twins by her step-father. The bullies at the vatican excommunicated her and her mother for daring to put the child's well being ahead of church doctrine).

I seriously question the humanity of anyone who still supports this institution. "Well, the priests and nuns were nice to ME, so it doesn't matter what others went through". :(

[Hannah Bell]

6. demoralization is the objective. the church is a political force in the world.

the attacks on the church are mounted, not out of concern for children, but on that political force, by another equally corrupt.

the footsoldiers are manipulated by both.

[MineralMan]

9. Actually, no. I attack the RCC because they covered up all

those cases of sexual abuse of children for all those years. That is my only reason for attacking the Catholic church. You are incorrect in your assessment.

[Hannah Bell]

20. i'm not talking about you or DU, sorry.

[Toasterlad]

21. The Poor, Poor Catholic Church. Beseiged By Foes On Every Front.

It's too bad all those priests were framed for molesting all those children just to provide the church's enemies with ammunition.

[Hannah Bell]

30. you also miss the point. a lot of that going on.

[Toasterlad]

31. Please Enlighten Me As To Who Is Attacking the Church and Why.

[Hannah Bell]

39. why, the anti-catholic league (TM), of course. see their website where they announce their

dastardly plan for world domination.

[Toasterlad]

45. Sorry, You Apparently Have To Let Me Know When You're Being Sarcastic On This Issue

So many people are such jaw-dropping apologists for the church that I can't tell the fake from the tongue-in-cheek anymore.

[rug]

66. Very insightful.

:thumbsup:

[tularetom]

7. My wife is although she'd never admit it

I can see the signs. She used to counter the pedophile stories by things like pointing out examples of clergy in Latin America who were shot by the army for defending the poor. She has just given up on that. She has never liked the pope and she's outraged at his apparent involvement in coverups of bad priest behavior.

We live about 17 miles from the nearest church but she typically attended mass at least twice a month. Now, she didn't even bother to go on Palm sunday.

She's having a problem with this. It isn't easy giving up on what you've believed for almost 70 years.

[hedgehog]

37. That's a story that's all too common. There were many elderly

people in my parish who haven't been to Mass since the bishop shuttered the doors on our church and declared our parish dissolved. Smashing a community isn't the same thing as moving pedophiles around, but it comes out of the same system.

[JohnnyLib2]

8. Maybe I represent a subgroup.....

--from an Irish-Catholic family with priests and nuns in several generations
--intermittent contact with various relatives all around the country and in Ireland
--no reports of sexual abuse or awareness of it (and it certainly is discussed)

--I drifted away at an early age for other reasons but have no difficulty finding appreciation for the role that faith plays in many lives, especially my immigrant grandparents and their siblings.

One other note: we grew up with a layman's understanding of a gap between local parishioners and the RC hierarchy. That perspective makes the extreme bashing of "Catholics" painful to hear or read.

[Toasterlad]

22. I'm Sure the Local Nazis Were All Nice, Too. It Was the MAIN Branch That Caused All the Trouble.

I guess it was the RC heirarchy who were going around raping children. Not the upstanding local parishoners.

[hedgehog]

41. Yeppers, all Catholics are children raping Nazis......

:eyes:

[Toasterlad]

43. Wow, Those Pictures Of Random Acts Of Kindness Totally Showed Me

I forgot that the priests who raped the children all wore mustaches and black hats so that everyone could see how evil they were, and, like vampires, they could never be photographed doing anything good.

Regardless, I was responding to the claim that it's the church heirarchy that represents the sole problem with the church, not the local priests. I'm assuming that means that it was that it was Ratzinger who was personally going around raping all those children around the world, and then framing the local priests. I mean, I knew that he covered it up, but I didn't know that he actually DID the raping.

[mrs_p]

74. chavez and romero are two of my heros

day is another...

[Tailormyst]

81. None of those things make up for what was done to mine and many other families

None of those pictures makes up for the fact that douchebags like Cardinal Law were given places of honor in Rome after spending decades hiding, covering up, defending and enabling priests who were busy sticking their penises into the orifices of young boys. This was not an isolated thing. It was worldwide, rampant and enabled by the Bishops, Cardinals and Popes.

I think you missed the point the poster was making, which was, just because father john was a nice guy and never molested anyone that you know of doesn't make what the church as a whole did okay. Priests knew and know what waws and is happening. They choose to look the other way on orders of their higher ups.

[JohnnyLib2]

72. Lost me. Parishioners are lay people, community members.

I don't have a clue whether sex offender rates differ across religious groups. ??

[blueamy66]

35. I can so relate to you.

My thoughts exactly.

[JohnnyLib2]

70. Thank you. I think my point was missed above.

However, the comments illustrate some of this Pope's "collateral damage." Sigh.

[PassingFair]

10. I feel sorry for the liberal Catholics.

My husband's family was very involved in their
church/school/activism. They were very active
in working against poverty.

Now they are pretty much all lapsed Catholics, the
last brother and sister-in-law leaving during
the Iraq war, which their priest declared "just".

I grew up a mixed breed of Episcopalian/Atheist, and the
Catholic church ALWAYS infuriated me with the denigrated
status of women and their stance on birth control and
abortion.

I know that they will eventually be better for facing reality.

[MineralMan]

11. For those Roman Catholics who are disgusted by this,

I recommend visiting an ELCA Lutheran church which offers traditional liturgy services. Either that or an Episcopal church which offers traditional services. The traditional liturgies of both are very similar to older RCC liturgy, and will seem very familiar.

I see no reason for people to give up Christianity over disgusting behavior by some leaders in a denomination and a cover-up by church officials. There are other places one can worship. It's worth a try, in any case.

[StarlightGold]

13. That's good.

I've been going to a Church of Christ that is so welcoming and non-threatening that I keep asking myself "Where have you been all my life?"

[Hannah Bell]

40. yeah, join the episcopalians, cause they're pure.

People who think that sexual abuse by clergy is exclusively a Catholic problem, or that only Catholic bishops have mishandled abuse allegations, or that a married priesthood would solve the abuse problem, should read this article.

It’s a recapitulation published by The Houston Press of an egregious abuse scandal in the Episcopal Diocese of Texas, involving a married Episcopalian priest who took advantage of his position as chaplain at St. Stephen’s Episcopal School in Austin in the late 1950s and 1960s to prey upon male students. (Warning: the article contains some graphic details and crude language about the sexual abuse that occurred.)

Here’s a question: Why has this scandal attracted so much less national attention than similar scandals involving Catholic clergy?

Just asking.


http://www.ncregister.com/blog/episcopalian_abuse_scandal/

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=894&dat=19950903&id=_RoOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jn0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6707,303548

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/12/01/TampaBay/A_path_of_abuse_cross.shtml

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_n36_v113/ai_18962917/



scratch any political grouping, find a sex scandal.

[rurallib]

12. One of the many reasons I left.

I was a victim of a priest, yet that in itself did not drive me away finally.
It was the combination of all the hypocrisy on nearly every aspect of their teachings that finally sent me over the edge about thirty years ago.
The biggest one of all was watching a Church that taught social justice slide into cahoots with those who did all they could to screw the poor.
I had long since left the church and had also pretty much put memories of molestation out of my mind when the stories started to surface in the 90s. The whole incident caused a rift between me and my family that was never healed. When the stories came out, it stirred up some pretty bad memories.

[ShortnFiery]

14. I'm fully in "a crisis of faith."

I waiver back and forth between "recovering Catholic" and saddened shell of a once "liberal Catholic."

Yes, it's been difficult for me to come to terms with all the hypocrisy within the hierarchy.

[mrs_p]

53. i'm with you

feel lost - especially during holy week.

[mdmc]

15. I am inspired by them, not at all demoralized

I recently was refused forgiveness when I went to confession. The priest told me I could not be forgiven for any of my sins because I was involved in a sexual relationship outside of marriage.

I never thought that I needed forgiveness from the church. I feel that doctrine is an obstacle to a true relationship with God, not a tool. I feel more Catholic with the church mired in scandal, not less.

[Toasterlad]

24. This Makes Absolutely No Sense Whatsoever.

You can pretend to be catholic all you want, but if you don't follow the doctrine, you're not a catholic. You're a hypocrite.

[mdmc]

49. Well my priest thinks that I am a catholic

:shrug:

Perhaps the doctrine is wrong? Could a catholic ever think such things?

[Toasterlad]

55. No, A Catholic Cannot. Seriously. The Catholic Church Demands Blind Obedience

That's one of the biggest problems I have with the catholic church. And one of the biggest problems I have with catholics is when they feel free to pick and choose what laws to obey and which to disregard.

It's not a book club or a sewing bee, where you're allowed to follow your creative impulse. If you profess to be a catholic, you are morally obligated to follow the church's teachings...ALL of them. Not just the ones you agree with. Holy shit, the pope TELLS you people this every other week or so, and yet you continue to ignore him, as if he's the Michael Steele of the roman catholic church. HE'S THE BOSS. HIS WORD IS LAW FOR CATHOLICS.

I'm quite sure your local parish priest is letting you do whatever you want. As the manager of the local franchise, he doesn't care about anything other than getting his numbers in each month. So you can have a grand old time not hating gays and believing that women are just as good as men, and your local priest will pat you on the back and tell you that you're just the kind of catholic the church needs...for as long as you're putting your money into the basket every week. Meanwhile, the REAL church is taking your money and using it to fund anti-abortion rallies and anti-gay initiatives.

You can CALL yourself a catholic all you want, but if you don't belive what the church tells you to believe, you're NOT a catholic.

[mdmc]

78. We disagree

:shrug:

[Toasterlad]

80. That's Fine. As I Said, You Can Believe Whatever You Like.

However, if you were to share your beliefs with Pope Nazi, you'd be lucky to not be excommunicated. HE decides what makes a catholic: YOU do not.

[mdmc]

83. perhaps

but I will never have an audience with him..

[mrs_p]

56. historically, catholics were allowed to follow

their consciences. it is the fundies in the church like the american bishops and the nazi pope that are trying to issue a purity test which every "true" catholic must pass and have basically pushed out anyone they deem uncatholic.

[Toasterlad]

63. Really? Cause That Sure Wasn't the Catholic Church I Grew Up In.

And it's not the catholic church depicted in over 1500 years worth of history.

You do get that religion - especially catholicism - is a strict set of beliefs, right? When people don't like some of the beliefs, the church doesn't say, "Hey, that's all right: you guys are free to believe whatever you want! We're just happy to see you!" They tell the dissenters to fall in line.

You do know why there are so many different christian denominations, right?

So you can do what Martin Luther did, or what Henry the Eighth did, or what dozens of other people have done, and form your own religion if you're not happy with some aspects of catholicism. Or you can continue to falsely claim to be a catholic who supports abortion rights and equality for gays, when there is, in fact, no such animal. Those are your only choices.

If you don't believe what the church teaches you, you are not a catholic.

[mrs_p]

64. actually, i was a nun and became one because

i was raised a social justice catholic. i also studied theology and philosophy and was always on the liberal side of church teachings which are rooted in scripture and doctrine -- just as the conservative teachings are.

here is a link from the catechism itself regarding conscience - basically, we are obliged to follow our conscience as it is based in good and truth and that conscience is from god: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm. of course, the hierarchy of the catholic church says they are the proprietor of all truth. we know this to be untrue -- the inquisition comes to mind as well as the harboring of sex predators. but the church can never get between you and the creator (no matter what they say).

i have since left the church, but if someone wishes to stay and "fight" from within, they have scripture and doctrine on their side as well. i am not going to tell them they are any less catholic, or put a litmus test on them. the church is the people - and the church is always changing. i believe these are dark times, as seen from church elevation of groups like opus dei and oppression of liberation theology. one day i may go back, but a lot would have to change. time will tell....

[JohnnyLib2]

73. Thanks for giving this perspective.

Appreciated...

[Toasterlad]

75. Well, I Admire Your Perspective, Even If I Don't Agree With It

I think one of the saddest things around is a person who genuinely believes that he or she can "change" the church, and make it like it "should" be. The church has resisted change for its entire history: indeed, it is literally a monument to anachronistic thought and practice. The treatment of women is medieval, the treatment of gays is abominable. This is not just the Vatican; this is ALL parishes everywhere. How many women priests do you know? How many openly gay priests?

The church is not the people, the church just couldn't exist without the people. If the church was the people, catholicism would be a democracy, and it most certainly is not.

I would be okay with these liberal catholics tilting at their windmills if not for the fact that their money is going to fund hate, not to mention that merely declaring oneself a catholic provides the moral authority the pope uses to condemn homosexuality and abortion on behalf of all catholics everwhere.

[mrs_p]

77. i hear what you are saying, completely

peace

[mdmc]

79. thanks for the link and info

I pretty much fell the same way and continue to fight to change the church from within..

[Tailormyst]

16. Anyone defending this corrupt corporation should be ashamed of themselves.

Trusted men who put their penises in young boys, that is what this is about. Over and over. They get moved around. Stories covered up. Children's lives destroyed. The Catholic people SHOULD BE OUTRAGED. They should be calling for the removal of EVERY single one who knew and allowed this crap to continue. The man who allowed, who enabled, who covered up for the bastard who betrayed my family's trust and cause great harm to the men of my generation WAS GIVEN A FUCKING PROMOTION AND LIVES IN SPLENDOR IN ROME.

[seabeyond]

17. i am not catholic. reality. pedophile tends to areas where children. u.s. catholic system has

implemented good policy that has addressed this issue. that is something catholics can feel good about. the pope or whomever need to bring the same policies to other parts of the world that they have implemented here.

[Toasterlad]

28. Epic Fail On a Heaven's Gate Scale. Ironic.

I"ll ask you to explain these so called "good policy" that has been implemented, because your posts veer wildly between infuriatingly obtuse and hilariously surreal, and I'm in the mood for the latter. Keeping my fingers crossed!

[paulk]

18. well, I guess I fit in that catagory -

but it happened 40 years ago - when I decided that the Catholic faith I'd been raised in was really not for me.

I'm more interested in how my relatives, who still believe, feel about all this -

most of them, as far as I can tell - focus more on their local parish and don't care a whole lot about what the Church hierarchy says.

Their "faith" exists outside the Church...

[Dulcinea]

19. They lost me in high school.

As soon as I figured out their social agenda, keeping women barefoot & pregnant or in a convent, that was it for me.

I feel sorry for those priests who would never think of abusing children, but are painted with the same brush as those who did.

I'm saddened but not shocked by the scandals. Anyone who sends bad news to Rome will be castigated by the RCC hierarchy. If they don't hear about anything bad happening, they can maintain the facade of the RCC as the Great Church, something they firmly believe in. The public image must be maintained at all costs.

[Mz Pip]

48. That was pretty much my experience

I stopped going to church when I was 17. It was in the late 60s and the Pill had just started to become really popular. I remember the priest ranting one Sunday morning that if you couldn't follow the teachings of the church then it didn't want you. That sermon just pushed me out of the door for good. I wasn't on the pill. I wasn't even having sex, but I just didn't see the point of the total opposition to birth control of any kind.

[alarimer]

23. It's a criminal enterprise and always has been.

Rife with corruption from day one.

[county worker]

25. I am a recovering Catholic. I think the problem is that the church

hierarchy see themselves as not part of a secular society with laws that should be obeyed. I think they will learn a hard lesson.

I also think that the faith part of the church is not part of the scandal and neither are all the priests and neither are all the parishioners.

[donco6]

26. Left many, many years ago.

This only further confirms my choice.

[Brickbat]

27. I left many years ago, but I mourn for my parents and, frankly, my heritage.

There is so much good that could be done through the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, it's corrupt to the core.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. "When I saw the penguin coming at me with the ruler, I was out of there." Frank Zappa

For me, it wasn't a penguin, but a priest who gave me the "God works in mysterious ways" song and dance when I was 12 and dared ask a question.

[JerseygirlCT]

32. No longer Catholic

Lost me many years ago - in some ways back to childhood - because of the institutionalized and almost celebrated misogyny. I simply could not raise children to believe there's anything that's right with that.

These scandals only cement my sorrow for all the really wonderful Catholics I know.

[Toasterlad]

47. "cement my sorrow for all the really wonderful Catholics I know."

Indeed. I'm truly sad that my catholic friends and family can't see the church for what it is. Some people never question the way they're raised.

[JerseygirlCT]

67. Well, I think what they see is in the micro view

they often think well of their parish, and their priest. They see the good work done via that parish, and they truly believe in the social justice calling in the gospels.

Beyond that, in a way that I could only, from my personal experience, liken to that of non-religious or formerly religious Jews, Catholicism goes beyond the church doors. It's a lot about your culture and ethnic history.

In fact, that part of it was hard for me to let go of - even in just moving a "step to the left" as they'd say in Rocky Horror, to the Episcopal Church. Culturally, I'm Catholic. I speak the language, I know the prayers (well, they're much the same in TEC), I understand all the little things that go with being raised Catholic, and attending Catholic schools.

So don't be so hard on them. For all the very serious problems with the RCC as a whole - which gets worse and worse the farther up the food chain you go, IMO, on the ground, the experience is often different, and the ties go deep.

[hedgehog]

33. I am a Catholic determined to see change in the Church.

We've gotten far, far off-message if we think that our purpose is to venerate the Pope!

[JerseygirlCT]

68. I couldn't stick it out

but you have all my good wishes in that. It's long overdue!

[blueamy66]

34. I am a non-practicing Catholic

who is not demoralized at all.

[UrbScotty]

36. Still as devout a Catholic as ever

I don't let a few molesting priests - or a rampant media focused on scandal - spoil my religion!

[Toasterlad]

46. Yeah, Fuck Those Kids!

Oops...sorry. Poor choice of words.

[AngryOldDem]

54. Shouldn't the media be exposing this?

Don't you think SOMETHING needs to change within the institution?

[Iggo]

38. Three. One to hold the lightbulb and two to turn the chair.

Oh, wait...

[Gin]

42. I am a recovering catholic.....was raised in the religion and went to

catholic schools....it served its purpose and gave me some peace...but once I started questioning the church's ideas...I was no longer a member...religion is good for those that need it...also...women are second class citizens in this religion.. I refuse to be a party to that...

it has become big business and has lost the small community feeling that was there when I was growing up.

[Iggo]

61. I got out in 2nd grade.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

50. Cradle Catholic here.

Plus 12 years of Catholic school.

I had a very mixed experience with the Church -- I hated much of the official church bullshit at the time (on women, gays, who gets into heaven) but I was deeply influenced by the Sisters, Fathers, and Brothers I had contact with -- they were some icredible people who were really walking the talk and making a huge difference in the world.

I finally left over their stance on gays/lesbians (I was practically raised by a gay man) and their hiding of the priests who were dying of AIDS.

This pedophile scandle disgusts me to no end. :puke:

As far as I am concerned, the Vatican needs to be bombed into oblivion, and the pedo priest and those who conspired to protect them hauled off to jail. And that includes the Pope himself. :mad:

[mrs_p]

51. we stopped practicing

the weekend after the sex abuse scandals made news (though, honestly, we suspected it for years) when the archbishop demanded every priest in the diocese read a letter from him saying we need to forgive priests and that the abused need to move on. i consider myself a recovering catholic now - i used to be a nun in my rebellious years...

[AngryOldDem]

52. Former Catholic....

Demoralized? Nah. Disgusted and angered? Most definitely.

My faith goes beyond an institution. And I definitely believe in karma.

[rug]

65. To be demoralized, I would first have to be surprised.

[harry_pothead]

69. I'am a DU atheist, and the church scandals just made me glad to be so.

[deaniac21]

71. I'm ashamed of being from Missouri.

[Ferret Annica]

82. I am pagan. I was a hostage as a child with Catholic parents,

but growing big and old enough to get out the message I know there never was anyone named Jesus or any of the bullshit surrounding this alleged person freed me.