What are your thoughts on the MA. bullying case?

[Hawaii Hiker]

I think the that is one of the saddest things I've seen in a while....What those bastards did to Phoebe Prince amounts to torture...I wish they would throw the book at them (criminally) & I hope the family breaks the school district in a civil suit...And the teachers, & adminstrators need to be punished (criminally & civilly) as well...

If this awful story doesn't bring the problem of bullying into the limelight then nothing will....

May Phoebe Prince rest in peace, & God bless her family...

[RKP5637]

1. The teachers and administrators also need to be held accountable! n/t

[left coaster]

3. Absolutely! nt

[panader0]

7. I think the bulliers parents should be held accountable too

Maybe not legally, but these kids learned that behavior at home I'll bet. I told my kids when they were very young to never make fun of other kids, and to stand up for kids that were being teased/bullied. Fat kids, short, skinny, different etc. It worked. All three are quite compassionate.

[RKP5637]

10. Absolutely!!! n/t

[Echo In Light]

15. Hell yes they need to be held accountable

[defendandprotect]

32. +1000% --

[Are_grits_groceries]

2. That made me livid.

I dared any of my students to start it and ended some too. The day teachers are too afraid to stop bullying is the day they need to quit.

[Captain Hilts]

4. Check out

Irish Central. It's out of NYC. They've been following this closely.

www.irishcentral.com

Also, there has been a fairly massive anti-bullying campaign in Britain that began last fall.

[Rocknrule]

5. This is what they should have done in the Paducah and Columbine cases

instead of going after drugs, videogames, and other shallow, convenient answers. Bullying is a very serious problem and should not be tolerated.

[WilliamPitt]

6. I'll be on NPR to discuss this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8063899

Not sure when it will air.

[DrDan]

8. how about the parents who had the big hand in raising these bullying personalities

[Cleita]

80. I think the law should be especially hard on them.

There should be restitution to the victims, fines and a lot of parenting classes just like you have to go to traffic school if you get a speeding ticket.

[Fleshdancer]

9. Several thoughts. First, this story ripped my heart out...

What Phoebe went through, the pain she was in, the pain, anger and confusion her parents must be feeling now...it's very overwhelming and sad.

For ALL the Phoebe's in this country, something needs to be done. If it takes a lawsuit in this case to send a message to all schools that bullying should never be tolerated, then so be it. For any teacher or school administrator to witness bullying and not stop it is disgusting and I hope they have a hard time sleeping at night. Having said that, I do want to point out that my school district had a very strict policy against bullying when I was growing up and I think the adults did an incredible job.

The biggest problem IMO: Parents. Stop being a friend to your kid and start parenting. Teach them right from wrong. Teach them how to treat others. Will they sometimes get their feelings hurt in the process? Yes. Deal with it. You're the parent and this is your $@#$%& job!

As for me, I practice what I preach as a parent. Yes my daughter is incredibly special to me, but she's no snowflake. She knows there are consequences to her actions and she knows that if I ever find out that she bullied another kid, she'll be in deep shit with her parents. We've had this conversation more than once.

[RKP5637]

11. +1000, n/t

[Hawaii Hiker]

18. It ripped my heart out to

Bullying is a serious problem...Even in MINOR cases, a kid/teenager won't feel like going to school, health issues/stress can arise, etc...

Schools need to have an assembly on the first fucking day of school & say "We have a ZERO tolerance policy for bullying"...School officals need to hammer this point home, & not turn a blind eye to this...Instead of having that Pep rally before the big Friday night football game, let's be more concerned w/the students well being...Let's mix in an assembly for this issue & not just before the big game....

99% of the time, bullying doesn't end like in "The Karate Kid"....Student learns karate from a wonderful instructor, kicks the bullies ass in the tournament & shakes his hand at the end....It's a difficult & serious problem that schools need to address from day 1...

[Rosa Luxemburg]

12. Bullying is not taken seriously

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. I have never understood why high school teachers allow this to go on

We jump on it immediately at the elementary level. We don't catch it all but when a kid comes to us or when we hear them bullying, we don't ignore it.

I want to sympathize with these teachers but I am having a hard time going there. Some of them had to know how bad this situation was.

[MicaelS]

20. As to "why?" HS teachers let this happen...

My guess is they think it's a normal part of adolescent development, and if they intervene, it will only make things worse for the one being bullied.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. I guess I just can't buy into this being normal

But then I don't teach high school.

[Cal33]

25. One guess is: Some highschool teachers are afraid of their

students. I have heard of teachers being threatened with physical violence
if they failed some students. I wouldn't want to be a teacher today!

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. That might be but hopefully it's rare.

[RKP5637]

39. We used to have a HS principal that hid in the closet in his office and locked the door if bullies

came in and threatened him. He was replaced with a very tough but fair principal. Looked tough, acted tough, was tough and took no BS at all... but he was very fair. Just wanted no BS going on in his school. He was highly respected. The other principal was made superintendent of schools and did quite well in that capacity, he was just not suited for feet on the street confrontations like a HS principal (or any) have to deal with.

[gorfle]

27. Because they just don't care.

Schools are basically like prisons. The primary job is to keep them there and to stop any overt violence. But much beyond that and nobody gives a shit. If it's subtle enough to be ignored, it will be. In the end, it's always one kid's story against another, and who wants to invest the effort to dig to the bottom of who's really right and who's wrong? And even if they did get involved, what would change? The only thing that will change is the bullying will happen when the teacher's back is turned.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. I disagree strongly

I don't know any teachers who don't care. I know teachers who don't know what to do and don't have the answers the kids are seeking but I don't know any who flat out don't care. They'd be working a job that pays a hell of a lot more than teaching if they really didn't care.

[gorfle]

34. I think that's precisely why they don't care.

They don't get paid squat so why should they care? They keep the hooligans in place for the required X hours, they present the required material, and they test them to see if they remembered it. Job done. Why invest more of yourself?

I never felt any of my teachers ever cared that I was getting bullied. And whenever I brought it up it was always that I was as guilty as the bully (their word against mine).

There's just no reason to get involved so if you can turn a blind eye, do so.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. If they really care about money they would go find different jobs

Most professions requiring a college degree pay lots more than teaching.

Teaching is far more complicated than just keeping kids in place and testing them.

I'm sorry your teachers were not helpful but I don't know any teachers who would rather turn a blind eye than help a kid.

[gorfle]

41. Get real.

I'm sorry your teachers were not helpful but I don't know any teachers who would rather turn a blind eye than help a kid.

Come on. I can't believe this. Johnny goes up to teacher. "Teacher, billy punched me!" Billy says, "He hit me first!" Now what is the teacher really going to do after 10 years of this shit? Really dig to get to the bottom of who is at fault, or just say, "Now, boys, settle down and behave now!" or, "OK, both of you stay after for detention today!"

Be real now. What do you think is going to happen. I can tell you want is going to happen from experience. Teacher doesn't really give a shit and doesn't want to cause a parent shit storm by digging into the situation, even if they suspect that Billy is picking on Johnny.

It happens. All. The. Time.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. I have taught for 30 years

in elementary schools. We don't ignore this crap. I am being very real.

[gorfle]

62. I didn't start having problems.

I didn't start having problems with child viciousness until junior high.

[Posteritatis]

46. Parents go nuclear when their little snowflakes are disciplined for bullying

A lot of people are depressingly willing, even eager, to actively defend bullies.

[tabbycat31]

48. even elementary teachers will turn a blind eye

happened with me. MY school's attitude on bullying was blaming the victim.... like telling a rape victim she shouldn't have worn that dress.

[Cleita]

81. I was fortunate that my teachers who were nuns, er excuse me sisters,

didn't tolerate any bullying unless it came from them. :-) I'm sort of joking of course, but seriously any such activity that they got wind of met with swift and severe punishment to the bully and little treats for the victim and any whistleblower who tattled to sister that it was going on.

[ensho]

14. the Principle didn't do the job and stop it in the beginning

teachers held liable too

after all they are the ones running the school and teaching the kids.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. How soon did the principal know?

I agree he/she should have stepped up and done something but I wonder how early on the principal was aware of what was going on.

[90-percent]

16. Bullying

The deepest most profound emotional hurt I ever experienced in my life was a few episodes of bullying when I was a kid. And I think I got off relatively lightly. I saw other kids that were really persecuted. I regret not having the courage to stand up for them. Or myself, for that matter.

I wasn't that wise or educated on the subject back then and was too fearful to even ask for help. I was fearful of everything for the first 16 to 20 years of my life. Having a self absorbed alcoholic father did not help.

I have a lot of empathy for any bullied kid. It does seem to be that the kids I run into these days are a lot less into bullying overall, but of course it still exists. All kids I run into these days around my neck of the woods seem pretty nice.

I have a friend that is raising a boy, maybe about 15 now, that has the wisdom and grace of an old soul. At 12 he gave wonderful toast to his much older brother at his wedding, and also comes to the defense of kids being bullied. Like a 12 year old Clint Eastwood with a Colt 45 in his hand! This young man has a natural courage and nobility that is exceptional not just for a young person, but for anybody regardless of age!

-90% jimmy

[Gidney N Cloyd]

22. I have to wonder why there aren't more kids like your friend's 15yo.

Why aren't we raising our kids to be heroes and defenders? Why do most kids seem to fall into categories of bully, bullied, or minding their own business?

[LeftinOH]

17. Teachers somehow failed to notice any bullying. I knew lots of teachers like that-

-it happened in the hallways, in classrooms, in the cafeteria, etc.. and plenty of teachers ignored it. I'm convinced that many people who were never bullied themselves are unable to recognize it.

[dgibby]

23. I had a teacher in 6th grade that not only didn't stop bullying,

she actually engaged in it,too, and I was the object of her "special" attention more than once. The day she stood me up in front of the class and made fun of the dress I was wearing was one of the most humiliating of my life. I'm 64yrs old and can remember it like it was yesterday.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. I would like to see a synopsis of the cast of characters and what they are accused of doing

The range of charges is lengthy and its not clear to me that verbal teasing is a crime (yet). The salaciousness of the story seems to have overridden the concept of getting the facts out.

[gorfle]

24. I think her tormentors should be publicly outed.

I think her tormentors should be publicly outed.

I think they should have to stand against a wall, with their parents, and read, for the cameras and the assembled public, their text messages, emails, and facebook entries that they wrote to Phoebe.

Bullying thrives in anonymity. It's why the victims of bullying never tell anyone, because they know that telling anyone simply gets you labeled as a "snitch" or a "tattle tale" and then the bullying becomes more vicious but simply goes underground so that the bullies can't get caught.

Bullying is a serious, serious issue, and it is a public safety issue. The vast majority of victims simply go through life scarred. But the few that break, break explosively. They either internalize their abuse and kill themselves, or the externalize it and kill those around them.

We need to stop and consider that what we are allowing to happen is people are abusing other people to the point where they quite literally go crazy. It's horrible.

[Cal33]

26. Yes. Making it public certainly would influence all the other

bulliers across the land!!

[RKP5637]

40. +1000, n/t

[fascisthunter]

28. I Am Glad to See Some Accountability

it is the only thing that will discourage kids from acting like this to each other... and hopefully the parents of bullying kids will take this as a warning.

[Lance_Boyle]

29. I think it's disgusting that the prosecutor is throwing statutory charges into the mix.

Prosecute the behaviors that (allegedly) provoked/encouraged suicidality. Why throw statutory rape charges in when (A) the guys being charged were also underage at the time, (B) it will be impossible to win a conviction on those charges when the "victim" is deceased (absent video evidence that proves sex happened), and (C) *bullying* is alleged to have led to/contributed to this teen's suicidality, not underage sex that was by all accounts consensual.

[Robyn66]

43. Sorry I don't agree

First, we don't know everything that happened so there may be good reason for the statutory rape charge. And I don't think there is such a thing as "disgusting" when it comes to this group. This prosecutor is a hero and if she throws everything including jay-walking at them in order for them to get some real jail time I think its wonderful. I only wish the parents were going to go to jail too. And I hope with all my heart there is no chance of probation for these animals. They need a taste of what real bullies are like.

[Lance_Boyle]

49. But only one of the boys who got the statutory charge also got the

"bullying" charges. The other one got statutory only. Why would the prosecutor, bent as she is on prosecuting for *the bullying*, bring the otherwise innocent second guy into this? He was an underage guy who had sex with an underage girl - why toss him into the midst of the "bullying" furor as if he was part of it?

[Robyn66]

51. I don't know

and who says the other guys is "innocent" maybe he is but I seriously doubt it. If so it will be proven in court. I have no sympathy or empathy for any of them. I think if they were indicted there was a reason.

[Lance_Boyle]

53. He was indicted for statutory only,

and if he is (by some legal miracle) found guilty it will be solely through the prosecutor's reckless decision to tie him to the bullying stuff. It's truly a despicable act from the prosecutor. You said it yourself - there's zero sympathy for anyone tied up in the bullying thing. Even though he really wasn't - the prosecutor is the one who chose to lump him in with that crowd, despite the dissimilar charges.

[Robyn66]

57. I am still deferring to the prosecutor

there must have been some reason this kid is included. If he was only a sweet boyfriend or ex-boyfriend or showed some kind of sadness about this I doubt. This group of kids (and I am not sure exactly who) were laughing about her suicide when they found out about it.

Who knows, maybe he is being totaly railroaded. I don't know. I am sure more will come out as this progresses but I am sure not willing to give any of them the benefit of the doubt.

[Quantess]

47. I would agree with you in almost every other situation

except in this case I think it's appropriate. They may not be found guilty of statutory rape charges, who knows, but it's good they go after them in this case, because the sexual behaviors partly led up to the bullying.

[Lance_Boyle]

50. Then the prosecutor needs to go after the dead girl post-mortem, too.

She had sex with an underage boy, who is now being dragged into the "bullying" prosecution even though he had no part in it. Just because two young people had sex. 'Taint right.

[Quantess]

52. Oh. I was under the impression that two boys who had sex with were also taking part in the bullying

That was my impression, anyway.

[Lance_Boyle]

54. Only one of them. The other is charged with statutory only. n/t

[Quantess]

72. I just looked up an article about the bullies.

The boy who is only charged with statutory rape charge was 18.

We'll have to see how it all plays out in court.

[Robyn66]

89. The boy charged "only" with statutory rape

is 18. Phoebe was 15. That is a HUGE difference at that age and she was not old enough to grant consent. Who knows what kind of "pressure to fit in" she may have been feeling to have sex with those boys. It very well may have been nothing and he may be innocent but that will be determined by the court. I am not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I could never be on that jury!

[Robyn66]

55. I don't think so

and you can't bring her into it because she is dead. There wouldn't be any charges if she wasn't dead. THis sounds like blame the victim to me. THis girl lived in hell. The boy didn't apparently help her any.

[Lance_Boyle]

56. 'Didn't help her any' is no reason to ruin his life with a statutory charge.

Of course, they can't successfully prosecute him either because she's dead - no proof it happened, and no "victim" to allege it. But it is disgusting that people want this kid's head on a pike for having consensual sex with a girl roughly his own age. Or, in your case, for "not helping" when she was being bullied. That's not a crime, but trying to stick it to him by inventing another crime is disgusting.

[Robyn66]

58. well you have a right to your opinion

in Massachusetts, 15 is too young to grant conscent. And standing by while someone is tortured till they commit suicide is not right. Maybe he will get a slap on the wrist and probation where the others get jail. But if they had sex but there is a good chance he was talking about her to other kids and making things worse. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out.

I think its disgusting that a girl was bullied to death and adults stood by while it happened and did nothing.

[Lance_Boyle]

60. Agreed on the school admin inaction.

I would be more likely to fault them for not intervening than to fault fellow students for not intervening. The school officials had a responsibility and failed miserably at it. But even the DA says that is not likely a crime. However, a civil action against the school admin could be... quite lucrative.

[Robyn66]

61. I'm sure Phoebe's parents would rather have her alive

than any amount of money. I am not sure of the aga of the one who is "only" charged with statutory rape was either 17 or 18 years old. How old was Phoebe during that relationship 15? 14? Two or three years age difference is a BIG deal at that age.

I was REAL raped by my 18 year old "boyfriend" when I was 14 and I can tell you the age difference is significant. I'm 43 and I STILL have nightmares.

But that aside, there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. I think you are going to see as this unfolds that a lot of really mean background subtle cruelty was going on with these people. And if this kid is innocent he will be found innocent in court.

[Warren DeMontague]

73. Delete. Dupe.

[mdmc]

35. Agree with all ya said

And can't beleive that the mom of one of the bullies went public!

[Golden Raisin]

37. The vicious students should

have extreme and severe penalties starting with expulsion but the supposed "ADULTS" (parents and school administrators) are ultimately the responsible parties. That a 15-year-old life was snuffed out prematurely due to the pain and anguish of cruel bullying is tragic.

[Tailormyst]

38. The students have been indicted on a number of criminal charges

[Maru Kitteh]

44. Pretty much sums it up for me too. n/t

[Robyn66]

45. Nothing that will be done can bring Phoebe back

but maybe if a strong enough example is made these kids might think twice before they victimize someone or at least MAYBE the school system won't sit on its thumbs when the bullying goes on like they do now!

I was bullied in high school so badly that I failed the last semester of PE because it was not safe for me to be in the locker room. So I had a study but not attending PE meant I failed. Of course this was in the 80's. I don't think schools could get away with that now.

My daughter with Aspergers has been bullied most of her life. It was so bad in 5th grade I pulled her out of school and had her tutored for the last 6 weeks. I had practically been begging on my knees for the school to protect her from the bullies. If the school thought there could be criminal charges or real civil problems they may have decided to act.

I think this prosecutor is a hero for finally doing something about bullying!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. My view is that it's a witch hunt.

The only person responsible for Phoebe Prince's death is Phoebe Prince.

But prosecutors and the general public are out for blood. The criminal harassment charge seems fine, but the rest is really trumped up.

[gorfle]

63. My view point is that you are wrong.

The only person responsible for Phoebe Prince's death is Phoebe Prince.

What a completely ignorant thing to say.

Phoebe Price was driven to madness by people who derived pleasure out of making Phoebe's life miserable.

Think about that. A group of people made this girl's life such a living hell that the best option to her was to hang herself.

And you want to lay that all at Phoebe's feet, as if this is just something she decided would be fun to do one day?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. Case in point.

"Phoebe Price was driven to madness"

Yes, it's like they cast an evil spell on her. She had no choice. Complete mind control.

[gorfle]

84. You really have zero empathy.

Yes, it's like they cast an evil spell on her. She had no choice. Complete mind control.

No, it's like breaking someone down bit by bit until they have nothing left. Have you never heard of psychological torture? Breaking someone mentally? It is a key component of interrogation.

You are acting like nothing these people said or did to Phoebe had any effect on her at all.

I mean, really - why do you think she hung herself? For the hell of it? Because her life was peachy?

You speak as someone who has never known what it's like to be bullied to the point of wanting to kill someone or kill yourself. I, unfortunately, can relate completely to Phoebe Price. You should be thankful you don't rather than blaming the victim.

[Odin2005]

65. Wow, you really ARE an asshole!

:puke:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

69. If you're so upset about bullying, why are you calling names?

[G_j]

67. my god

what an unbelievable statement

I believe you are the first "liberal" I have ever heard say such a thing.
:puke:

The only person responsible for Phoebe Prince's death is Phoebe Prince.

[flvegan]

68. You never disappoint. n/t

[Midlodemocrat]

82. +1

And the scary thing is that people (not here, necessarily) agree with this standpoint.

[gorfle]

85. Does this person have a history of this kind of attitude?

I take it you've encountered this guy before. I'm shocked to find this kind of blame the victim attitude here.

[flvegan]

87. I have.

I'm probably skirting DU rules if I answer your specific question. All I can say is look around for his previous posts under this name or Bornaginhooligan. Might be a bit enlightening.

[Paladin]

70. You're Revealing A Lot More About Yourself Than You Intended To.

And none of it's good......

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

71. Actually, I think I'm letting other people prove my point for me.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster."

-some guy

[G_j]

76. sounds like you are defending bullying

or at least saying that bullies are not to be held accountable for causing extreme emotional suffering to others.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

77. I'm saying bullies should be held accountable for what they do.

Not for what other people do.

[gorfle]

86. They are accessories, plain and simple.

Straight-up question:

Do you believe Phoebe's actions were directly related to the actions of the bullies or not?

[Odin2005]

66. Brings up some bad memories for me.

I was bullies by both peers AND teachers and suffer from PTSD as a result. I'm glad these little fuckers are getting charged.

[Warren DeMontague]

74. I think it's astounding that we have "Zero tolerance" for stuff like advil

but they throw up their hands and go "gee, whiz, guess we just can't do anything about this" to bullying.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

75. Why is it astounding... it's the path of least resolve.

Zero Tolerence equals Zero Thinking. No reason to investigate. No reason to think. No reason to set meaningful limits or boundaries on risque topics & behaviours. No reason to justify any action taken so long as it's a "zero tolerence policy". It's a copout for the administration and teachers... "our hand are tied".

It boils down to a combination of apathy, cover-your-ass, and laziness.
Why should it surprise you that they do not deal with bullies. This behaviour is par for their course.
Unless it comes down to physical abuse or recorded evidence... it usually comes down to "he said, she said..."
What a headache for the school.

[MicaelS]

78. Thanks... that is the most succint explanation I have read of

Zero Tolerence. I hate Zero Tolerence with a passion, and I despise admins who implement it and follow it.

[Midlodemocrat]

83. I'll be honest with you.

Most school districts have a zero tolerance for bullying.

Among the kids.

When a teacher picks on a kid? Or 'jokes' about a kid?

Completely and utterly disregarded.

If we are sincere about eliminating bullying in schools, we need to start with the staff. As much as people want to blame the parents? Most kids aren't sharing that they are bullies or that they are bullied.

School officials know. And often turn a blind eye.

[Cleita]

79. I think bullying should be right up there with other crimes children can

be charged with like shoplifting.

[Arkana]

88. As a kid who was bullied, I think it's time administrators got slapped around

a bit on bullying.

As in LEARN TO FUCKING RECOGNIZE IT WHEN YOU SEE OR HEAR IT.