Challenge...in 25 words or less

[seaker]

what is the difference between a charter and public school? Bonus bonus points if can be specific to California...
The question is serious, not the word limit.
Thanks

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Don't know the specifics in California

But a charter school is a school funded by tax dollars that is allowed to set its own program and rules.

[valerief]

2. +10,000. It's the privatization of schools. Just as Wall St. takes taxpayer dollars

and, not bound by laws, does whatever they want with that money, these charter schools do the same. It's also a way to accelerate the dumbing of America.

[Catshrink]

3. Don't forget that charters can cherry pick their students.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Well they aren't supposed to do that

which is why I left it out. Of course they do, but there are lots of things they do that they aren't supposed to do.

[NYC_SKP]

12. Only a few do, AFAIK. Many have lotteries. Others even take exclusively at-risk students.

And, in California others are operated by county offices of education and are, by charter, PREVENTED from cherry-picking.

[seaker]

16. Showing ignorance, Please explain AFAIK

Thank you.

[NYC_SKP]

17. As Far As I Know = AFAIK

:thumbsup:

NYC_SKP

[seaker]

20. Sorry

Blush...my ignorance was showing.

[LuckyLib]

4. It is a local public school, bound by state and federal guidelines, that

has it's own independent governing system (a parent/staff board) and operates somewhat independently of other schools in the community. Each is usually developed by an individual or group wanting to stress a particular theme or attract a particular population.

[NYC_SKP]

5. In California?

Well, there are some privately operated charters and some true public charter schools.

A charter school is a public school which is usually created by a founding group that can include educators, parents and community members. It is usually sponsored by a local school board or county board of education. A charter school is generally exempt from most laws governing school districts and therefore increases the opportunities and educational choices available to the community. The school must participate in and be held accountable to the California State Standards as measured by the STAR test.

http://www.manzanitacharterschool.com/faq.htm

Most of the charter schools in my county are public charter schools.

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/si/cs/ap1/countyresults.aspx?id=39

NYC_SKP

[seaker]

43. Comprehensive response.

Thanks.:hi:

[SocialistLez]

7. In my state

It's essentially a school receiving public funds but doesn't have to abide by the same rules as public schools.

[KonaKane]

8. Charters are publically financed schools not open to the general public.

There, how's that?

[seaker]

10. First prize...

...so far for pithiest response.
Thank you....
Looking at the responses..why is isn't every school charter...seems soooo much simpler...no restrictions and 'free' money???

[sandnsea]

11. Wrong. n/t

[KonaKane]

14. Explain?

[sandnsea]

15. They are open to the general public n/t

[KonaKane]

18. No, they certainly are not.

Read and learn...

More important, however, is the difference in moral mission. It is the responsibility of the public schools to educate every child who shows up. All children who live in a school district have a right to attend a district school. Furthermore, no public school can in good conscience “counsel out” a student. Private schools are well known to engage the practice of “counseling out” when a student does not seem to fit in or is too disruptive or the school believes that it cannot well meet that student’s needs. As the student has the public schools to fall back on, the moral import of this practice is surely debatable. But the public schools must find another placement for students whose needs they cannot meet, because they – in the form of the district – have a moral and a legal obligation to educate every child that shows up.

Charter schools do not have that obligation, either legally or morally.the extent that many charter schools are oversubscribed, it would be difficult or impossible for them to do so. While the public schools have to cram in more students – hopefully, eventually, leading to more classrooms and even schools – charter schools only have to serve as many students as they specify. Charter schools are free to say that they do not offer support services for English language learners or autistic children, but the public schools must provide schooling for every child. Charter schools are free to “counsel out” students.

http://gothamschools.org/2010/03/26/are-charter-school-public-schools-i%E2%80%99m-afraid-not/

[seaker]

22. Thank you very much

for your considered response. :hi:

[NYC_SKP]

23. First of all, that's not a particularly unbiased source. Secondly, it's about NY schools.

That article is widely used to "Prove" a point, but it fails to do so in discussing charter schools generally.

Charter schools, in fact, vary widely and we should be careful in making comparisons from school to school and from state to state.

NYC_SKP

[KonaKane]

24. Actually it was exactly how the charters acted in my home state (Utah)

and likely still do. The prescient point is that Charters can screen out kids who do not "fit in" with their particular mission. Public schools cannot do that. You could make the semantic point that Charters are actually "open" to anyone but it fails when you realize the Charter has every right to turn around and kick that kid right out for any reason it chooses. The country club down the road is "open" to the public too, until the security guard tells them to leave unless they are an approved member.

[NYC_SKP]

30. They do indeed differ from state to state, and admissions policies also differ...

...as do expulsion procedures.

In my little neck of California, public schools would run behavior cases out into often awful continuation schools, or sometimes better community schools.

That's public traditional schools, mind you. They'd run them out.

Then these kids would end up getting in trouble and end up in Juvenile Halls.

I taught for four years there in JH, three years in the community schools.

Our county office of ed opened a family of charters that have lotteries in some cases, admission by areas of interest in others, and at-risk as a specialty in another.

And these are thriving, partly because of the freedom to innovate.

All teaching staff are union, by the way.

So, I get a little defensive when people broad brush charter schools, and I don't think you're among them.

We all want what's best for our students, and I think we all are against privately operated charter schools.

:thumbsup:

[sandnsea]

25. "public schools must find another placement...

for students whose needs they cannot meet"

Which is exactly what you call the charter school "counseling out" kids.

Charters are open to the general public. They kick kids out. Public schools expel kids.

Charters don't have to make room for all-comers, that is true. But they aren't some select group of kids like a private school. Magnets are more select than charters.

[KonaKane]

26. So I was correct. Charters are not actually open to the public.

charters can kick the kids out for whatever reason they choose. Public schools cannot do that. They all have to adhere to a protocol and code which favors the establishment of a good, free education available to everyone first.

Your point fails.

[sandnsea]

27. Charter schools adhere to state and federal protocol and codes

Neither can kick out anyone they want.

Local districts write the school policy, and they write it for the charters too.

Try again.

[KonaKane]

28. They are not public schools and they can kick out who they want.

Better do some real research.

[sandnsea]

29. Let me explain

Certain DUers who work with local charters have accidentally spilled the beans. Some of them are the charter monitors in their districts. Oops.

[KonaKane]

32. Charters can teach what they want - even religion. And can eject on that basis as well

Tell me a public school can do that.

You can have your own opinions, but not your own facts.

[sandnsea]

34. No, they cannot teach religion

They can be cultural however, and center around Islam or Judaism as a culture, not a religion.

[KonaKane]

35. Yes, they can teach religion. And do.

Here are some Catholic Schools which, pressed with financial failure, reorganized as Charter schools. And guess what Catholic Schools teach?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105461721

[KonaKane]

36. Oh look, a Muslim charter school.....

But certainly it's not teaching religion....

Muslim school threatens to sue Dept. of Education

MINNEAPOLIS — A Minnesota charter school that educates Muslim students is threatening to sue the Minnesota Department of Education for defamation.

A lawyer for Tarek ibn Ziyad Academy alleges in a letter to Education Commissioner Alice Seagren that her deputy commissioner told a Star Tribune reporter this month that the department is investigating lease aid payments from the state to the school. Lawyer Erick Kaardal says no one at the school itself was notified of an investigation.

State aid to the school, which has sites in Blaine and Inver Grove Heights, has come under scrutiny after allegations it allowed TiZA to use taxpayer money to illegally promote religion.

Education Department spokeswoman Christine Dufour says the department will not respond because officials have not yet seen the letter and no lawsuit has yet been filed.

http://tzvee.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-much-religion-can-public-charter.html

[sandnsea]

38. Right wingers complain about this

And pretend these schools are indoctrinating kids as terrorists. Do we really need to go there to demonize charter schools?

[KonaKane]

39. You're the one complaing about terror. I'm sticking to the facts.

the facts are that so far, you have been wrong on all counts. You claimed that charter schools are indeed open to the public, I proved to you that they are not. You claimed that charter schools dont teach religion, I gave you two pieces of existing evidence to the contrary. Now, in your fury, you're pulling the old republican misdirection trick trying to get me to admit I think Muslim schools are terrorist training centers.

Won't work on me, Sir/Madame. You need to stick to the facts or just admit you bit off more than you can chew.

[sandnsea]

41. And the fact is, they're cultural, not religious n/t

[KonaKane]

45. Catholic is not a culture. It is a religion.

And the link I posted for you demonstrated that, hence the debate.

[sandnsea]

48. Catholic schools have received public funds forever

They are in a different category than charters.

[KonaKane]

50. Not when they BECOME charter schools. Go read the article again.

[sandnsea]

51. It's a grandfathering issue

Catholic schools get public funding for the education component and must keep it separate from any religious education. That's the way it always has been, and the way it continues to be.

[KonaKane]

55. It's a diversion issue. Charters obviously allow the teaching of religion.

No matter how you want to obfuscate the issue.

[The Straight Story]

9. Choice

My daughter attends one, online - is home schooled. Some are good, some bad. Just like regular schools.

Need more oversight for them.

[seaker]

13. Hmmm...

Thank you.
Wouldn't that be more government which would begin to take on the complexion of current education or would you rec more direct parent oversight?

[The Straight Story]

37. A little of each IMHO - Fed Govt does not always do well on local level

More local oversight, which would feed into more parent involvement.

[Kablooie]

19. A public school is a school. Charter is a cable TV company.

[FailureToCommunicate]

21. ...in 25 words or FEWER. (Sorry, can't help it: journalist in the family...)

[seaker]

33. Thank you

:blush:

[demmiblue]

31. Brass tacks: haves vs. have nots (even in the most economically depressed areas)

[seaker]

40. Very interesting...

and I am grateful to everyone for their input.
Still not sure I understand why there is a difference if both take public funds...both can reject students, both are required to be assessed by standardized testing...It seems that instead of buckling down and teaching what is in front of a community each day folks choose to create a community within their community and all citizens pay for the separateness.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. Public schools cannot reject kids

Kids can be expelled for disciplinary reasons like bringing a gun to school or other serious criminal offenses. If those kids are disabled, they are entitled to special education services even when they are expelled.

But a charter school can and often does kick kids out by recommending they withdraw since their needs can't be met at the charter. This is not only for disciplinary reasons. And charters here in my state do it all the time.

[seaker]

46. Pardon

Public schools do 'reject' due to boundry lines, pior behavior, and capacity. They also refer a student other schools able to better provide for special needs. Parents can appeal.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. If they reject due to boundary lines or capacity they find another building for the kid

Same with special needs.

But charters kick them out. All. the. time.

[seaker]

49. Thank you

very much for your informed response. I really want to learn more about the charter movement. Can you clarify why the state is paying to separate students...wasn't that part of Brown vs the Board of Education or am mixing something up???

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. No I can't clarify that

I don't understand how they get away with it. I only know that they do it. Sorry.

[sandnsea]

53. Charters refer them back to the district

who find them another building or meet their special needs.

The. Exact. Same. Thing. as any given neighborhood school does.

[seaker]

54. Sincere

Thanks.
I confess, I remain a bit confused but I am thinking about what you and others have shared.

[omega minimo]

44. You've never heard of the Public School System?

:wow:

[seaker]

56. Yes...am a big fan

which is why the public charter has been of interest and remains an area of personal confusion.