Oh.. my... god...

[walldude]

I watched it. The wiki video.

I have a question for the defenders of this action. I do agree that it is hard to see whether they are carrying weapons or cameras or backpacks or groceries for that matter. So what is the criteria at that point for killing someone? If you aren't sure? Let's say for a minute that you hold an ounce of humanity inside you. Believing that, it would be safe to say that killing someone would be a last resort for you. So what could you determine from this situation? Well, you have a handful of people, a couple of which are carrying... something. What are they doing? Do they look like enemy combatants? Are they hunkered down behind cars? Buildings? Are they taking cover? Are they shooting at you? No, they are standing, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FUCKING STREET, IN BROAD FUCKING DAYLIGHT, WATCHING AN ARMED APACHE "ENEMY" HELICOPTER CIRCLE THEM OVER AND OVER. Now either these are the stupidest "enemy combatants" on the face of the earth or something isn't right here. You can spew all the "war" bullshit you want, no enemy combatant on the ground with nothing but an AK47 sees an Apache and then casually walks across the street...

[Faygo Kid]

1. Am I missing something? Is there a link?

I have been very busy today. Context, please?

[tavalon]

3. Yes, you've missed the bombshell wikileaks released today

They have a video that shows the murder of civilians, journalists and the wounding of two children by some very bloodthirsty apache military killers. Here's the link: http://wikileaks.org/

Hopefully, some heads will roll and Obama won't be able to ignore this. Here's hoping.

[TorchTheWitch]

32. the full 39 minute video is much better - they blow up the building

after shooting up the van with the kids in it.

[democrank]

2. K & R

[malaise]

4. Humanity?

They were celebrating cold blooded murder

[Zywiec]

6. Even the Soldiers that were running the injured children to get help?

Those are the actions of Soldiers I'm most familiar with...

[we can do it]

24. Ok Sunshine - Pick the 2 Out of the Pack That Felt Something a Bit Late

How do you know they weren't the idiots laughing about running over bodies?

[blueamy66]

86. Where did the soldiers

"run" these children to?

[kenny blankenship]

49. yeah, let's not allow our ambitions to outstrip our ability by too much

We must be realistic and stick to attainable goals. Baby steps. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good or something like that.

[4lbs]

5. That's video of an event that happened in 2007 in Baghdad.

That whole Iraq war was FUBAR from the get go.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/05/AR2010040503898.html

According to that article, the people in the helicopter misidentified the cameras of the journalists for weapons.

[ORDagnabbit]

7. old news.... well at least as far as armies go.. they've killed civilians without care from year

zero on.

that being said.... what about the vid from early on where the apache helicopter killed the farmers and tried to claim they were insurgents....except you could see the furrows in the ground from the tractor they were using?

too bad we dont have more control over our military.

[pnwmom]

12. It's NOT old news that the video is now available to disprove all the lies.

The incident happened a few years ago, but the video has only come out now.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

19. I don't have any buttons in my brain. You might want to check all yours, though. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. I am just blown away by this

Someone needs to go to jail. For a long time.

[Tansy_Gold]

9. and FalconAir promised this would never happen

Many of us didn't believe her.

I wish she were still here so I could give her a big ITYS.


No, actually I wish she were still here because that would mean she was right and we were wrong and I'd much rather have been wrong about this one. :-(




Tansy Gold

[happy_liberal]

10. wow, good point

"Now either these are the stupidest "enemy combatants" on the face of the earth or something isn't right here"

They really think we are stupid.

[Swamp Rat]

11. Thank you walldude!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Oregone]

13. People are defending this?

Are you sure?

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[walldude]

39. Oh yeah.. all the usual suspects..

Some in LBN too...

[rcrush]

48. Yeah pretty sure.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8100321&mesg_id=8100321

[spanone]

16. winning hearts and minds worldwide.....ain't we sumpin'

:nopity:

[XOKCowboy]

26. Yep. Meanwhile the LIVs wonder why Middle Easterners hate us..

Not a mystery to me. For those saying this was War then it's somehow justified then I say something is wrong with the people training our soldiers.

Meanwhile for every innocent Iraqi or Afghani we collaterally murder several of his family and friends vow to avenge his death.

[dorkulon]

17. I'd also like to add that armed guards are standard apparel for journalists in Iraq.

It helps to prevent being kidnapped and killed and whatnot. If a gun or 2 was enough to get strafed, practically every reporter out there would be dead by now.

[Bluerthanblue]

18. what do you think happens in war?

this kind of shit is part and parcel of war.

I don't condone it- but it isn't some kind of aberration.

This is what happens in war.

When the Enola Gay dropped it's load on Hiroshima, there were innocent men, women and children who were vaporized, other who died slow agonizing deaths. And it was no secret to those in power or in control that the suffering would include innocents.

Is that any less terrible?

There is no such thing as a 'good' war.

[Oregone]

20. +1

This is what all you war supporters were essentially asking to happen. You can't have one without the other.

[tekisui]

25. Exactly, all the chest-tumpers and hard-ons for war should watch

this repeatedly. War is obsolete and for the savage.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

27. War is obsolete?

Lets be serious. Even after a nuclear holocaust, we will still have factions of people who want to battle each other. Fighting is in our nature.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

28. So was slavery. And subjugation of women.

But most of humanity got over that.

If we don't kill everybody before, we will get over war too.

[lunatica]

35. If war were really natural to man humanity would be quite well adjusted

War is started by a handful of people who run the show. They take young people, mostly young men in the past and fill them with militant patriotism and hatred of 'the enemy' and send them off to fight so the handful of people in power can have more power. These people who are sent off don't become well adjusted or feel fulfilled by killing and destroying the enemy. They usually end up traumatized to some degree even if they're lucky enough not to be seriously wounded.

And strangely enough the great majority of soldiers who come home after a war will never ever again feel the urge to kill anyone. That in itself should indicate to any thoughtful person that war isn't naturally in man's nature. And PTSD sure isn't a reaction to having war as a natural condition in mankind. The argument that war is as natural to man as any other human attribute is puerile and baseless.

[Orsino]

38. If war weren't "natural," we wouldn't keep doing it.

It's hard, and it requires a lot of training to make a competent warrior, but there is something in us that makes us fall for war, nearly every time.

The only "good" thing about war is--as you note--that war itself is often great training for peace.

[mrs_p]

52. you are hitting on something

war is often about resources -- there is a deep rooted need to HAVE HAVE HAVE that will protect us from some real or perceived threat. i think that is why we fall for it...

[sabrina 1]

61. The vast majority of people on this planet

do not want to keep going to war. They never did.

It is always just a handful, relatively speaking, who start fights, in school, in a family and elsewhere.

The fact that LIES had to be told to get people to go along with WW11, admitted by their main propagandist himself, and that LIES had to be told to get these two wars started, shows that it is not natural. That only a few were excited about the prospect of killing other human beings.

To quote an expert on how to get the people, 'who do not want war' to go along:

“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” Hermann Goering

I can't think of anyone I know who is in favor of war, UNLESS they are being attacked. Even then, most normal people would still not be happy about it.

I believe there ARE people who love war. Those people are seriously disturbed, twisted. No different from serial killers or other murderers. In a sane society, they are marginalized. War, however, seems to bring them crawling out of the woodwork and gives them cover. They are useful to the 'leaders' who are only interested in the profits of war.

War is evil and most sane people realize that. When we find a way to control our government, to stop them from lying, and/or to educate people to NOT fall for the lies, then the majority will rule. But, right now, we have a powerful propaganda machine in this country and nothing to counter it. So, the minority of insane 'leaders' got away with their scheme 'to bring the people along'.

[Orsino]

62. The vast majority of people will go along with it, anyway.

Wars benefit a very few, and the rest of us are kept in line with flags and other lies. Hell, we keep each other in line.

[sabrina 1]

67. People will not go along with war for the sake of war.

When they do go along with it, they do so because they have been told that their and their loved ones lives are threatened.

Eg, support for the Iraq War was small, even after 9/11, about 70% initially opposed it. But when they were scared by stories of 'mushroom clouds' and terrorists blowing up people in Malls, and that Saddam Hussein was planning to attack the U.S., support went up. It diminished again after it was revealed that Iraq had no WMDs. Iow, people have to feel threatened to go along with war. So, no, it is not natural for a majority of people.

However, if people had done their homework and not just reacted to the scare tactics, they might not have gone along with it. AND, to get their support, as the PNACers stated in their own documents, 'we need an event as catastrophic as Pearl Harbor' to get the support of the American people. And then 9/11 happened, giving credence to their lies about Iraq, because the American people were ignorant of Iraq's history. Which is why they do not want an informed population. And the reason why oppressive governments always target intellectuals first.

It takes a lot to get a country's support for war. It is NOT natural for people to want to go to war except for defense purposes, except for, as I said before, those with massive mental problems.

[Orsino]

85. We did. We are. We do.

The threats we scare each other with are every bit as natural, I think, as going along with war for war's sake.

Every goddamned war, ever.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Hmm there is some research

that shows it is actually quite natural... chimps go to war, so do elephants and now dolphins.

So I would not go there.

I'd like to think otherwise, and I think we need to suppress that part of the instinct, we are animals after all, but we first need to admit just how tied to nature we are

[Moochy]

84. I'm pretty sure they are

based on the LBN discussion that was locked, plagued by an infestation of pro-war conservadem stooges.

[walldude]

41. So your defense is, this is what happens in war?"

Yeah... thanks for playing. And I didn't say it was some kind of aberration. The video came out and the defenders followed it. I countered the defense. That's all. Not sure what your problem is...

And was the Enola Gay less terrible? Yes I think it was, I highly doubt the pilot of the Enola Gay was laughing and begging to be allowed to kill a man crawling around on the ground.

[MellowDem]

43. The Enola Gay knew it was dropping a payload...

that would wipe out thousands of innocent civilians. Yet it was "less terrible" according to you. With that type of logic, it's no wonder your arguments make no sense.

[walldude]

63. Yeah? Well you showed me...

The difference I stated was the pilot of the Enola Gay wasn't on the fucking com LAUGHING about what he had just done. Matter of fact I read the pilots biography and the guy never slept a full night again. He lived the nightmare he created. He didn't get on the com and beg to be able to drop the bomb.

Listen I'm sure your humanity is around here somewhere keep looking.

[Bluerthanblue]

69. you read Paul Tibbet's bio have you?

have you read this?

Studs Terkel: One big question. Since September 11, what are your thoughts? People talk about nukes, the hydrogen bomb.

Paul Tibbets: Let's put it this way. I don't know any more about these terrorists than you do; I know nothing. When they bombed the Trade Centre Icouldn't believe what was going on. We've fought many enemies at different times. But we knew who they were and where they were. These people, we don't know who they are or where they are. That's the point that bothers me. Because they're gonna strike again, I'll put money on it. And it's going to be damned dramatic. But they're gonna do it in their own sweet time. We've got to get into a position where we can kill the bastards. None of this business of taking them to court, the hell with that. I wouldn't waste five seconds on them.

Studs Terkel: What about the bomb? Einstein said the world has changed since the atom was split.

Paul Tibbets: That's right. It has changed.

Studs Terkel: And Oppenheimer knew that.

Paul Tibbets: Oppenheimer is dead. He did something for the world and people don't understand. And it is a free world.

Studs Terkel: One last thing, when you hear people say, "Let's nuke 'em," "Let's nuke these people," what do you think?

Paul Tibbets: Oh, I wouldn't hesitate if I had the choice. I'd wipe 'em out. You're gonna kill innocent people at the same time, but we've never fought adamn war anywhere in the world where they didn't kill innocent people. If the newspapers would just cut out the shit: "You've killed so many civilians." That's their tough luck for being there.

Studs Terkel: By the way, I forgot to say Enola Gay was originally called "Number 82." How did your mother feel about having her name on it?

Paul Tibbets: Well, I can only tell you what my dad said. My mother never changed her expression very much about anything, whether it was serious or light, but when she'd get tickled, her stomach would jiggle. My dad said to me that when the telephone in Miami rang, my mother was quiet first. Then, when it was announced on the radio, he said: "You should have seen the old gal's belly jiggle on that one."

http://www.avweb.com/news/profiles/PaulTibbets_StudsTerkel_EnolaGayInterview_2002_196499-1.html

[WillyT]

22. Exactly !!! - K & R !!!

:mad:

:puke:

:cry:

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. The only thing I could say is that this is the result of standing orders

and at the time any concentration was attacked on site.

And before you say it, I am not defending this.

And nobody was armed, by the way.

[Foo Fighter]

29. Goddamn bunch of sick fucks.

And the same goes for anyone that supports their actions. "Fog of War" be damned. There was no "fog" here. They killed them because they could. Bunch of power-hungry bastards out for a cruise, saw some people, killed them for NO goddammned reason whatsoever and felt absolutely no remorse. Hell, they celebrated their kill. In their mind, it felt good. Sick fucking bastards all around.

How would any of those sons-of-a-bitches have felt if their mother, father, wife, husband and/or kid were gunned down in a similar manner? Oh, they'd be hellbent on vengeance. Someone would have to PAY for that. Yet somehow, if they do it, it's OK. Because they're killing "terrarists." You know. Brown-skinned people. "Insurgents." they don't count as "real" people with real families and real children.

And we wonder why everybody hates us.

I hope the bastards that did this end up with with life with no possibility of parole. In a prison in Iraq. It's only fitting.

[CrispyQ]

44. "They killed them because they could."

This mindset is the result of a sick society that cultivates a lot of this type of attitude.

> They killed them because they could.

> They tased them because they could.

> They beat them because they could.

> They raped them because they could.

I look at American society & I think what saddens me the most is the fact that we've come to glorify bullying & being mean. We have sports stars that go into the stands & assault the fans & all they get is a slap on the wrist. Almost weekly there are accounts of police tasing or beating people in situations where that kind of excessive force was totally uncalled for & all they get is a few weeks of suspension. We have war criminals on TV bragging about how they ordered torture & they are still walking free.

Our society is sick & we will continue to produce sick & twisted individuals, who are perfectly suited to military & police occupations, until we address the core problem - we value things more than we value people. We value the individual at all costs to the community.

We are losing touch with our humanity. The savages rule.

[Rex]

30. The 'officials' cannot give us any true intention of the crowd, just that

we know 2 reporters were killed in that crowd and that children were in a van that was demolished by a helicopter.. What are your first thoughts if you don't know this is America and our troops. Just apply it to any nation and run the same scenario. War crimes.

[TorchTheWitch]

31. Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer says rules of engagement not followed...

Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, Afghanistan vet, said earlier today on whether the Rules of Engagement were followed:

"Let me be clear... based on what I've seen only, and I'm making it on what I've seen: No, they were not. First rule is 'You may engage persons who commit hostile acts or show hostile intent by minimum force necessary.' Minimum force is the key here. If you see eight armed men, the first thing I would think as an intelligence officer: 'How can we take these guys and capture them?' We don't want to kill people arbitrarily. We want the intell take.

Now, most importantly, when you see that van show up to take away the wounded: 'Do not target or strike anyone who has surrendered or is out of combat due to sickness or wounds.' So the wound part of that, I find a bit disturbing by the fact that you have people down, clearly down; you have people on the way here..."

From Shaffer's comments on video that Hissyspit kindly provided here... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x452032
Shaffer starts at around 4:42 in this video, but watch it all as the others comments in the vid are very interesting as well.

[charlie]

33. I can't vouch for its authenticity

but a new video has been posted to YouTube, purportedly by an Icelandic journalist sponsored by WikiLeaks. It's a followup on the 2 children injured in the van:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BflAj2txMVQ
(1 min 31 sec)

[onethatcares]

34. when a war is based on lies,

all the deaths related to it are murder.

It's a shame we couldn't get anyone to protest against the damn thing.:sarcasm:

[Odin2005]

36. K&R

[Mari333]

37. I have a feeling this happens all the time , SOP, in both occupations

WH is silent on it because right now they are condoning the same actions.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

40. As a veteran

who in the interest of full disclosure did not see any action, we must be careful in applying clear, rational thoughts to those in the heat of combat.
What I saw was not the heat of combat.

I saw troops sitting a half mile away, in helicopters, making assumptions and finding reasons to pull the trigger.
Their actions did not come about as a result of being fired upon, nor did the tape show anything that looked like subversive activity.
I see the deliberate killing of unarmed civilians. How can I not call it murder?

Why did they do it? That is the real question which will never be answered because this is a complex, convoluted, complicated situation.
Perhaps they have been in combat for so long their spirit is dead and they feel nothing. In my case I feel sorrow, shame and despair that citizens,now soldiers, are acting this way on my behalf............. :cry:

[Pavulon]

51. The audio is important. Most people have zero context. The orders are coming from bushmaster.

the bradley the apache is attacking after they (bradley and infantry element) made contact. The pilot is so sure he saw weapons he asks for people to take pictures. Not what I would do if I just shot unarmed guys on the way to help grandma cross the street.

[walldude]

66. You 're right the audio is important

especially the part when they laugh about what they did. And the part where the pilot is begging for permission to shoot a man already wounded and crawling on the ground. Oh yeah and the part where they blame the van driver for "bringing his kids into a combat zone" yeah those kids should have been smart enough to be born into a country that's not a combat zone. They should have chosen their parents more carefully.

Spin all you want, if this was a righteous shoot the fucking Pentagon would not have sat on the video after they were ordered to release it per the FOIA.

[Pavulon]

72. and the part where they ask to photograph the weapons

how many righteous shoots you seen from pakistan drones? Its a fucking war, this happens. Dont send guys to war if you dont want to see this.

[walldude]

76. I didn't. And now we see where your side of the debate leads you too

The best defense you can come up with is.. It's WAR deal with it. Well sorry that doesn't work for me.

I didn't send anyone to war, I didn't ask for this war, I didn't want it, I protested it, I wrote letters made phone calls, I did what any other powerless individual would. And don't worry as soon as my kids are out of school I will be looking for a new place to live. This way wonderful humanitarians like you won't have to put up with war mongering assholes like me.

And yes I know don't let the door hit me on the way out... Don't worry I plan on stealing the door.

[Pavulon]

80. Elections have consequences. A candidate who said he would end all war

did not get elected nor did anyone in congress who has the willpower to stop it. Unlike Turkey, the military in the US has no say in politics, it follows orders from civilians we elect.

You dont have to deal with it, you can continue to try to change how people vote.

Every nation that is not a shit hole has some type of military. My top 5 list outside of the US all have or could have a significant military impact, but are really neat places. (Germany, Swiss, Japan, Argentina, Russia)

[MellowDem]

42. Who is defending it?

I think there are those who are looking at it rationally. I can imagine insurgents walking around calmly in the daylight, that's how they blend in and don't raise suspicion, rather than leaping from car to car. Maybe these pilots have even seen that behavior before, only to have the insurgents open up on troops.

The whole advantage of an insurgency is being able to blend in with the populace, and we have seen that strategy many times before.

What does an enemy combatant "look like"?

You seem to be denying or completely ignoring the confusion of this type of urban warfare.

I saw the video and don't think the pilots used good judgement. I don't think it was intentional murder of citizens, since they really did believe these guys were dangerous. Of course, I have hindsight and full knowledge of what happened now, and who knows what else these pilots had seen that made them so edgy. You have to realize there is a context to this video.

And to claim anyone who doesn't look at this as murder is defending this action is a pretty disgusting and false argument.

[Bluerthanblue]

45. a wise and reasoned reply

thank you for putting it so clearly.

[kenny blankenship]

53. A direct answer to that question would violate DU rules

Do you REALLY think the dead men in that video were trying to "blend in" to their surroundings?

They stick out like a sore thumb. They are being circled by Apache gunships, and yet they don't take cover or act alarmed.

But in the first place, Mr. Rational, did you see ANY foot traffic in that video, besides the guys who get shot?

No. Streets are empty. There are no people there to blend in with. They are not trying to "blend in". They stand out in the center of the square. They walk down the middle of the street. They do this in order to STICK OUT. Journalists do this. They always look like the "crazy brave" ones - but being conspicuously visible is actually their defense. They want to stick out and be seen so they will not be confused with combatants laying an ambush.

They just didn't reckon on American gun crews who see Iraqi skin as sufficient provocation to scream for clearance to open fire.

[MellowDem]

54. Whoa there...

why don't you calm down and just realize that you disagree with me. You don't have to get personal.

Like I was saying, if they were insurgents being circled by Apache gunships, it probably makes sense not to take cover and act alarmed, so as to not give them reason to fire. Insurgents realize that US troops do abide by certain rules of warfare, and use that to full advantage. Until they open fire on US forces, they may feel relatively safe moving about in the open as long as they are anonymous and not acting suspicous.

I don't doubt there have been cases of insurgents acting like the journalists in this video were, completely nonchalant before opening fire.

Regardless, I also said that I thought it was a bad and hasty decision. I can understand the original suspicion, but I don't think that should have been enough to open fire. The pilots were absolutely convincing themselves that these guys were insurgents. You would have to have to be pretty edgy to make that kind of assumption, or maybe they had seen too many cases like this before where it turned sour. Either way, the compulsion to engage was too strong, and I'm glad that it seems like the military has taken steps since then to reduce these trigger happy soldiers from deeming a target appropriate only by themselves.

This was at the height of the surge as well, so hopefully soldiers aren't always this trigger happy out there. But it is urban warfare and kind of goes with the territory of war unfortunately.

[ima_sinnic]

56. could we stop calling the Iraqi people "insurgents"?

I have come to hate that word--that word is a lie.
The "insurgents" are people like you and me who would resist an armed invader of the U.S.
Or would you meekly kiss their butts?
"We"--American soldiers--are in someone else's country killing their citizens--but "we" can do that because we have labeled them "insurgents" so it must be okay.
Countries have karma, too, and the karma of the U.S. is not good. What goes around comes around--genocide, slavery, imperialism, torture, murder of hundreds of thousands if not millions--that is what America land of the free home of the brave is ABOUT.

[Pavulon]

57. We can do that because a civilian ordered and paid for that

the video was brought to you by the guys on cspan.

[Bolo Boffin]

58. No one is calling the Iraqi people "insurgents."

Some of the Iraqi people are being called insurgents, because that's what they are. We had insurgents on our side during the Revolutionary War.

[ima_sinnic]

64. "insurgents" are people who resist the invaders; they don't "go along to get along," they haven't

surrendered their sovereignty to the almighty imperialist god. They might even prefer to live free or die--imagine that.

I would hope that all Americans would be "insurgents" if soldiers from some other country started stomping around here shooting up the place, raping, torturing, and murdering cold bloodedly, installing their own puppet rulers and diverting our resources to their own wallets.

I have only the deepest sympathy and respect for "insurgents" in the several countries we're raping and pillaging. We were not invited to ruin their countries--we gave ourselves the license to do that.

[MellowDem]

74. Whatever...

I'm just trying to avoid confusion. Guerillas, freedom fighters, your mileage may vary.

As for karma, I don't believe in it. Europe has probably perpetrated the greatest amount of suffering in recent history, yet it is the richest region of Earth besides the US. And America still is a damned sight better than a lot of places it has committed atrocities. Karma is bullshit. What's so fair about having one's ancestor's own bad karma coming back to bite their children and grandchildren in the ass? Germany is doing fine, I see.

Maybe the US is just acting out karma's will on Afghanistan for having the Taliban for so long? Or Iraq for having Saddam? Yeah, Karma is the stupidest fucking shit ever.

[kenny blankenship]

68. So you think people who look like regular civilians acting nonchalantly can be fired upon at will

because, in reality, they're probably insurgents just trying to trick us.

OK. We're done here.

[MellowDem]

71. Yes, that's what I said...

:eyes:

A lot of people need lessons in reading comprehension.

[walldude]

55. First of all the defenders are easy to see, find the thread that just

got locked. 2nd I never said anything about "murder" so don't put words in my mouth.

Third the "context" you talk about is on the com. They are LAUGHING.

4th shooting at a vehicle picking up wounded is against the rules of engagement. So that was an illegal act right there, and frankly anyone who SHOOTS A FUCKING CHILD and then blames them for being in a combat zone is a fucking asshole, or a Catholic.

[Bluerthanblue]

75. hmmmmm....

the pilot of the Enola Gay (that you don't blame) -said about the THOUSANDS of children he dropped the bomb on:

"...You're gonna kill innocent people at the same time, but we've never fought a damn war anywhere in the world where they didn't kill innocent people. If the newspapers would just cut out the shit: "You've killed so many civilians." That's their tough luck for being there."

so, what was he according to you? An asshole? or a Catholic?

[WillyT]

59. Ah... But There In Lies The Rub...

If this had come out soon after happening, then the powers that be could have used their considerable resources to explain to the rest of us how this, while completely allowed under the rules of engagement, is just an unfortunate side-effect of the fog of war.

But they didn't do that... did they?

Instead, they stowed it away under lock and encryption, classified it up the wahzoo, and told us there was nothing to see there.

Then they continued to fight the FOIAs that Reuters submitted to see for themselves what had happened to their fellow journalists.

Then they threatened to go after (infiltrate/disrupt/discredit) Wikileaks as a threat to national security.

Now does that sound like the behavior of an entity with nothing to hide???

And remember... it was somebody in the Military/DOD that probably got that video into the hands of Wikileaks. THEY must have thought that this OP went terribly, possibly criminally wrong.

And remember this too... it was somebody in the Military/DOD that gave them the classified document that the Army wanted to go after Wikileaks as a threat the National Security. They must have known that something was rotten in Denmark... no???

:shrug:

[Bluerthanblue]

78. and there in lies the rub -again-

why did it 'leak' now?

Not three years ago? Not during the Bush adm.?

Who stands to benefit now? Who stands to be damaged?

I don't know the answers but I'm not willing to mindlessly run with the pack on this.

There is much that is rotten in this world and I don't think it originates in Denmark.

[DemReadingDU]

46. It seemed like they were playing a video game

with real people. very very sad

[KonaKane]

47. They've been using video games to train soldiers for years now

and they also aggressively recruit from the video generation, where killing and dismembering on a screen has a certain detached romanticism to it.

[Cleita]

50. Why are we still in Baghdad?

We got Saddam. It seems we are using Iraqis as clay pigeons for our troops to practice on.

[RedCappedBandit]

65. The worst part is it seemed ordinary to those involved.

Bet this shit happens every day.

[Pavulon]

79. Yeppers, called "a war" you dont get to see drone footage

from pakistan shot last week. Dont get to see what happens when we fire on people with 105mm (a horrifically effective thing), mortars, or just rifles. This is how war is fought. Really.

[quinnox]

70. No wonder so many suicides happen when vets return home

Here they are seeming to actually enjoy killing people, and then it turned out to be a mistake. Now they have to live with that on their conscience for the rest of their lives. Anyone with just a small measure of human dignity and sense of decency would have a tough time with that, so they kill themselves and the military suicide rates go up.

Of course there will be people in the military who are psychopaths to begin with and won't care if the people were innocent in the first place that they killed and won't be bothered a bit, but these would be a small percentage of the overall total and most of them would be horrified at what they had done.

[Moochy]

73. F@#! these criminal assholes

people who murder this casually, they need to be brought to justice... But they wont, because WAR RAWKS!

f@#! this war and any who support it.

"oh yeah look at those dead bastards"
"nice"
"nice, good shootin"
"thank you"

[Pavulon]

77. CSPAN is so fucking boring, GCF not so much. Funny how the latter

brings you the former. Remember friend where wars are started and funded. Not with some CWO in a apache.

[Moochy]

81. I've set my expectations pretty low.. how about we get the few 'bad apples' caught on film

But even those lowly expectations of Justice are extremist in this day of Moving Forward And Looking Ahead in American Empire ™

[L0oniX]

82. This was and is the normal everyday military operations. It's not an isolated occurrence.

In fact, in this case there were more people killed that were not accounted for that were in their homes and behind those walls. The military commonly refers to those deaths as "bug splat". Of course it's funny to run over a dead body with a tank ...it's just another day at the office for our troops. Maybe we should spend more money on our military because I don't think 700+ billion a year is enough ...and by all means let's keep up the cheer leading for those who sign up.

:sarcasm:

[AnArmyVeteran]

83. It was MURDER...

[EnviroBat]

87. When I realize that this is only one of a handfull of videos that

we've now seen. This one was leaked! The media is complacent in covering up the atrocities of these fucking wars. The corporate masters know how bad the outrage would be if we were being shown what is really going on over there every day. How many innocent civilians, women, children have died over there at the hands of these jack-offs? The best part is boy and girls, these asshole kill-jockeys will eventually come home. Then we'll have to be on guard every time one of these idiots is out in public.

Hooray for the USA!

[TeeYiYi]

88. That is just SICK!!! I finally had to quit watching...

... What a bunch of heroes "engaging" the "enemy" from the safety of a circling helicopter over a 15 minute span. Then firing on the van trying to help the wounded.

The civilians knew the helicopter was there. They weren't trying to hide.

No excuse. Bad intel from amateurs. Cowboys with machine guns looking for a kill.

Sadly, this is just one video example of many...

TYY