Regarding a "peace contigent here at DU who consider any military to be unacceptable"

[patrice]

Speaking as a veteran and as a Peace advocate who has talked with some of the Veterans Against the War on Iraq, I know the line I am quoting above is a mis-characterization.

What we see in the video at issue is NO worse than a whole hell of a lot of other stuff that has been going on in the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq *and* *WE* *put* *them* *there*.

Individual responsibility is Primary. If that goes for the Troops it also goes for E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E else and if that goes for Everyone else, then it also goes for the Troops, no excuses, but you can't hold other people accountable if you aren't holding yourself accountable.

No matter how much anyone was/is against the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq, each of us is part of the WE that enabled it, the WE that evoked it out of our own history and culture. This would not have happened without that We.

No matter how horrendous the actions of others are, your own responsibility is the only real power you have over them.

If you are against the Murder of Innocents, you have a responsibility to change the ways that you contributed to enabling and evoking this war: some small contributions (like un-necessary driving) that could be EASILY changed, other big contributions (like campaign finance and voting reform) that, though you individually don't have enough power to make that big change, you STILL have the responsibility to do what YOU can to bring it about (because the STOLEN election of 2000 caused this war and the prostitution of the U.S. Congress financed it).

Your responsibility means any of the changes that one can make in one's self to be less of an enabler, less part of the problem, to try to not be, *even* *in* *the* *MOST* *indirect* *way*, a Murderer like the soldiers in this video.

To end bad things, the effort to make changes has to be made: some are changes that each one of us has all of the power and ability needed to bring about, others are changes that we don't have all of the power and ability bring about but which, if one truly objects to the Murder of Innocents, one has the responsibility to TRY anyway.

Unless one has done or is doing his/her OWN part to end all of this stuff in one's self as much as one can (and remember I'm talking about some actions here that ARE small and relatively easily accomplished), if you can't/haven't/aren't trying to solve the problem that put these professional murderers there, then what you are saying about the guilt of others is ambiguous at best and hypocritical at worst.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[omega minimo]

9. "so up YOURS."

[Hannah Bell]

2. yes, & if we all just buy socially responsible products, it's sunshine & lollipops from

here until forever.

baloney. i've never bought a new stick of furniture in my life, didn't get a driver's license until i was in my 30s & currently spend about $15/mo on gas, spent 30 years as a vegetarian, spent 2 years protesting the fucking bush run-up & war, & what you're saying is just baloney.

we can't criticize our government or military until everyone passes some purity standard, which ensures there will *never* be any criticism.

baloney. my driving doesn't = war in iraq. the causality is the opposite. and the masses don't initiate wars, they're dragged into them by the ownership class.

[patrice]

16. That's an Over-simplification of a complex process, a.k.a. Straw Man

[yurbud]

3. which video are you talking about?

[Rex]

5. Does that matter?

JK.

[Individualist]

4. Unrec. Save your guilt trip for the gullible and naive.

[quinnox]

7. lol, agreed

well put.

[Greyhound]

6. I think I understand where you want to go with this, but you're wrong.

"We", those that have fought and do live considerately do not share the blame. "We" have not acquiesced, not turned a blind eye, and have spoken out at every opportunity.

I know that you know this and I think that you are trying to bring some of those "other" around by softening the blame through sharing, but it doesn't work. If you are willing to share their blame, they are perfectly happy to let you shoulder it all, and then call you a sucker for helping them.

At least that's what I think.

[bananas]

13. +999,999

[patrice]

17. ". . . ***if*** you can't/haven't/aren't trying to respond to the problems. . ."

This isn't directed at people who see these facts and are taking their responsibility for them.

[omega minimo]

8. it's a difficult concept to get people to embrace or even consider, on a good day

regarding lifestyle, personal choice, self empowerment, purchase power, living consciously... one person here states they live that way and is still hostile to the OP...

What you're saying is true on any day on any topic, in the sense/s that we do help create the reality we live in AND that we are under the U.S. umbrella, for better or worse affected by its militaristic state.

Thing is, another aspect of those choices and responsibility is the decision to enter military service and support whatever you are commanded to do, by a system that has been corrupt for decades.

How many people think, on the level you're suggesting, about NOT registering and not serving, as expressions of their responsibility for the outcome?

[Hannah Bell]

11. I'm "hostile" because I've lived that way most of my life, & you can see the great effect

it's had -- why, war is a thing of the past, love is universal, capitalism & consumerism are vanquished, & the age of aquarius is upon us.

nothing i did made one damn bit of difference to any public policy decision, yet the OP still insists i didn't do enough & am responsible for the war in iraq.

but it kept me stupidly imagining things were getting better & i was "doing my part" for a long time, as the owners were tightening the screws behind the scenes.

the individualist, consumerist approach to public policy is a big lie, & it's a big lie sponsored by the same mind control experts running foreign policy.

yeah, sure, foreign policy turns on all our individual, unorganized "lifestyle choices" -- like hell it does.

go that route you'll be sucking up tofu & imagining you're enlightened as the world burns down around you. and looking down your nose at the "unenlightened" to boot, instead of looking at the people paying the bribes to the policymakers - who are also the people telling you it's all about *your* lifestyle choices.

those people use more energy in a day than you do in 3 months.

al gore

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ntPvxrrLGnw/Sc_aQp1UuwI/AAAAAAAAAMo/UXEc258ILUQ/s320/al+gores+house.jpg


sheryl crow (the lady who proposes i use one square of toilet paper per sitting)

[Romulox]

19. Hannah, when you connect with the ball you tend to hit it out of the park.

100% snark free Bravo! for the above post. :applause:

[aquart]

10. "Bad things" don't end.

But maybe we can stop being the ones torturing the Afghans and Iraqis. We can stop being the ones killing their wives and children. Doesn't mean that they won't still be killed. But it's time for us to stop being the ones.

Pretending that our continued presence will keep those unstable regions stable, that's a lie. Will there be a massacre if we leave? I'd bet money on it. Time to go anyway. Maybe the ones who die if we stay will be different from the ones who die if we go, maybe not. We still need to gather our metaphorical gonads and go.

[quaker bill]

12. Beyond this

when one has done what one can for 25+ years and the country remains unpersuaded, what comes next?

I live simply, campaigned for Gore in FL, rallied support against the Bush wars (Junior and Senior), have done one thing after another for decades now. What pray tell comes next?

I do not hold the military at fault. We train and equip them for a task, and this task is violent and deadly. If they do not get the job done with the first shot, they will come back around for a second or third pass. It is not pretty on videotape. But I am sure that it is not pretty on tape 100 times a day in many places during "active combat operations". We can and should be appalled, but also realize that this is what we send the "blunt instrument" to do. They are not there to dispense justice, they are there to dispense force, and they are quite good at it.

If we do not like the way it feels, then perhaps we should not send them to do this work for us.

[lunatica]

14. I do lots of small things but these wars and atrocities continue

I persuaded both my boys to NOT join the military, especially during the two Gulf Wars because I'm always armed with facts and knowledge. I persuaded one not to join Halliburton to go exploit the war in Iraq, also with facts. I refuse to buy diamonds ever since I learned the history of the DeBeers companies and the diamond industry. I shop in Costco because they're a blue company. I'm a member of a union and that's ongoing trench warfare in it's own unique way. I use my vote to support people and initiatives that promote my views. I sign petitions, write letters and generally contribute to the public debate as best I can. And I talk to my work mates.

I am not accountable for this war or any other. What I am accountable for is what I do and feel and what I don't do as well. The people who send others to wars so they can gain or maintain some superpower status are accountable for what they do. Me. I'm only accountable for how I react to them.

[MadHound]

15. Oh what holy fucking horseshit is this?

Last night we have people blaming the victims of those murderous attacks, now we have somebody trying to spread the blame around to everybody in the country in order to dilute it and absolve the people who actually pulled the trigger.

Excuse me, but those were the guys who pulled the trigger. Those soldiers were the ones who gunned down innocents in the street. Not you, not me, but those soldiers.

And before you get on your high horse pal, I drive a vehicle that gets 100mpg, grow my own food, oh, and have protested these illegal, immoral wars from the beginning. What have you done? Oh, yeah, try to spread the blame around:eyes:

[patrice]

18. I didn't say they are innocent. They are murderers. Their guilt is more direct ly a part of

what they are than mine and yours.

I just think our role in all of this SHOULD be included in the discussion, because that's HOW it happened.

[Orsino]

20. Our part in this incident (and countless others like it) is inescapable.

We authorized war, tacitly or by our failure to agitate sufficiently against it.

But this is what war is. There is no such thing as "controlled" war; innocents always die. In the case of Iraq and Afghanistan, we have remained largely oblivious, and war crimes have escalated accordingly.

[patrice]

21. Agreed.

We're waaaaay behind the curve on this stuff, perhaps, for some, more or less intentionally so.