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The people who are defending the video pilots would likely not be doing so if they weren't Americans

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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 10:35 AM
Original message
The people who are defending the video pilots would likely not be doing so if they weren't Americans
The bottom line is, a person can support troops all they want, but at the end of the day, the mindset is just as good as anyones who is supporting soldiers or irregular forces that are waging war against American soldiers. Which side one supports is ultimately an arbitrary choice. To claim that one choice is universal is akin to claiming that one Religion is better than the other, just because one happened to be born into this particular one.

People on this board are making excuses for what the pilots in the video did. Fair enough. I suppose this is a point of view that one can hold. Now let's assume however a foreign agent managed to kill a large number of American soldiers. By the same logic, the same people who are making excuses for the video pilots should remain silent, because this foreign agent would simply be doing his job as a soldier. And if this foreign agent "accidentally" killed a large number of American citizens in the process, then that would be unfortunate, but a person who claims to be supportive of soldiers would have no right to criticize this. I find it likely however, that it would be the same people that are the most apolgist now, who would be screaming the loudest. There is a screaming hypocricy to it.

I'm sure no one here has forgotten the "Highway of Death". Here is the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_Death

On the night of February 26–27, 1991 retreating Iraqi military personnel were attacked on Highway 80 by American aircraft and ground forces resulting in the destruction of 1800 to 2700 vehicles, resulting in the death of thousands, including a great number
of civilian refugees.

These were retreating soldiers. Where is the support for them, by the same people that claims to be supportive of soldiers doing their job? Absent of course. Instead, what we get is comments like this


General Norman Schwarzkopf commented in 1995:
“The first reason why we bombed the highway coming north out of Kuwait is because there was a great deal of military equipment on that highway, and I had given orders to all my commanders that I wanted every piece of Iraqi equipment that we possibly could destroy.

Secondly, this was not a bunch of innocent people just trying to make their way back across the border to Iraq. This was a bunch of rapists, murderers and thugs who had raped and pillaged downtown Kuwait City and now were trying to get out of the country before they were caught."


So they were all rapists, murderers and thugs. What a broad brush statement, made towards a group of people that were likely
drafted. One could make the same accusation against the Americans who are running the extra-judicial prison camp. However, there would be howling from the rooftops if one did so.

Personally, I hold the opinion that a person who has some knee-jerk reflexes to side with "his side" is not different from the racists who are saying that whites should stick together against blacks, or whatnot. Sure, support for a soldier doing their job is fine in theory. But one has to ask oneself whether one would have the same amount of respect for a soldier of some particular "other side", if they did their job to kill American soldiers well. If one cannot answer this question with "yes", then one is a hypocrite.

(If this gets me banned, then best wishes to the great number of nice people I have met here)
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
1. I can answer your little question:
I have the utmost respect for the NVA and the Vietcong. Always have. They were magnificent soldiers who fought foreign armies with next to nothing for 40 some years.

You have to respect a man or a woman that'll take a bag of rice and an AK into the bush and wait a week or two for you to wander through.

Just because I respect them didn't mean I didn't want to kill every one of the little fuckers I could get my hands on when I was in country.

Funny, though; for as much rancor and hatred I had for them when I was younger, I don't feel that now.


I'd like to meet some of the guys who were hanging around my neck of the woods to see what their perceptions are now about that time.

I wonder if they look as old and soft as I do.

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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
It is good you feel that way now.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Cool
You evolved from wanting to kill the people who were natives of the land your military invaded for no good reason, into someone who knows he is damned lucky to live long enough to be old and soft.

There may be some hope after all, but only if such evolution as yours happens at warp speed across the world.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Somehow
Your statement "You evolved from wanting to kill the people who were natives of the land your military invaded for no good reason.."

Just fucking grates. I don't know why.

But I feel like I want to stand on your toes and tell you You have no right to make grand pronouncements about my evolution, devolution or any other aspect of what I've had to endure or learn or accept for the last 40 years.

I didn't want to kill the natives. I wanted to kill the fuckers that were killing my friends.

It's nice we all have this great hindsight and political acumen and can imply pejoratives with phrases like "army of occupation" or "the land your military invaded for no good reason.."

My military. Heh.

I was still 18 fucking years old when I got HOME from Vietnam.

I didn't need any real reasons for going other than revenge, and of course the fact that all the men in my family went and did the fighting and dying since before the fucking civil war, and there was NEVER a thought of going to Canada, or resisting. Not in my family.

My army indeed.

Natives? It wasn't Avatar.

I helped the natives by giving them soap - detergent was like gold in the refugee camps, you could trade the shit for ANYTHING. I gave it out to my hooch maids so they could sell a little extra and feed their children more than the UN was handing out.



*****My army*****

When I was in the 6th grade, the girls were all marched to that special health class they giggled about for weeks, and all the boys were rounded up and taken to the multipurpose room where we were taught everything we needed to know about the Domino Theory. No shit. Kangaroos gonna be slaughtered by those fucking commies if they take Vietnam.

Sixth grade and I'm spouting Domino Theory at the dinner table.

Then a couple of years later Jerry Huff came back with part of his brain missing, and begged the people who would visit to kill him. Then Elray, my next door neighbor came back after defending Khe Sahn, unrecognizable to all of us, gone someplace inside forever.

I wanted revenge. And I wanted to save the 'natives' from the Vietcong and the North Vietnamese. It's what I was born, raised and indoctrinated to do.

My army. Heh.

Please: don't pontificate or prevaricate or sum what you think my evolution has or hasn't been.

I'll share what I will, and you can either accept it for what it is, or not.

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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I wouldn't take BeFree all that seriously...
hardly anyone else does. His reframing of what you say until it bears little resemblance to what you actually said or meant isn't easy to stomach, though.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Yep, and thanks.
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Brooklyns_Finest Donating Member (747 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. K&R
If you are ever in Berkeley, hit me up. I'd like to buy you a beer.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Thanks, man.
The other part of that story is the decade I spent in the gutter trying to drink myself to death, so no beer for me....

I am a fiend, however for ginger beer. Half a case of that and I'm good all day....lol.

:patriot:
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Brooklyns_Finest Donating Member (747 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Cool
It is always good to hear from people who have actually lived life.

God bless you and all our boys & girls overseas.
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coti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. So it's really just reciprocal attempted extermination of races.
For all of the dressing up war's gotten, civilians and the unarmed are still legitimate targets and it still comes down to "What say me and this guy who looks like me try to kill you and the guy who lives next door to you" stuff.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. I haver no idea what the fuck you think we're talking about.
try to keep up, sparky.
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coti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Did you read the OP?
I believe the topic was the legitimacy of killing civilians, and your response was....
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Absolutely. I read the whole thing and then singled out the last question
the author asked...The paragraph that starts with "Personally, I......"

As to the rest, well, I'll leave all that to the chairborne rangers and the rainy day generals to parse.
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Walk away Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
2. You are preaching to the choir. I still think the only good thing John McCain...
ever did was get shot down to sit out the war. One less person dropping bombs on Vietnamese villagers.

We really need to stay out of other people's countries. Someday our own children may be collateral damage.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. I think it's scapegoating to follow these grunts around with scorecards
while holding our leaders who are responsible for their being their harmless.

It's a slightly more nuanced position than "I support our troops."

"So they were all rapists, murderers and thugs. What a broad brush statement, made towards a group of people that were likely
drafted. One could make the same accusation against the Americans who are running the extra-judicial prison camp. However, there would be howling from the rooftops if one did so."

War is organized mass murder for political gain and profit. I think the idea of "the good war" or "the clean war" is a big part of the problem. In other words, if you don't like the idea of innocent people being killed, we must quit war, not perfect it. :hi:
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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Oh I agree. We must quit war indeed.
And prosecute Bush.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
7. The pilots?
Is the commander not to blame? The navigator? Spotter? Gunner? All of the above?
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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Sorry. I guess I am rather unspecific on that part.
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. All share in the blame
They may have been sent by the politicians, but it wasn't Bush, Cheney, or Rumsfeld who pulled the trigger and had an orgasmic experience while doing it.

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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I agree, and I noticed, however, that people blame the pilots over the commanders
I'd blame all of them and their trainers, but more importantly, the person who claimed he saw an "RPG" because that lie was the one that gave the commander the green light to allow them to shoot from the air.

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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. There was actually at least one RPG and one AK47 in the crowd.
Edited on Thu Apr-08-10 12:52 PM by ManiacJoe
This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is9sxRfU-ik @ 2:09.

(There was also lots of mistakenly ID-ed objects.) At the initial sighting, they were no where near the photographers. After the helo had circled the building, it is no longer clear who is with whom in the groups.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
8. for one thing I wonder what Schwarzkopf thinks about the rapists back home
would he mass murder all the rapists back in the U.S.? and there are a whole lot of them. He's making it sound like the Iraqi's are some kind of special beast that roams around raping, unlike us 'civilised' people, well that just ain't the truth. He's making them sound less than human, and thats not the truth either. Its lies and propaganda. Lets take some surveys and see how much rape is done by what armies. Is Schwartz really saying that american soliders are abov and beyong this kind of thing? well we all know better, don't we?

As lieful I'm sure as the fake Kuwaiti incubator story, that was PROVEN to be a lie but as the saying goes a lie makes it way around the world 3 times before the truth gets to put its pants on.
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coti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
9. "I suppose this is a point of view that one can hold."
LOL ;)

You sure you're not giving them too much credit?
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
13. That's ok, I remember some blaming the victims of 9/11 for the attacks
Saying America brought it on itself and therefore it was a justifiable action.

Those same people did not the pilots from other countries, but sure will ours...
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Correction
America brought it on itself, but the action wasn't justifiable. :-)
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