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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:32 PM
Original message
There's an odd feeling now in being a retired teacher at this forum.
And in the Democratic party.

And in this country now.

I was proud of what I did all those years. When people like me entered the teaching profession, we knew we would not get rich. And yes, it is a profession.

There was a sense of pride in our area in being a teacher. There was mostly a sense that we were appreciated for our education and for our work with students.

We continued our training all the time. Some of us took classes at nearby universities and colleges to keep up with the latest in information and teaching techniques. There was a very special pride in getting a graduate degree, and it was rewarded with respect and money.

The most heartbreaking thing I have noticed recently is that there are no Democrats standing up with teachers as they are being discredited. There are almost no Democrats standing up for a traditional public education which has been the backbone of this country.

They don't dare speak out even if they cared enough because they would be going against the party's policy.

So they are silent.

Actually right now as I write, the Florida Republicans are getting ready to make Florida a wasteland for teachers.

Senate Bill 6 subjects teachers to firing without cause at the end of each school year. Principals will be able to fire teachers at will. If a teacher disagrees with a principal on anything -- anything at all -- that teacher can be terminated, even if her students are successful based on test scores.

Graduate degrees will have no value. Senate Bill 6 forbids teachers from earning salary based on advanced degrees or credentials. The very professionals who are to encourage, mentor and develop students to be college-ready are now told that their education credentials are worth nothing. Is that the message we want to send to our children whom we want to see go on to college?


Experience doesn't count either. Now that is really strange. Practice and experience used to make one more skilled, but that appears not to apply to teachers.

There have been no loud Democratic voices opposing this terrible bill. Gubernatorial candidate Alex Sink says it is not a good bill, but she has failed to follow through and elaborate on it strongly.

From the same link...Reagan started the shameful attacks on teachers in order to prepare the ground for privatization.

He formed a Commission on Privatization in 1987:

President Reagan today appointed a commission to study ways Government functions can be turned over to private business.

Prof. David F. Linowes, a political economist at the University of Illinois, was named chairman of the President's Commission on Privatization, and said the 12-member panel's mandate ''is very broad.'' It will ''probe the entire dimension of Government operations'' and offer recommendations in six months, he said.

Mr. Reagan, vacationing at his ranch near here, issued a statement saying the commission would help him ''end unfair Government competition and return Government programs and assets to the American people.''

..."Professor Linowes, speaking to reporters here, said he could not predict what the commission might recommend. But he indicated that likely targets of study included Federal low-income housing projects. The Government has already given some prospective tenants vouchers to pay for low-income housing of their choice, rather than building new Federal housing units. A similar Administration idea, to distribute education vouchers so parents can send children to the school of their choice, has gone nowhere.


In Florida those vouchers are catching on and growing in number. My tax money sends tens of thousands to private schools, many to religious ones. It is considered okay now to do that.

Once I posted that there was under this administration a growing contempt for teachers.

That post angered people, but it was true.

Diane Ravitch answers a blogger

Hi, Fred,

I think that Bush wishes he could have imposed the agenda laid out in Race to the Top, but he would have had to fight against the Democrats in Congress. They would never have supported a plan that bribed states to lift the caps on charter schools–far too intrusive, and many would have seen this as privatization. Nor would they have supported a federal requirement that states remove any legal restriction on linking teacher evaluations to student test scores–not only because it is offensive to teachers, who know that they are not solely responsible for their students’ scores, but because the research does not support this idea.

So, do I think that Duncan is carrying forward Bush’s agenda? Yes, beyond the dreams of Margaret Spellings, and without the opposition of the Democrats in Congress.


But please, tell me, do you think I am wrong? Do you like the fact that a Democratic administration is promoting charters, private management, merit pay, and high-stakes testing for teachers?


I just quoted the assistant Secretary of Education under George HW Bush.

I am still proud to have been a teacher for over 3 decades. I touched the lives of a lot of children in ways that went far deeper than the scores on one test.

I am saddened to see the lack of respect for teachers at this and other Democratic forums.

We will hear tonight or tomorrow that Florida has passed its shameful bill. There will be too many who think the teachers deserve it, and too many who fail to see that education in Florida was just destroyed in every meaningful sense.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is a direct attack on yet another union
and people do not realize how that will affect THEIR working lives. Forget about their kids...

We are at a bad moment in History... a very bad moment.

:hug:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It's ok if it is a teachers' union.
Many who support other unions frown on ours. I have found that odd.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Think PATCO, people applauded that
Edited on Thu Apr-08-10 11:37 PM by nadinbrzezinski
And when the Auto Workers Union essentially had it's back broken last year.

No, this is a pattern, and people better wake up... or before they know it, we are going back to six day a week, twelve hour days, or worst...

Needed to edit
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. You may be right about that.
Edited on Thu Apr-08-10 11:38 PM by madfloridian
I remember when Reagan busted PATCO. I even remember the day.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Been studying on labor history
and a lot of the gains made, are slipping through. Partly people believe that they will NEVER ever get rid of the eight hour day, or minimum wage or all that. Think again, we're seeing it already...

I wonder if this generation of workers will just fold or fight?
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FLyellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. Me too. Those were not good days.nt
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
49. Corporate McPravda said people applauded that.
When We the People have the facts, it's a different story.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #49
248. And you'd be wrong, people I PERSONALLY knew at the time
applauded that.

It was them lazy air traffic controllers who should not defy Reagan. And for god sakes that was at a COLLEGE.

I was too young and new to have an opinion on the matter, just had a bad feeling about it.
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
93. We are at a 7-day work week
I know lots of people who work every day - on their days off, they work from home. The five-day work week is seriously compromised.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #93
249. fully agreed
and if we don't wake up. smell the coffee and DO SOMETHING about it. child labor is next.
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Scruffy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
112. And Patco endorsed Reagan
They were hoisted on their own petard.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
150. What do you mean "going back to?"
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 04:26 PM by wolfgangmo
Many folks, those that even have jobs, are already there. It might be in several jobs but most folks I know who are already working those hours.

Going back? Snort. We are already there and worse.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #150
250. We are nowhwere close where they want to go
child labor, work from sunup to sun down... OSHA? You shit me right?

Things are bad, but trust me on this, if we don't start doing something about it, things will get much, much worst.
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
226. bingo...
it is coming. Yeah, the rich want the workers of the world to all be on a level playing field- too bad the level is that of Chinese slave labor. "The Jungle" by Sinclair is a good indication of where we are heading (funny, he wrote another good book, "It Can't Happen Here)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #226
252. Actaully it is NOT china... they are way too expensive already
there are worst shit holes in the world where things like child labor are allowed, I mean it is in China, but at least it is not legal. These other shitholes have lower pay scales still and ALLOW CHILD LABOR...
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lark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
87. Very few people these days support unions
and I find that absolutely shameful. I am also very ashamed and appalled at the bill the pigs have put thru to gut the teachers union in FL. It's really like the FL. congress critters just hate teachers! It's absolutely one of the worst bills of all times

My daughter is in her Jr. year in college and she wants to be a French teacher. I am now encouraging her to go into a different field with her extensive knowledge of this language, since she would be so screwed if she became a teacher.

How much worse do they want education to be in our state? Actually, I really am sure they don't give a flip - they know this isn't going to help because that is not their aim. Their aim is to destroy the union, and have privatized education subsidized for the rich so the rest get sub-std. education and create a permanent "poor working" class of near slaves.





:cry:
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. Good points. nt
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #87
97. Most DUers don't support unions.
Hell, look at a parking lot for teachers -- Hondas and Toyotas galore. The UAW asked for the support of the American public for years and got told to fuck off, repeatedly.

White collar Americans derided unions and manual laborers for decades, telling them they needed to 'compete' better and reminding them that "buggywhip manufacturers went under too." But now that the college-educated are feeling the pinch of labor injustice all of a fucking sudden it's SUPPORT OUR UNIONS!!

I will support the teachers unions, because I love teachers. I just seriously fucking hope they learn a valuable lesson about Labor, and how it needs support at every level, not just when college-educated white collar workers ask.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #97
151. Good points,
And I would like to add that not all of us white collars are blind.

It is my contention that what you are remembering was the first of a system wide corporate propoganda machine. As we have noticed with the vastly inflated coverage and estimates of attendance of Teahadist rallies that the corporate media doesnt come close to telling the truth.

Unions forever. I am with you brother.
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ckimmy57 Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #97
219. I agree
also in our district and the surrounding ones 75-80% of the teachers are registered republicans. Then when it comes to their jobs all of a sudden they want the unions help. What the hell is ANY union employee doing being a registered republican? Go ahead and boo...I don't give a damn. It just irks the hell out of me. We had a damn auto plant to out here and some guy belly aching about losing his freakin job, shouting at the injustice of it all as he was getting into his HONDA...well what the hell did he expect? Freakin moron.
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djp2 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #219
318. Amen
and amen!
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #97
233. +1000
from the owner of two American built vehicles (plus a 1983 HD, also union built)
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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #97
269. absolutely. n/t
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #97
294. Not every parking lot for teachers are all hondas and toyotas...
In my neck o' the woods it is a toss up if the ford or chevy pick up is more popular with teachers.

Your experience, while valid, is not universal and should not be presented as such.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
149. Not so odd.
Consider this, Mad..

If you are in the auto union, or the electricians union, or the ... etc. then most folks will never had had a chance to have a bad experience with one of your union mates and usually not until they are an adult.

Mix in with that fact that kids are emotionally volatile and yet lack the experience and perspective to put such emotional turmoil into context.

Add a pinch of the fact that some folks don't seem to understand that their personal experience may not be, and is likely not, indicative of the profession as a whole.

Add a healthy dollop that some people had what they consider a really bad experience in school (valid or not) and you have lots of grown up still nursing a child's grudge against education.


Now sit back and have a martini and cry for the future of America. The boat is sinking and the ghost of Nero is fiddling while laughing his ass off.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. Florida better get ready for serious, severe and generational
mediocrity if this happens. No teacher with a clue will ever work there.
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FLyellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Link to live coverage of debate...
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
141. Sure, they will, in this economy. Who runs out of slaves?
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
153. No they won't.
Teachers can teach overseas, in the EU, in Canada, and in blue states (or non insane red ones). They have options.

Unfortunately many kids do not. So much for the meritocracy.
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Riley18 Donating Member (883 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
157. I think this whole crazy thing will spread to every state once Jeb wins this one.
Free public education is not something the elite value.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. +1
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. We are on our own
We have been sold down the river for corporate interests.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. some of us will fight with you.
you are not alone.

we may be few, but we will stand with you all the way.



Tansy Gold
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. k&r
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tnlefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
228. Hey Swamp Rat!
Good to see you! :hi:
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. Capitalism is an ideology that has no room for any autonomous labor unions.
What we are seeing is essentially a corporatist version of Stalinism in which entire social classes are repressed (wiped out) in the interests of an ideological elite. I think what they would like are fake unions like in the old USSR just to keep up a facade. The NEA and AFT are too independent and if there is one thing the corporatists CANNOT abide is Independent Thought!!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. If this was capitalism you'd have a point
but the third way has little in common with capitalism. Now it does have a lot in common with ... Fascism...

By the way European Nations ARE capitalists, in fact closer to what Adam Smith wrote in the Wealth. You tell me why do they have STRONG labor unions?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. The third way is fascism.
Many of today's European adherents won't say it though. But that is the ugly truth many Democrats won't come to grips with. It's nothing new, it's Mussolini's middle way.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
205. Yep and it is such a different animal from CLASSIC
Capitalism. It helps most people don't know the difference.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
74. You do realize that Fascism has Capitalism as its core economic ethos, right?
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 12:22 PM by liberation
I am just amazed by how easily Americans can be persuaded, that as soon as Capitalism starts to reach its ultimate consequences and its hubris is just too obvious to even pretend to ignore... that then it somehow stops being "capitalism" magically.


European nations have strong Unions because they had to learn the very very very hard way. Maybe this nation needs a similar shock in order to wake the hell up already.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #74
90. This nation won't wake up,
this country didn't suffer through the wars on their soil like the Europeans did.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #74
203. No it is not, it is a very different animal
by the way both capitalism and communism ARE ideal systems...

But the US has as much in common with Adam Smith as oh the USSR had with Marxism.

And it is time people realize that yes there IS a difference.

And try that propaganda line with somebody else.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #74
242. No it doesn't
Facism is at the opposite end of the economic spectrum from capitalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2d_political_spectrum.png
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
261. That is essentially what I am saying. It is State Capitalism
which can occur in Stalinist or Fascist versions. It can probably occur in monarchist societies too. The ruling doctrines are the same under the facade.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. The vote in FL may come early this morning. From 38 minutes ago....
http://www.wtsp.com/news/mostpop/story.aspx?storyid=129382&provider=top

"Update:Midnight

House legislators enter their 8th hour of debate over SB6/HB7189. The discussion on the floor began just before 5pm Thursday. There are about 20 more representatives left to speak before a vote can be taken.

Update:10:00pm

House representatives continue debating SB6/HB7189 on the House floor. Those in support of the bill say it will put the highest qualified teachers in the classroom and pay them for their work through merit pay. Those who oppose the say Florida will lose many of its best teachers. Some opponents worry the details of the bill haven't been worked out. Supporters say those details can be worked out after the bill is passed.

Update:6:45pm

House legislators take a break will return to chambers at 7:15pm.

You can follow the debate and listen for the vote by clicking below.

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/

Update:6:25

Tallahassee,Florida-House legislators have left for the end one of the most controversial education bills SB6/HB7189. The bill ties teacher salaries and evaluations to student test scores and eliminates teacher tenure."
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
13. Only a Democrat could have made this happen, this attitude
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 12:03 AM by sabrina 1
that teachers are the enemy. Now, the left is silent on the issue. When Bush tried it, at least there was support for teachers from the left.

Our corporate masters are getting better at pushing their agenda of privatizing everything. No longer do they depend on only the Republicans. They have figured out that the push-back from the left wasn't about principles after all. It was political. They realized that if they bought the Democratic Party, the left would stop protesting all these moves towards privatization, at least for long enough until the job was done.

Only a Democrat could have:

1)Lifted the ban on off-shore drilling.

2)Pushed through a bail-out of the predatory, for-profit, private insurance industry.

3)Lifted the ban on Political Assassinations

4)Escalated the War in Afghanistan

5)Bailed out Wall St. while telling Main St. to pull up their boot-straps

6)Installed De-regulators in the highest offices

Republicans were useful in pushing the agenda to a point, especially after 9/11. But their political capital was pretty much used up and there was still work to be done. So, they bought Democrats to finish the job.

My fear is, Social Security is the final prize. Just as Reagan set up as Commission on Education, Obama is setting up a Commission on Social Security.

The question is, when will ordinary Democrats have had enough and wake up and see what is happening? And when they do, where will they turn?

We so badly need a real Labor Movement in this country.

Teachers need to go on strike. A National Strike now, before it's too late.

NCLB was supported by Democrats. That bill was written by businessmen. No educators were involved in the writing of that bill. Many of Bush's friends in the educational publishing business have profited greatly from all those tests that are now mandatory. A lot of money is spent on education. Wherever there is public money, the predators can be found trying to get their hands on it.

I know what you mean, madfloridian, it's very sad to see 'progressives' supporting this war on teachers and the public schools, or at least defending the president. But it's sad to see how many issues they used to oppose, that they are now either defending, or are silent about. It's okay if a Democrat does it.



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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. There's still push back from the left...
What you have to realize is that the Democratic Party is not the left... not even close anymore. The mainstream of the party likes to heckle the likes of Kucinich in order to keep the left defensive of what little credibility it can muster with the rest of the party.

By the standards of 1990, Obama is a right wing Democrat.

The lack of any real Democratic push back is an indication that the left is no longer even worth throwing a bone to in the eyes of the Democratic Leadership... Rahm said so clearly... and the rank and file are so traumatized by the Bush legacy that they are too afraid of the "possible consequences" of sticking up for a mildly liberal set of policies, for fear of the prophesies of the likes of Rahm... easier to go rightist.

It's rather sad. Americans just don't care about their own interests... or we're just dumb... so let's victimize teachers... because that'll make us even dumber and even easier to manipulate... brilliant!!
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
161. Sometimes an outsider sees things more clearly that the person too close to be objective.
The view outside America is that all American politics is right wing. The democrats would be considered the right wing in most countries. The republicans would be in therapy and the teahadists would be in a rubber room.

America has no left wing. Even Kucinich (and God knows I love that man) would be considered right wing in many EU countries.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
91. Another much appreciated post, sabrina!
But there are Democrats then there are Democrats.
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
15. So they will be paying teachers by how their students score on their standardized tests
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 12:10 AM by gristy
Which is damn frightening. The teachers with the best and the brightest will get paid the most, so there will be the greatest competition for those jobs. And the teachers having those students who by aptitude or parental dis-involvement have no interest in learning will get paid the least. So the kids who need help the most will have the most unqualified help.

The smart get smarter and the dumb get dumber.
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Welcome to America. :(
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Standardized tests. This is about money.
NCLB which turned out educational system into a series of tests, with very little time for learning, made some of Bush's closest friends in the Educational Publishing business very, very wealthy.

This is not about children at all. Anyone with a single brain cell left functioning, knows that testing is useless as a means of educating anyone. I know so many good teachers who have quit the profession because of NCLB. There is simply no way that this system will produce an educated population, and it is a crime to see a Democratic administration pushing it, rather than reforming the whole system.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #15
32. How much are they going to pay the Art teacher?
Or the counselor?

No one can answer that.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
86. art teachers?..... surely you jest!
my friend who is a music teacher had her classes canceled and is now teaching english and math. her last math class was the minimum she needed to graduate. so 4 grade schools will be with out music and there will be kids being taught math by someone who is`t a math teacher.....only in america.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
162. Pay 'em?
They aren't even going to hire them.

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Klukie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #15
37. Well said
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
40. Teachers in schools with no language problems will always get paid.
Teachers in poverty areas will not make their quotas.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #40
168. Sure they will get paid.
If I was in an area where I could get all the kids and parents and teachers together and I was running things (and if I had a million dollars - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjvapPF8wlg ) I would run a wildly creative school which didn't give a rats ass about the test and taught the kids with teachers who were passionate and devoted to making a difference.


How would I get away with this? I would put all the kids in a room with the tests and then feed them the answers. You could devide them into teams that matched the statistical norms and instruct them when to answer correctly and when to answer incorrectly, announcing it by group. I suspect that if education gets bad enough that some districts or individual schools WILL start to do this just to survive.


Or maybe Canada can anex some of us as extra provinces or territories or something.
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onpatrol98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
17. I salute good K-12 teachers...
I don't know how they do it. In some countries military or civil service is required. I kind of wish people were required to teach a year or two. (Just kidding...somewhat)

What we're doing isn't working? Not every child has the same learning style or learns at the same rate. Perhaps this 22 children in a room with one teacher, using the same method, for every child technique simply isn't working.

Some of the elementary schools in my district don't even have walls. There are simply partitions separating the classes. The noise level is horrific. This wonderful 'no-wall' idea supposedly came out of someone's research years ago.

Me personally, I thought anyone with more than one child knew walls would be a good thing.

Maybe, we'll get a secretary of education...who's actually been an educator, or shucks...has actually attended a public school.

I love our President. I think he's done some great things, and will do many more great things. But, I am under no illusion that a man who has never attended a public school will have a great deal of empathy with public schools. In fact, I tend to find that some people who've attended only private schools are sometimes biased against them. They simply assume they're all inferior, by default.

To my mind, his secretary of education pick says a lot about how much he values public school OR HECK even private school educators...he didn't even bother to pick one.

I think I'm just going to disagree on this issue with this administration. But, I've never been impressed with how we've handled education in the US.
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Roon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
20. My sister was a teacher since turned principal
She is a dem. I respect her and am proud of her. That is all I have to say.
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FLyellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
22. FL bill passed 64-55. :(
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. Blah!
:nuke:
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ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. Damn, My Brother is a teacher in Fl, working on his masters, this where greed brings us
privatization is all about greed, just like globalization, and it will only serve to bring us back to the dark ages where only those of privilege and wealth could get ahead.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #22
51. I want to know what Democrats voted for it.
Or who at least made their voices heard loudly against it.
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cureautismnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #51
106. No Democrats voted for it.
I watched most of the debate on tv last night. The Dem.'s did us proud. Every single one stood up for teachers. If this isn't a wake-up call for conservative teachers to stop voting against their own self-interests, then I have no idea what will end their delusions. :shrug:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #106
115. Thanks, glad to hear it.
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dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
68. gross
I can't imagine how those teachers must be feeling today. The students deserve teachers who are able to teach to their needs - not to some test. The students deserve teachers who are innovative, thought provoking and excited about their jobs. Not this. This is harmful and flat out wrong.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
25. my kids have been in the system over a decade. i see what the teachers do. i see who is lacking.
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 06:30 AM by seabeyond
it isnt the teachers.

the failures should be squarely on the shouldder of those responsible because no matter what we do, if we dont address where the failure is, we will never find an appropriate solution. instead they will just fuck up the education for the students that are actually doing the work. i hope my kids get out before it gets too bad
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
175. I miss teaching but I just couldn't stand the BS anymore.
I am much happier running a medical office.

I got out of education despite being an award winning teacher who had front page stories written about his kids. I taught mostly in poor inner city and rural districts. But I also taught in an affluent suburb and the amount of corruption, graft, cronyism, incompetance, and mismanagement at all levels of administration is astounding. From the principals up to the school boards on the local level to the federal department of idiots, they were all making it as difficult as possible to do a decent job of teaching.

Sigh. It's frustrating. I also taught overseas where the administration kept to the background as saw themselves as mostly support staff for the teachers. Students were respectful but they were respectful because everyone was also respectful - they took their cues from society. It says a lot about American society given how our teacher are treated.
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #175
330. A GREAT post. How 'bout reprising it as an OP ?
Edited on Sun Apr-11-10 11:09 PM by Smarmie Doofus
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:40 AM
Response to Original message
27. Duncan came from a State with a glut of teacher candidates.
I, along with hundreds of others, went back to grad school to become I.S.B.E. certified educators, only to discover that there were many more newly certified teachers than there were available positions. This is not a situation in which the labor component has a strong position.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. That's not the case anymore
There is a serious teacher shortage in many states.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #34
58. No there isn't. There is still a giant glut of teachers, and it is worse
with all of the layoffs.

If there wasn't a giant glut, politicians and school districts wouldn't be treating teachers like shit.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #58
132. I've been teaching 30 years and they have always treated us like shit.
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 02:52 PM by proud2BlibKansan
The supply of replacement teachers doesn't have anything to do with how teachers are treated. They treat us like shit because we allow them to treat us like shit.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
159. You have been misinformed!
Illinois has a tremendous oversupply of teachers, as do other large population states. Schools of education graduate many more teachers than available positions. I repeat again, I am a State of Illinois certified teacher. In my district, for every elementary education position that does become open, there are 750 applicants.

I urge you to do some research on this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7013934

http://www.niu.edu/history/teacher_certification/Index/Tribune%20Too%20Many%20Teachers.pdf

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33892103/ns/business-careers/

http://www.eiaonline.com/intercepts/2009/11/23/its-a-teacher-glut-glut/

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/LAUSD%27S+RECRUITS+JOBLESS+TEACHER+GLUT+LEAVES+HUNDREDS...-a0107567028
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #159
172. That is one state
I said many states, not all.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
29. Teachers should just WALK OUT if Crist doesn't veto this...
There would be very little to lose by doing so...

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retread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
30. Straight out of the Freeman school of economics. These pirates do not believe in public education!!
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 07:41 AM by retread
They lack the courage to state their core beliefs publicly. This is the crap we get from them instead of an open honest debate. Make no mistake; their goal is elimination of public education.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
31. So what's the status on the bill, Mad?
We had a union meeting last night and I told everyone to read up on what's happening in Florida.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
33. OP drives a Toyota; told me she doesn't feel the need to support UAW,
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 07:52 AM by Romulox
because "she's had a couple bad experiences."

In other words, sounds like she's reaping the kind of "solidarity" that she sowed. :shrug:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. That argument is old and tired and pointless
And your post sounds a lot like an attack on a DUer.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. I find it sad that "solidarity" is a verboten topic on threads urging support for a union
"And your post sounds a lot like an attack on a DUer. "

Actually, the OP went out of her way to mention her vehicle of choice to me when I was urging solidarity on another thread; I don't know her in real life!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. You find the thread or I will. You are not telling the truth.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #42
108. Not telling the truth about what, specifically? You admit to driving a Toyota a couple posts down..
:shrug:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #108
119. This: you said OP " told me she doesn't feel the need to support UAW,"
That is not true by any stretch of the imagination.

It is dishonest.

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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
121. When are you going to stop stalking on this?
It is getting old.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #121
186. They won't stop.
As long as they are allowed it will continue.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #33
41. Not true. Hubby and I are both union members. I never said that, not true.
You should be ashamed of using that same argument over and over.

Now you run along and find the thread you speak of...or I will. I found it be better car.

What a specious argument.

I drove a Chrysler for years, found the Toyota much better. Still do in spite of it all.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #41
46. Last GM I drove was a piece of shit
And since I'm a teacher I can't afford to throw my money away on a piece of shit. Hubby and I are both union members and drove nothing but American cars for 25 years. Then we both ended up with worthless high maintenance vehicles. We bought a Honda and a Toyota and have been very pleased.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #46
99. Last teacher I had was a piece of shit.
And can't afford to throw away my education on a piece of shit. Maybe a non-unionized teaching force will compete harder for my sainted educational dollar.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #99
129. Maybe you should find a foreign teacher
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #129
131. Nahh. I'll stick to my union teachers.
Even if they don't understand solidarity, I do. I just hope the next time the UFCW is on strike they remember how they called on others to support their union.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #131
164. Foreign teachers are union members too
We have several in our district. They are more likely to join the union than the teachers who are natives.
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #99
145. Good luck....
finding one when they aren't going to be compensated for their tenure or their level of education.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #99
181. Interesting point.
But I would like to point out that it is not a valid comparison to compare years of bad vehicles (not the union fault!) from the domestic 3 with education. You can't point to a similar period of time when education as a whole for the nation was crappy.

FYI - I drive a ford NOW and I love it. Great car, reliable, and good mileage. Proundly union made. But I also own a toyota truck from the 80's with 500,000 miles on it that is still running. Face it the Japanese companies sandbagged the US ones. And it isn't as if they didn't see it coming. Heck Toyota tried for decades to get the big 3 to listen. ( http://www.nummi.com/ )

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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #46
111. Why shouldn't the same consumerist argument you make apply to teachers?
:shrug:
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #111
122. Students are not products
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #111
130. Because children aren't cars
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tranche Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #41
70. Didn't Toyota move their factories south to get away from the Unions?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #70
200. a lot good that did
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #33
54. I am sad you posted this untruth about me.
But it seems to be okay. :shrug:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #54
109. What "untruth"? You admit to driving a Toyota in this very thread.
Nobody would know what kind of car you drive if you hadn't brought it up. :wtf:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #109
174. But the UAW approves of the Toyota Corolla
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #174
208. 2010 models were made at the NUMMI plant.
2011 models won't be on the UAW list.

It is not me who needs to read, sir.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #208
251. And you aren't the one I was replying to
:crazy:
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #251
253. Public discussion forum.
Just clarifying a point. You'll survive.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #253
267. "It is not me who needs to read, sir."
You aren't the one I said who needs to read.

But if it fits, I know several good teachers I can refer. :)
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #267
276. Hoist with my own petard.
I concede the match to you, sir -- and well played!

I'll just be over in the corner trying on my new hat. :dunce:
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #33
55. Not suprising
I asked her in another thread whether she drives a union made vehicle and I got no answer.

I guess it's only teacher unions that matter.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #55
139. If someone does not own a car, can they support the autoworker unions?
At best, autoworker unions are of a private entity, teacher unions are of public COMMONS.

Can one be accused of not supporting teacher's unions if they send their children to private schools?

All ridiculous, silliness. I grew up in MI. I know how people there used to think of those who drive non-American brands. Go watch Roger & Me and tell me how badly that makes you want to buy a car. Or go watch Who Killed the Electric Car. You may not support those companies yet still support labor movements.

All this For or Against Us thinking is foolishness to extreme.

Breakthrough the foolishness. I honestly get what you are saying but there is more complexity.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #139
183. No, not what I said.
Supporting companies that have located their factories in the south so they can say we "employ Americans too" but still avoid the unions is the issue. These unions have built the middle class and have been thrown under the bus. I watched has many people on DU waited with glee for GM/Chrysler to go under. I don't think the argument that people are turning on only the teacher unions is valid.

I've seen both movies. GM is a corporation (just like Toyota) and doesn't care about people (just like Toyota). That's why Toyota also destroyed the RAV 4 EVs as they came off their leases.

BTW, I support the teacher unions. Many of the things going on with public education are worrisome. I was simply pointing out that the OPers was being hypocritical in criticizing people for supposedly not supporting all unions when she doesn't support all unions herself.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #183
197. WRT hypocrisy charge. If someone does not own a car, can they support the autoworker unions?
At best, autoworker unions are of a private entity, teacher unions are of public COMMONS.

Can one be accused of not supporting teacher's unions if they send their children to private schools?

Maybe there should be an OBVIOUS stamp on those cars that really were built with American union parts and American union assembly. Buying an American brand does not necessarily equal supporting an American union but of course you know that.

The hypocrisy you are calling out is not obvious or even make any sense.

Unions are democracy in the workplace. I have never heard Mad argue against that. I support democracy in the workplace always but some union leaders do sell out their union members, does that draw into question my support? If I buy a product from one company and not another, does the one I didn't buy from mean I am against their union? I really get the feelings you are expressing, I grew up with them. And those American car companies fled and destroyed the lives of my family members who worked their entire lives in related industries, mostly parts manufacturing. This may come across mean, but you are really going to have to flesh out your argument better because it is probably having an opposite effect than what you would probably intend.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #197
204. There's nothing wrong with my argument
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 06:42 PM by blue_onyx
You are picking and choosing which unions deserve unconditional support:

Private unions = ok to not support them
Public unions = must support them, no matter what

I really take offense to your "going to have to flesh out your argument better" comment. It is not having the "opposite effect" that I intended. Maybe it's you that has a comprehension problem. My argument is very simply:

Drive a non-union vehicle = you don't support auto unions.

It's really that simply.

BTW...I never said anything about buying an American vehicles.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #204
214. It is not persuasive and is representative of For or Against Us type thinking
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 07:14 PM by Mithreal
We may be experiencing a failure to communicate.

The commons, you betcha, you better be supporting. The unions are warning you that public education is at stake. American manufacturing is an entirely different problem.

Maybe we should mandate people only buy union products?

Someone can buy a union vehicle, even work for the union and still PISS on unions. You must know people who work for unions but all they do is complain and talk stupid about the union but all they need do is own a product? Is that person supporting unions? By your definition, yes, indeedy.

If I don't own a union vehicle does that mean I don't support the union? By your definition, absolutely. Well, what if I owned union products in the past and intend to buy one on the future? What if my union vehicle was given me or I bought one used? If I buy a used car, am I also not supporting unions because it wasn't new and a good supporter would buy a new one?

What happens if the vehicle I wanted, you know styling and features wasn't union made? What am I supposed to do? What if I also love the environment and am concerned about global warming and buy a prius or something like that that came over from Japan? Now I supported the environment but screwed the union? What if I intend my next vehicle to be a union made one but your silliness just makes me want to change my mind in disgust at the foolishness of your argument, not gonna happen, but I have seen weird responses. There are so many factors that go into supporting or not supporting. Obviously the only one that matters is Do you now and have you always only ever bought union made?

Your argument makes sense to you, I get that. Maybe there are degrees of support, no? Maybe whether you own or do not own says nothing about your support either.

I am saying your argument is over-simplification. But you know what, if that is the way you want to see support and lack of support why should I care except for you propagating that type of thinking, that I do care about. Divide, divide, divide.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #139
187. +1 the best response yet
We need to be working together. I think that if we stop for a moment and write down what is most important to us and what we really support then we will all find that our lists are pretty much the same.

I support unions but I also have a toyota truck (purchased in college at an auction). I was a teacher but I agree that there are bad ones out there. I don't assume that my experience is the only valid one. We are a multiplicity but we all share the same humanity. We just need to remember.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #187
316. Indeed
and thanks for the kind words too.
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #55
143. Calling BS on your argument...
Just because someone is a member of a union does not require that they buy union made products; AND likewise, just because someone is not a member of a union, or never a member of a union does not mean that they don't support unions.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #143
184. That's not what I said
The person I was referring to feels that she is supportive of the UAW despite the fact that she doesn't buy UAW made vehicles.
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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #184
258. I follow your argument and totally get what you are saying.
It is about solidarity.

One can be for Public Education, against vouchers, vote for every levy that comes to the ballot and still not support the teachers' union.

And you can change the for and against in any manner and it can still be true - it is not mutually exclusive.

So if the argument boils down to support for the teachers union or not.. the question of solidarity is certainly a valid one.

The major purchase of a vehicle IS INDEED a perception to many of one's solidarity with the UAW. That cannot be denied.

I think you have a valid point. I do think that one can support Unions - all Unions and still make purchases or support policies that are perceived by the respective Unions as non-support. However, I feel continued dialog and explanation on how our actions translate to support is important.

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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
201. what's this, the new anti-union bullshit meme? You can own whatever you want and still
support a group you agree with or believe in. What a stupid way to try to dismiss someone... duh!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #33
63. OP drives a Toyota. She and hubby are both union members.
I resent this very much.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #63
98. Is it a UAW Toyota?
If not, why should anyone hold your union in higher regard than you've held the UAW? :shrug:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #63
110. "Solidarity" is the basis of the union movement. "Support MY union; I won't support YOURS"
is a bad argument. :hi:
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #110
123. For us or against us. Let it go already.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #63
128. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
38. Well, here's one who has great respect for teachers.

I couldn't do your job, and my hat's off to those who can.




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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
39. I am sorry madfloridian
:(
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
43. I can define that odd feeling. It is one of betrayal.
At least, that's how I feel about it.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. Yes, betrayal is a good word.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #43
53. Pretty much every Democratic constituency is feeling it lately.
I don't think there's a single one that hasn't gotten kicked in the ass yet.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #53
137. Is there one that's been kicked as hard? nt
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
188. To clarify.
Could you say who you consider to be the betrayer?

The feeling is good, but I would prefer to have a target for my feelings toward duplicitous two faced snakes. Ahem. (steps off soap box)
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #188
291. The Democrats, in Congress and in the voting booth,
Edited on Sat Apr-10-10 09:42 AM by LWolf
that have turned their back on labor and on public education to embrace privatization and corporate toadying.

The members of this supposedly "left-wing" discussion forum who spout the rhetoric of privatizers and corporate stooges because they elected one to the white house.

I expect it from Republicans. When Democrats join them, I am betrayed.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #291
298. Thanks
And I agree. I beleive the old phrase for who you are describing would be "wolves in sheeps clothing."
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
44. As Bob Dylan once sang
Ring them bells from the sanctuaries / Cross the valleys and streams / For they're deep and they're wide / And the world's on its side / And time is running backwards...

:evilfrown:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. "and time is running backwards.."
"Ring them bells for the blind and the deaf,
Ring them bells for all of us who are left,
Ring them bells for the chosen few
Who will judge the many when the game is through.
Ring them bells, for the time that flies,
For the child that cries
When innocence dies.

Ring them bells St. Catherine
From the top of the room,
Ring them from the fortress
For the lilies that bloom.
Oh the lines are long
And the fighting is strong
And they're breaking down the distance
Between right and wrong."

http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/3530822107858643190/
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
94. One of the best songs Dylan has written and painfully relevant today.
And they're breaking down the distance
Between right and wrong.

Indeed...
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
45. Your service to the country is as great as any veterans, in my opinion.
I wish that were the nation's opinion.

Thank you for that service.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
47. I know exactly how you feel
All these so called union supporting Democrats stabbing UAW workers in the back by buying Asian cars, which caused an unexpected retirement 10 years earlier than I planned.

The parking lots of the so called union supporting professionals are filled with foreign cars.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #47
56. Ummm...
You may want to read comment 33.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #56
62. Hubby and I are both union members. Always have been.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #47
61. The car one drives does not equate to supporting teachers
or American workers.

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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #61
64. The car one drives....
does equate to auto union support.

Drive a non-union vehicle = don't support auto unions.

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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #61
104. Wait? WHAT?
How does driving a non-union car equate to anything BUT not supporting unionized auto workers?!

If you buy a Toyota made in a non-union plant in the South you've directly supported UNION-BUSTING! You've made a decision and a statement that UAW labor is not important enough to support, but then decry some other form of union-busting when it affects YOU.

Why is your union more important than the UAW? :shrug: Why should a blue-collar worker concern herself with your union when you've told her union to fuck off? A VERY simple question.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #104
134. What if you drive a Ford made in Mexico?
Or a Toyota made at a union plant?

What if your American car is full of foreign parts?

This buy American cars / support unions argument doesn't work anymore.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #134
135. I said nothing about "American." I buy cars endorsed by the UAW.
That includes some foreign makes that are produced in UAW plants. It's not nearly as complicated as you make it out to be.

2010 UAW Cars, Trucks, SUVs, and Vans:
http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2010/index.cfm

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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #135
239. Only UAW? The men and women of the IG Metall are in some way not good enough for you?
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #135
279. Cool. My faux toyota is on the list
So my Toyota designed car was badged by and all but disowned by Pontiac, made by UAW(cool) and recalled by GM when it turned out Toyota dropped the ball on the whole acceleration issue. But the GM tech's dont know the right type of oil to put in it, and Toyota does.

Damn. That car's gotta be nearly as confused as I am.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #134
136. Toyota closed its only union plant
You either support auto unions or you don't. You've made it clear where you stand. Apparently only the unions you care about matter.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #136
166. So why is the UAW endorsing the Toyota Corolla?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #166
173. Good point.
:)
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #166
185. Because it was made in Toyota's only union plant in CA
That plant closed and the Corolla likely won't be endorsed in future years.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #166
209. Because it was built at NUMMI
The last one just rolled off the line a few weeks back.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #61
127. You're right
It shows non-support.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #61
190. And yet our actions speak much louder than our words.
Yes I have purchased a toyota in the past. But I made sure it was one that was actually made in Japan in a shop that, while not union, at least treated it's employees as if it were unionized.

ANd I do not, nor will I ever step foot in a Walmart for the damage they have done to this country in terms of accelerating offshoring of manufactoring jobs by forcing manufacturing companies to always lower their price and quality.

I think we can find common ground here. Mad - you can admit that they have at least a partial point in that the lowering of sales in the US lead to the loss of union jobs and the weakening of the union movement as a whole. And all the rest of y'all can admit that Mad is passionate about unions even if she owns a Toyota.

Can't we just all get along. Sigh.
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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #61
268. It does equate to supporting Union Auto Workers
to many people. Perhaps you should try to understand that rather than just refute it. It does matter to many people!
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
77. Listen to the This American Life episode about the Nummi plant
American cars were SHIT before they teamed up with Toyota and used some of their techniques. And the unions were at least partially to blame.

The fact it, most American cars are still crappy, at least in comparison to others. And they are turning out large numbers of gas-guzzlers, because it is the only thing they do well. Small American cars ARE shit; the only one worth a damn was Saturn before GM ruined it.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #77
103. You do realize Toyota makes gas guzzlers?
The vehicles from US automakers are not shit. It's also not the 70/80s. You may want to check out the news if you want to see the truth about Toyota "quality."
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #77
105. Most small "American" cars aren't UAW cars. nt
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #77
299. I don't think that most American cars are still crappy.
I have a ford focus and it is wonderful.
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freebrew Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #47
96. I would support American cars, except:
the F-150 I bought came with a Mazda Transmission, the truck was assembled in Mexico.
I had a Lincoln for a little while, every time I took it to the shop, it got a new problem.
I own a POS Mercury, not many miles, the transmission is shot, cost more to fix or replace than the whole car is worth.
My son owns a Mazda pickup, everything on it is FORD, what person in his right mind can come up with this non-union crap as posted above? What so-called American car can be bought that is actually made in the USA?

Even Harley-Davidson motorcycles are only assembled here, the parts come in from somewhere in Asia.

If all the dues union members paid went to defend the unions, things might be better.
From my point of view, the unions are the mafia.
As for the teachers union, my wife works as a non-degreed support staff, the union in which she pays dues won't even negotiate a raise for her or her peers, and the administrator tells her to go back to school if she wants a raise. Yet, NO ONE can deal with the kids and parents as well as she does.

Our school system sucks, teachers in our school are mostly R's and don't see any problems with * and they hate Obama.

Go Figure!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
52. Congrats to Arne Duncan and Obama....FL just sold its soul for your money.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
57. Teachers truly are under fire in this nation and I'm trying to figure out when the shift started
Who began the meme that our nation's educational problems stem from the teachers?

It had to be a Rethug I'm thinking. Instead of addressing the fundamental issues for children from poverty, from crime-ridden areas, from foreign language speaking homes etc.etc., and how those issues impact their ability to be effective students, there's now a collective attack on the teachers. That would appear to be a Rethug viewpoint rather than a Dem POV who'd be cognizant of the underprivileged students instead of simply focusing on teachers as the bad actors in national performance slides. And what about educational policies? Who sets those? Not the teachers but yet they are blamed for these policies' failures.

It's just wrong on so many levels.

This appears (imho) to be independent of the union busting that's also another facet of this whole fiasco.

I really hate seeing the hate on DU and in the broader world for teachers. It's not fair. I have the utmost respect for all of you and I'm sorry to see this truly noble profession taken down.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. A Nation at Risk, 1983
It was the blueprint for the wholesale destruction of public education, and it was full of LIES.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #57
300. Easy Answer - Reagan did it.
"Who began the meme that our nation's educational problems stem from the teachers? "

Reagan - he was a union buster. Early on he used his job as president of the actors guild to spy for McCarthy and blackball artists. Bad actor. Raided social security. Spent money like a drunk sailor on shore leave.

If I were in charge I would make it part of every swearing in ceremony for high public office to take a piss on his grave. He ruined this country and we are still picking up the pieces (or heading downhill depending on your point of view).
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
60. Union busting, plain and simple. It's not just for republicons anymore. n/t
:kick: & R

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
65. Apparently I have no credibility on education because I drive a Toyota.
Apparently that is all that means anything now. All the years of teaching all the classes taken, all the kids taught...mean not a damn thing according to this post because I drive a Toyota.

That is the tone of discussion now when a heartfelt post is written.

That is level of discussion now.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. It has nothing to do with your credibility on education
People keep bring up that you drive a Toyota because you are making it an issue. You keep talking about how people are supportive of other unions but not teacher unions. It's a standard you hold others to but not yourself. If you don't drive a union made vehicle, then you are not supporting auto unions. There's no way around that.

I don't think it's your credibility on education people are questioning. It's whether you support all unions (an issue you have brought up on many occasions). If you didn't keep accusing people of not support all unions, your support of other unions wouldn't be such an issue.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #71
79. A lie was posted above about what I said. You are feeding on it.
And it is diverting attention.

I also notice new folks coming in to admonish me.

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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #79
100. What about you....
owning a non-union made Toyota is a lie?
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #71
107. My dad was a Michigan teacher and our family always buys new American cars
I do see a double standard sometimes with the auto unions. Sadly, as with other rights that get chipped away at, the gutting of the UAW took a long time to get reflected in society at large. It is getting reflected now - car companies can't compete because foreign companies have essentially been given subsidies, plants in Canada are more competitive because they aren't getting hammered with health care costs, and the retirement costs of the subsidized Japanese companies are going to be picked up by the American taxpayers pretty soon.

MadFloridian, I like you, I always read and recommend your posts, you are totally fighting the good fight as far as teachers go, but the truth about the car companies is that foreign companies have received de facto subsidies for years from our government, which their own governments have not reciprocated (for example, when Japan had its own cash for clunkers program, buyers were not permitted to buy American cars - whereas in the US, that was not the case). Foreign car companies got huge incentives to enter the US markets. I'd also like to point out that when Ralph Nader hammered the US companies on safety issues, it set the US small-car market back. Then, when Honda introduced its first Civic, a VERY unsafe car, Nader didn't make a peep.

It's frustrating.
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tranche Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. You're trying to tie something your Republican led stinkhole of a state did to one man (Obama).
No wonder many here are mocking this OP. You let this thing devolve into this. No wonder people are pointing out the hypocrisy of your driving a union busting Toyota all over town. Or did Obama make you buy that too?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Obama backs Arne Duncan on this. It is his plan.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #65
78. They are just sidetracking.
They want to attack you but don't want themselves attacked. If you were supposed to be bad because you didn't seem to support the UAW, aren't they just as bad for not supporting the teachers union? Poor logic on their parts to label themselves as anit-union.

My point is that it is not really a union issue. It is an education issue. It's not even a teacher issue. It's an education issue.

The sad part is that so many DUers don't support unions and don't support teachers. But the worst part is that they just don't give a crap about what is happening to their children.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. I know what they are doing.
Note the new folks joining in.

A family member is UAW, we are both union members.

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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #78
101. Why do you assume...
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 01:36 PM by blue_onyx
that because people point out the OPers hypocrisy that they don't support teacher unions?
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #101
117. Note the mote before the log.
The OP is about schools being corporatized.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #117
133. The thread is also about...
the support of teachers and unions.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #133
156. So crap on the children
so that you can wield your only hammer an the only nails you see.

Start another thread. Support UAW in a thread and I'll be there. I won't be jumping in to whine that you didn't support us here.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #156
171. Where did I "crap on the children?"
The OPer is the one who made comments about how horrible it is that people supposedly don't support teacher unions but do support other unions. I make no apology for pointing out this hypocrisy. If you can't see how her lack of support for the UAW relates to this thread, then that's your issue.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #171
289. That's how you crap on the children.
You are more interested in getting your "revenge" or being holier than MF than you are about the problems with schools. Instead of building solidarity, you want to bully your way into a thread, hijack it for some past offense to you in another thread, and carry on a one-man vigilante attack. So you get to vent your spleen even though it may blunt the message of the OP about the problems of a fellow union and the problems of this administration going after a union and turning schools corporate. Care to explain how your personal snit will help either issue? If you cared about union solidarity you would take your beef to another thread. You don't like MF. Big deal. Study a little history and learn how unions work. Because you have a beef with a single person in another union, you want to stop a decent rant about what is happening to that union. Not supportive of the union idea.

So go ahead and get your personal feelings assuaged. But don't say you are doing it for the unions.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #289
297. There's no bullying going on
I responded to comments, including comments from the OPer about others supposedly not supporting her preferred unions. Apparently we're not allowed to respond to all aspects of a thread.


"If you cared about union solidarity"

If the OPer cared about solidarity, she would purchase a union vehicle. Apparently, she doesn't have to support all unions, but everyone else must support the unions she find important (which I do btw).

I have a problem with someone posting threads chastising others for not supporting teachers to her satisfaction.....especially when other posters bring up the fact that she isn't even capable of passing her own union purity test. We're just suppose to overlook this hypocrisy? Please. If she is going to criticize other people, she should she capable of taking criticism too.

If anyone if letting personal feelings get in the way, it's you. You've gone through this thread, defending the OPer and her hypocrisy as if she was your child. Your friendship is clearly clouding your judgment.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #297
306. For solidarity, let it go, man. Let it go.
You can carp. You can nit pick. You can do all that you want. But don't pretend it's for some noble reason. You crapped on the thread. You tried to give the unions busters cover. You walked all around the issues because you can only see what is important to you.

My feelings aren't for the OP. They are for the children and the teachers that you don't give a flying crap about as long as you can carry on a vendetta. Who died and made you the big old sheriff of what's right and not?

My position is the same. You crapped all over this issue, but when you (if you) ever have a thread about supporting your personal union and your personal right to work, I'll be there supporting that. That's what solidarity is about.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #306
309. I hope you were looking in a mirror when you typed this message
Edited on Sat Apr-10-10 04:23 PM by blue_onyx
Who made me the "big old sheriff?" You're the one telling people what is and is not acceptable to discuss.

I don't belong to a union. Never have. I, however, support all unions. Good to know you would support auto unions if there was a thread about them. Hopefully your actions (the vehicles you purchase) reflect what you say.

I have no vendetta. Pointing out someone's hypocrisy isn't a vendetta. It seems you're the one giving cover to union busters by trying to make my opinion seem personally motivated (it's not).

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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #309
312. Okay. The Hypocrisy Sheriff.
Just what did you hope to accomplish for education and for teacher unions by jumping in here? How do you find attacking a poster who is writing about union busting and corporate take over of schools to help either issue? Does it not seem more prudent (and less personally motivated) to write your own post and decry those who don't support unions than to sully a post about a union with a personal attack?

Talk about hypocrisy.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #312
313. There's nothing hypocritical about it
This poster was making a thread which talked about the lack of support for teacher unions and made comments about how people support other unions but not the teachers. The fact that she's not consistent with her own standard goes to the core of her post. If she's going to write a thread about the lack of union support and chastise others for not supporting unions, her support of unions is relevant to the discussion.

ONCE AGAIN, POINTING OUT HYPOCRISY IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK. Feel free to use the "alert" button on my comments that were personally attacking anyone.


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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #313
322. Do you not understand or not want to understand?
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #156
225. Bullshit
Most of the arguments here regarding Charter schools have never been about education. It's about union positions. First and foremost.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #225
290. So you want to bust up the unions?
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #290
301. No. There's enough on here who have tried their best to do it
To the UAW. Drive by a school parking lot.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #301
307. That attitude is exactly what kills unions.
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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
66. "...the guy is on the right track, and his (Education) Secretary is as well."---Jeb Bush, Oct 8, '09
When Obama's educational policies are effusively praised by Jeb Bush, it's an ominous sign. Public education is deteriorating to life support.


That quote is from this thread.


I agree with your sentiments, madfloridian.

It's an entirely different existence for the country, now that 'the dirty thirty' (my term) years since Reagan were never rectified, prosecutions never brought and secrets remained hidden. Slowly and methodically, the radical right wing has consolidated its power over media, big business, government and foreign policy.

What is left is a shell of what America once was. And it's because the dwindling honest few left in positions of power are pushed aside when they attempt to represent the interests of the people who elected them.


Now, as a people, we are truly on our own. Because, in the last thirty years, no one in power believed in or pursued accountability for these bad actors.



That is the bitter lesson that many have yet to grasp.





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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
67. madfloridian, you're a treasure
k&r
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dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
69. thank you madfloridian
for keeping us informed. k & r
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mainstreetonce Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
73. Surprised to read
I am surprised to read a criticism that you think no one of this forum defends teachers. I am a retired teacher and the I just started reading DU a few weeks ago. The first threads I read about education were supportive of teachers and decried the new proposals that would not reward experience and continued education.
I was almost going to post something that was exactly the opposite of what you said. I was going to post about how pleased I was to see so many from DU supporting teachers.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Maybe it's because I drive a Toyota.
Maybe it's because it's me.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #76
302. I agree with you and with most of your posts.
But I have to say MF that you are both defensive and you seem to take criticism personally. Your defence is usually to go on the offence. While you may feel that you have to respond to personal attacks in order to "stand up" for yourself, but you don't. You can just respond to the arguments and not the arguer.

Mostly I agree with you but I do think that you do, from time to time, live up to your name or initials.

Do you think that it might be possible that you contribute in some small way to the response to your posts? As people we can only control our response, no matter how much we would like to control the other persons.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:14 PM
Original message
Stick around and you'll see
Welcome to DU :hi:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
81. GOP has put ignorance + anti-intellectualism back in style . . .!!
Intelligence, education, experience, knowledge -- all out of style!!

Aggression, violence, cheating, scams, election steals -- all in style!!

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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
82. If I were a teacher in FL,
I would seriously consider moving to another state.

That bill sounds like something written in 1936 Germany.

How teachers have become the new Scapegoats is a mystery to me...except to say that parents are no longer taking responsibility for their children and are blaming the teachers???

I guess it's just part of the plan by TPTB to end Public Education in this country. It will be Public Brainwashing from now on...with lots of religious stuff included and no analytic thinking skills taught.

Unbelievable. I'm glad you're retired, but I'm sure this bugs you to no end.

It's yet another step toward the decline of this rotting empire.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #82
231. You should see MI.
We have thousands upon thousands of laid off UAW members. Want to know why?
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #231
240. Because they make crap cars?
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #240
246. Maybe the workers had an education
in public schools and can't perform as required.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #231
285. Answer: Because the executives made lousy decisions
about which cars they were willing to build.

In answer to your statement/query: You should see MI. We have thousands upon thousands of laid off UAW members. Want to know why?
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mimitabby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
83. not true
there are many of us who support teachers.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
84. It's not a union issue.
This post isn't about the OP but about the hijacking that is taking place. Like unions, don't like unions. Drive a Ford, drive a Honda. That's not the point.

This attack is about corporatizing our schools. It is about people who have no interest in improving or supporting learning convincing people in power (people who know nothing about how to teach) that schools are broken. They aren't broken. Even the bogus indicators that they use to say they are broken will not be helped by any of the "innovative" practices that are being put in place. The only thing the actions of this administration will do for education is turn it into a profit flow for corporate interests.

In just two years, the Obama administration will have accomplished the neocon dream that 20 years of republicans couldn't do. Under reagan, bush I, and bush II, this would have only been a dream.

DU needs to wake up. Even heroes have flaws. If Obama is your hero, this is his kryptonite. This is where he needs help. When he was inaugurated, he said he wanted us to tell him when we thought he was wrong. The OP says DUers "don't dare speak out even if they cared enough because they would be going against the party's policy."

Well, this is the time to help the party by being heard. This is wrong. There is no way to make a good policy by joining hands with neocon chester finn and republican ghoul newt gingrich. The is no way that following their advice about how to deal with our children can be a good thing.

If you care about our children, about our party, about our president, you will need to stand up now. Support the president on this and you serve him very, very badly.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Thanks. Gingrich's dream of free market schools is coming true now.
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bullsnarfle Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #84
95. Exactly
Exactly. Too many folks here are busy rearranging their own particular union deck chairs, while in the meantime florida's teachers and, (perhaps even more importantly?) CHILDREN, are getting tossed under a train.

Goodtime Charlie (Crist) is waffling, may not sign the damn thing after all. I think he is beginning to smell the "concession speech" coffee, what with Rubio's hot breath on the back of his neck; can't afford to piss off any more voters, even teachers. If a few more good pushes will get the SOB to veto this sucker, then we need to give it our best shot.

Light him up, people! Please?

http://civicconcern.org/news/governor_crist_hints_that_he_is_considering_veto_of_sb_6/



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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #84
124. +1
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #84
146. dead-on
I believe he's with the corporations on this, though, as he was with healthcare.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
88. Tell me again the one about Obama
being a liberal socialist. I want to hear that one again.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
92. Yes, I do care.

I do not know what to do. Right now, I'm in poverty, and it's taking every minute I have to try to get out of it.

I thank you for reporting on the racket that our education system is being turned into. The breaking of the teachers unions, and the scandals of education reform are reasons why I'm not very supportive of Obama.

Not to get off-topic, but the main reasons are much more serious: his disregard for rights, his initiative to extend and institutionalize unconstitutional presidential powers, and his ordering the assassination of an American citizen.

There's about nothing I can do about any of them, except vote against him, IN THE PRIMARIES.
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cureautismnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
102. The Florida Supreme Court could rebuff this attack on teachers.
If Crist-R signs it, I think the next step should be the Florida Supreme Court, which struck down private school vouchers in 2006. There are 3 liberal justices appointed by former Gov. Lawton Chiles-D still on the court. Gov. Crist appointed the last judge, who happens to be a Democrat(!). I wouldn't be surprised if SB 6 is ruled unconstitutional on a 4-3 or 5-2 vote. :fingerscrossed:
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tosh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #102
113. :fingerscrossed:
with you.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
114. Well here's one Democrat who thinks Obama is wrong, and I support teachers 100%.
:hi:
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #114
125. +1
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voteearlyvoteoften Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
116. Don't lose heart
Keep up the good fight mad flo...we need your input.
My daughter has been planning for years to attend ucf and become an elementary teacher. She is a junior in high school and may have to rethink her entire future. We need teachers to encourage creativity and thinking outside the lines. Not taught to the test future corporate robots.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #116
118. Some here suggest leaving Florida.
The problem is that that won't matter in five years with the way this is going. Our elected Democrats are letting, even helping, this happen.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #118
120. They are in fact paying MILLIONS to get it to happen.
But the lies being told about me in this thread indicate that there is no understanding of the fact that our schools are being hijacked by corporations with the cooperation of our party.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #120
126. It's not that they don't understand.
They just don't care about it enough to understand.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #126
138. Or they have too much invested in Obama
to realize he is stabbing millions of people in the back--students and teachers.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
140. This is the only industrialized nation where education and educators aren't revered.
:cry:
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #140
142. We are industrialized---or were---but we hate the non-rich.
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Fruittree Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
144. Although I commend you for your teaching experience -
It's a hard job and definitely deserves respect, not everyone can do it in the environment found in schools today but - please realize that it's tough for everyone right now, union and non-union. People with advanced degrees are working in grocery stores and Walmarts. Where my husband works there have been layers of lay-offs. It's not just about unions and it's not just about teachers and it's not just about one group of people - it's across the board and at least those who are unionized make better wages and have a bit of a cushion and protection. Those of us making $15/hr. or less are most vulnerable and think of all the kids graduating college into this job environment - All that potential and nowhere to go. I think we need to stick together and not assume the worst about each other or about Obama - The educational system and the economic system are both broken and it's a thankless job to try to fix it - We all need to be as flexible as we can and not try to hold onto our own little piece of the pie at someone elses expense. Sorry for rambling on but I have a son graduating college and I'm scared for him... ..
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #144
154. Two things.
First, it's not about the teachers. Teachers are the flashy villain the right wing is holding up for your consideration while they turn public schools into corporate entities. If this administration is helping to do that, they are either unfit for their job or they are in with the corporatists. I cannot find a third way to look at this because what they are doing to schools is just wrong. They dangle the teachers and the unions as bait, a flashy target for love or hate, while in the background they turn the keys over to corporations. It's about children. It's about any chance the country has to work out of its current mess.

Second, I'm afraid you are wrong. The education system is not broken. At least not until the neocons get a complete hold of it. I could spend several hours with the facts and statistics and analysis to support this, but you can do yourself a favor and get a copy of "Manufactured Crisis" by Dave Berliner and Bruce Biddle. There are lots and lots of resources that will prove the point, but this book will be the shortest way to understand the con game being played on the public about education.

I guess there is a last part too. The way to solve our problems is not to join together to split what crumbs the rich will let fall from their pie. Telling one group that you can't support them because they make more than $15 an hour isn't the way to go and it certainly won't make the world better for you son. He will have to combat the growing influence of the neocon movement which is hell-bent on eliminating the middle class and returning us to the days of the robber barons and working poor. Being flexible is just what a robber baron needs his workers to be, and I doubt that is the life you want for your son.
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Fruittree Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #154
165. As far as the education system being broken and my
opinion on that - it's not based on books or statistics but rather on my experience going to school in an inner city area. It was awful to put it mildly - I would have welcomed any escape - "corporatist" or not. I just wanted to feel safe and supported and as if someone believed in me. That was a child's point of view..
Further, I'm not saying I can't support someone because they make more than me but I do believe that in order to survive,we are going to have to be flexible and understand each other - Those of us with the lower incomes pay taxes which suppport teacher salaries and I'm in no way saying that teachers should not be making a living wage but what I am saying is that, in response to the original post, it's not just teachers struggling - we all are and sometimes we have to give in order to help another. That said, I do not want to see schools taken over by private entities or become for profit institutions. In that sense, I fully support the public school system but going back to my experience - the public school system as it is, isn't always working..
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #165
169. Your "experience" means nothing in this. You are NOT an expert.
Your experience has NOTHING whatever to do with what is going on with public education--and the neoliberal agenda is WORLDWIDE, by the way. They want to destroy ALL public services, and why is that? Because they are PUBLIC. It has nothing to do with real or imagined problems with public education.

Teachers or former teachers are REALLY the only ones who know this system, the politics of it, the gross imbalance of power in this system, but they are usually afraid to speak out.
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Fruittree Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #169
177. Were you replying to me? I'm never sure -
If so, please define "expert" and tell me how many people on this forum then qualify to speak?
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #165
199. Your experience is a view shared
by many because of the problems that schools must deal with. Schools are a reflection of society. If you were in a troubled neighborhood, you would have troubled schools. No corporate input is going to help that. The only thing that ameliorates those types of school problems are more support and caring teachers. The system described in the OP will only exacerbate the problems since it will produce a system where teachers fight to get into the neighborhoods where they will make more money with less work. The profession will cater to those who game the system and ignore the problems of students. Having seen first hand how they work, I can guarantee you that the corporate school will not care one whit about he child's point of view.

Again. All of this is flash and deception. As they bleed the schools for resources and talent, the neocon hucksters point to teachers as the culprit. They spend huge amounts of tax money on testing programs, huge amounts. This money is taken from other programs and buildings and teaching positions. The tests themselves are bogus. They don't measure what they say they do and they limit the curriculum to tinier and tinier elements of learning.

I know you have an opinion that comes from one point of view. I would suggest reading the book I suggested to widen your point of view. It is not meant to invalidate your opinion but to show the reasoning for another.
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Fruittree Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #199
218. Absolutely not do I believe a corporate school system would be
automatically better than a public school system - what I do believe though is that what's happening in schools isn't working and maybe rather than immediately oppose all change, we need to have a calm conversation where all points of view are valid and not presume that those who think differently are wrong or uncaring. That is not the case here. I knew and know good teachers - I also see things in schools that didn't work in my neighborhood and don't work in the "good" neighborhood where my kids went to school. One thing I don't agree with is more testing - that just narrows learning to a point where it's hardly learning at all. I don't understand this part of the overall plan but I also see how we're just such a big country that things get standardized unfortunately.

The bottom line to me is to not presume, not demonize others and remain open to change - what matters in the end is making sure every child has a chance at a good future. If that means one type of school for one place and another type for another then so be it.. Also, and I admit this is part of it - I get really tired of the blame Obama chant that seems to go through here constantly.

I will look for the book you mention - Thank you for your point of view.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #218
295. I think you and I agree on more than it seems.
Edited on Sat Apr-10-10 10:01 AM by Jakes Progress
I don't think the OP is about opposing change. MF has mentioned the innovative methodology and structural adaptations she used in school. The changes that we are protesting are changes that would make all schools the same - lock step the teachers, students, and curriculum into methods devised by people a long way from the children. They will favor methods and materials that cost the least and can be made to look good through public relations. That is one of the reasons they like the tests.

I know this from working for 30 years at local, state, and national levels in education. I have worked with the charter movement schools. I bought into them until I saw on a large scale what happens with innovation. It is dumped when the good stuff costs money. Large districts like to keep a few innovative charters around to blunt the influence of very active parents. If those parent's kids get into those schools, they stop agitating for more change. They got what they wanted for their kids. Same thing happens with charismatic teachers who stand up for change. Give them a little building to do their thing in, and the drive for real change goes away.

Testing is the key to the corporatization of schools. It is easy to sell simple numbers like 84% or 36%. The real work is harder to explain so it gets lost.

No one really says that schools don't need to change. I once worked for a few years in a rich public school. 100% of the kids went to college. Multiple merit scholars. Of course it helped that almost every kid there had two parents and even grandparents with college degrees. (Educational level of the mother is one of the leading indicators for probability of success in education for children.) But this school had a dynamic and very gifted principal (a rarity) who told the school it needed to change. His argument was that they could get better. If you want to improve, you have to change. You can't change by staying the same.

But the things that many of us are complaining about in the administration's education plan are things that are simply wrong for children and for learning. Too many of them are simply the same programs that very conservative, very corporate republicans have been selling for years. They are things that democrats would never let a republican president do. Why Obama has fallen under the sway of these educational charlatans is puzzling. Feeling betrayed is why some want to say that he is just one of them. It has to be that he is either that or very naive and trusting of the wrong people. I mean, newt gingrich. I think the best thing we can do for the president is let him know that we don't agree with him on this issue. He asked us to do that at his inauguration. The corporatists like to make it a teacher thing for a union thing so that they can brush away the protests by saying how those people are only looking after themselves. The ones that are looking after themselves are the corporate raiders looking to rake in billions and billions of tax dollars for their companies. As far a looking out for ones self. I spent thirty years doing what I thought was my purpose. Twice I left the field to do something else. In both cases I doubled my salary in less than six months. In both cases, I left the more profitable jobs to go back to teaching. It was what I was made to do.

Now from retirement, I am saddened and often angered by how well the corporate movement is achieving its goal of turning our schools in to profit streams. So forgive us if we are bitter that one of our own, one I personally gave some money and a great deal of time to, is in charge while the schools are being sacked.

(Check the library for the Berliner and Biddle book.)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #144
167. My friend, they are playing our fears to turn schools over to corporations.
And it is working. Just as it was planned by Reagan years ago....to privatize everything

When you turn education over to private companies, you also turn the agenda for learning over to them with no regulation.

They are using the assumption of not letting a good crisis go to waste....and we are all sitting back and letting them do it.

Do not pretend Obama is an innocent in this. He campaigned on charter schools, and he was right out in the open about it.


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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #167
176. We let them privatize war and all it did was embolden the profiteers.
Profits weren't going to just make themselves.
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Fruittree Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #167
182. Hello - and thank you for your polite reply -
I don't agree with your opinion of Obama but I do agree 100% that I do not want to see the public school system replaced with a private entity. However, I am open to other models of schools based on each communities needs and yes I also agree that teachers within schools deserve respect - certainly more than they often get. At the same time, I think some people who are teachers maybe shouldn't be... ...
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #182
192. Those "other models" have been co-opted by the corporate world for profit.
What started out as an idea to have creative education models has been hijacked.

I was a creative teacher, and a good one.

We had other models of learning all in our one school. We had self-contained classrooms for those who needed it...we had special ed classes trying different modes of learning.

All within one building...all public. All supported by taxpayers.

Then when Jeb came they started taking money away, and teachers here remained silent because they loved Jeb.

This is Jeb's revenge for their loyalty.

And Obama and Arne are seeing it to through to completion.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
147. I have to object to a little bit of that
"we knew we would not get rich."

Yet I am guessing that you did okay and that your pension is now more than I make for working at my job. I also guess that you made far more money in 25 years of teaching than I have since graduating from college in 1985 and working a series of dead-end drudge jobs and having no idea how to find a better job that I was supposedly qualified for (unlike if I had continued in education it would be a simple matter of applying to school districts for teaching jobs) and moving here and there trying to find a job with benefits and making a mere $267,145 in 25 years of work.

Some of the resentment of teachers may come from the fact that teachers do make better money than much of the working class.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #147
158. Teaching jobs are not that easy to come by and why didn't you then?
If it's such a simple matter?

The resentment comes from people not knowing who is to blame for crashing the middle class and 30+ years of conservative economic policies.

Now we have a "liberal" President and both houses of Congress, just proves "liberals" can't govern either. Wouldn't it be nice if we got some of those liberal economic policies instead of blaming teachers for your problems?
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #147
163. They should make more money than the rest of the working class
It should be extremely competitive to get a job as a teacher so that only the best and the brightest are selected. That's what they do in pretty much every other industrialized nation and that is how they can provide a first rate education to every child.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #147
263. Or you and some others lacked some skills that are not the fault of teachers.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
148. Don't look now, but this tactic is used across all prefessions, and even citizens
This is a proven way to minimize anyone that sees the world differently from the masses, or may somehow have information, skills and knowledge that can disrupt the status quo.

It is used by lawyers to diminish testimony fro Plaintiff's, by arbitrarily calling them "Unqualified" to make statements regarding a case, just forcing the hiring or more easily shaped "Experts" that may or may not have the required skills.

As long as people put up with this sort of exclusion in regards to the knowledge, wisdom and skills they develop throughout our lives, we will see these continued attacks against common sense, and American will continue to abdicate their skills to the so called "Experts".

Unfortunately, the only way that this behavior will ever stop is wehn people stop seeing life and an eternal struggle for a paycheck, and just focus of working for the joy of working. Sadly, people are so conditioned that the only way to survive is to get pigeonholed into working for someone else, that they lose sight of the fact that it is very easy and inexpensive to sive simply and provide for ones own needs when given the time to actually think about things, instead of being pulled in so many directions at once that the current economy demands.

If education is turning into another hellish work environment, then people should quit en masse and see what fills the void.

Kids can read books, and Home schooling is a viable option, as long as the Government doesn't MANDATE schooling in the public system. Unfortunately, we see "Mandates" becoming prevalent, and if the current mandate for health insurance under penalty of law isn't a scary harbinger of things to come, then I don't know what is...



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Turk 182 Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
152. I am a retired teacher in New York
and I'm fighting back the only way I can; with my wallet. I got a renewal notice from the DNC last week. I sent it back sans cash with a rather caustic note as to why I would only support specific candidates who supported a REAL liberal agenda, and how utterly dissapointed I was with Obama's policies on many things including public education and teachers. I absolutely refuse to give any money to the Democratic party in general.
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Riley18 Donating Member (883 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
155. I have noticed the same thing. Even Grayson was more caught up in the
quack doctor in Mt. Dora. No mention of our educations system being gutted by the government. I have to blame all of them for this horrible bill. Why aren't they on TV talking about what the Republicans are doing? It is like we do not even count as people. This is what the Air Traffic Controllers must have felt like when Reagan's handlers took their lives away.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #155
160. Grayson isn't perfect. He won't solve this. Only we can.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
170. Pol Pot is alive and well.
Who thought that Florida would begin to look like Cambodia?
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Saboburns Donating Member (690 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
178. I am an 18 year Public School teaching vet.
The lack of support on this forum is heartbreaking.

By far, the best people I know, the best people I've met are public school teachers.

I know exactly what the OP means.
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DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
179. I for one, stand with you
And that is not just because I am in Florida, nor because I was a substitute teacher.

Heck,when I was a substitute, I used to get picked on a lot by some teachers, especially if they were the rare few that actually DID deserve a little more scrutiny. But the creeps know how to hide, and no amount of gutting the rights of good teachers will fix that, especially when the REAL issue is never dealt with INCOMPETENT ADMINS AND THREADBARE SCHOOL BUDGETS!

As far why so many here are cheering this on a supposedly democratic forum, well, I have some answers, and it will probably get me in trouble. I might as well say it anyway.

NOTE: I am NOT, repeat, NOT saying everyone on DU is a certain way, but there are certain types I have seen here that I think add to the problem, some intentionally, some not meaning to. Theses folks are Dempocrats, but there is an issue that the opponents of education exploit in them to get their way.

One: some people here have bad memories of school. They were the nonconformists, and they see Teachers as the bad people that got in their way. Some of them even have an attitude about it, like they were the rebels that stick it to the man, and to them, teachers are the man.

Two: some people here are the opposite, they are Christians on the center-left side, and they see Teachers as being the ones that took values out of the schools. They are the ones that feel that if Religion is let back in, the schools will improve. Some will say that is more of a GOP issue; I offer Al Sharpton as an example otherwise.

Three: Some people here do not plan to have kids, indeed, some think that having kids is a bad idea and should be discouraged anyway. Some people are even bitter at the idea of having children, because some idiots made them feel less valued because they chose not to. These folks are resentful that their tax dollars are feeding other people's kids. Yes, population is a concern, but not educating those here would not help.


These are just examples, but the main thing is that people have taken education for granted. Yes, there IS a reason why, in big cities and small towns, many immigrants seem to get more out of school than the native counterparts, it is because they do NOT have illusions about what is at stake here: power. If public education goes, the churches will be able to define who gets power and who does not. They will likely use Obama as the war cry: never again to let an uppity brown skinned person get too far out of place.


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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
180. This thread proves my point.
"We will hear tonight or tomorrow that Florida has passed its shameful bill. There will be too many who think the teachers deserve it, and too many who fail to see that education in Florida was just destroyed in every meaningful sense."

The lack of respect for educators shows clearly.

The Democratic party leaders are allowing teachers to be treated like this, in fact encouraging it by giving money to states to follow their bidding.



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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
189. Of course I support public education, but something's definitely wrong with the system.
We are turning out generations of ignorant people, and that's like kryptonite to democracy. I'm not blaming teachers, but whatever has to be done really has to be done. And I do think that poor teachers should be fired. It's obviously not the teachers union's job to worry about kids or anything but negotiating the best deals they can for teachers, which is why their agenda may or may not coincide with the best plan for educating kids.

I don't hate teachers, of course. But I also don't automatically revere them. If they're good at making kids smarter, then they are giants among men. If not, they should either become better or find another avenue of employment.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #189
207. Shallow thinking. And focusing on the bad teacher is rightwing meme.
Conservatives and their policies always focus upon the bad individual.

Liberals and Progressives focus more upon the situational factors and that most people are good and given opportunity and support will more often succeed.

Rightwingers are anti-union and at all costs avoid situational factors and target teachers and their unions.

Why the resistance to looking deeper at this? Why are Dems doing what Republicans would never dare because a healthy Democratic Party would fight back? You saw the op. It was Bush's pick leveling that charge. What does that mean? The Dem Party has lost its way if it ever had one.

Charter schools underperform public schools, you know, the same charter schools we just can't get enough of now. How come you don't hear about all the successes of public schools and innovation? Think money and our media have something to do with that? There's gold in them thar hills, and if you didn't know, by hills I mean the public schools.

"We must set high standards for our children, but we must also hold ourselves accountable–our schools, our teachers, our parents, business leaders, our community and our elected leaders." 2008 platform

Accountability is only for teachers, am I right? Go into school districts and just fire them wholesale. The unions won't know what hit them. They can always reapply for their jobs even if, what is it, 50% can't by law be rehired if I heard and remember correctly. Let's not understand who is at fault. We can dismantle public schools and unions while all of us remember the one or two bad teachers we had and be grateful for our 21st century feudalism.

"We must set high standards for our children, but we must also hold ourselves accountable–our schools, our teachers, our parents, business leaders, our community and our elected leaders." 2008 platform

We are more like Reagan's party every day. Don't buy into Republican framing for the sake of students and public education.

"We must set high standards for our children, but we must also hold ourselves accountable–our schools, our teachers, our parents, business leaders, our community and our elected leaders." 2008 platform

OURSELVES, OURSELVES, OURSELVES.

Nevermind, just teachers.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #189
223. Uh, the day you actually work in the system is the day you can really understand it
at all.

Reading 24/7 propaganda from the media and the White House doesn't cut it.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #189
284. I don't think teachers MAKE kids smarter
nor that they should really, even if they could. In the beginning, a kid is a natural learner. It crawls all over the place and looks at and touches everything and puts it in his/her mouth. The kid learns how to walk and talk, two fairly sophisticated tasks, without all that much urging or teaching. Later a parent or older sibling or daycare worker might teach the kid how to play checkers or read or ride a bike. Gasp! Without any certifications or lesson plans!

It is the student who learns more than it is the teacher who teaches. Not to take anything away from my teachers, but it was I, the student who had to pay attention in class and take notes and read the books and work the problems and study the notes and make outlines. Sure, I probably was taught various study techniques - like making outlines, but the best teacher in the world is not gonna teach very much if I, the student, do not put in some effort.

This is kinda the way we view teaching though, that we MAKE these students do the horrible, unpleasant task of learning. We force them to learn. One of our key methods is punishment. There is very little reward for good grades, other than parental approval, so much for UNconditional love from them, eh. Except for a few students who choose to compete academically, the primary motivation is fear. Fear of flunking. Learn this quadratic formula crap or repeat the seventh grade again and have all of your friends leave you behind, and your new classmates know you as "a failure who flunked the seventh grade".

At some point, the infant who loves to explore and learn on his/her own then sees learning as no more fun than the average visit to the dentist - for most kids. I don't think teachers are the primary problem in this system.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #284
314. Part of the problem is the fact that the US curriculum is over 120 years old.
Around 1890 a group of professors were gathered together to set high school standards in the US. Those standards were based on what college professors wanted entering university students to know. This was at a time when 5% of students went to college.

And the basics of the curriculum has not changed since. If we are going to look at the system then we should challenge ALL of the assumptions. Science curriculums need to be updated as do many others. We should also look at the basic balance of readin', writin', math, and football that seems to dominate most school curriculums.

Maybe the greeks had it right. Maybe we need to go back to having a balance between science, literature, athletics and arts. Maybe we should chuck all of that and find another balance.

There are many current and former teachers on this forum. What do you think? There are also tradesmen and scientists. What do you think is important?


Let me start. I think we should have athletics, but we should work on de-emphasizing organized team sports to the extent that we currently do. Teaching kids how to be healthy for life is MUCH more important that teaching them how to do a pick and roll so they are prepared for the football squad. I think we should spend more time of art and that it should be integrated into the academic curriculum so that it reflects and enforces what kids are already learning in the sciences and literature (etc) forcing the kids to consider their lessons in a new light. I think we need to revamp science education to reflect current understanding of sciences, de-emphasizing the current emphasis on reductionist theories (nature is not reduced to simple formula - it is wonderfully complex), and I think that literature should spend as much time writing and performing written work as studying it.

However I am open to other ideas and eagerly look forward to hearing yours.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
191. Wow 18 unrecs at 6:50 pm.
That's a lot.

:(

General Discussion
There's an odd feeling now in being a retired teacher at this forum.
136 recs : By madfloridian

(From the top tens just recs)

Not a popular subject.
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n.michigan Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #191
254. NEA newsletter urges call senators re grim jobs picture?- STRIKE NOW

NEA is disturbing in its obfuscation. NOTHING ON RACE TO THE TOP

Gag me, its twisted- but read: Arne Duncan Speaks: Elevating the Teaching Profession

About teachers today not having the respect they deserve as professionals? Why? Duncan blames it on a broken system of "industrial/factory" education model in which we are... stuck.

There is nothing about the traditional model of education-knowledge- education for its own sake, a haven and a sanctuary for learning. Tenure was designed to prohibit political actions within education that would compromise knowledge for its own sake. TRUTH. Teaching young people to know, choose, relish learning and admire the educators who gave them so much choice and thrilled their brains with the challenge and satisfaction. Nothing factory about that Duncan. You wouldn't understand real quality, cooperation, understanding and real joy, since you are destroying the very atmosphere of education with your shallow marketplace ideals. Not full of pushy partisan agendas-because truth was the goal, impartial knowledge. Teachers had honor, tenure and a "educational space" safe from the imposition of untruths and ruthless commercial agendas or philosophies.

What motivates Mr. Duncan...privatization. Check him/it out on the Internet.

I doubt Duncan's students will be smart liberal thinkers, fully rounded, thoughtful, humane citizens of the US in the future. His fascist treatment of teachers is fraught with disrespect for their education, autonomy and independence. In fact he seeks to remove that respect and all control- what he would not dare do to most male professionals. Could that be something? More female teachers so this is ok? Damn.
He wouldn't ever try this on the "doctors" or the "lawyers" much less the "bankers and accountants" or the noteworthy "politicians" who have engendered so much turmoil for their self serving goals.

You can Google it.





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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #254
262. First thing they did was get their own folks into union leadership...
I remember how the AARP did the same in 2003 when we were fighting the Medicare drug bill which was privatizing a part of Medicare. Their leader supported the move, and it did not matter what the members said.

You make some very important points..good post.
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djp2 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #191
319. I think it is time
to list who Recs and who Unrecs...I think it would show up those Repug lurkers who are always voting the Repug party line in the discussions..I'll bet it is always the same group of persons who Unrecs everything to do with unions, etc.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
193. God Bless you Madflo and thank you for your service! This is so depressing I have no words to
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 06:00 PM by saracat
express my shame and the utter revulsion I feel for those that would defend what is happening.The ageless line, "Have you know shame? " seems applicable here. I am a Democrat but the new element of the party does not seem liberal or progressive at all to me.So far, it has been very Republican in its goals.
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
194. Madfloridian, I have watched your posts for a long time and want to
extend my hand in friendship.

What is happening in Florida at this point is nucking futz, but the powers that be want to funnel off as many tax dollars as they can to their "voucher" programs and religious home schooling.

Wethatcare have lost this state. It never was that good a place but since jeb took his dump here, it hasn't been much of anything.

Sadly the teachers got the boot from these republicans that demanded a degree for a person to sit on the Public Service Commission. This is just another nail in the coffin.

I haven't much more to say except that I respect you.

Peace
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #194
266. That was nice, thank you.
Yes, it is nutz.

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LarryNM Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
195. Just an Idea
If this voucher thing goes through or becomes inevitable, couldn't the UAW and other Progressive organizations Form and Operate schools? Couldn't unions try to Unionize private schools? Most of the early labor movement and battles were in the private sector.
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #195
210. Maybe not enough private school teachers...
...who would want to unionize though.

An awful lot of the private school teachers I've encountered are militantly against the unions. Often they see their private system as vastly superior and blame unions for the poor state of many public school systems.

I really don't know if the majority of private school teachers think that way though.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #195
315. The problem with your idea...
As good as it sounds is that charter schools can form, disband and reform easily. Public schools cannot.

And the people who run or who sieze control of charter schools will use this flexability to close any school that unionizes. Think of Walmart as a model for what is to come in education in the US.

Old man in vest: "Good morning, welcome to WalSchool. Can I help you find your class? On isle 3 is the latest selection of "god rode a velociraptor" textbooks, only 15.99. Walschools, always the lowest expectations, always."
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #315
317. Way ahead of you there...
Exhibit A - my sig line. :evilgrin:
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
196. Late this afternoon I walked to several of my neighbors houses...
knocked on their doors and asked them to please call Gov. Crist's office and tell him to veto SB 6. All of them were appalled at the obnoxious audacity of the FL legislature and said they'd do it.

BTW, his answering machine seems full so keep calling until you get someone. This fight is NOT over!
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
198. I am a Democrat who values and respects teachers ....
I think what is happening in Florida and the trend to privatize public education all over the country is disastrous. I got an excellent education in the public schools when I was growing up and I had some remarkable teachers. They loved what they were doing, they helped build enthusiasm for learning and they were and are one of our most valuable national resources. I have spoken out for teachers several times on this board, and I will continue to speak out for teachers and good public education.

It is really stealing our futures to take away good pubic schools with broad based curriculums. Who wants citizens who are proficient in someone else's religion but who do not understand science or math? Where will all of the different points of view we were exposed to in public school come from? We need educated citizens, not people who have only been exposed to a narrow range of subjects which they can parrot back on standardized government mandated tests. Tests given in the schools by the teachers based on what they have been teaching can measure how well the lessons are being received, but boiler plate nation wide tests should not measure how well children learn or how well teachers teach. Many people learn well but do not test well, as I have pointed out before. Our teachers are educated, continue to educate themselves and care enough about children to put aside jobs that would pay them a lot more. Given the greed is good climate we are living in that makes them indispensable.

You can measure your accomplishments over the years by the number of lives you have touched and improved with your knowledge and skills. That is lot more than many of us can do, and I admire you for it.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
202. you know why right wingers hate teachers, especially union ones?
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 06:31 PM by fascisthunter
Because they are free to teach facts rather than some warped ideology to keep people stupid and brainwashed... they don't teach right wing idiocy because it is idiocy and they hate that. They want to force everyone to live the way they do or else... sound extreme, they are, just like the fucking nazis.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #202
211. Unions are democracy in the workplace and all democracy is bad.
God has twice blessed the fabulously wealthy who are more fit to govern.

The Free Market is god.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #202
257. I think you nailed it! n/t
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #202
325. Yes. And why are Democrats joining them? nt
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craigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
206. Very sad but true. The democratic party has turned its back on labor unions, environmentalists, and
teachers lately. They might as well be repubs on these issues. Speciffically concerning teachers they're making it much harder for them to make a living ans state governments don't help. This race to the top thing is only slightly better than NCLB at least he's not punishing schools and teachers as much but the idea is just wrong headed. Obama should fire Duncan and give the Sec of Ed job to somebody who actually taught instead of someone who was in administration. Alot of the problem with these kids is the parents not doing their part anyway.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
212. I write my elected reps, and my newspaper, some responses indicate concern
too. But this is so dangerous to me, and that Democrats are doing it, seems surreal.

Can American institutions survive the Bush era, and now a centrist? I keep hoping that Obama's presidency
will pave the way for a progressive.


Anyone else find it bizarre that Justice Stevens is considered a liberal, despite who nominated him? That's how far right
we have gone in our politics.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
213. It is a very sad state of affairs..and when it all comes to pass, there will be those crying out..
"WHY DIDN'T ANYONE SAY SOMETHING!! WHY DID NO ONE TRY TO STOP THEM!!??
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
215. Welcome to how the rest of us live
I'm sorry if I'm not more sympathetic, but I've been working for 21 years in jobs where I could be fired at the whim of my boss.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #215
216. What a progressive argument!!
Since I'm treated like shit, everyone should be.

:sarcasm:
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #216
217. Except I'm not treated like shit
In fact, I'm treated rather well and make pretty good money.

I wonder why that is? :sarcasm:
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Riley18 Donating Member (883 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #217
221. That is because you work with a product that you control. Teachers do not
have control over their students. We cannot tell parents to turn of the TV, stop keeping the kids up late at night, do not get arrested for illegal activities in the home, send the kid to school on time, etc. That does not even address I.Q. or what went on prenatal. In other words, teachers could take a test on their practice to prove they know what they are doing. Oh wait, we already did that to get certified in the first place. There is also National Board Certification which many teachers have earned which proves a clear, concise, and consistent knowledge of curriculum and student needs.

This is not about teacher quality anyway. These politicians have one goal, and that is to end free public education. There is money to be made which the greedy politicians intend to spread around to their friends.

The only way teachers are free to educate children is to have some degree of job security. Otherwise, we work at the whim of politicians and administrators. Many teachers have advanced degrees that would make them more expendable in a tight budget situation. There would be no reason to keep experienced teachers who earn a little more money. We are also wiser to their bullshit which makes us somewhat harder to "manage" because we have the knowledge and security to speak up when necessary.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #221
234. Same is true of doctors
They do not control their patients. They cannot force them to take their medication, eat right and exercise regularly. And yet doctors make lots of money and are well respected.

I wonder why that is? :sarcasm:

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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #234
236. Doctors are paid for their services even if the outcome is bad
I wonder why that is? :sarcasm:
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #236
274. A very, very good question
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 10:54 PM by Nederland
Now, what is the one big difference between the health care field and the field of education? Hmmmmmmm...

I'm sure if you think about it, you'll realize what it is.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #274
296. Actually, no, you've got nothing but excuses and nonsense.
I wonder why that is. :sarcasm:

I apologize for sounding uncivil but you've got nothing. If you did, you could explain it.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #234
245. Because doctors historically were men and teachers were historically women.
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 09:17 PM by Catshrink
Female dominated professions have lower salary bases than male. Teachers have more education hours than physicians after a few years but still are paid less.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #245
247. +1
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #245
272. Missing the point
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 10:58 PM by Nederland
The point is that education is no different from health care with regard to having control over its subjects, and yet nurses (a primarily female occupation) make much more than teachers and are probably more respected to boot.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #217
230. I guess your employer ignores your attitude.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #230
237. What attitude?
The attitude that says I don't think I'm entitled to anything and that if I want to keep my job I better be good at it? I'm pretty sure my boss likes my attitude, precisely because it is realistic.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #237
241. Not entitled to anything?
Do you realize how much like a conservative you sound?

Are you entitled to safe working conditions?
Are you entitled to be paid for the time you work?
Are you entitled to sick leave?
Are you entitled to health care?
Are you entitled to overtime pay if you work more than 40 hours?
Are you entitled to be free of harassment?
Are you entitled to...

I could go on and on.

Is that what we are talking about, better be good at it? You and your employer can probably agree on what it means to be good at your job, no?

Earlier you mentioned being fired on a whim unless I misremember. That is what a union can offer, some basic protection from moods or whims.

If I was your employer I would like your attitude too because you make it easy. Good for you. The world is a better place because of your vision. I get it that it works for you. Thank unions for many of the benefits you are entitled by the way, but seem ashamed to recognize or maybe you're just proud and self made?

Realistic? :sarcasm: Yeah your forgot the sarcasm that time.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #241
280. You're living in the past
You are correct, unions did a lot of good at one point in time. They pushed for changes that we all benefit from today. But all of those achievements happened decades ago. At some point union workers started to demand that the rest of America pay more for products so they could enjoy higher salaries and extravagant benefits that the rest of us didn't get. In the end, the health care benefits that union workers at GM received added $5,000 to the price of every car. The rest of America, many of whom had no health insurance whatsoever, wondered why they should pay for this extra expense just so a small handful of unionized auto workers could benefit. Unlike in the past when union gains spread out to the rest of the workforce and everyone benefited, union gains were being made at the expense of everyone else. To add insult to injury, when people started to buy non-American cars that were cheaper and better made, unions had the audacity to call them un-American, as if all of America somehow owed them. You say I sound like a conservative. Tell me, does the idea that 98% of America should pay extra so 2% of America can have it better off sound more like a Democratic idea or a Republican one?
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #280
293. That's all horseshit. I wish I could sound less uncivil but it is what it is.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #237
282. Yeah, yopu sound like a real gem. Probably taught yourself all you know....
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #217
244. That's easy. You aren't a teacher.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #244
277. I see
So the reason I'm not treated like shit is I'm not a teacher, and the reason teachers are treated like shit is because they are teachers.

You really have a gift for explaining why things are they way they are, don't you?
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #215
220. The day you do a more important job than teachers is the day I will feel a bit sorry for you.
n/t
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #215
227. Hilarious. That is what makes unions a little different.
They can protect Americans from the "whims" of your boss.

I am almost angry by your comment, good going.

Crush all unions so the American worker will be as anxious as Nederland. It's only fair.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #227
238. Really?
How's all that "protection" working out for the employees of GM?

The idea that your job is safe no matter what is a myth. The best way to protect yourself is to make sure that you can do what other people are willing to pay money for. Work hard. Educate yourself. Be someone that other people want to give money to. The idea that job security can be gained by joining an organization is laughable.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #238
243. Really? Yes it is the union's fault, our 30+ years of conservative economic policies.
Who said "no matter what"?

Misrepresenting another's arguments is very powerful persuasion.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #243
271. My point is this
The union guys at GM don't have jobs anymore. They don't have jobs because GM made cars that nobody wanted to buy. That's not the unions fault, but it's not the fault of conservative economic policies either. Ford, Honda, Nissan, and Toyota all make cars in the US, and they have all had to live with the same conservative economic policies that GM and Chrysler did, but somehow they never went bankrupt, did they? The biggest threat to a blue collar worker's job is dumb mistakes by management, and being part of a union doesn't protect you from that.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #271
292. Your point that unions don't protect from everything? Really, no kidding.
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n.michigan Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #238
281. It was always the GM leadership. All professions have membership organizations.
For many reasons: networking, benefits, political influence, missions and codes of ethics, professional standards. Some even get to self-regulate-like lawyers bars.

Why go it alone when sharing expertise is more helpful.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #281
283. Yes, all professions have membership organizations
However, most are smart enough to realize that raising your salary and benefits to the point that nobody can afford your product is a dumb idea.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #215
310. And that is another example of how the U.S. treats its labor force like shit.
In most of Western Europe, workers enjoy state protection from being fired without cause.
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
222. I haven't read all the responses yet...
but I wanted to say- thanks for your service. Teachers are probably the most important people in our child's development- too bad they are as hamstrung as they are today. When people readily believe that the Nazis were a left wing phenomenon- well, I think that is just a small indicator of how f'ed up the system is. Texas decides the textbooks everyone else will use- and the stupid here is deep.
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Riley18 Donating Member (883 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #222
224. I have been thinking how much like the Nazis the Republicans have been lately.
The Republicans are not even pretending to vote for things that are important to the public. They simply vote the way they are told to by their leaders. That is not the way a democracy works. The saddest part is that there are so many citizens who are clueless to what they are doing to our country. They cheer them on like it is some B movie or something. Once they finish off education it looks like they will go after Social Security next. Wait until they get to privatize that.

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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #224
229. they have been heading the way...
of the nazis since 2000. People need to open their eyes.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
232. ...
:hug:
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tnlefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
235. Thanks again madfloridian!
I had a long talk with a friend/teacher/neighbor last night who went into teaching with a Master's. We're both appalled and never expected this to happen with a democrat in charge, even though I mentioned to her months ago my apprehension with the appointment of Duncan. Way back then, she was trying 'to make the best of it', but she didn't want to discuss it much.

Last night, she was more demoralized than I'd heard before, her advanced degree, keeping up over the years, tenure, matters anymore, and she understands my concerns about the privatizing of public education...this is a travesty that democrats aren't talking about.

She's resigned herself to acceptance.

I keep asking the question why does someone with a BS in sociology get to make these decisions about education? I have a friend who has a minor degree in sociology and a doctorate in education and she teaches at UTC. The position of our local school superintendent requires advanced degrees in education, and the state level requires doctorate degrees.

I just can't believe this shit is happening.
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Peregrine Took Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
255. All public service employees are disrespected nowadays.
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 09:16 PM by Peregrine Took
Its disgusting. I was Civil Service and worked my butt off for 35 years. I deserve (and 'am owed, contractually) every cent of my benefit package.
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
256. K&R. I've never been so disappointed in anyone as I have been in Obama.
And I really didn't expect much from him. But the sight and sound of him now make me just as sick as the sight and sound of Bush did. I utterly despise him, and his attitude toward teachers and education is a major reason why.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #256
278. +1,000
If I wanted a damned Republican I would have voted for McCain.

Obama just makes me sick as a result of embracing neoliberalism, an idea which has been discredited and debunked time and again.
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Robeson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
259. K&R.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
260. Well, I certainly respect teachers. In my state, I am appalled by what is being done to them.
We're suffering from "Reagan disease" here, the "something for nothing" scheme to attack public education.

Our governor is the fat cat pig Christie, and predictably, like a good Republican, he is attacking education.

Few of the Reagan celebrants give a rat's ass that Reagan took over a state with the number one education system in the country and left it what it is today, number 46.

Here in New Jersey, we're number 4, but that's about to change for the worse.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #260
264. Not even Reagan was as much of an asshole on education as the Democrats have been.
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ncteechur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
265. The primary authority over education is the state. Senate bill 6 is a Florida state issue
It is not a federal issue.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #265
270. It is when it involves federal moneyand federal money is all the excuse Fl. needed or wanted.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #265
275. Maybe you need to pay attention to what Arne's goals are.
Yes, it is fast becoming a federal issue.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
273. Rec. Demeaning teachers and the public school system is not the way to change for the better.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 03:27 AM
Response to Original message
286. Your quotes are all from Republicans. Yet, you're angry at the Democrats.
huh
:hurts:
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #286
288. Thereby making it clear to everyone here that you aren't paying attention
to what's going on in Florida and elsewhere.
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jasonnfree45 Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
287. teachers care
My 6 year old grandson goes to a small school in southern california. I really appreciate how caring the teachers are and how they look at each child as an individual. My grandson is bi polar and they make allowances for this and I see him learning and maturing. Some of the childrens english isn't very good-same thing-they work around each childs difficulty, each child being unique. This is a teacher-student relationship, bond, or whatever you call it and can't be measured by a statistic or understood by test scores divided by the number of student. This is not a factory where you measure efficiency. I'm disappointed in the Obama administration.. I'll just keep calling my senators and rep. (Sanchez, 47th district) and also the White House . My thanks to all the teachers out there.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #287
303. Beautifully said.
Thank you and welcome to DU!

:hi:
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DeanDem10 Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
304. Well, I am proud of you
and of your legacy.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
305. When advanced degrees no longer count, it means they will be dumbing down the workforce
Madflo, I mourn with you. They are destroying the system. They don't want teachers with advanced degrees who might actually think for themselves. They want young BAs from education schools who can be given a corporate curriculum to follow. No deviations will be allowed. It will be like my Starbucks here in LA whose thermostat is set by the corporate office, regardless of what the temperature is like in LA. Being a teacher and being a "barista" will be the same thing.

Florida is being fast tracked. I think California will be next as our state sinks into deliberate bankruptcy.

Many Democrats are just so happy to have a president in office that they are not really watching what he is doing. Obama is Reagan, ideologically. He is doing what the Reagan backers only dreamed of getting done. The problem is that what they are trying to do is completely untested and will cause a ton of taxpayer waste and tragic loss of human minds. But the hedge funds will make money and the criminals who have hijacked our system will line their pockets with ill-gotten gains.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #305
308. +100,000
Reagan redux. If people had only checked into his background in the primaries; the media made sure they wouldn't vet him.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
311. More hijack attempts on this thread than a plane full of SLA.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #311
324. Hnmmn
.
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kas125 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
320. Ha, you should try being a member of CodePink around
here. I worked at an elementary school for ten years before I had to quit to take care of my dad. I wasn't a teacher, but I know what it's like since I had to sub a lot. The way things are going with education, all I can think lately is that I'm glad my youngest will be graduating this year, but my heart breaks for my "adopted" kid, who is really the daughter of my best friend who died five years ago, because she'll be a first year teacher next year.
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oddvids Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
321. That's terrible.
All of these horrible bills are being passed for schools in the US now, defiantly working against Obama rather than with him to make schools better for all. First there's the Texas school board taking Thomas Jefferson and Oscar Romero out of existence, whitewashing any non-white American leaders, stating repeatedly that America was founded on Biblical principles, insisting on taking Mexicans out of the battle of the Alamo, and replacing the term "capitalism" - apparently too negative - with "free enterprise" in their textbooks, and now this!
This really tips me over the edge. I'm sorry to hear about that happening.
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reality2050 Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
323. Join the Educators in Florida
Over 57,000 ppl have joined facebook,,,,,,,,,, Veto Sb6
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Florida-Teachers-Against-Pay-For-Performance-Salary-Pay-Scales/10150134353705537
They are organizing their efforts, If you don't agree with the current legislative policy on education reform JOIN THEM
Let your voices be heard. join us, Or Email Charley to veto sb6
Crist's Executive Office
Phone Number: 850-488-7146
Fax: 850-487-0801
Email: Charlie.Crist@MyFlorida.com
Address:
Office of Governor Charlie Crist

Crist's Campaign Office
Phone: 850-907-1218
Fax: 850-907-1219
eForm: http://charliecrist.com/contact/

Jeb Bush created FCAT testing as the state assessment monitoring student progress for the No Child Left Behind Legislation, which was legislated by George Bush, while he was President. Jeb's younger brother, Neil Bush is the founder of a software company of Ignite! Learning happens to make educational software for FCAT preparation. Jeb Bush, since leaving the Governor's Office, runs a "non-profit" educational foundation called the Foundation for Excellence in Education. He was instrumental in getting Thatcher elected as Florida Speaker of the House, th sponsor of Florida Senate Bill 6. This Bill ties teacher pay and job security to student performance on this test. This attempt to privatize public education and benefits the "for profit education industry " lobby, which includes his brother and cronies ". Jeb Bush feeding into public discontent with a system that he helped create
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #323
327. Thanks for the link. Have emailed him.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
326. It is very troubling,and one need not be a teacher.
After working hard to get more DEMs in office, I now find myself wondering where the hell my party went. Too many of the pols we elected seem to be neo-cons in DEM disguise. I figure they are, for the most part, owned by corporations who want government to do what they say and disregard citizens totally.

I want to wander off into a cave now. I do not recognize the Democratic Party these days.
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n.michigan Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #326
328. Resist the urge, its what they want-Dem disenchantment. Then the real "winning" Red party can win
Edited on Sun Apr-11-10 08:29 PM by n.michigan
I honestly believe that the corporations have this all set. Obama=straw man. Win, ignore justice, depress the active honest rage against Bush maladministration (it is why he won) do exactly the opposite of what you portrayed in the election and stun the populists (Dems, left and center, Independents) who tried to bring hope and change to our lives) and then operate with deceptive policies that do not represent us- but the $ behind the scene. Disgusting and traitorous leadership of the Dem party.

The activism was captured by the faux Tea party but it has now become real enough. They have energy now. Thank the DLC and Obama leadership and everyone of those sold-out Dems.

I am amazed as I think about it. The "real" Republican party was and is NEVER hurt or held accountable by the Dems (election 2000!), are they? In this case they are supported with immunity (same people) for the actions of the last 8 years. So Reds will be the true heirs to our corrupt plutocrasy- the party of big business- chastised mildly by the corporate Dems- and the Reds will get the seat again- because the Dems did not exercise their power for justice and change FOR THE PEOPLE. The Dems never activated the will of the people, but sat on it.
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
329. A very belated kick for an important OP. nt
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