Instead of sitting by and watching while states abolish teacher tenure we need to demand it for all

[proud2BlibKansan]

Tenure doesn't grant any teacher a job for life. It guarantees due process if the school district decides to fire a teacher. The teacher is entitled to a written notification and an opportunity to appeal. That's it.

This is a right all workers should have. An employer should be required by law to have just cause to terminate any employee.

Instead of criticizing teachers for having tenure we should be working to guarantee it as a right for all workers.

[Starry Messenger]

1. Amen!

:thumbsup:

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Yep

[paulsby]

3. ridiculous

this is a right ALL workers should have?

so,if you run a small business with two employees, your employees should have that right?

hell no

teachers otoh?

yes

but when it comes to small businesses, they need more flexibility and not ALL workers should have this right

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. Yes all workers

I was fired from a part time retail job over the phone because a co-worker lied. Due process would have resulted in the co-worker's termination instead of mine.

[paulsby]

14. great but the current law does not require "just cause"

or "any cause" at all for at will employees in many jurisdictions, and imo it is overburdening and injurious to small businesses to require just cause in many cases.

search for at will employees at wikipedia if you doubt my veracity

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. And I am proposing that current law should call for just cause

I have a family member who was fired a few months ago from a job he had held for 10 years. He was the highest paid employee and they decided to make something up and fire him rather than lay him off. And his employer did this because they could.

The system should favor the worker rather than the employer.

[paulsby]

20. how about a system that BALANCES the rights of the worker and the employer

god forbid we should also protect the employer.

they are like all corporate'y and stuff.

ewwwww

like i said, some jobs (even in at will states) have special protections.

but why should the worker get MORE protection than the employer.

a worker has interests but so does an employer

an employer puts his capital at risk

he usually has to invest significant time/$$$ in training an employee and getting them up to speed

he risks theft/slippage etc. from dishonest employees

employers are an essential part of the engine of capitalism - that BUILDS wealth.

they deserve protection

and so do workers.

if you work at an at will job, then you know (or SHOULD) from the start, that this is your status

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Are you assuming workers have a choice?

Cause they don't. Most jobs are at will nowadays. That's an unfair advantage to the employer.

[harun]

12. They must have just cause already.

"I am out of money and can't pay the person any more", is a valid reason.

"I don't like brunettes", is not a valid reason.

If they fire and the reason is pure BS then the employee is entitled to unemployment.

Hell even Steve Forbes when running for president said this.

[paulsby]

13. not in many jurisdictions. you are wrong under the law

in many, they do NOT need just cause.

see: at will employees

hth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
"any hiring is presumed to be "at will"; that is, the employer is free to discharge individuals "for good cause, or bad cause, or no cause at all," and the employee is equally free to quit, strike, or otherwise cease work"

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. And the unemployment can be denied

And is almost always denied when the worker is fired rather than laid off. Then the worker has to appeal and has no income while waiting for a ruling.

That's not a fair system.

[harun]

29. I agree, system is a million miles from being just.

[zorahopkins]

15. EVERY Worker

Every single worker should have these rights.

NO worker should be fired without notification of the specific reason(s) for his or her removal.

And ALL workers should have the RIGHT to appeal an unjust or unwarrented removal before an impartial third party!

[Bill McBlueState]

4. right on

I don't understand what it is about Americans that, when somebody has something we don't, we want to take it away from them instead of getting it for ourselves.

We should be trying to get better workplace protection for everyone, not taking it away from those who have organized and fought for it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Glad you get it

:hi:

[harun]

10. del

wrong spot.

[Nye Bevan]

5. A teacher in New York told an eighth grader "you have a sexy body"

He cannot be fired because of tenure, but the schools chancellor will not allow him back into the classroom, so he is being paid over $100,000 per year by the NYC Department of Education to report each day to a "rubber room" where he spends the day overseeing his multi-million dollar real-estate portfolio. And there are many others like him.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/leazy_of_rubber_room_vJlavofm7uiZjmfrTAgTxM

I am not enthusiastic about extending the concept of tenure.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Bullshit

They can fire him. This is administrative incompetence. Why should every good teacher be penalized because of this stupid one? Be angry at the admins who can't figure out how to fire a teacher rather than the teachers who don't tell their students they are sexy.

[Egnever]

11. Clearly you didn't read the link.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. NY Post - nuff said

I stand by my comments.

[Egnever]

9. There is a teacher in my wifes school

Who kicked a child she was reprimanded and went before some review board and was returned to the classroom. I am with you there needs to be more flexibility when it comes to teacher firings not less. There also needs to be a substantial increase in teacher pay to go along with that though.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. False accusations are a dime a dozen

I had a kid accuse me of picking him up and body slamming him against the wall. It was investigated by the district and the mother was so angry when they said it was an unfounded accusation that she filed a police report. I was exonerated but I wouldn't be surprised if that mother is on the internet somewhere claiming a teacher body slammed her son and is still teaching.

[Egnever]

28. This was witnessed by multiple students

And she has a track record already. You can hide your head in the sand all you want and pretend it isn't happening if you wish but I know for a fact that it is.

[tonysam]

22. The problem in public ed with "tenure" is the principal has ALL the power

while the teacher has none. A principal can make up any bullshit excuse and call it "cause," knowing the administrative law system will support his or her wrongful actions. School districts merely rig the game in their favor. Teachers are typically too poor to hire a lawyer to appeal terminations, which are almost always upheld by hearing officers and others depending on the state, and they have limited options in the civil court system.

I've been through this bullshit called "due process," and I know.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. It works well where I teach

There are many years when no tenured teachers are fired. It's ALWAYS because the admins didn't follow directions. Too stupid to fill out the right paperwork and turn it in on time.

[tonysam]

24. How do you know that? The hearings are usually secret.

Outside of a handful of cases where the teachers commit criminal acts, these terminations are generally not known to the public. It's very, very, very secret. NOBODY on the staff at the school where I worked knew ANYTHING about what had happened to me. To this day--two years later--I doubt they know anything. Only the counselor knew and knows about it, but that was several months after this piece of crap fired me when I ran into him at the store. Nobody knew. The principal kept her mouth shut. I don't think even the two colleagues who lied for her knew. I don't think they ever knew what happened to me afterwards.

My shitbag principal violated EVERYTHING in the book--didn't even follow the Nevada Administrative Code--yet I was the one who was thrown out--not her. It was no big deal: the district falsified documents, committed perjury, suborned perjury, and bribed Washoe Education Association's executive director with a job working under the crook who spearheaded my firing and forced my principal to do it. The union's lawyer refused to allow me any witnesses. And then they picked the most biased arbitrator to hear the case. Some "due process."

She's still a principal, but she was moved. I am without a career because of this piece of human shit.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Because our board releases the data every year

I know exactly how many teachers are fired every year and whether or not they were tenured. I don't know their names but I know the number.

[tonysam]

26. They don't do it out here. The union must be stronger than this miserable excuse of one

here.

I would also submit it is deceptive because many teachers are forced to resign in lieu of dismissal or they resign before the "hearing." Or they take a settlement. That won't count as being "fired."

WCSD tried that shit of starving me into a settlement--which would have been a piddling $10K after two years of abuse by them--by putting me on unpaid leave. Most teachers would take the settlement thus depriving themselves of unemployment compensation.

So whatever a board says doesn't mean squat. It doesn't mean teachers aren't being pushed out--they are.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. HIgh school teacher tenure is a misuse of the term

Probationary vs permanent, not unlike that used with Federal Civil Service would be much more appropriate. It would also end the confusion with college profs in the minds of many people

[NNN0LHI]

27. I agree those of us in unions need to stand together because if we don't they screw us all

Every time a union job is lost everyones union become weaker. That is a fact.

I used to try and tell people that here but no one wanted to listen. They wanted to tell me all about their magic Toyotas and Hondas back then.

I will be proud to stand with my union brother and sisters in the teaching profession. You have my full support.

Just a piece of advice though. I belong to the UAW and would appreciate some reciprocal support when the time comes. Supporting workers in Japan or South Korea or some non-unionized auto plant here in the US only weakens your own union.

Might seem like a bright idea at the time but purchasing that imported car could eventually cost you your own job. I am someone who pays attention to what kind of cars are in employee parking lots. I know a lot of other auto workers who do the same thing.

Don