Sometimes the subject of taxing fast food comes up here on DU, but what is fast food?

[ZombieHorde]

If you were to design a legal definition for fast food, what would that definition be?

[Poll_Blind]

I think any place with a drive-through window would qualify.

Not really given much thought to it but that seems like a decent start of a definition.

PB

[ZombieHorde]

4. If McDonald's closed their drive-through window would they no longer be fast food? nt

[Poll_Blind]

7. By that definition, sure. n/t

PB

[DJ13]

5. So McDonalds could go back to the traditional walk up restaurant

to dodge the tax?

(Im assuming some here will remember when they had Golden Arches on the side and just order windows with no drive thru.)

[Poll_Blind]

12. By that definition, sure. n/t

PB

[treestar]

105. You can get a salad from McDonald's

People seem to overlook that. Fast food places generally have salads. I got a garden salad at Burger King.

[CBGLuthier]

1. Anything they (those who like this idea) don't eat.

You can overeat without fast food and eat healthy with small indulgences at fast food. Always been a dumb idea.

[DJ13]

14. Bingo

It has nothing to do with health, and everything to do with the twin objectives of finding more tax revenues while imposing their will on everyone else.

[KittyWampus]

2. Prepared meals assembled while you are waiting? Now, why can't there be healthy fast food joints?

Falafels, for instance?

[ZombieHorde]

13. My wife prepares food while I wait, does this make her meals fast food? nt

[paulsby]

20. lol. unbelievable

DEEP FRIED falafels are 'healthy fast food?"

the mind boggles. or is it because they aren't an "mericun" food, so it must be healthy

fwiw, plenty of fast food restaurants offer very healthy choices. wendys chili is a good example

it's also cheap, hot, and tasty. low fat, high fiber, decent amount of protein, etc.

here's a hint. i'm not aware of anything that you stick in a deep fryer that could be considered "healthy" by most estimations.

you can take a vegetable like brocolli but if you DEEP FRY it, it becomes mostly a ball of fat.

[KittyWampus]

38. If it's fried properly- never mind. Your post displays appalling ignorance.

[paulsby]

50. your post displays appalling creationist like ignorance

but good on you.
it's not a food that "mercuns" eat very often, so it must be healthy

[Leftist Agitator]

62. Actually, if fried properly, falafel has much less fat than a burger.

As long as you pull the falafel as soon as they're crisp and golden brown, they don't soak up grease. They water in the falafel turns to steam when it hits the hot fat, thus keeping the fat from seeping into the balls of chickpea goodness.

Leave them in just a bit too long, after too much of the water has boiled off, and you have greasy falafel (which doesn't taste very good).

[paulsby]

67. it depends

on the type of beef used in the burger, and how they are cooked. grilled burgers (like on a barbeque or other surface where fat can drip off) for example have less fat ceteris paribus than burgers cooked in a pan etc. where they essentially can cook in a layer of their own fat (which is why one reknowned french chef says this is the ONLY way to cook a burger).

it also depends on the type of oil used to cook the falafel (of course). iow, what it is deep fat fried IN.

my point is that it varies, but IN GENERAL, any food submerged and fried in fat is not generally thought of as a health food, for good reason. although it makes it taste good.

i, for example cook my french fries by broiling them at high heat, with a thin coating of a rub i make with star anise, black pepper, salt, etc. because i use very little oil, and they are not submerged in same, they are MUCH healthier than the average fry. i also prefer to use sweet potatoes, skin on, which is much healthier.

most of the fast food falafels i have eaten were pretty greasy.

just like most fast food burgers.

so, the OP's claim that falafel is preferable depends as much on preperation as anything.

a burger made from lean ground beef and cooked properly is not unhealthy at all

[KittyWampus]

68. you could just apologize for being obnoxious.

[paulsby]

71. or i could explain that falafels, like burgers, are quite often greasy and fatty

or not.

but i'll apologize. sorry for being obnoxious

[KittyWampus]

75. thanks, if you're ever in my neck of the woods I'll treat you to a homemade burger or falafel

Your choice! :)

[paulsby]

83. deal

i will bring my homemade kimchi and homemade pickles

[KittyWampus]

86. When I was macrobiotic, I learned to make Japanese pickles and still have my press

which occasionally transforms radishes. But I've long since given up growing shiso. :hi:

My understanding of kimchi and pickles, other than being good eats, is that they are good for digestive process.

[paulsby]

87. yea. lots of good enzymes

kimchi when made from cabbage (i also make it from cucumbers) is essentially LADEN with nutrients, extremely low calories, and has lots of enzymes.

and it's good with beer.

[flvegan]

42. We have a "healthy" fast food place here in Tampa called Evos.

They're a growing chain. Vegans, vegetarians and omnis can all eat there on MUCH healthier food than what's served at the traditional fast food joint.

Peep the menu here...or don't. It made me hungry. http://www.evos.com/pdfs/evos_web_menu.pdf

[KittyWampus]

44. I hope they go national. And get a concession stand in public schools.

[ZombieHorde]

98. Those wraps look yummy. I love wraps. Sometimes, when I go out to eat I get a salad in a wrap. nt

[Gwendolyn]

72. Well, I wouldn't go for the falafels, but a chicken pita (whole wheat) is IMO...

one of the healthiest types of fast food around. I'd def go for middle eastern fast food over Mickey D's tallow fried doodoo in a paper wrapper any day.

[paulsby]

102. believe it or not, the jack in the box chicken fajita pita

is also quite nutritious

nearly every fast food restaurant has such choices (i mention wendys chili frequently)

chicken fajita pita does have quite high sodium, but on the whole is a pretty nutritious choice

[Gwendolyn]

107. Oh I do believe it. :-)

And it's good to know when you're on the road and there's nothing around for miles, that fast food joints have better choices. I just consider myself lucky that in my hood there are so many ethnically diverse, really delicious "fast food" places that it's easy to avoid the chains. I love gyros, and there's a place that makes the best lahmajoon (armenian pizza) ever. Fresh greek salad with feta. The chinese soup joint.

Sodium is a problem in some cuisines... but Gwen's village wisdom says, just drink loads of water and do cardio till you sweat it all out. Not very scientific but it's a plan. :D

[KansDem]

3. Any "restaurant" where you pay for your food before getting it.

That's been my definition for decades.

[ZombieHorde]

9. If McDonald's started charging people after they ate would McDonald's no longer be fast food? nt

[KansDem]

23. It won't. It wouldn't be in their best interests.

They want speed and for you to sit down and have them take your order to bring it to you for you to eat, then pay as you leave--it wouldn't fit their business model.

[ZombieHorde]

30. Wouldn't this depend on the tax?

What if the drive through is not operational for a while, would the food suddenly stop being fast food for a while as well?

[KansDem]

33. Did you mean to reply to the above poster?

I didn't say anything about a drive-through.

[ZombieHorde]

35. Crap, sorry. nt

[zorahopkins]

10. Starbucks?

Do you include places like Starbucks?

Or how about bakeries that offer seating on the premises?

How about delis?

[paulsby]

and many of the food choices at starbux are far LESS healthy than many offered at

conventional fast food joints. they have pastries that are LADEN with fat, and sugar and have over 1,000 kilocalories.

wendys chili otoh is quite nutritious

but guess which one has yuppy cred?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

26. Starbucks is exactly as "fast food" as McD, BK, KFC etc. -nt

[paulsby]

31. i agree. i just don't have a negative view of "fast food"

i like slow food, and i also like fast food.

in brief, i like variety.

love mcd's, taco bell, etc.

i also love authentic mexican, which i have eaten numerous times in mexico.

fwiw, mexican fast food is often EXCELLENT. street vendors. there are some very good street vendors here in seattle doing authentic mexican FAST FOOD

fast food is not a bad thing.

[KansDem]

29. If you go into such establishments and sit down...

...and your order is taken by a server who brings you your food, and you eat the food and pay as you leave, then that wouldn't be fast food.

But places like (Starbucks and McDs) will not do this as it doesn't fit their business model which is to get you in and out as fast as possible.

[zorahopkins]

36. Don't All But The Most Expensive Eating Establishments?

Don't all but the most expensive eating establishments have a business model that tries to get patrons in and out as fast as possible?

I think most restaurants try to provide quick service to customers. And I think most restaurants rely on "turn over" in order to get as many customers in, seated, and served within a given time as possible. It helps to maximize profits -- more customers, more money.

Or course, the very posh (and really pricey) restaurants can afford to provide their customers with a very leisurely "dining experience". If a customer is paying top dollar, the restaurant doesn't need high turn-over. They need rich customers who can afford to pay high prices.

[KansDem]

48. "Expensive" eating establishments do tend to let you sit awhile.

They're often much more comfortable with an amiable ambiance: soft music and lights, plants and artwork, and "yes" the longer you stay the more you spend.

But there are many less expensive eateries that have you sit down and order--receive you food and eat--and pay as you leave. I go to several in my town and pay moderate prices.

However, the "fast food" places want you in and out in as short amount of time as possible. Their atmospheres tend to be "uncomfortable"--bright lights and colors, unattractive uniforms on the workers, and the most uncomfortable furniture imaginable! They tend to not be as expensive as the "posh places" or even the moderately-priced places, so they depend on quick turnover for profits.

I'd recommend "Food, Inc." The documentary chronicles the rise of the fast-food industry--and its influence on the rise of factory farming with all its horrendous treatment of animals and unsafe practices. McDs was a primary influence in this development--it's business model called for its workers to do one job, and one job only. I imagine the elimination of servers--even the earlier "fast-food" places had carhops--was primary in keeping its bottom line as low as possible. But when you have one person taking your order and your money at the same time, it's "fast food."

[zorahopkins]

51. So, We Tax The Places Where The Poorer People Go.

Fast food places" tend to not be as expensive as the "posh places" or even the moderately-priced places, so they depend on quick turnover for profits."

So, if we tax fast food places, then aren't we taxing the very places that are not expensive or moderately priced?

And doesn't that mean that we are taxing the very places poor and less well-off people can afford to go?

And wouldn't that send a message to poor and less well-off people that only the rich and people who can afford to pay moderate prices are the people who can dine out?

[KansDem]

55. I never said that. The question was "what is fast food?"

I simply provided my definition.

Whether or not we tax the food "poorer people" eat is another question.

But I might add two observations:
1) More expensive eating establishments would bring in more taxes.
2) If it wasn't for government subsidies for the diary and meat industries, no one could afford to eat out, or at least at places that serve meat and diary products. And "fast food" would disappear.

Personally, I try to avoid meat and diary products for health reasons, so I probably wouldn't be subjected to the higher prices if all government subsidies for the meat and diary industries were eliminated.

[tammywammy]

73. So the local deli's I go to are fast food?

I order and pay and then they bring my sandwich/salad/soup, etc out to me.

[Odin2005]

94. So buffets are fast food?

[Atman]

6. Hmmm...

There is no printed menu, just big, colorful pictures of the food displayed on a big light-up sign behind the counter.

You can order it through a speaker, from your car, and pick it up at a window.

There is a zig-zag crowd-control line leading up to a counter full of cash registers.

I know those aren't very "legal" definitions, but they sure hold true for virtually any type of so-called fast food I can think of.

[ZombieHorde]

21. The hamburger joints in my town don't have zig-zag lines and they do offer printed menus.

This describes both Burger King and McDonald's.

[Atman]

25. You seem to be just making stuff up for the sake of arguing.

No McDonalds or Burger King presents you with a traditional printed menu. They might make one available, but I've never seen one or been offered one. And while it is true that some smaller McD's or BK's skip the snake line, it is quite rare to find such a store these days.

.

[ZombieHorde]

32. I was given a paper menu as a liner in my plastic tray at McDonald's.

it is quite rare to find such a store these days

Not in my town.

[KittyWampus]

8. Okay, here's what a search found- quick service of hot food with minimal table service

[zorahopkins]

15. Whole Foods?

Whole Foods offers a hot food and salad bar. You serve yourself, and you pay.

Then you can sit down.

Quick service (in fact, no real "service" at all), and minimal table service.

[KittyWampus]

39. if they are prepared foods, then yes. Fast food.

[ZombieHorde]

16. That describes the the health food store by my home. nt

[KittyWampus]

40. then they serve fast food. Quick service of hot, prepared food with minimal table service.

[SoCalDem]

11. Any food that is not served to you by a waitress/waiter who also took your order

:)

One exception is made for TRUE buffets (which are about as extinct as the T-Rex, these days)



edited for the deliberately "obtuse"..

Food ordered off a menu (as opposed to a wall behind the counter)

Food ordered at an EATING establishment:

not:

a grocery store
your own home kitchen/dining room
school cafeteria, etc

[DJ13]

18. Carl's Jr.** serves the food to your table if you're eating in the dining room

** Known as Hardee's on the East Coast.

[ZombieHorde]

19. So all food you make yourself is fast food? nt

[zorahopkins]

28. "Waitress"???!!

Any food that is not served to you by a "waitress" who also took your order.

!!!???

Does that mean that if a you gave your order to a male server, and the same male server brought you your food, you would be eating fast food???

[SoCalDem]

34. geez... the "picky-police" are out in force today.. (I did edit)

:)

[Initech]

17. Any restaurant that has a drive-thru window

[ZombieHorde]

24. So if McDonald's closes its drive through window it will no longer be a fast food restaurant? nt

[mod mom]

22. I would suggest the tax for ingredients like HFCS and partially hydrogenated corn syrup.

[ZombieHorde]

27. I think legally defining HFCS and hydrogenated corn syrup would be much easier than defining

fast food.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

37. Yeah... right. The same people who 'define" assault weapons and any other "product".

Manufacturers will tweak one little thing just to get around the tax.
They could change the corn syrup composition or some other minor detail...

[KittyWampus]

41. No, actually. I provided a Fast Food definition. It has been defined. I didn't just make it up.

[ZombieHorde]

45. Does "quick" have a legal definition? nt

[KittyWampus]

74. Junk Food, Fast Food: Definitions (still looking to see if time is defined anywhere)

Junk food is defined as commercial products "which have little or no nutritional value but do have plenty of calories, salt, and fats." Fast food is "ready-to-eat foods served promptly after ordering.

http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Junk-Food-Fast/dp/0313335273

[ZombieHorde]

80. I think those are great dictionary definitions, but a legal definition may have to have numbers

attached to it. Fat/ounce, salt/ounce, etc.

I am not asking you to give me numbers, I am just playing with the definition you found.

[KittyWampus]

82. I particularly enjoy this topic. BUT- talking about food can be tricky. People often feel

critiques no matter how politely given, are personal attacks.

Now for legal definitions >>> taxing food etc

I prefer focusing on what I'd call "Junk Foods". Cause it's possible to have healthy fast foods made from whole foodstuffs.

I'm inclined to point to lack of nutrional balance?

Chemical adulterants?

Overly Processed?

[KittyWampus]

76. Awesome, a mathematician did a paper on "How Fast Can Fast Food Be Served/"

How fast can fast food be served?

M. Mesterton-Gibbons
Department of Mathematics, Florida State University, Tallahassee, FL 32306-3027, U.S.A.
Communicated by E.Y. Rodin Available online 27 March 2002.
Abstract

An intermittent phenomenon in the fast-food industry is the practice of enticing new customers by guaranteeing service times. A simple mathematical model is used to argue that this practice does not persist because it is not, by itself, economically sound.

[DBoon]

43. I'd tax based on fat content per serving

Yes I know refined sugar is bad, but I'd focus on the highly calorific fat first

Fast food itself isn't the issue - it is high calorie low nutrition food

[zorahopkins]

46. Nuts Are Very Healthy

Nuts (almonds, walnuts, pecans, etc.) are very healthy.

They also have a very high fat content.

Would you subject nuts to a fast-food tax?

[slampoet]

52. So Bone Marrow and foie gras get taxed extra? How to you tax Marrow and not the meat around it ?

How do you determine the fat of a non ground piece of meat?

[DBoon]

64. Foie gras is just yuppie fast food

expensive, trendy fat is still fat

[Gwendolyn]

69. Foie gras is definitely not "fast" food. Preparation is a whole to do so doesn't fit the description

[Kokonoe]

47. Fast food is paid for in advance, before its made or served.

So any prepared food would get a fast food tax, unless you already ate it.

[icymist]

49. How about anyone selling crap disguised as food?

Mark Morford at the SF Gate has a pretty good article about fast food and the new atrocity being sold at KFC:

<snip>
I can think of few gigs more nightmare-inducingly, soul-deadeningly horrible than being an executive for garbage food megacorp.

That is to say, a VP for McDonald's, Taco Bell, Burger King or their ilk, someone who sits around all day trying to discover new ways to manipulate, coerce, poison, and otherwise flagrantly kill millions of humans worldwide by convincing them to eat mass-produced, industrial feedlot, chemical-blasted garbage you should not feed to your dog unless you totally hate him and want him to get heart disease and die.

Hell, even the oil titans right now raping Canada can claim to be supplying a commodity that runs the engines of the world. Even Wall Street ogres can claim to be partaking of a time-honored tradition of gutting the U.S. Treasury at the expense of the ignorant masses. But head of marketing for, say, Kentucky Fried Chicken? Oh, you poor soul. Hell hath a special room for you.

<snip>

You got your chicken-like creature, your pig-like creature, your dairy cow-like creature, all wrapped in a $5 fistful of nausea, ready to strangle your heart and benumb your brain. God knows what's in the "special sauce." Maybe some sort of fish byproduct, just to round it all out. It's like a wild kingdom in your mouth! It's like a toxic zoo in your colon! It's like a suicide note from what's left of your brain! "If you eat this, you are a complete and total idiot, and we're through. Signed, You."


Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/04/09/notes040910.DTL&nl=fix#ixzz0kdrMs5Kj

When you can buy a fist-full of flesh for $5 or a burger for $1 you have to ask yourself "Why so cheap?" There must be a reason why it's so cheap. That is what fast food is, cheap food served fast.

[zorahopkins]

53. "Cheap Food Served Fast"

That sounds SO elitist.

It is almost as though what is being said to poor people is, "Unless you can afford to go to a place where expensive food is served in a leisurely style", just stay home. The rich can afford expensive food. Poor people can't, so all you poor people just stay home. Eat beans or whatever you can afford, but for GOD'S SAKE, don't even think about going out to eat."

[icymist]

54. Oh bull! You have to wonder what it is you're eating.

Telling poor people to just stay home?! What else are you going to tell me I said? Why don't more people work to improve the plight of the poor instead of justifying the garbage they have to endure, be it low wages or sub-standard food?

[Fumesucker]

58. I don't see raising taxes on food that poor people can afford as "improving their plight"..

Why don't we instead raise taxes on those who can most afford it and use that money to improve the plight of the poor?

[zorahopkins]

65. Exactly Right!

Instead of taxing "cheap food served fast", we should heavily tax food served in expensive restaurants.

It makes much more sense to me to raise taxes on things like a $15 "appetizer" or a $45 entree and a $20 dessert.

The people that can afford to pay those kind of prices of "non-fast" food SHOULD PAY MORE TAXES.

People who can only afford "cheap food served fast" SHOULD NOT PAY MORE TAXES.

Honestly, what sense does it make to raises the taxes on food that poor people can afford while leaving the taxes on food that ONLY the rich can afford alone?

[-..__...]

56. I think rather than trying to save us all...

by taxing (or banning), certain things that others disapprove of, a saner/more popular idea would be to concentrate on saving us from people who wish to institute (or raise), even more taxes.

[Luminous Animal]

57. Stop subsidizing corn and soy factory farms then we wouldn't have to tax...

the victims of our food policy.

[ZombieHorde]

60. An interesting idea. nt

[bergie321]

79. +1000

[damntexdem]

59. I remember that in California a cupcake was junk food so taxed, a muffin was not.

The difference: a cupcake is iced.

The moral, distinctions can be made, but they will be complex, sometimes twisted, and often gamed by food producers.

[ZombieHorde]

61. Interesting. nt

[Mother Smuckers]

78. So where do Twinkies fall in those descriptive/taxable niches?

They're "iced" on the inside, I think. If somebody made muffins and injected some sugary fat crap in them would they still be muffins? And why does the universe exist?


heh heh

[Codeine]

85. No food is taxed in California.

Carbonated beverages are, however.

Prepared food sold to eat on premises is taxed.

[Brother Buzz]

106. In California, 'Hot' food from a market is taxed

A hot pastrami sandwich or a cooked chicken in a foil sack from the deli counter in a market is taxed. A tuna fish sandwich or potato salad from the same counter should not be taxed, but often is.


on edit:
A frozen burrito from a convenience store should not be taxed (again, they often try to tax it), but if you microwave it on the premises, it will be.

[flvegan]

63. I don't know that I would support taxing "fast food" but to define it

I'd say it would meet a couple criteria:

1. Served cafeteria style;
2. A certain percentage of the food would be, for the most part, nutritionally unsound.

Again, not a fan of taxes, but a positive would be that it would offset some of the subsidies we already give out for garbage "food"

[KittyWampus]

66. IMO, fast food is absolutely the wrong term. More like whole food vs. adulterated food

Maybe not the correct term either but as you pointed out- there are some rare fast food joints serving good, nutritionally balanced food.

So maybe it's empty calorie food - or nutritionally challenged? :think:

[Gwendolyn]

70. Yep, that's the heart of it. Plastic versus whole food.

[Mother Smuckers]

77. I'm pretty sure escargot isn't

:silly: :D

[NeedleCast]

81. This thread is an interesting look into people who want to raise taxes

on things they don't do.

It's always easy to suggest we raise taxes on someone else...

[KittyWampus]

84. I'm enjoying the attempt to define fast food and end up preferring the term "junk food".

[NeedleCast]

88. I never understood the hate for fast food here (by some anyway)

I mean, if you don't like it, don't eat it, right? I'm not a huge fan but I also understand the health risk associated with fast food comes from making it a major theme in your diet or not combining it with better nutrition. There are even options out there like Baja Fresh and other places that are mostly considered fast food that are fairly healthy.

[4 t 4]

89. Maybe it should be considered fast food

if it's more processed than fresh? If you have more than 50% fresh food then you won't be consider "fast food" ????

[NeedleCast]

92. That might be fair

I think ultimately it's all semantics.

[Luminous Animal]

93. Because it is not food and it is making us sick.

It is a death diet for humans, a horrific industry for the animals, and it's fucking up the environment.

[rucky]

100. I would suggest cutting the subsidies for the corporate farming operations

that supply 'em...

[Overseas]

103. I agree. This chart is really amazing.

As though the subsidies were designed to support our privatized health care system and pharmaceutical industry with its millions of pills to address the issues that arise from our unbalanced diets.

[Sheepshank]

90. fast food definition from the health department

food served on paper, styrofoam or other disposable, single use product.

Sit down restaurants that serve food using reusable dishes, glasses, stemwear and silverwear, have additional health department issues to address with santation and storage of the dishes, glasses and flatwear.

[Warren Stupidity]

91. take out. nt.

[Odin2005]

95. Anything cheap and unhealthy the food puritans don't like.

[Arkana]

96. Hitting a deer at 60+ miles an hour on the interstate in a Winnebago?

[ZombieHorde]

97. Funny. nt

[rucky]

99. The HCR Bill takes a stab at defining it...

by requiring all chain restaurants with, like 24+ locations to disclose calorie counts on the menus.

I would guess there's not alot of home cookin' going on at a 24-restaurant chain.

[Touchdown]

101. Stuff that fast food joints serve. You know, like Panera Bread, Soup or Salad...

Falafel King, Q'doba, Wahoo Fish Tacos, Salads n Such, The local hispanic woman's breakfast burrito van (her only source of income), Zorba's Gyros Stand (his only source of income), Dragon Cafe Take Out (their only source of income), Szechuan Garden delivery, Thai Palace, Any Sushi bar with a conveyor belt

[Overseas]

104. Single-serve units and taste engineering are dominant characteristics of US fast food.

Single serve units with disposable packaging. Even sitting at a table or food taken home from there is in the individual units. Even if some folks eat three individual units as their one-person meal.

YOU get what YOU want -- YOU are free to choose your poison, if you have the little bit of cash for the heavily subsidized ingredients. See the chart posted up thread.

Taste engineering -- flavoring chemicals and processes are studied to please YOU. To get your taste buds and brains hankering for them. Production engineered to make the taste as uniform as possible. A flavor you can trust to be the same, time after time, until a new hot sweet salty sauce is introduced to revive your jaded taste buds.

Microwave meals are another kind of fast food with more taste engineering. Flavors you can trust. A whole paragraph of carefully balanced additives to create and preserve the taste you want every time.

So perhaps I'd say US fast food is characterized by a paragraph of additives to ensure that the form and flavors are reliably attractive and stable in freezing, shipping and rewarming.

[KittyWampus]

108. Great addition! This whole thread neglected to mention the throw-away packaging