"That's gay" as an insult.

[BlueStater]

I'm just curious what you guys think about it.

Frankly, I can't stand it. And the excuse teenagers use about the word having evolved to mean "lame" or whatever and doesn't necessarily mean anything homophobic I find to be even more annoying. What bullshit.

I'm not saying that all the kids who talk like that are necessarily bigots but they're just completely ignorant as to the history of this sort of slang. Whatever little punk first started saying "that's gay" in regards to something he didn't like obviously equated being gay as to being something negative. It really isn't something that should have caught on.

So as bad as the insult is, I think the weak excuse about "words changing over time" is even worse. And the next time I hear someone on the internet or in real life defending it, I'll let them know what I think.

[azurnoir]

1. agreed 101%

I've had serious words with my 13 year-old over that one

[StopTheNeoCons]

14. +1

[no limit]

2. Sometimes things get burned in to our vocabulary that are hard to get out

that's a very common phrased used. In the end I think most people that say it don't actually mean to be offensive to gay people.

[azurnoir]

4. maybe I'm just old but that usage of "gay" IMO

hasn't been around long enough to be burned in

[uppityperson]

6. eenie meenie minie moe, catch a _______ by the toe

What do you put in there? My parents made an obvious effort to change the word to "piggy" when we were growing up, made our friends say it that way also. OK, we could get by with "tiger" also. Even if it wasn't actually mean to be offensive to people, still it was.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

11. Is "tiger" offensive?

[uppityperson]

17. The common word was "n..."

[Bluebear]

19. I'm sure he knows. He also uses "gay" as an insult, so there you have it.

[Shell Beau]

30. I always heard tiger until I got older and someone said the n word

in its place. I thought they made it up at the time. Of course it never made any sense, but most kiddie sayings don't.

[uppityperson]

47. It was the times I grew up in. My folks were pretty radically openminded

except for things that hurt other people. They very intolerant of bigotry and tried to instill that into we kids.

I hadn't thought about the "n" way of saying that for ages, but one day the memory popped into my mind and went "wow". My folks were decent.

[Shell Beau]

48. The saying makes more sense, unfortunately, with the "n" word in place.

Hopefully, if that is still a popular kiddie thing, kids have no idea what it used to say. I know I didn't, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[pnwmom]

104. My little kid brain heard it as "nickle."

I always wondered how you catch a nickle by the toe. No one ever corrected my pronunciation of this either. I thought everybody said it that way, until I heard the tiger version.

[Malikshah]

184. I must have moved in the wrong crowds-- I'd only ever heard Tiger (grew up in 70s)

[SmileyRose]

190. SHOCKED -- Really ?????

Oh I don't doubt you - but I'm embarrassed. I *** ONLY *** learned the tiger version and have never ever heard the "n" version.

Oh dear............

[pinboy3niner]

53. In my family, we said, "tiger"

When my son was about 6, my brother and I were with him at Georgetown Mall in D.C., waiting for the elevator with three tall, black guys who looked like they could have been Hoya basketball players.

My son began saying, "Eenie, meenie, minie, moe . . . ," and my bother and I looked at each other, wondering frantically what was coming next. I knew what I had taught my son, but Lord knows what he might have picked up at school or elsewhere.

" . . . catch a TIGER by the toe," my son continued.

You can probably imagine the HUGH sigh of relief that came from my brother and me . . .

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

65. I have never hear "n*****" until today. I always thought it was tiger.

[pinboy3niner]

92. My friend, you must be young enough to have escaped

the racist construction that those of us who grew up in the'50's and '60's are familiar with. Count your lucky stars, and count us older citizens happy to see, from reports like yours, that that hateful construction is disappearing from the language . . . .

[darkstar3]

113. Growing up, I never thought that rhyme made ANY sense.

HOW do you make a tiger pay 50 dollars every day?

One day I heard my grandfather say the "real" version. I was flabbergasted, not to mention horrified at the fact that it made more sense...I think, though, that a lot of nursery rhymes tend this way. How many people actually know the story behind ring around the rosie?

[pinboy3niner]

132. The silly notion of a TIGER paying 50 dollars every day . . .

is, of course, preferable. MY grandfather, I learned very late in life, used to beat up black men who happened to wander into his neighborhood in Chicago. He lived on the next block from Mayor Daley, and any intruders into that Irish neighborhood were treated harshly. My grandfather was a devout Catholic, head usher at his church for more than 50 years. Was he also a racist? Very possibly so. Perhaps I--and all of us--bear the stains of our country's racist past. I know that for me, it was very disappointing to learn that bit of family history . . .

[wolfgangmo]

180. Many childrens rhymes and chants are based in horrifying histories.

Eenie, meenie .... is one example. It was about capturing escaped slaves.

Another is Ring around the Rosy, pocket full of posey.... which is about the black plague.


It is a way of explaining the worst of humanity to kids in a way that makes them understand but doesn't frighten them too much.

[LanternWaste]

165. No... but I'd imagine willful ignorance is.

"Is "tiger" offensive?"

No... but I'd imagine willful ignorance is.

[Thirtieschild]

13. eenie meenie minie moe, catch old Hitler by the toe

If he hollers make him say
I surrender to the USA.

That's what we said when I was young, obviously during WWII.

[Blue_In_AK]

51. Someone very close to me who I love very much

calls Brazil nuts n***** toes. I had never heard that before, but he's from Texas, so I guess that explains it.

[Flying Dream Blues]

148. I'm from Texas and don't know anyone that calls them that.

Just so you have a larger sample than one to form your opinion.

[Blue_In_AK]

157. That's good.

Maybe it's just East Texans of a certain age. :) He knows it's wrong, but like I said -- old dog, new tricks. I keep working on his bad habits.

[TeeYiYi]

170. I grew up with that term...

... and I'm from Utah. I didn't know that they were actually called Brazil nuts until I was at least ten years old or more.

I grew up with lots of inappropriate sayings that I didn't learn were inappropriate until I was older.

The first black person I ever saw was a woman from Nigeria who was going to the local college. She wore customary Nigerian dress and carried her books on her head. She was the only black person at the college at that time. I was nine or ten when I saw her.

There were not any black kids in any of my schools, until I went to college. My youth was sheltered in that way. My first roommate was black...

Such is life.

TYY

[iris27]

66. Whoa, I never heard of anything but "tiger" being used in

that phrase! :-O

[uppityperson]

79. it was a long time ago, in a galaxy far away

nd in the 50's

[yodoobo]

81. always just thought it was tiger.

[iris27]

64. I'm 28 -- not all that old -- and it never got burned into my vocab. n/t

[pnwmom]

100. People stopped using the N word. They can stop saying "that's so gay."

It won't be any harder.

[darkstar3]

114. Only among a very certain subset of people is it common.

Listen for the phrase "that's so gay," and trace the speaker. You will inevitably find the speaker to be young, privileged, and invariably straight.

"Gay" as a synonym for bad or fucked up is no better than using the word "fag." You'll notice that one is tolerated while another is not, and the difference has to do with direct verbal assault as opposed to derision. "You're a fag" is an obvious slur that is easy to shut down and punish in a school environment. "That's gay" would appear to be directed at no one and flies under the radar of exhausted teachers sick of playing disciplinarian. Unfortunately, though it is the parents' responsibility to deal with such matters, many of them care not a whit until little Tommy turns out to BE gay...

[fishwax]

126. it's not that hard to get out -- we just have to stop making BS excuses for it

If enough people make it a habit to point out its offensiveness, then the number of people willing to use the phrase will drop considerably.

[Warpy]

3. "It can't be, I'm not a Republican."

There's your comeback.

FWIW, I hate it, too.

[maxsolomon]

5. this post is retarded

:sarcasm:

when we were in HS, the standard dismissive was "you're queer". and the gay kids i attended school with (yes, openly gay kids; it was an arts high school) used it just as frequently as anyone.

[alphafemale]

93. Yep both of those "gay" and "retarded" were both used pretty commonly when I was in HS.

I don't think most people even think about what they are "actually" saying anymore than people who still use terms like:

"I got gyped"

He jewed me down."

or

"That was gerry-rigged"

People don't think about the things they say in terms of having an impact on real people most of the time.

[maxsolomon]

96. gerry-rigged?

i know that but i don't know what ethnicity it - wait, GERMANS?

sounds pretty good considering they make BMWs.

[Smarmie Doofus]

101. Also VWs, though. nt

[alphafemale]

106. My dad was of WWII vintage.

Kraut. WOP. Daego. Spic. and a slew of others. I'm not even sure what some of them were referring to. lol.

He never lived a word of it and never treated anyone unfairly.

The character Clint Eastwood played in Gran Torino reminded me much of my Dad.

On the other hand my mother would have never used such language and she was probably one of the most racist, nasty people I've ever known.

[muffin1]

129. Gran Torino was quite hard to watch. n/t

[darkstar3]

117. How 'bout "Jimmy the lock"?

I had NO idea on that one 'till a couple of years ago.

[alphafemale]

123. okay...???

What's the origin on that?

[darkstar3]

135. I was told that it was anti-irish,

though now that I go looking for a source, I can't find one. What I saw before had something to do with being afraid Jimmy O'Toole would pick the lock on your house and steal all your stuff...

[iris27]

142. Never knew the origins behind "gypped" until I was in my early 20's.

Still don't know "gerry-rigged"...especially since I thought until today that it was "jury-rigged", LOL!

[uppityperson]

151. Huh, I thought it was jury-rigged, like a bought out jury.

[Recovered Repug]

161. Actually the term is jury rig and it's origins are nautical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_rig

But, then again there's: Welshing on a bet and Dutch treat.

[Xithras]

185. Jury Rigged is many centuries old, but Jerry Rigged is WW2 vintage.

Jury Rigging refers to improvising a repair to the rigging on a sailing ship. It's been around for centuries, and has been used as a term for an improvised solution for non-sailors nearly as long.

Jerry Rigging is a WW2 term derived from Jury Rigging by British soldiers. In the closing days of WW2 the Germans had very few supplies available to repair their equipment, so they were often forced to improvise. It apparently wasn't uncommon to find German tanks using boot laces as throttle control cables, or German halftracks with improvised farmyard repairs to bulletholes and broken parts (in the 1940's, blacksmithing was not yet a lost art). On a more serious note, the Germans also crafted tiger pits, improvised mines, and other boobytraps to kill Allied soldiers because they didn't have enough proper weapons available. British and American soldiers coined "Jerry Rigging" as a pun for the various hand crafted oddities they discovered as they overran the German positions.

[redqueen]

7. Ain't that a bitch. (nt)

[Incitatus]

99. You got a problem with bitches?

My dog is a bitch.

:grr:

[BurtWorm]

8. I agree with you. I wince when I hear it.

There's no excuse for it.

I'm going to start saying, "That's so Republican!" instead.

[glitch]

38. Me too. Seeing ignorance so proudly displayed is wince-worthy.

Also calling boys "girls" -- I immediately lose respect for those doing it.

[gvstn]

82. That's the one that makes me mad

Every time a grown man/coach says "Let's go ladies" or similar to a group of guys I can't stand it.

I always think did this guy get developmentally stuck in 7th grade?

The remark is wrong on so many levels but listen for how many times you hear it in popular movies. It is painfully still quite prevalent.

[pnwmom]

107. Yes. Insults boys and girls at the same time. A two-fer. n/t

[darkstar3]

119. It pisses me off to no end that they use that in the military.

Ask a Marine about basic training sometime...:grr:

[Hippo_Tron]

9. I said it until I was about 15 or so when I learned better

Calling somebody "fag" and "gay" was a standard insult on the playground in elementary and middle school and although I was usually the victim I was sometimes the bully as well. I didn't really understand the implications until I got older and then I stopped doing it.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

10. I use it sometimes.

Sure it's roots are bigotted but after years of hearing/saying it... it doesn't hold much water as far as insults go.
I do agree that some would be (justifiably) insulted with it use.

That being said the phrase, "... lamer than AIDS" just doesn't hav ethe same ring to it.

[Bluebear]

12. It holds a LOT of water to gay people and you should be ashamed.

[jberryhill]

20. And how does "lame", used by the OP, come across to polio victims? /nt

[Bluebear]

22. Does the physically challenged community self-identify as "lamers"?

No.

Do gay people self-identify as such, and people are using the term as an insult? Yes.

[jberryhill]

29. "Lamers"? No. "Lame", yes

So if it were "faggoty" instead of "gay", it would be okay? That doesn't seem to be an improvement, nor logically consistent.

The mentally challenged don't self-identify as "retards" either.

Neither do "idiots" anymore.

But, believe it or not, I called something idiotic in a communication a while back, and an unintended recipient of that communication went on a rant about how I was being insulting to people with low intelligence by using the word "idiot".

[Bluebear]

31. I don't know what your angle is here. "That's gay" is an offensive insult. Bottom line.

[jberryhill]

33. So is, "that's lame"

That's my angle.

The OP's issue is that it is preferable to pick on some OTHER group.

[Bluebear]

35. Perfect, I don't use "that's lame" either.

[pnwmom]

95. Actually, one of the dictionary definitions of "lame" is weak.

So to say an argument is lame means that it is a weak argument.

There is no definition of "gay" that means weak; hence, it is only used as a slur in this situation.

[muffin1]

46. Look. Gay people are discriminated against every fucking day in this country.

By individuals (hello), schools, CHARITIES, corporations, and their own fucking government. To use the word gay as an insult, IS an INSULT to gay people. To demean already oppressed minorities is disgusting in the extreme.

I have to wonder, are you insulted by 'that's idiotic'?

[jberryhill]

49. I agree

But I don't see "lame" as an acceptable substitute either.

[muffin1]

118. Who is saying it is an acceptable substitute? n/t

[no limit]

167. So you speak for all gay people now?

I've had gay friends that used the term just as often as anyone else I knew.

[uppityperson]

28. I had a 20ish male lecture me that "bitch" shouldn't be offensive to me, a 50ish female

because it had been used in some popular music songs. It still holds water, as does calling someone gay.

[hughee99]

70. Is bitch only offensive as a noun?

For example, if I have to listen to those damn repukes bitch and moan about health care reform... have I offended someone? I absolutely wouldn't argue that using the term bitch as a noun isn't offensive (it absolutely is), but what about as a verb?

[iris27]

74. IMO, depends on the circumstance.

In your example, no. And I use it myself, ABOUT myself, quite a bit ("I better stop bitching and get to work.")

But as a substitute word for "nagging", as in "My wife won't quit bitching"...eh, that's a very dark gray area.

[uppityperson]

78. It depends on how its used. My sibs and I call each other "the bitches" but you can't

call me a bitch because we don't know each other.

As a verb? your usage seems ok to me.

[hughee99]

108. It's an odd word in several ways

in that there are definitely offensive uses for it, but it's not an outright slur like some other words that can be taken as offensive in any context. In the context you were referring to earlier, "bitch" doesn't seem to be becoming acceptable because it's more widely used, it's becoming more widely used because the attitude toward women is unfortunately becoming more acceptable in some circles.

[iris27]

71. "....than AIDS"???

Holy fuck. I've never heard that either. That is horrendous. Apparently the people in my work/family circles aren't as awful as they could be.

[pnwmom]

94. Please STOP. It's a terrible and hurtful habit.

Someday you're going to say that around someone who is gay or who loves someone who is gay -- which means, most of us.

And you will have lowered yourself in their eyes.

[AngryOldDem]

166. +1 n/t

[RedCappedBandit]

141. Perhaps you need to work on your vocab. nt

[LanternWaste]

174. And now that you know it is offensive,

And now that you know the phrase is offensive, you have the choice to stop using it... or not.

I imagine we all have the choice to advertise our character for what it is and for what we know.

[jberryhill]

15. "the word having evolved to mean "lame""

Oh, and you think it is OKAY to use "lame" in that way?

I guess both of your legs work just fine, don't they.

Ah-ha-ha ha... that's lame!

Funny stuff.

[BlueStater]

77. You could have gotten your point across without the photo.

That wasn't necessary.

[pnwmom]

109. One of the dictionary definitions of "lame" is "weak." So to use the word lame

as a synonym for weak -- as in "your argument is lame" -- is correct.

[Love Bug]

16. It pisses me off.

Anyone who uses that expression in front of me gets an earful. It's rooted in homophobia, and I don't care what excuse they give.

[npk]

18. The word gay has many different meanings to different folks

It has become a bastardized word. When my parents were growing up the word meant to be happy or joyful,.

[Toasterlad]

32. Not Really.

Despite what those supposedly non-bigoted children are telling you, they're equating dumb or lame with homosexuality Whether they're intending it as a homophobic slur or not, that's what it is. The word has not evolved to MEAN what they use it for, they're just pretending that it has.

If I started using black or Jew the way kids are using gay, I doubt anyone would let me get away with saying that the words have "evolved".

[pnwmom]

97. Yes, gay used to mean happy. But to say "that homework is so gay" is clearly

an insult. And to associate the word "gay" with something unpleasant is insulting to gay people and those who love them.

[npk]

124. I agree with you 100%

My point is that many young people today have made the word into what ever they want it to mean, depending on the conservation they might be having with another kid. Of course it isn't right. But just because a person may use the word in that context doesn't necessarily mean that they hate people who are gay. But I agree with you it is very disturbing to here that word used especially for somebody who is gay.

[snooper2]

172. I've always heard it used as an adjective...

In fact, just end of last week we were outside smoking and a pink conv. VW bug with pink rims rolled through the parking lot and I knew it was coming before Brian said it...."that's gay"

I think it's his favorite word or something...

[snooper2]

173. dupe post due to IE being a shitty piece of software

:)

[IntravenousDemilo]

21. The answer to "words changing over time"...

... is, "well, the definition of marriage has changed over time, too, so I guess you'll have to deal with it."

You know what's really gay, though? UFC. And I mean "gay" in the most homoerotic way possible. I've been in bars where str8 guys are watching those hot, beefy, sweaty boys getting into those missionary/doggie-style/piledriver clinches on TV, and I never fail to point out the hot man-on-man action. It totally ruins it for them, and I smile because the str8 boys wonder if they've caught "the gay" or something.

I'm such a bitch.

[Gman2]

23. Rethugs have used all those hate words, to ruin their offensiveness.

The entire socalled antiPC drive, is to allow them to again use n$gger, F@ggot, Effeminate. Obama is Hitler.

[Echo In Light]

24. "That's so ______." I've asked people to substitute a socially unacceptable slang w/ 'gay' before

It provides a good model for how ridiculous it sounds no matter which derogatory term is applied

[Obamanaut]

25. And I can't stand 'just sayin', but people use it, and they are not trying

to offend me.

[Bluebear]

26. You poor thing.

[Obamanaut]

39. Now that response was so g, er, lame. nt

[Bluebear]

43. It's all I could muster for a post so dismissive of a community as yours was.

[Obamanaut]

56. Notice the first line in the OP.

"I'm just curious what you guys think about it."

If one does not want to know what people think, one should not ask, because the answers may be different than what is expected.

[muffin1]

83. I guess Bluebear was hoping he might find democratic

ideals on what is supposed to be a democratic site. On the other hand, it is important to know how many people here hold gay people with such indifference or downright hatred.

[Bluebear]

91. Nothing surprises me here anymore, love.

:hug: for your support.

[muffin1]

120. I know. I only wish I WAS surprised.

:hug: back to you, Sweetie.

[mitchtv]

149. you got my support too ,bluebear

although I am without words tonite

[Bluebear]

87. We know what you think now. And we know you're an insensitive boor.

:hi:

[Obamanaut]

89. just sayin' nt

[Bluebear]

90. Just sayin' you're off to the ignore pile. What a jerk.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

162. Had To Jump In Somwehere

What do you expect?

There were members here who were willing to go to the ramparts to defend Augusta National's male only membership policy.

[muffin1]

128. Your attitude makes me sick.

Suppose I was talking about your hero and said, "Man, that was so negro"? What do you think the reaction on this board would be? What would your reaction be?

[Shell Beau]

44. If you know it is offensive to gay people, why would you still

choose to use it?

[Toasterlad]

40. You People In the Just Sayin' Community Have It Rough.

Someday, I hope you'll be able to marry and serve in the military.

[muffin1]

41. Yeah, that's the same...

:eyes:

[VMI Dem]

73. You are as insensitive to gays as your namesake.

Just sayin'.

[muffin1]

84. +1

He would be so proud...

[Bluebear]

88. +1

[pnwmom]

98. That's not analogous. "That's so gay" connects the word "gay" with something negative.

It would be equivalent to saying "that's so Jewish" as a slur. No would here would do it.

[fishwax]

130. gosh, that's almost the same thing

:eyes:

[LanternWaste]

175. What precisely is insulting about the phrase, "just sayin'..."?

What precisely is insulting about the phrase, "just sayin'..."?

[Brickbat]

27. I avoid both "gay" and "lame" as an insult. As a professional writer and editor, I make myself and

my kids pay attention to what we're trying to say. Is whatever we're talking about disappointing? Annoying? Infuriating? A lackluster effort? An unjustifiable rule? An idea that has no supporters? Whatever it is, "gay" and "lame" (as well as "retarded") have no place in describing it.

[Shell Beau]

34. How can gay being equivalent to lame not be offensive?

I've never heard anyone say that's so gay and mean that's so happy.

[Echo In Light]

36. Precisely

[Bluebear]

45. Cue calls of "everyone is too PC" and "poutrage" and "looking to be offended"

It is so predictable anymore.

[Shell Beau]

52. I agree things can get too PC from time to time, but if someone is

genuinely hurt by comments, why still use them? The gay community has enough to deal with.

[wakemewhenitsover]

37. Agreed.

Roots of words matter, and anyone who doesn't know the homophobic roots of the expression, "That's gay" needs a little consciousness-raising.

[Divine Discontent]

42. yes, it's horrible. sadly, the youth tend to say it because they're less educated, they need

something short to say to imply something is not cool. And yes, some smarter kids just say that - not cool.

[Captain Hilts]

61. And Jon Stewart's got people calling each other "pussies" and "douches." nt

[Divine Discontent]

105. pussies? that's not cool. I don't watch him (no cable) but he should know better.

[iris27]

112. For as much as I love Jon, he really is fairly clueless in the sexism and racism departments.

Exhibit A - the sketch the other night with Michael Steele the jive-talking blue muppet. I'm sure he thought, "well, a black guy on staff is doing the voice - it MUST be ok!"

[Captain Hilts]

168. I'm starting to think he's just insensitive. How can he not know? I don't see the show often

because I don't have cable.

[donco6]

50. I hate it.

I find it offensive. I correct kids when I hear them say it.

[CurtEastPoint]

54. My 14 y/o great niece joined the FB group against using 'so gay' as an insult. Good for her! n/t

[muffin1]

55. That's fantastic. I'm sure you've told her how proud you are of her.

My ex has a relative who's about 18, and she's quite the activist, too. I love seeing kids getting involved early. There IS hope that all of this hate will be old news one day. I only wish I would see it in my lifetime.

[Dr Morbius]

57. Something I like to tell people:

In a nation founded upon the principle of free speech, OF COURSE WORDS MATTER!

Duh!

I recall once a coworker complain about an inventory control system I developed. I asked him what was wrong. He said, "It's so GAY!" I mentally began counting to ten and asked him quietly if he could offer something more constructive, and confine his comments in the future to that which was constructive. It worked; I never heard that guy again use the phrase.

But then, when I lower my voice, strangely, people take me more seriously. Kinda weird, that. It's like a "command voice" that I have. My father was an Air Force sergeant; his "command voice" was altogether different (kinda scary, too, when you're a kid!). I wonder where I got that quiet voice.

So that's what I do. Someone uses the word "lame" or "gay" in a derogatory way, I ask them for something more constructive. Stressing the idea of constructiveness helps, I think. Don't get me started on the "R" word, either, also frequently used as a derogatory word.

It's like some people need to look down on someone, so they decide this group or that is defective. I hate it.

[donco6]

58. I call it "teacher voice."

It works the same way.

[d_r]

59. I hate it too, but

I really do hate it, because it can be hurtful if used that way. I think words have power, and that words can hurt, and I don't like words that do.

Here's the but. I wish there was another word that had the same nuanced meaning. There really isn't one that is the same. It isn't exactly "lame" and it isn't exactly "dorky."

It also doesn't mean "gay" as in homosexual; there is a different nuance. You know sometimes words can have two meanings. Just like the Flintstones didn't mean "homosexual" when they sang about having a "gay ole' time." But this is a particularly difficult one, because I don't think that some people see the different meaning for it, and they take it is an insult to homosexuals.

So I don't use it. I also try not to use "gyped" or "going dutch" for that matter. Or "retarded." Or "spastic." There are a host of other words that are "useful" in that they have a very specific meaning or connotation that other words don't have, but if someone hears them as hurtful it just isn't worth it.

[Captain Hilts]

60. And it's sexist to insult a man by calling him a "pussy" or "douche" but no one cares. nt

[BlueStater]

67. Yeah. You're right.

I've been guilty of using some of that in the past. When certain slang catches on, it's hard to stop using it. But defending it is another story.

And, for the record, I had no idea the word "lame" even meant "crippled". And, judging from how I see used all the time (including on this board), apparently most everyone else didn't either.

[Captain Hilts]

68. Wow! I didn't know the 'lame' thing either. I've picked that one up here. nt

[BlueStater]

72. I think there's a difference, though.

Most people don't use the word "lame" to describe a person whose legs don't work. The same cannot be said for "gay" or "retarded".

[mitchtv]

152. Lame is popular with the equine crowd

that's where I 've heard it, with horses, not people

[madinmaryland]

102. "lame". I hadn't heard that was incorrect. I've always use things like

"lame excuse"

Is that wrong?

[Dr Morbius]

122. It equates physical impairment - lameness - with negativity.

And is it wrong? Well, I think so. It reinforces the unfortunate meme that it's acceptable to see others as lesser than oneself or one's group, and that is a cornerstone in much of what's wrong with the world. White men saw themselves as superior, both to women and all other races. Men of every race still see themselves as superior to women, and women of every race see themselves as superior to men.

Not all men and women. But the innate exceptionalism, the idea that "I am better than X" is the root of the problem. Some straight people see themselves as superior to gays, and some gays derisively look down on "breeders". It has always been the nature of humanity to do this, for some subsection of all peoples to look down on another group. So it's really ingrained into us; what can we do? Is it possible to combat this thing about humans which is so obviously toxic? Maybe; maybe not. But what we can do, and what we should do, is try to stop perpetuating the exceptionalism in our speech and our conduct.

For example, I am married to a woman who was classified as "retarded" and treated like she was mentally defective for the first quarter century of her life. We met on a blind date; I made her laugh; we became instantly comfortable together. I didn't even know for a few weeks that her family thought she was retarded. She had a learning disability; she still doesn't like to read. But she's no dummy. She is probably not as smart as myself but in many ways, she's far wiser. In many ways, when we started dating and she got to realizing that hey, maybe there was nothing WRONG with her, she came out from her shell and grew as a person. She's a wonderfully dedicated mother these days and I can't fool her for a second.

I also have known many people - you see them all the time but probably don't notice them, for they are invisible to most of us - who would legitimately be described as mentally impaired, and you know what? There's nothing wrong with them, either. They live their lives at a different speed than the rest of us, and they take longer to think. But wisdom can come from anyone, and some of the wisest words I ever heard came from the mouth of a man most would call "retarded."

Negative labels hurt, and worse yet, they hold people back. So based on my personal experience I think it's wrong to use any of them casually, and probably best avoided by folks who care. "Lame" isn't as nasty, I suppose, and I know there's no hurtful intent. But I say it's best not to use it.

And in the future, count on learning that other words have negative connotations too, connotations we do not now see. Because it isn't the words we're combating; it's the pain associated with them.

[madinmaryland]

137. I hadn't thought of actually associating lame with disabled people, assuming

that disabled is acceptable.

I guess I just don't think that way.

[madinmaryland]

138. I guess now I will have to say it is a "piss-poor" excuse.

[pnwmom]

188. Lame means "weak," according to my dictionary.

As in a "lame excuse" or a "lame argument."

The word "gay" has never been associated with a negative quality -- until now.

[bettyellen]

134. i think we call them disabled now because lame was so offensive, so its confusng!

[pnwmom]

111. Lame also means "weak," as in a "lame argument." The word gay doesn't mean weak. n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

76. Or even a girl

As if being a girl is a bad thing...

[Captain Hilts]

80. Yes! WHAT could be worse than being called a 'girl'!!! Good point. nt

[iris27]

110. Some of us care. nt

[Captain Hilts]

147. Keep the faith, Iris27!

[Whisp]

62. I know some otherswise smart people (or thought they were) who say that...

and when I point out how wrong it is, they just don't get it. usually.

one exception lately, talking to a relative about the why nots of it.

I said basically, and this is what changed her stubborm mind totally, basically that it wasn't for Us to decide what was wrong with that word, it was for gay people to decide and they don't like it.

It worked. my stubborn sister who usually never gives in to anything, pondered, actually thought about it, and said, ok, I see what you mean now.

precious moment. very rare.

[iris27]

63. LOL...I initially read your first sentence as "I'm just curious what you GAYS think about it". :)

I pretty much share your opinion. And honestly, the defense that it's evolved to mean the same as "lame" isn't any better..."lame" is in the same category as "retarded" IMO and should be something we try to avoid as well.

[fizzgig]

69. i get on people at work when they use it

my job involves managing several dozen 18-22 year olds and i hear that phrase used quite often (i do hear some older employees use it, but it's primarily the younger ones).

i always ask them what exactly was homosexual about the situation and, when they look at me dumbfounded, i tell them to find a new pejorative. i get the feeling these kids aren't used to being called on stuff like that, but that's a whole different topic.

[Qutzupalotl]

86. Good comeback. Thanks. n/t

[Lisa0825]

127. Good for you! I have stopped total strangers in a stre to tell them off for it.

I doubt it helped, but it made me feel good!

[uppityperson]

153. "what exactly was homosexual about the situation" is a VERY good comeback.

I've asked kids this also and they look at me blankly, then say "that's NOT what I meant".

[JerseygirlCT]

75. I don't let it go uncorrected

And usually manage to embarrass whoever has tried it.

[devilgrrl]

85. I've said it before. Not as an insult but because whatever it was - was totally gay!

Ask my gay peeps. They thought it was gay gay gay too.

[Smarmie Doofus]

103. The banality of evil. It may be mindless but it's contemtptible. nt

[Unvanguard]

115. It's homophobic, it's offensive, it should not be tolerated. n/t

[WeekendWarrior]

116. I think it's terrible. nt.

[ccharles000]

121. I think it is an insult

[timtom]

125. I continue to use "gay" in its original meaning.

Lots and lots of music I listen uses the word "gay" in the sense of festive, brightly decorated, merry, etc. I have movies wherein someone says, "I'm gay," or, "I'm not gay." They do not mean it in its 21st century meaning.

However, you are right. Young people use it in a disparaging way, with the homosexual reference. And that's wrong.

[uppityperson]

154. As in John Denver singing "sunshine on my shoulder makes me happy, sunshine on my shoulder makes me

gay". Times change and using it in a pejorative way isn't cool.

[donco6]

131. The majority of gays here have said it's offensive.

But that's not going to stop some from defending it. What's that tell you about them?

[Bluebear]

136. All you need to know.

[uppityperson]

155. +1 with sadness. nt

[myrna minx]

176. All you ever need to know about their character.

:-(

[guitar man]

133. It is vile

My right wing republican sister won't let her kids use it because even she realizes it is a hurtful slur. That should tell you everything you need to know about it .

[and-justice-for-all]

139. It is used as a negative...which makes it bad...nt

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

140. I don't think teenagers think about it too much....

That is to say that if it's considered the "in phrase" this year, they're going to use it.

That being said, one of my son's buddies (12 years old) used the phrase in the presence of my 15-year-old daughter yesterday.

Her response: Get a new adjective, jerk.

I love my daughter.

[pnwmom]

146. They don't, but they should -- and will, if approached about it. The best is

exactly what you reported -- an older peer telling them off.

But an older adult can also explain that even though the teen didn't mean the expression in a hurtful way, it can still hurt a gay person, or anyone who loves them, to hear it.

[TuxedoKat]

143. Yes, it's offensive

Two years ago or so when I heard my daughter (then 10-11 years) and her friends using that phrase, I carefully explained to her that it was homophobic and hurtful (I don't think it had registered with her that way until I explained it). She stopped using it and at that same time started speaking out against homophobia when she heard friends or schoolmates use that phrase or make other homophobic remarks. Very proud of her!

I had never thought of the term "lame excuse" being offensive. If I used it, it was in the sense of meaning weak, not in denigrating a group of people who are lame. Now that I see what others have said about it, I won't use lame that way again, if I ever did.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

144. Then there's the word "dumb".

"Dumb" actually means "not capable of speech".

As in "deaf, dumb and blind" like Tommy the Pinball Wizard in fiction.

"Dumb" turned into a pejorative synonym for stupid.


When I was a kid I got called a queer about 900 times a day and I hated it. This was before the word gay was fashionable. Whether I was homosexual or not was irrelevant, it was the worst insult they could think of.

I still hate the word "queer" because of it. And I happen to be straight. But the little bastards in high school just want to hurt people.

And I don't believe men should be called "girls" or by female parts to insult them. "Wussy" is pretty close to insulting.

[Odin2005]

145. Another word I hate: "Spaz", it's a reference to a person with Cerebral Palsy.

And being that my best friend has CP, I REALLY hate the term.

[uppityperson]

150. My mom was wonderful, had MS. She tripped once, friend said "are you spastic?"in one of those voices

She looked him in the eye and said "well, matter of fact, yes, I am". He immediately apologized, had never thought of what it meant.

[Bluebear]

156. I hate that term as well.

[Codeine]

158. I am amused

that many DUers will remind us that language evolves to support whatever linguistic nonsense they like to use - recall the recent argument about "irregardless" and double-negatives, or dialects - but hit the roof at the suggestion that "gay" has merely taken on a new, third meaning. It had to change to become a word applied to homosexuals, no? Why can it not assume a further meaning? :shrug:

[TokenQueer]

163. There was an "irregardless" thread? Pet peeve of mine...glad I missed it.

Regarding your position that "gay" can assume further meaning, the LGBT community adopted this word to self-identify as an intentional nod to the original definition of the term (meaning happy). To use this as a defense for now hijacking the word to mean the exact opposite of the word's definition is some teabagger logic at best.

It's offensive...you know that...and you know why.

[fishwax]

179. they're not really similar issues at all

People aren't reacting negatively to the use of gay as an insult because they're afraid of language changing.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JoeyT]

160. The meaning of words does change over time

but it hardly applies when the word in question is still being used.

I've little problem with outdated insults and neither does anyone else. At least they don't if they use the words: Idiot, dumb, imbecile, stupid, moron, cretin, or pretty much any other word that describes dumbassery. All of them were used to describe a medical condition in their day. They're just not offensive now because their day was hundreds of years ago. The same can't be said for gay.

[Prism]

164. Depends who's saying it. I've mostly given up being offended by it.

My attitude towards the phrase is probably illogical and contradictory, and I know I should be fiercely against it, but . . .

It's so ubiquitous with younger people that I stopped bothering to correct it with them nor do I let it bother me personally when they use it. In their minds, the word is divorced from the sexuality. These are people with LGBT friends and family who think absolutely nothing negative towards different orientations. They're an integrated part of the social fabric. Yet the phrase is so embedded in their vernacular, it just comes flying out.

When I'm in a setting that is mostly 30 and under, I often feel like I would be having the "Don't say that, please," conversation literally every ten minutes with someone if I took umbrage. And it isn't as if people aren't aware. It's somewhat darkly amusing to be hanging out in a group of straight twenty-somethings, have someone go "That's so gay," then immediately watch their eyes snap in my direction, a look of horrified realization on their face, and the fumbling, "I'm sorry, I didn't mean gay gay, I meant . . . I'm sorry!"

The key difference, I think, is that it largely isn't an inherited slur. Usually, slurs are handed down from older generations, only to peter out in younger generations as attitudes change and acceptance spreads. "That's so gay," is more of a youth-up construct, if that makes sense. Rather than dying out, it's thriving and being reinforced as millenials increasingly influence culture.

Eventually, as I came to realize the phrase really had very little to do with orientation in the minds of most current users - and that it wasn't going anywhere no matter how much fuss is made over it - I stopped bothering and stopped caring. Now, when I hear it, I don't give it any thought at all. I only ever notice someone's said it when they immediately apologize to me for it. My reply is usually "Oh, God, who cares?"

On the flip side.

I cannot stand it from an older adult. Maybe 30+. They should know better, and typically the ones I hear saying it have a history of hostility to LBGTers. Someone older than me saying it is met with a very stony response. It's too jarring, too unnatural, and there's too much generational history to easily countenance it.

So, like I said, illogical, but it's not the hill I'm going to die on. It is what it is. My ears only perk up at faggot. That word I cannot and will not abide no matter what the context.

[redqueen]

183. Interesting point re: it being a youth-up construct. (nt)

[bamacrat]

169. It's probably not the best thing to say but...

I have many gay friends who use it to mean something stupid or lame. I believe it is all in the intent. And no for those who are going to ask, the "n" word is not ok, even though black people use it. Fag is derogatory and offensive but gay has lost alot of its meaning.

[myrna minx]

177. This thread has scores of LGBT people telling you it has *not* lost all meaning.

I suggest you reread the thread.

[bamacrat]

181. I don't say it to them or in front of them. So...

Words are just words it is the meaning behind them that matters. I don't deride gay people ever, nor do I refer to black people as niggers. If I choose to use the word gay to describe something other than a gay person in the confides of my home with people who do not get offended at everything that is my choice and right. I do not like the word fag because it solely calls out gay people and is a slight against them. But I do not worry about being PC about everything, words have meanings other than derogatory hate.

[muffin1]

186. Then exactly what do you mean

when you say, 'that's so gay'? What is the implication?

[bamacrat]

187. Well many things....

If someone is acting homosexually, I mean they are acting homosexually. I know the stereotype of the flaming man is not indicative of all gay men but that's what I mean. Sometimes it refers to stupid, but does not imply gay people are stupid. Gay didn't originally mean homosexual it meant happy, or glad. I don't feel that my usage of gay slights any real homosexual, it is just a word to convey an idea or thought.

[muffin1]

191. So, when you use 'gay' to refer to something stupid,

you mean 'happy' or 'glad'? I don't think so.

And acting 'homesexually'? What the fuck does that mean? Please be explicit.

[slackmaster]

171. I stopped using it many years ago

I recommend not using it.

[mod mom]

178. Just had this conversation w my 13 yo, who isn't homophobic.

He just picked up a bad habit of using "gay" to mean lame and just used it in my presence to refer to music he perceived as lame. I asked him if he had a problem with people who are gay (we have several gay friends) and he replied "no" and didn't see the term as related to people who were gay. I informed him it was the same as using a racial term in a derogatory manner and I hoped he understood that when people use terms like that they are insulting an undeserving population. I think if you explain this to most young people their awareness will lead to a correction.

[pnwmom]

189. I agree. The same thing happened talking to a teen I know.

She just hadn't thought about how using that word might feel to someone else -- and she acknowledged that her best friend's brother was gay, and she wouldn't want to hurt him or his sister.

[Love Bug]

182. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the negative use of "gay" goes back to 1978

Considering how the meaning of words change over time, I decided to look up "gay" in the Oxford English dictionary. There have been many meanings over time but until recently they are almost all of them POSITIVE. Here's the definition we're discussing here:

e. slang (chiefly U.S.) (sometimes considered offensive). Foolish, stupid, socially inappropriate or disapproved of; ‘lame’.

1978 G. KIMBERLY Skateboard 41 ‘It looks terrific on you.’ ‘It looks gay.’ 1987 Creem Close-up Presents No. 1. 6 Your so-stupid-they're-funny captions are gay. Get into some humor. 1999 T. PARKER & M. STONE Cartman's Mom is Dirty Slut in South Park Scripts: Bk. 1 150 (stage direct.) As the camera zooms in on their faces, that gay ‘Near/Far’ song from ‘Titanic’ plays. 2001 Washington Post 8 May C9 Today, they often use gay as an adjective meaning ‘stupid’... A gay movie is a stupid movie or one that makes no sense or one with a lame plot or all of those things. 2002 Independent 3 Oct. 21/3 At lastthe first official confirmation that the term ‘gay’ has now ousted ‘pants’ as the popular youth slang for ‘naff’.


Funny how the negative meanings don't really start until after the word becomes synonymous with 'homosexual.' Hmmmm... I wonder why that is.... Also, is anyone here surprised to see a reference to South Park? Oh, and the use is chiefly in the U.S.? I'm so proud... :sarcasm: