It's the Corporate Feudalism, Stupid

[nashville_brook]

What the teabaggers need to understand: we're all serfs under the new feudalism their beloved leaders have created.

One thing I'd like to ask a teabagger: How are things where you work, these days? My work fucking sucks right now. Compared to 5, 10, 15 years ago, the stress level is off the charts. On the best days there's just a mopey resignation wafting about our cubicles. On bad days it's like we're all suicidal gerbils running for our lives in sharp, rusty wheels, terrified that we'll be the next rat kicked out of the cage.

We're exhausted and the positive reinforcements (raises, bonuses, vacations) that used to mitigate burnout are vague memories. And the kicker is, as much as work sucks it really sucks to be unemployed right now.

With every shitty day, I'm feeling less like a free person selling my labor on an open market, and more like a serf whose labor is coerced if not enforced de facto. No more carrots. Only sticks.

The New Serfdom
Serfs have no "right" to work. Instead we serve at the pleasure of our lords who bestow certain protections upon us (such as living in a house, and seeing a doctor). We enjoy these "protections" only for as long as we please our lords. There is no check on the power that's exercised in the workplace. You either suck it up or get the hell out. Often you suck up as much as possible, and you still get shit-canned. Fail to impress the wrong person at work and you face Depression-era hardships that may include homelessness, and without insurance, dying from readily curable diseases. If there's a better description of the Shock Doctrine I'd like to hear it.

The economic crisis was engineered by the lords of finance who gamed our corrupt system with transactions opaque enough to hide their looting, and the fallout from this has changed the nature of employment. There's no "free market" of labor anymore. We used to have the illusion of a free market during the dot-com bubble when you could quit your job on Tuesday and have a couple of better offers by Thursday. When there's no option other than the grave conditions at your current workplace, then you don't have a choice -- your labor is coerced, and you'll accept longer hours and less pay because there's no alternative. I believe this is fueling much of the rank-and-file teabagger anger. And it's pissing me off too.

Corporate Klepto-Feudalism
Imagine you're a new feudal lord. How valuable do you think our serfdom is? They're balancing their books on our desperation and declining salaries because they know our fealty and productivity are proportional to our level of insecurity. Things aren't going to improve for us without a fight, and right now, the only people riled up are bruising for the wrong side. The elite haven't seen this kind of power since the beginning of the industrial revolution. In a declining economy, our enslavement is jealously guarded with obscene amounts of money thrown at swarms of lawyers and lobbyists...and teabaggers themselves.

So, this is modern feudalism: the tyranny of the quarterly report. The nihilism of free-for-all capitalism has finally trickled down to your cubicle like you always knew it would. Those 29 miners died because their feudal lord was long ago awarded his own Divine Right of Kings by the kleptocracy that protects only those who pay. The judges, lawmakers and regulators whose job it was to keep those miners alive are still more interested in begging for crumbs from Massey's table, and kissing his ring than they are in doing their stated job, which is supposed to be looking after us, their constituents, and the engine of the economy. Massey can do no wrong because lords are not subject to earthly laws, that's what the Divine Right of Kings means. Ironically, this was the fundamental outrage of the original tea party: pushback against King George's divine right to our wealth and labor.

It's tragic that instead of standing up to the real villains, the tea baggers have been co-opted by the very powers at the core of their grievance. But the truth is, they'll only get coverage on FOX News as long as they're doing the bidding of their feudal lords. The second they realize they've been had, there won't be a TV camera in sight. They'll be as invisible as the war protesters and environmental activists. Which is to say, they'll no longer have the King's purse behind them.

And that's when things might get interesting.

[Lost4words]

1. we are so easily lead, Someday humans will evolve, nah!

[nashville_brook]

9. i think the ones to evolve are going to have find an island like the Galapagos where we

can do so unimpeded.

[liberation]

34. I am partial to leaving the planet... for real there has to be some intelligence out there in space

The gist of capitalism is fascinating to me.

One can not eat "capital," we can not build anything out of "capital," heck we can not even refine "capital" into anything useful. Why? Because it is something purely theoretical and thus inexistent. It is own purpose, this is... it's a means which is its own ends. It is the biggest scam ever perpetrated to charge "interest" on something which is invisible.

Alas, the genius of capitalists is that they not only managed to convince labor that their non existent "invisible" product was worth more than the actual labor needed to realize physically what capital pretends to "measure." But they manage to make our whole existence dependent on something which does not exist but which "definition" they control, and that on its own... is rather worthless.

That is why economic "cycles" of capitalism seem to me more like a suicide by placebo, more than anything else.


Oh, well... I guess chapeau to the first asshole who decided to pull this scam on us. Fairly ingenious, evil as fuck, but ingenious none the less.

[Lost4words]

35. I like to blame Milton Friedman, but there are many others.

no really, if I ever get to CHicago I'm gonna go piss on Milton Friedmans Grave.

[nashville_brook]

42. that needs to be the new "burning man"! the Pissing Friedman festival!! i'm in, man.

[Lost4words]

44. lol me too! Im gonna fill up w/beer & coffee first,... nt

:toast:

[nashville_brook]

45. beer and asparagus for me!!

[Lost4words]

46. OMG! I know what that means! LOLOLOL

you are a real nut you know that? LOL

[nashville_brook]

61. :) thanky! i work hard at it!

:evilgrin:

[RoccoR5955]

63. He's buried on Long Island, not Chicago...

Elmont, at the Beth David Cemetary, 300 Elmont Rd., to be exact. It's a big place.

[nashville_brook]

64. excellent -- big enough to accommodate The Pissing Friedman and Asparagus Festival

:evilgrin:

[nashville_brook]

41. "suicide by placebo" -- that is a nice turn of phrase!

i've been waiting for the UFOs to take me away for a LONG time. i'm hoping for a planet with plenty of shoreline and a 30-hour work-week.


"capital" is useful to elite capitalists b/c they can manipulate it. you can't manipulate a goat that's traded for grain. you can't manipulate textiles that are traded for cheese.

[unpossibles]

83. I'm not sure evolution works that way

but I do like the idea, although I am skeptical of utopias.

[breadandwine]

94. Aw, stop pickin' on corporations. They're people! Here -- sing this song ---

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8181493

[rocktivity]

2. Now we know what to to say

The next time they say "socalism."

:headbang:
rocktivity

[Catshrink]

5. I like to ask them what it means.

[nashville_brook]

7. "socialism" wouldn't exist if the wealthiest among us weren't looters.

"socialism" in it's original form, is the banding together of workers to protect ourselves and our families against corporate aggression.

Like in football: D-Fence. D-Fence.

[DirkGently]

3. Fucking infuriating ... and right on point

That's a beautiful bit of Sunday morning outrage, nashville_brook.

This IS what we're up against. Look at what's causing the "rebound" in the economy the banks imploded by sucking too hard on their golden straws -- *worker productivity*. Sounds nice, but deconstruct that. WE do more. THEY pay less. And after the latest burst bubble subsides, do things go back to normal? Not bloody likely. Worker benefits in the U.S. tend to be on a one-way downward ratchet if you don't happen to be in the hedge fund, or derivative swapping business.

So, let's review. After paying billions in corporate welfare hand-outs, the only other teensy thing the "wealth creators" need from ordinary Americans is just a leeetle more of our sweat, blood, and tears. A few more hours in the office. A little less vacation. Scratch those pension contributions (just for now, you know). Oh, and maybe your health insurance payments are up and your benefits go down. CEO pay has to stay the same though. We have to hold on to the "TALENT" that put us in this position, we're told.

The version of "free market" capitalism that informs our modern corporate ethos is worse than empty. Worse than corrupt. It IS feudalism, and robber-baronism, and it's become ensconced in the law itself. It's actually illegal, not to mention the basis for a lawsuit, for management of a publicly traded company to make decisions that might harm stock prices. So things like sustainability, fairness, contribution to society, not only aren't considered in the business of being in business -- we've made it illegal. Our only analysis for whether a corporation is doing the right thing has become whether and to what extent it made a profit last quarter (and the more, the better, ad infinitum). Higher stock values benefit everyone, we're assured.

Why is that? Why would we NOT have a national corporate ethos that includes the holistic impact of a business activity on the community, the workers, the environment, the country? Why shouldn't the goal of a successful business be to keep profits steady, while continually improving the conditions of the business's employees and surroundings? How is the hell did we find ourselves in an environment where the goal of every major business is to make a few dozen people ludicrously wealthy by taking the maximum advantage of every other person, plant, or mineral involved? How did we get to a place where the mindless, heedless pursuit of not just greed but infinite greed is the assumed goal of every business, while (conveniently) the American "work ethic" has come to mean working for a microscopic fraction of the boss's take?

We went wrong somewhere, and we can't afford to miss the point this time.

[nashville_brook]

4. i read recently, that after WW2 it was negotiated that German corps would have employee leadship

the idea at the time was to avoid another fascistic manipulation of the nations companies, but it's had the long-standing effect of providing some of the world's best working conditions some 55 years later.

A company that has employees "on the board" serving employee interests, is the mirror opposite of what we have in the US in 2010. Our leadership's role is literally to squeeze us to the max, and there's carrot or stick held over them to do otherwise.


if someone recognizes this German bit, please tell me where i read it -- Taibbi, Sirota? I could have sworn it was on CommonDreams, but now I can't find and would love to provide a link.

[starroute]

13. It was posted here at DU on Friday

It's an article on Harper's which is behind a paywall -- but a decent chunk of it got posted at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x77801

[nashville_brook]

17. hell yes!!! thank you!! -- this article really made me jump. Harper's has a way doing that.

[nashville_brook]

26. from the article --> WORK COUNCILS

http://harpers.org/archive/2010/03/0082859

Why is Germany beating us? It’s tempting to say it’s because we beat them. After all, we helped put a major component of the German model in place, which is the role that German workers have in running their firms. After World War II, we had a problem: Who would keep watch over all the German businessmen who had supported Hitler? We couldn’t put them all in jail. Back in that New Deal era, we and our allies were quite willing to put workers on the boards to keep an eye on businessmen. Still, the idea of works councils was not invented by Americans. In fact, it had its origins in Weimar Germany. And now Germany is the country, out of all countries, including Communist China, in which workers have the greatest amount of control over (dare I say it) the means of production.

Okay, it’s not that much control. But it’s enough to make the German system a rival form of capitalism. And because German workers are at the table when the big decisions are made, and elect people who still watch and sometimes check the businessmen, they have been able to hang on to their manufacturing sector. They have kept a tool-making, engineering culture, which our own entrepreneurs, dreamily buried in their Ayn Rand novels, have gutted. And now, thanks in large part to these smart structural decisions, Germany is not only competitive, it’s rich. Although it’s unlikely that even the most liberal of American politicians would ever use a phrase like “worker control”—much less describe people who work as “workers”—it might still be worth at least considering what would be involved in emulating the German model.

Let me here cart out the big three building blocks of German social democracy: the works council, the co-determined board, and Germany’s regional wage-setting institutions. If I were teaching a class, I’d put these up on the blackboard and talk about them at the beginning of every class. “What do I mean by the German model? I’d like to see hands.” No one knows. So I give the answer: “It’s the works council, the co-determined board, and the wage-setting institutions.”

Everyone in class groans. Whatever does that mean?

Well, the works council is simple in theory, though hard for an American to take in. Let’s say you work at the Barnes & Noble at the corner of Clybourn and Webster avenues in Chicago. You may be just a clerk, no degree. (In Germany, you’d have a certificate in bookstore clerking, but in the United States there’s no need.) Still, you could be elected to a works council at this store. That means you help manage the place. You help decide when to open and close the store. You help decide who gets what shift. On layoffs and other issues, the employer must reach an agreement with the works council. So you may ultimately decide whether Ms. X is to be laid off or fired. How did you get into this kind of “management”? Barnes & Noble had no say in it. You were elected by your fellow workers. You went out and campaigned: “Elect me.”

[dotymed]

68. After WWII, FDR was instrumental

in creating this structure of workers having some control over production. FDR also wanted to install a second "bill of rights" that would protect American workers from the vicious, greedy capitalistic system. This 2nd "bill of rights" also included universal healthcare. He was the main force behind "reconstruction" of the war torn countries, including Japan and Europe. His ideas have been so successful that these countries are able to thrive and have real citizen participation. Of course the Elites (of which he was one) would not even consider "giving" Americans the same rights. So here we are. A nation where 95% of us are miserable and government controlled. We have few freedoms and we are basically serfs in a feudal system. Throughout our short history, Americans have been known to fight off corporate and government tyranny. They have become one and the same. Maybe the "teabaggers" will realize this, especially when rethuglican congresspeople begin to officially refuse to REinstate restrictions on our financial sector. I won't hold my breath. David Swanson, tells me that the REinstatement of the FAIRNESS DOCTRINE won't be helpful. he says it may be a small step in the right direction....How can that not be helpful? Forcing fox teevee and R.W. radio to give free airtime (the people own the airwaves) to people with a different viewpoint from that of Roger Ailles and his corporate buddies. Maybe that will be an impetus to awaken these teabaggers. Many of their complaints are similar to ours but their conclusions are based on the fox propaganda machine, and the MSM propaganda in general. The teabaggers are furious about REinstating the FAIRNESS DOCTRINE. Why? Their corporate propagandists have told them that it is Socialism. Well, until raygun had it killed our country did very well with it. We were among the best informed citizens in the world. I believe that unless raygun had this doctrine revoked, the evil capitalists would have never been able to destruct our country to this extent. The people would have been informed.

[liberation]

77. After WWII? FDR did not survive that war

I am a bit confused regarding the historical context you are trying to provide (I don't disagree with the gist of your message though).

[Subdivisions]

22. Which begs the question...

Why do we continue to tolerate such a system?

Not only do we tolerate it but we eagerly buy into it. We talk a big game about changing the system by changing political leadership. When has that EVER worked?

[nashville_brook]

25. we're "tolerating" it because we have life and death responsibilities to our families and our own

lives. that's exactly where the pressure needs to be exerted -- we have to regain the control of our working lives. workers need the freedom to say no. workers need the freedom to reject inhumane working conditions. on edit -- which isn't really "tolerating" it all -- it's coerced.

I'll tell you when that actually worked. it worked in the 30s and 40s when our grandparents won all the freedoms we've since lost.

[Juche]

56. a variety of reasons

Off the top of my head

1. We live in a society where we've been taught to disdain the weak and vulnerable, and by proxy disdain anything to help them. We associate them with laziness, irresponsibility and stupidity, and we are told they are black, latino, single mothers, etc. So all the protections to protect 'the weak' like unions, minimum wages, are just for societies 'losers'. Not for a winner like you (the generic 'you' who buys this, not you personally). Hell no. You don't need a union or worker protections. You are white, intelligent and hard working. Those regulations are for the losers, not for you. You'd be surprised how often I see this attitude, or a form of it here in wingnuttia, Indiana.

2. People are told that supply side economics leads to boatloads of high paying jobs. Gives all the capital to the wealthy and remove all of their regulations, and they will create tons of high paying jobs. It never happens (the Bush admin was the worst decade in 70 years for job creation), but it is a myth people enjoy.

3. Habit. Like religion or attitudes on sports (everyone loves the sports team from the state they are from), people just absorb the common attitudes around them.

[nashville_brook]

59. we're delusional -- we're never going to be power elite, and yet they're protected

as if they're our children.

[Prof Lester]

93. Really there is no "we"

"we" is a rhetoric device doesn't exist in the real world. There are thousands and thousands of small groups of folks and a whole bunch of completely atomized, socially isolated, "anomic" type folks wandering around in a hypnotic state created by television and further controlled by RW radio. Not to mention drugs. The actual number of committed, caring, intelligent, socially active and socially responsible folks is minuscule. And "they" know it.

The actual question is what can "we" -- the intelligent few that are reading this stuff -- do about any of this? ORGANIZE! ORGANIZE! ORGANIZE! Never stop. Never give a inch.

[nashville_brook]

62. wealth "creation" is fraud -- see for instance "Magnetar" -- ProPublica is the best source for this

http://www.propublica.org/feature/your-magnetar-questions-answered

[truedelphi]

98. And today it seems like Democrats can be happy because

we are finally putting the screws on Goldman Sachs... But is that what will really truly happen? Or is this just a signal that more lobbyists had better show up and offer more money to the Senators and the Folks sitting in their seats as our Reps?

I hope the lawsuit goes down fast and heavy on Goldman Sachs, but we've been played so many times before, I must wait to see what happens before I will breath a sigh of relief.

[deutsey]

6. Excellent post.

Although depressing, it articulates my own thoughts well.

[nashville_brook]

8. thanks, it's been bubbling up for a while.

i've been angry too, and that makes it difficult for me to organize my feelings into a coherent thought.

[deutsey]

10. Well, you managed to contain the anger within a coherent moment of truth.

:thumbsup:

[nashville_brook]

29. ...

:bounce:

[socialist_n_TN]

11. I guess that's Nashville as in TN?...................

Madison here.

You're right on in your analysis of the situation. The only thing I'd want to add is that this isn't new. This IS the very goal of capitalism. Now sometimes it is hidden by worker shortages which allow us a modicum of control over our working conditions, but in ANY downturn no matter how slight, exploitation of the workers rears it's ugly head. They want to take us back to the 50s, but it's the EIGHTEEN fifties that they want to take us back to.

The teabaggers are today's dupes of the system, but even that's not new. The ruling class will ALWAYS find a dupe that they can use to divide the workers. The teabaggers are just the latest in a long line of dupes who do the bidding of the elite against their own interests.

[deutsey]

12. The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion.

At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.

— Frank Zappa

[nashville_brook]

18. zappa had cosmically-tuned bullshit detectors.

[nashville_brook]

15. formerly Nashville, Johnson City and Kingsport -- but now a returned Florida native

I totally spaced-out during the last name-change jubilee, otherwise I would be orlando_brook now.

You hit on the "other half" of my essay that I cut b/c it was getter too long -- this is maddening b/c we have the roadmap for where it leads. We've been through this before. We were supposed to learn about it in school. These are exactly the battles our grandparents fought in the hopes that we wouldn't have to.

[socialist_n_TN]

19. Yep. The ONLY saving grace to ....................

the worker exploitation situation is that more and more workers get fed up and start THINKING instead of reacting. I saw a poll the other day (I'm not even sure where) that said something along to lines of 33% of the people polled did NOT have a negative reaction to the word "socialist". That's actually HUGE progress. :) Unfortunately, it looks like a battle that we have to fight over and over again. Frustrating and tiresome. As Chris Hayes at the Nation says (paraphrasing), leftie politics is a calling, not a job. That's because you're ALWAYS going to be out-dollared and out-propagandized.

[nashville_brook]

27. Gallup -- 36% Americans view socialism positively

http://www.gallup.com/poll/125645/socialism-viewed-positively-americans.aspx

[socialist_n_TN]

36. Thanks, brook..................

That's definitely progress. It wasn't that long ago that even the word "liberal" was an unmentionable in American politics.

[nashville_brook]

37. i remember. the "card-carrying member of the ACLU" bullshit.

it's big progress, actually. language is important. words can change things -- at least, that's what I believe.

[Juche]

57. Young people are split 3 ways in capitalism, socialism & undecided

People born after 1979, when polled are split between those 3 options with about 30-35% each.

[nashville_brook]

66. ack -- i just realized...you mean Madison as in down the road from my old house...

i lived in Inglewood.

[socialist_n_TN]

100. Yep that's where I meant........................

:)

[DirkGently]

14. What convinced us, I wonder

... that the workforce exists at the sufferance of the business owners, rather than the other way around? How can a company like IBM even contemplate "offering" to let it's U.S. employees stay on -- IF they'll move to India?

How about we move the executive McMansions to India, instead? If it's true that the fabulous titans of business will take their "talents" overseas if we don't let them screw us and our resources into the floorboards, why don't we just invite them out now, and see how long it takes to replace them with something better?

[nashville_brook]

16. sold to the highest bidder - democracy held hostage by kleptocrats

on-person one-vote democratic freedom only operates in the spheres in which there's voting. we happen to live our lives in the workplace where there's no voting -- there's only sucking it up.

the IBM-India program is a great example. another more common one is employer provided healthcare.

lets say, one quarter your employer decides he's paying too much for insurance, and from here on out you're going to self-insure. He'll set up a savings-account for you that you can put your money into, and if you're lucky, in about 30 years you might have enough dough to afford the heart attack you so richly deserve. what can you do about it? complain? quit? you can't "vote him out" b/c there's no mechanism for that. you're just one little gerbil in the wheel. there's nothing you can do.

[Odin2005]

20. Corporate Serfdom is what I've been calling it for a while.

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. It's not "Corporate feudalism." It's CAPITALISM

This is what capitalism IS. As soon as people get that through their heads, we can move forward. The desperate attempt to make the current state of catastrophe about anything other than capitalism is discouraging and counter-productive.

This is capitalism.

[nashville_brook]

24. actually, workers have fared way better under other forms of capitalism.

although, I understand the need to point a finger at the first cause.

but, in a pragmatic sense, i've not found it useful to go straight to the "it's capitalism and there's nothing you can do about it" end of the spectrum. there has to be a way to address where we live today -- where the rubber meets the road. I'd love to reside in a not-for-profit world, but there's no way to haul that whole load. you have to start somewhere.

[DirkGently]

28. Exactly. Point being,

whatever the nomenclature: Fundamentalist Capitalism, Feudal Capitalism, Piratical Capitalism, this is an extreme form of the breed. We're waay beyond the basic free market here, where financial firms flimflam the entire world, then hit us for the bill and continue paying island-buying bonuses to speculators whose only "talent" is finding ways to disguise risk in order to soak money from investors, and ultimately, the rest of us. This is not "buy low, sell high," simple supply and demand. This is a coordinated effort by a few to accumulate as close to ALL of the capital as possible. This isn't trying to be comfortable, wealthy, or rich.

This is measuring how successful you are by how much advantage you can take of your fellow citizens. How much you can get them to borrow for a house. How much premium you can large for health care given or taken away at a whim by a company who really can't even be bothered to talk to you intelligently on the phone. This is turning the entire economy of the world in to a funnel designed to make workers do more and buy more and want more for a smaller and smaller return on the sweat they've invested.

You can do capitalism without doing this. This is just crime.

[nashville_brook]

31. honestly, the level of criminality has actually gotten in the way of doing business.

it's to the point where there's no one left except salesmen -- there's no one doing the work. no one is producing product.

[alcibiades_mystery]

32. Not really

This is how capitalism works. If you have capitalism, it will turn into this. Different proportion, sure, but not for long.

[DirkGently]

33. It's a point of view, but I can't agree. Socialists don't become Nazis. Commies

don't have to be Stalinists. You can screw up any system if you misapply it. Or add authoritarianism. Or withdraw all restraints altogether. And no one's demonstrated a capitalism-free system that works, to my knowledge.

We do need to shift the parameters of the debate in this country, though. We can't afford to start with the premise that anything that can be labeled "socialist" is anathema, or that we need to pay homage to "letting the market work" every time we look at an economic or social policy. Capitalism's become a bad religion in America, and our priests are just as interested in sticking it to the most vulnerable members of the congregation as their Catholic counterparts.

[nashville_brook]

39. i think you meant to say 'socialist don't HAVE to become nazis' -- >

love the catholic analogy...speaking as a cultural (nonpracticing) catholic.

you know -- i've spent time trying to sell my wares on the open market. that makes me a capitalist. and, i'd LOVE to be able to have a level playing field to do again. i think this is worth working for. and, i think it's doable b/c we've done it before.

[unpossibles]

84. good point, although I'd say that any resemblance of Nazi Germany to actual Socialism

is analogous to the resemblance between the Teabaggercons and actual Libertarians. The Nazis co-opted Socialism in the same way that many other regimes did, but were not necessarily Socialist. I realize this turns into the "not a true Scotsman" argument, and also that I don't know of a single economic or government philosophy/theory which has not been corrupted by the people who will take advantage of whatever system they can.

This is what bothers me about Libertarians, if I may take a brief tangent. They think that without government oppression (lol) then they will be free of all oppression, but history shows that despots abhor a power vacuum, and that without government we will just be ruled by someone whom we won't be able to even nominally vote out. Obviously from their rants, they see themselves as the mythological leaders, the Galt of society, despite the fact that they are just serfs with slightly better positions. Even if they were the Galts of the world, they fail to see that it's going to be virtually impossible to build a financial empire without the necessary addition of the "hoi polloi" in the form of laborers and consumers.

In short they are deluded.

[DirkGently]

95. That's astute, and completely relevant

to the topic at hand. It's an argument for right-sized government. Doesn't sound as forceful as "big government" or "small government," but it's what we need. The honest Libertarians (not the corporate interests posing as Libertarians) seem to envision a society that no one's ever seen, to my knowledge, where somehow things remain egalitarian and reasonable with no safeguards in place, whereas history suggests that a lack of effective government results in someone seizing power, whether a monarch or warlord or dictator. Or corporation. Thus, we have intentional "checks and balances." Clumsy, but effective.

[unpossibles]

97. yeah, I've been trying to use the term "smart government"

to counter the "small government" arguments I hear a lot, where they assume I want "big government" simply because I disagree with them. It's a common misconception and over-simplification, honestly, but it does get frustrating.

My dad's a Libertarian so I get to practice this argument a lot, although he's intelligent and honest about it, so at least it's usually civil even when we disagree completely. And fwiw, he hated Bush, the NeoCons and actually voted Democratic in 2006 and somewhat in 2008. The problem is I've noticed he has started to fall for the propaganda and watches Glenn Beck. It's sad really.

[The Wizard]

51. Predatory Capitalism

Left unfettered and to its own devices, capitalism becomes totalitarian and consumes itself like sharks on a feeding frenzy that start eating one another.
When the working class has no money to spend the system implodes on itself. That's when the real pitchforks and torches will come into play, and the Teahadists will cower in corners of the mansions where they serve the feudal lords.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. I didn't say there's nothing you can do about it

[liberation]

73. But that is not the point the previous poster was making at all...

I understand what you are trying to say though. But lets be honest. the only times workers fare better, is when strong and organized labor is present (as well as social safety networks and strong and fair government regulations are in place). And those are far closer to socialism, than actual free unfettered capitalism.

It is a bit dishonest to try to associate the good things that socialist-like (not real socialism, because that really has never existed in the Marxist hypothetical sense) movements have brought and which were designed to help people cope with the really nasty side effects of capitalism, with capitalism itself.


It is like saying that sick people with the flu have fared better in other years because it was a "better flu." Well, not really... they fared better because there were better vaccines, or more medical attention was available. None of which are good things that can be attributed to the flu itself.


There is a weird fear in the USA to call a spade a spade and point the obvious flaws of capitalism. Until that happens, we will never be able to deal with the problems or come with a real solution. Because we keep on pigeon holing ourselves due to our inability to fully understand the problem, ergo no solution that comes out of that mindset will really help at all. We keep putting band aids and ointments all we want, but unless we realize that putting our hand on an open flame is not a good thing to do. We will keep burning ourselves.

[dotymed]

76. Indeed,

It is unregulated capitalism. Capitalism that has been allowed to develop without restraint. It is the most unfair system ever created. Of course, we have seen this before in Feudalism. Only instead of corporations, it was monarchs. Same sad conclusion. Bernie Sanders gets it. I bet he will have a fatal "accident" before 2012..

[liberation]

80. Very few people in the USA fully understand capitalism in its historical context

I blame the lack of proper education in this country, I am always appalled about how little people in this country are taught about their own history... much less about actual world history and context.

Capitalism emerged for the most part as a system which was only concerned with one thing: the replacement of the old feudal power structure, with a similar one based on capital. The aim was to replace the old monarchical/religious power players, with capitalists. And as such, it should not be a surprise that a modern corporation resembles in its structure (and even function one could say) an old feudal county/castle.

Where as in the old system, there was a pyramidal power structure which used "divine" providence as its justification: i.e. God had decided a specific group of people were "holy" enough to be the power brokers. Capitalists used a similar "invisible" entity like capital, to justify their power. In fact, if you look at a feudal power pyramid you can see an one-to-one translation function with a capitalist power pyramid: The CEO/Board are the same Kings/Regents/Popes of yore. The Knights/Nobles are now the VPs. The Freemen/Vassals are the Directors/Managers... all the way down to the common serf/peasant/slave which are now the "associates" (or whichever euphemism a corporation uses to name their labor).

What I find ironic is that few people make a connection that both systems are using "invisible" (and as such non-existent) entities as their justification. One uses an invisible dude up in the skies, and the other uses an invisible hand guiding a market. As such, both are at their most basic level a rip off.

In other words, Capitalism was never concerned with democracy, or bettering peoples lives, or any other crap its apologists come up with. Capitalism was simply concerned with transferring the power, from the old feudal structures, for themselves.

Oh, well... I guess that is part of the cycle of life: the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[DirkGently]

96. Interesting; may miss the point however

I like the "invisible" hand analogy to the idea of divine right of kings. There is a certain "faith in the invisible" supposed to ensure that only the righteous and deserving benefit by either feudalism or capitalism.

But I don't think that supports the slippery-slope notion that capitalism is an inherently unworkable system. Are you aware of any successful economic system that has discarded captalism utterly?

America has worked best, for the most people, as a regulated capitalist system, with "socialist-type" modifications like Social Security. Countries which have tried to discard capitalism completely have not improved things, and have generally re-introduced some form of free market.

What we're missing now is balance, and another thing history shows is that intelligent regulation can help with that. We went a long time without this destructive boom-and-bust cycle that works so well for a very few. It's telling that the pushback on any attempts to reinstall those protections is immense.

[moondust]

23. K/R...

Great post although I wouldn't recommend anyone holding their breath until the baggers "realize they've been had." These people have likely supported the rise of corporate power through the years in preference to government power and its civil rights laws, equal opportunity, equality, fair hiring practices, hate crime laws, regulations, etc.

[cali]

38. the tea baggers are also real villains

and the hyperbole in your op renders it largely useless.

[nashville_brook]

48. Noted.

[liberation]

69. Tick, tock... just like clock work. LOL

[cali]

79. lol. yes, you are like clockwork with the same empty post you

attach to every comment I make, sweetums.

[liberation]

82. Again, I don't think you realize your level of projection

since your original post had the same "intellectual content" as a perfect vacuum.

Good grief. For some reason, you seem to think your perennial ad hominems, trying to throw under the bus any thread involving liberals getting too uppity, somehow is the epitome of critical thought. LOL

[cali]

86. I think you need to learn what that means,

honeypie.

And you need to stop making delusional comments with exactly zero foundation, dearie.

[liberation]

88. Thank for proving my point...

I like your passive aggressive touch, like it somehow adds more gravitas. LOL

Have a nice day. You always help me cheer up with the chuckles.

[blindpig]

87. Liberals.....

always prefer 'culture wars' to addressing issues of wealth and power, that way they don't have to look in the 'Dorian Gray' mirror.

[liberation]

89. I personally do not consider those people "liberals" at all...

at least not in the classic "leftist" sense.

There seems to be plenty of moderate conservatives, who love to play "dress up" now that their former conservative brand is tarnished beyond repair. As soon as they are done driving their new "brand" into the ground, I am sure they will find a new one to adopt and neutralize.

[blindpig]

91. But liberals are not 'leftist'

They are more like a firewall that protects the ruling class from even consideration of issues of wealth and power. As long as are the excuse for a 'left' there will not be any serious conversation , much less action, about rectifying those issues.


(I suspect we misunderstand each other. I was referring to your respondent.)

[socialist_n_TN]

40. Great and informative thread. Sincere thanks.......................

to everyone.

[nashville_brook]

67. three monday threads that are great follow-ups

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x530704

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x530716

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8173920

[MrScorpio]

43. Excellent analysis, NB

The teabaggers are fighting for the their own enslavement... Just as the GOP prefers them to

[nashville_brook]

49. The irony is rich and sad...some might figure it out at some point.

[tnlefty]

54. I've heard a few of them on talk radio who have figured out

that corporations have too much power, too much control over the government, lobbyists are another big problem...and then they start spewing their free market corporatist talking points even when it stops making sense to them. I've heard a few in damned near full meltdown mode on Thom Hartmann's show in particular.

I often find myself wondering if a slight smack upside the head would help to break the disconnect in their brains, much like a gentle nudge used to help the needle get past the slight scratch in a 78, 45, or 33 rpm record.

As for most of the teabaggers, I don't think they're gonna figure it out, they're just full of hateful, nasty crap.

[unpossibles]

85. I've yet to understand how removing the fetters on corporations and allowing them to police

their own actions will somehow reduce corporate corruption. It's like if the cops shot the person being blackmailed or removing your front door to reduce break-ins.

[tnlefty]

90. Nor have I and when it ceases to make sense to some of the

true believers, who still want to believe in the magical 'free market', it is somewhat amusing to me.

"removing your front door to reduce break-ins," damn it, why didn't I think of that?:rofl:

[unpossibles]

92. feel free to use it nt

[JNelson6563]

47. Bravo! Most excellent post!

I couldn't agree more! I see so many similarities to feudalism on a daily basis it's frightening. Your post summed it quite succinctly.

Julie

[nashville_brook]

60. thank you -- i wonder how many people have the sense that it can be any other way?

[Skittles]

50. I HEAR YOU

those first three paragraphs could have been written by me, word for word

[nashville_brook]

65. seriously, i see mini-meltdowns at work frequently.

[zenprole]

52. The Champ

This is the best post I've yet seen on DU. Let's hope pitchforks and torches haven't gone completely out of style.

re: teabagger funding: Yasha Levine has a great expose on exiledonline.com Those "rallies" cost money and the Great Clueless are as tapped out as anyone.

[nashville_brook]

53. i will check that out...thank you!

[Juche]

55. The ending was spot on

Back in 2007 and 2008 when democrats held town halls that were packed with angry people pissed about the lack of accountability for the Bush administration, no news organizations reported it. but the tea party town hall protests were front page news every day.

The million strong anti war demonstrations, or 10s and 100s of thousands who gathered in one place to watch an Obama speech barely made the news. A tea party demonstration with 5000 attendees is all over the news.

You are right. As long as the protesters are fighting for the wealthy and powerful, they will get front page treatment in the corporate media. The second they fight against the wealthy and powerful, they will disappear from the TV and newspapers.

[nashville_brook]

58. already we are seeing this play out w/the Ron Paul support at the TPs.

there's also a schism that Rachel has been following regarding the rank-and-file vs the moneybags.

[truedelphi]

99. I wish Ihad seen thsi earlier to give it the K & R

Like it is being said, your ending was spot on.

What is the schism between the rank and file and the money bags? I am tired and it's late, so if you spell it out for me, i won't be offended.

[ShortnFiery]

70. Well Done.

:thumbsup:

[RickyM]

71. Thanks for that

Good post

[blindpig]

72. No, it's just Capitalism

No other descriptor is required. All of this 'corporate' or 'disaster' or whatever capitalism is denial. Capitalism does whatever it can to maximize profit, that's all it is. It will always come to this, if it doesn't then it ain't capitalism.

[liberation]

75. Exactly!

I find it ironic in a way: when the bubble is expanding is capitalism... when the bubble collapses it's not "real" capitalism. It is XXXX Capitalism (XXXX being whichever nonsensical hyperbolic characterizer is en vogue at that specific point in time).

It reeks of doublethink, and Orwell wrote a nice book warning us about it.

It is a very flawed system, based on what can only be described as a "scam." We can hand wave around it all we want. But until we decide to call a spade a spade we will never solve this problem. We will keep on parching a system which is utterly flawed. In a sense capitalism and its cycles are the very definition of insanity: we keep on doing the same things over and over and over and over again, and we expect a different outcome every single damned time. And again, another very bright fellow warned us about that: Einstein.

[blindpig]

78. Yep, but who is crazy here?

It ain't the capitalist class, they live like gods at the expense of the rest of us. But for a person not of that class to favor and support this social arrangement, that is madness.

[liberation]

81. That is absolutely correct. it is either madness or stupidity...

neither of which are particularly flattering. Esp. when you consider that if there is ever a revolution in this country, it will involve some people from the middle and lower classes raising up and being willing to give up their lives to defend the rights and interests of the rich.

Imagine, if there is alien contact in the near future, and we have to explain that one to them. What an utter embarrassment as a species we must be for the cosmos.

;-)

[truedelphi]

101. Bu t none of the experts can do that - none can call a spade a

Spade.

I mean, you would think by now that someone like Robert Reich might be saying, "Capitalism ahgs failed. but he dances around that issue like some kind of economic Bryshinikov.

[lonestarnot]

74. The fuckwads will never figure it out.

[amborin]

102. K&R