***The McVeigh Tapes with Rachel Maddow - official thread***

[malaise]

Just starting

corrected

[onehandle]

1. The gunbagger idol. Revealed. nt

[onehandle]

29. nt

[babylonsister]

2. Can't do it. Seems way too depressing to me. But I'll check out this

thread.

[malaise]

4. The first part is about the horrific explosion

and blaming the Muslims. Brokaw was pushing that line big time.

They found the axle of the truck and that led to McVeigh.


Winter of 1999 he was already sentenced and imprisoned - the Lou Michel interviews for the authorized biography and hence the tapes.
The focus is on what he said on those tapes

add

[Johonny]

28. so far very depressing

broken home, bullied in school, military, war, post traumatic stress syndrome, finds "friends" in the hate society at the fringe of society that got a loud voice in the 90s and sadly again today. It's his own words so everything "justifies" his actions in his eyes. In your eyes it's just depressing people make money selling hate to these type of people.

[WeDidIt]

3. This is what the teabaggers want

more McVeighs

[AnArmyVeteran]

79. Sean Hannity, "There's a lot of McVeigh wannabes out there" to tea bagger audience of radicals...

Sean Hannity would have been fired if he worked anywhere else but Fox for making an insane comment like that. It was a rare moment of honesty for the habitual liar Hannity. He knew he was talking to people just like McVeigh and that's why he said they were Tim McVeigh wannabes. Sickening. Hannity and every other conservative extremist is a coward.

[AnArmyVeteran]

80. Tea Baggers are lusting for violence...

[bdamomma]

115. exactly we have our own militias in the US scary very scary indeed

[MadMaddie]

5. This still unnerves me!

Those victims never had a chance.....

[blaze]

6. 15 minutes in

and I don't think I can watch the rest of it.

I might check back for updates and opinions...

but watching it just feels like I'm giving him some credit or value.....

Fuck McVeigh

[Lint Head]

7. Cowards like McVeigh pick easy targets.

[malaise]

14. He claimed to be looking for the location with the

most federal agencies. Also said he was trying to minimize collateral damage.
He's a real scumbag.

[uppityperson]

16. Must've missed that daycare. I hope he is suffering

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. No, women and chidren died at Waco

in his mind women and children are fair targets.

He knew what he was doing... and that was a hell of a shaped charged.

But if you don't believe in hell, he didn't... and you believe your enemy has set the rules of engagement and women and children are fair game... well there you have it...

Sick yes... why this is an incredible opportunity for people to see this. This is what is going on with these crazies.

[uppityperson]

58. That is true, they weren't the "collateral damage" he was avoiding.

[riderinthestorm]

85. Can you clarify your statement, "If you don't believe in hell, he didn't"?

What are you trying to imply? That people who commit these crimes could only be atheists since they "don't believe in hell?"

Trying to ascertain your meaning.

[roguevalley]

107. I think she meant, and I could be wrong, but I took it to me that he

didn't believe in hell as a personal thought. I don't think it had anything to do with whether he was a believer or not. I just don't think that part of it scared him.

[JoeyT]

41. I haven't watched the video yet

but from some of the stuff in the aftermath, he regretted the daycare being there. Not because he killed kids, but because it would damage his message.

[PSzymeczek]

77. He's dead.

Suicide by capital punishment.

[uppityperson]

82. I know. I hope he believed in something after death.

[bdamomma]

116. he was very sick indeed, he cried for David Koresch but

said "get over it" to the survivors of Oklahoma.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Ah yes, we get to look at what makes people like him

REAL

[malaise]

10. I worry about some of the details

but I guess most of this stuff is available on the internet.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. I knew the day it happened that it wasn't a furiegner

but I was working on a novel at the time dealing with the Militias...

One reason that book came to a screeching halt.

And yes details (on bomb making) are on the web.

When I have even distantly touched the subject in fiction, I go out of my way to not reveal some ahem details.

[WolverineDG]

44. I knew that too

and even got into an argument with some right-winger in my law school class who wanted the government to immediately deport all Muslims. I told her it was the Posse Comitatus, or some other anti-government group like that. She told me I was crazy, that she had never heard of such groups, & it had to be Muslims. Then another classmate said he'd heard of the Posse, & she shut up. Bitch never apologized when they arrested McVeigh.

dg

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Of course not, but you and I were in the minority

[WolverineDG]

61. Well, I'd been listening to the Art Bell show at night

& he'd had a lot of anti-government militia types on his show, plus it made no sense to me for some "foreign" group to strike in Oklahoma, because they wouldn't be able to make a quick getaway.

dg

[uppityperson]

59. She hadn't heard of the posse c? Incredible that those who think that way are so ignorant

I mean, it explains some of their fears, but it seems rw-ers had heard of them. I guess listening to jingoistic fearful bs is easier than actually finding out what these groups are like.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Most americans do not know, to this day, who the possee are

that is the sad reality.

[Sebastian Doyle]

76. I knew that too, instantly.

In the early 90's before the "internet as we now know it" really existed, I used to talk to these extremist right wing wackjobs on a BBS network called "SurvNet" (Surv being short for Survivalist) I made no secret of my Liberal worldview, but managed to get a moderator gig in their religion forum, and frequented many other discussion areas as well.

I never saw the name "Tim McVeigh" on that board, or either of the Nichols brothers, though Mike Fortier might have been among them. And somewhere in my file drawer is a printout from one of those discussions in early 1995, which contains the following proclamation:

"A WARNING SHOT WILL BE FIRED ON APRIL 19TH"

:scared:

Let's just say I didn't spend much time on SurvNet after that. Thankfully by then I had a better computer and discovered Mosaic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. MOSAIC saved your life

you got a more direct line to this than I did.

Mine were books and I am not kidding special permission from oh AOL to visit certain RW sites... since they did have a permanent adult filter on them at the time.

They have just gotten better coded, same hate message.

[WolverineDG]

106. John Doe #2? nt

[uppityperson]

9. dupe

[Dappleganger]

11. All six of us are watching. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I suspct more than six

[Dappleganger]

21. Some are out cold...

all I know is that their dinner is cold.

:P

[malaise]

23. Talking about his upbringing

and the effect of the divorce.

[uppityperson]

12. thank you so we don't have to. You forgot one thing though.

The asterisks in the subject line. "All Official subject posts must contain at least one preceding and one following asterick." du rules book

[malaise]

18. LOL

Corrected

He says people have killed for the greater good. His friend Fortier bailed out on him and Nichols was afraid of him.
Says he was the principle player and he manipulated Nichols

[uppityperson]

19. That is better. Thanks for blogging this.

[SDuderstadt]

17. Does anyone know if this will be aired online?

I don't own a TV.

[malaise]

20. I'm sure there's a DUer who can give you a link

but if not I'm sure it will be on Rachel's page in a few hours.

McVeigh is an egotistical maniac.

[SDuderstadt]

22. Thanks...

I appreciate it.

[malaise]

24. Cool

His mother and sisters head to Florida - he stays with the father.
Joins the army and finds his family - model student of guns and explosives. Did not socialize - met Nichols and Fortier. Nichols was pro-2nd amendment and government taking guns from people. Sent to Persian Gulf at the point when he's maturing in terms of anti-government views.

[GoCubsGo]

36. TVPC.com.

Click on "Live TV". Scroll down to MSNBC.

[LeftyMom]

37. You can watch MSNBC anytime here

http://www.tvpc.com/Channel.php?ChannelID=2453

[SDuderstadt]

45. Thanks...n/t

[HipChick]

25. I find Rachel's narrator voice very soothing...

I'm listening more than actually watching....

[malaise]

26. Same here

He kills two Iraqis with one shot and is very proud but then has mixed feelings because he now felt he was killing innocent people. He then demonizes the government and the military - gets out of the military and is now bored - finds life dull.

That explains everything - he begins to plan his own war.
The government is now evil and he shows up at his grandfather's house in winter with sweat pants and nothing else screaming for grandpa - has a nervous breakdown - PTSD has kicked in and he hits the road.

[onehandle]

27. Me too.

She could produce calming audio recordings for meditation.

[malaise]

35. He's now in love with a bumper sticker

When guns are outlawed
I'll become an outlaw.

Nothing new really - becomes obsessed with Waco Texas, Koresh and the Branch Davidians. Showing photo of him taken by photographer at Waco. Then drives to Nichols and watch the end of the siege crying.
What has America become...he felt absolute rage...an act of war,

It really was the final moment for McVeigh.

Rachel should point out the mental problems.

Nichols wanted out.

[onehandle]

30. 'he finds like-minded thinkers on the gun show circuit.' nt

[bullwinkle428]

31. Paging the Gungeon...to the white courtesy phone!

:evilgrin:

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Oh com'on you think they will even aproach it?

:evilgrin:

[madamesilverspurs]

32. Fascinating, but

seems to be many more commercial breaks than normal for her hour. Bit rough on continuity for that.

-

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Two hour show

that is why.

Perhaps I will need to get this without the adds

[malaise]

39. McVeigh loads the truck by himself

Nichols eventually turns up and they head off to build the bomb on the lake.
Four hours of building and then they separate for the last time.
Slept besides his bomb - like a baby.
TO be kind - McVeigh was batshit crazy.

[WeDidIt]

43. Man, could you imagine being that guy or kid who went fishing?

And to find out that was McVeigh in that Ryder truck fifteen years later?

[malaise]

50. I'm betting he found out during the trial

or when they discovered that there was a rented moving truck

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. No, not batshit crazy, in the zone

and you got to wonder how many more are out there? He also built a hell of a shaped charge...

Now you may say he had a personality disorder... but crazy, no... he knew exactly what he was doing. You did see the copy of the Turner Diaries in the early part. That was his guide. He KNEW that he threw the first punch, to be followed by others who'd strike... that fantasy is still popular. The idiot screaming today WOLVERINES at the demo is but a model of what is going on in that under belly that Palin plays to. THIS is the underbelly she is playing to.

[WeDidIt]

56. No, the dude was a psychopath

Pure and simple.

He was batshit crazy.

[malaise]

57. I always differentiate between

being mentally ill and being stupid or ignorant. Of course he knew what he was doing - his madness was his anti-government obsession.

[uppityperson]

52. Wingnuts worship a mentally ill man.

[malaise]

53. Damn he's arrogant as well

:puke:

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Having met some real scum as patients

I am not surprised.

I got the feeling I have met the same KIND of personality in the back of my rig.

[AzNick]

101. Why I see him as a perfect soldier but not a true soldier

I believe McVeigh is the perfect soldier because he is easy to indoctrinate and will carry his mission to the very end.

Not the perfect solider like in an action movie: he is not "buff", he is not tall, not the handsomest man either, but he is in shape, has the right training and he has endurance and determination.

He talks about the military all the time. "What you learn in the military..." "What I saw in the military..." "From my military experience".

I believe that when he left the military he was on his own and felt a void and he filled that void by joining a militia. Someone in that militia saw potential in McVeigh, saw that he was still a young immature man who, unlike Nichols, lacked the wisdom necessary to make him even doubt his action.

Of course he was completely misguided and whoever "made" him is the real culprit.

But McVeigh the soldier is also a persona and his constant mention of the military and use of military language ("collateral damage" about children killed in the attack) showed that he was constantly propping this persona as a shield.

Behind that shield, I am sure McVeigh was just a timid guy, a geek, a poor chump who probably got bullied. I've not read any psychological profile, I am very curious to read one, if there is any.

Whatever one can tell to defend him (Waco was a major blunder, in my mind), one thing remains: a true soldier swears to protect his homeland and is ready to sacrifice his own life to defend and protect the innocent. McVeigh attacked his own country and betrayed his countrymen.

[FirstLight]

38. can only catch bits & peices so far...

wonder what will be on the 'late night' circuit here on the west coast. usually I catch Keith at 10 and Rachel at 11

I don't think I can watch the whole thing anyway, I am kind of opposed to the whole thing on a matter of principal.
No matter who is narrating, the teabaggers will just edit out the comments and keep replaying the tapes over & over for themselves...honoring him.:scared: :puke:

makes me :mad:

[malaise]

42. KO's repeat will be at 11.00pm

RE your comments - depends on how Rachel deals with his murderous act. That should be coming up shortly.

[cynatnite]

47. The tapes would have gone public no matter what...

and some will honor him for his crime even if the tapes were burned...just like some still honor Hitler and Bush.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. This is history

and we have to stop being afraid of it.

[malaise]

51. The coward ran away

and claimed that he was jogging.

[malaise]

71. This is the part I want to see

The victims - 40 broken bones - fuck you murderous scumbag McVeigh.
Celebrate your hero Teabaggers and RW loonies. This is what he did.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Yes Potok you are right, this is a man with no concept of emotions

there is a mental disease process here, but there is more. And we have to wonder, how many like him are out there who CHIEFLY have the training to be able to do this?

Oh and the Turner Diaries are critical boys and girls. She should go further into them, but apart of the oblique reference I doubt they will and I hope I am wrong on that.

[MrScorpio]

73. Here's a list of sociopathic traits, I've put McVeigh's in bold type

http://www.sociopathicstyle.com/traits/classic.htm

Dr. Hare's Checklist (Sociopathic Traits)

1. GLIB and SUPERFICIAL CHARM -- the tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Sociopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A sociopath never gets tongue-tied. They have freed themselves from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example.

2. GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH -- a grossly inflated view of one's abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Sociopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.

3. NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM -- an excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Sociopaths often have low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine.

4. PATHOLOGICAL LYING -- can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest.

5. CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS- the use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one's victims.

6. LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT -- a lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, coldhearted, and un empathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one's victims.

7. SHALLOW AFFECT -- emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.

8. CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY -- a lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.

9. PARASITIC LIFESTYLE -- an intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities.

10. POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS -- expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.

11. PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR -- a variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.

12. EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS -- a variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use, and running away from home.

13. LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS -- an inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.

14. IMPULSIVITY -- the occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless.

15. IRRESPONSIBILITY -- repeated failure to fulfill or honor obligations and commitments; such as not paying bills, defaulting on loans, performing sloppy work, being absent or late to work, failing to honor contractual agreements.

16. FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS -- a failure to accept responsibility for one's actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial.

17. MANY SHORT-TERM MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS -- a lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including marital.

18. JUVENILE DELINQUENCY -- behavior problems between the ages of 13-18; mostly behaviors that are crimes or clearly involve aspects of antagonism, exploitation, aggression, manipulation, or a callous, ruthless tough-mindedness.

19. REVOCATION OF CONDITION RELEASE -- a revocation of probation or other conditional release due to technical violations, such as carelessness, low deliberation, or failing to appear.

20. CRIMINAL VERSATILITY -- a diversity of types of criminal offenses, regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them; taking great pride at getting away with crimes.

[malaise]

86. He's full of it alright

Content and peace - that's what the coward claimed he'd feel on the gurney.
I'm anti-capital punishment but people like him test my resolve.

[tallahasseedem]

60. Very interesting...

However, there are WAY too many commercials!

[Born_A_Truman]

62. Amazing he was arrest for traffic violations...

and not just ticketed and sent on his way.

[malaise]

66. That's because he had an unlicensed

weapon. He really wanted to be caught - what an arrogant sociopath

[defendandprotect]

109. He had a license plate falling off his car . . . and a gun and no permit ...

[AnArmyVeteran]

63. Tea Baggers would love to build a statue of McVeigh as one of their gods of violence...

Anyone wanna take a guess how many tea baggers are capable of a terrorist act? 50? 100? 1000? 10,000? All of them?

[WeDidIt]

69. Yep, McVeigh is the hero of the teabaggers. n/t

[onehandle]

65. He keeps his head up defiantly as he leaves the Starbucks...

...I mean the courthouse.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Realize folks, this is a critical pioece of history

this is what to a point we face today. There is a lone wolf out there, willing to do this.

[cynatnite]

70. Exactly. n/t

[malaise]

72. Look at these victims

:cry: :cry:

[onehandle]

74. Yeah. That's really getting to me.

Those who believe that victims of violence are just numbers should be forced to watch this.

[Sheltiemama]

110. The brother of a woman I worked with died there.

His son was just 5 at the time. Today, I realized that little boy is now 20.

[DeschutesRiver]

83. There will always be lone wolfs out there, and periodically, they will strike. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. Oh absolutely

[cynatnite]

68. He seems very ego-centric...

That his mistakes were intentional so that he would be caught. I don't buy it.

If he's stupid enough to light the fuse inside the cab and not realize that it would smoke, why would I think he'd be any more intelligent than that?

[malaise]

75. What an angry bitter arrogant

jackass

[Lindsey]

105. I missed the first 30 minutes but watched the rest. I thought it

was excellent. Rachel is an awesome narrator. As far as the commercials go, I noticed that even though there were a lot of them, they seemed to go by fast and then right back to the Documentary.

[Johonny]

81. sounds just like Manson.

He's the victim, he's more powerful than you think, blah, blah, blah... he is sadly very typical of this type of person. A little more info on the other two guys would have been interesting in contrast.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. Tim separated his abilty to have emphathy

from those who were victims... (Waco) and those he attacked, (OKC)

Damn I have seen that compartmentalization before...

And yes, he hated the agents of the government, the way he saw the OKC Murrah building. If this does not send chills down your back...

[Johonny]

103. He probably couldn't

I agree with the one victim in the show, he probably talked a good game but inside couldn't do this. The tapes are him justifying himself to the world. But they are also the same lies he tells himself to justify himself to himself. Manson does the same thing in his interviews. So didn't the guy that flew the plan in the IRS building. Bin Laden has tape after tape of the same BS. He doesn't sound very convincing either. I don't think he sounded that unusual to anyone that profiles these type of killers. Egomaniac, a lot of twisted logic that is suppose to fit together to make you feel empathy towards them, and that are suppose to justify their actions. They really don't add up to anything. He talks a lot about his message, but his whole message was really look at me world, because it's all about them. So ah in the end some message Tim.

[WeDidIt]

84. Tim McVeigh is the best argument for life with no parole

Had McVeigh been forced to spend the rest of a VERY LONG life locked in a cell, it would have tortured him for decades.

[malaise]

87. I agree with you 100%

Death made it too easy for this scumbag

[Johonny]

91. It certainly has sucked for the Manson gang

[onehandle]

96. Yep. He might have been here where Nichols resides:

Most cells' furniture is made almost entirely out of poured concrete, including the desk, stool, and bed. Each chamber contains a toilet that shuts off if plugged, a shower that runs on a timer to prevent flooding, and a sink missing a potentially dangerous trap. Rooms may also be fitted with polished steel mirrors bolted to the wall, an electric light, a radio, and a television that shows recreational, educational and religious programming. These are considered privileges that may be taken away as punishment, so they are placed and remotely controlled such that the inmate does not actually come into contact with them. The 4 in (10 cm) by 4 ft (1.2 m) windows are designed to prevent the prisoner from knowing his specific location within the complex because he can see only the sky and roof through them. Also inmates exercise in what's been described as an "empty swimming pool," so they do not know their location for possible escape. Telecommunication with the outside world is forbidden, and food is hand-delivered by correctional officers. The prison as a whole contains a multitude of motion detectors and cameras, 1,400 remote-controlled steel doors, and 12 ft (3.66 m) high razor wire fences. Laser beams, pressure pads, and attack dogs guard the area between the prison walls and razor wire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_ADMAX_USP

[HughMoran]

89. Well, that was grim

Especially the end.

[malaise]

92. The tapes only made me dislike that scumbag

even more.

[cynatnite]

90. His ashes were spread at an undisclosed location...

Good.

[malaise]

95. Very good

I'm off to watch Jon Stewart - I need a laugh.

[madokie]

93. Stunning is all I can say

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Well there you have it folks

and that is where the extreme right wing is today. Ain't that a happy thought?

Thankfully MOST are all talk ... but how many of those are willing to go... ahem... operational?

[malaise]

97. They should have showed his dead body on that slab

and reminded the next 'hero' that the same fate awaits.
McVeigh is no hero.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. In the US? We are too wussie bout things like that!

And I could write a treatise on that,

I mean IT'S A DEAD BODY... RUN.... PROTECT WOMEN AND CHILDREN! OH THE HORROR!!!!

And sadly I am not kidding.

[malaise]

112. THey had no problem showing Sadam's body

or his sons.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. Them are brown people

again I am not kidding.

Here is the rub... and you can see it in my local coverage. We have had several times when we had a dead body in the street. Local ENGLISH stations do not show it, or worst, when they go there, you see a peek of a yellow tarp.

When the SPANISH station does the same story... you at times see the full body covered by yellow tarp. When they beat the cops, you see the actual body.

It is very much cultural. You do not show a white body of an Murican here... I mean you simply do not. We have removed death from our lives... and yes there are treatises on this.

[cynatnite]

99. He saw himself as a martyr. n/t

[NotThisTime]

100. I didn't remember this Michael Fornier (sp?)

As for everything else, it was surprising to hear him actually talk about it, but nothing surprised me that he said.... no, not true, he wanted suicide by cop, I wonder if he came up with that afterwards....It never did make further mention of his grandfather or other family... And yes, the bullied becomes the bully... and we wonder why.

[Sheltiemama]

111. I read "American Terrorist."

The author was on this show. Fournier is mentioned in there. If you want to read more about it, I recommend it.

[onehandle]

102. My conclusion is that he is not the screaming teabagger waving a misspelled sign...

He's the gunbagger standing quietly in the background openly carrying a sidearm.

You can't pigeonhole him as one of the uninformed racists in silly outfits.

He's not dumb. He's planning.

[defendandprotect]

108. Didn't watch it all, but wasted some time with it --

Don't know what role Rachel had in this -- pretty pasturized/homogenized outing --

There were bombs going off in the Murrah building for a long time after the initial

explosion.

If I recall correctly, some employees in the building said that they had seen people

who could have been wiring the building in weeks before the event.

And FBI employees AWOL . . . ?

Also, was just reading elsewhere that some official in Utah had been requesting the

tapes via FOIA of three cameras trained on the building --

Evidently, they did finally release them and they end 3 minutes before the event -- all 3 of them!

FBI said that all three cameras had run out of film at the same time!

[bridgit]

114. I've been sick of McVeigh for years an have no pity for his dead, white bread w/mayo eyes

I will not be giving this vile, whiny voiced very low IQ miscreant any more time

[Colonel Bat Guano]

117. Can still get it on iTunes

Someone asked about online viewing. Both Countdown and Maddow are available for free on iTunes for about a day. I don't think they update the feed until after the west coast airing. If you want to download the show via iTunes, it's probably still available (I downloaded it this morning).

[bridgit]

120. And that's another thing - this freaking iEverything out there shit has to shrieking stop!

I have some dumb-ass app shit on my dsktp that I can't get rid of unless I *reload* it and *then* attempt to delete it so if this black spendy-ass turtle neck wearing shirt dude Jobs thinks he *is* the iEverything&Anything dude then why doesn't he make it so people can delete his idiot app-crap with far less hassle? Why is that?

Riddle me that Batman ~ :kick:

[newtothegame]

118. It's classic that people on here assume McVeigh was a teabagger. Do your homework.

Timothy McVeigh, 1998:

The administration has said that Iraq has no right to stockpile chemical or biological weapons (“weapons of mass destruction”) – mainly because they have used them in the past.

Well, if that’s the standard by which these matters are decided, then the U.S. is the nation that set the precedent. The U.S. has stockpiled these same weapons (and more) for over 40 years. The U.S. claims that this was done for deterrent purposes during the “Cold War” with the Soviet Union. Why, then is it invalid for Iraq to claim the same reason (deterrence) — with respect to Iraq’s (real) war with and the continued threat of, its neighbor Iran?

If Saddam is such a demon and people are calling for war crimes charges and trials against him and his nation, why do we not hear the same cry for blood directed at those responsible for even greater amounts of “mass destruction” — like those responsible and involved in dropping bombs on the cities mentioned above.

The truth is, the U.S. has set the standard when it comes to the stockpiling and use of weapons of mass destruction.

Actually sounds like most of DU to me.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

119. Wow, one line out of all of his manifestos really proves your point

:eyes: