What North America is coming to

[KonaKane]

I see this nation facing a serious risk of fracturing into several smaller ones in the coming century. Would that really be a bad thing? Who knows. I used to believe in E Pluribus Unum above all but lately, I'm not so sure. If the big break up did occurr, here's what I think it might look like.



The borders were drawn based on political/social attitudes and localized cultures.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

1. Well, your section of North America anyway.

:hi:

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

2. Your giving the UP to Canada?

The new residents of Lochland might want to keep it! :rofl:

[KonaKane]

4. Good point. Maybe we should give the Alaskans a month to relocate

before annexation. I don't think they would much cotton to all that fancey shmancey Canadian health care.

[Ikonoklast]

9. Da Yoopers will be livin' in an independent Yooperland.

Ya.

[A HERETIC I AM]

34. The UP is drawn in the map. Check again. n/t

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

63. You are correct !

My mistake! :)

[Arugula Latte]

3. I'd call "Wheatland" something else ...

That seems to be the most conservative strip in the country. Maybe "Dumbfuckistan." Apologies to any DUers residing there -- you are not Dumbfuckistani.

[Odin2005]

44. And us Fargoans aren't part of it, dammit!

The Red River Valley is one of the most liberal rural areas in the country! We don't belong with the nuts in Kansas and Texas!

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Hawai'i will become soembody else's strategic base in the pacific

after that, you are not that off. We may quibble on borders or successor states... but the cultures are way too diverse

[Warpy]

6. NM will rejoin Mexico

before it ever joins the Mormons.

[KonaKane]

7. LOL.

How could I have missed that.

[WeDidIt]

8. It'll never happen

Fantasy bullshit.

[Electric Monk]

11. making Barack Obama non-American retroactively as well. nt

[KonaKane]

16. He'll be long gone by that time.

[Ozymanithrax]

10. This is what a Rusian professor predicted.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. I don't like that

but mostly who influences who... time to think New England...

:-)

[Ozymanithrax]

22. It is an ibterestubg exercuse thinking about what will happen if the T'bagger revolution...

happens.

It won't be fun to live through, should it happen.

[chrisa]

30. Much cheetos will be spilled.

The battlefield will be filled with cheetos dust, and crusted, old Mountain Dew. What a dramatic sight it will be. :)

[KonaKane]

14. Interesting. But, Hawaii is already a part of Japan and China.

Anyone who sees the huge section of Japanese and Chinese which make up the Hawaiian populace can deduce that. It's interesting that he used existing state borders to make his divisions. I think that state borders would mostly dissolve in such a case.

[Odin2005]

48. The Dakotas are an example, the eastern parts are fairly liberal while the western parts...

...are right-wing libertarian wacko central.

[RKP5637]

24. Yeah, I recall when he was saying this. I think, pretty sure, that Putin once

said something about he thought the US might eventually divide, not necessarily like this, but that we had some real divisions, and that was a few years back he said that. This RW nonsense... what a destructive influence. Still reminds me of the Twilight episode "The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monsters_Are_Due_on_Maple_Street

[RC]

36. I'm thinking Canada is not wanting any part of us, U.S.

We are not as well liked up there as some people think.

[dixiegrrrrl]

42. Latinos in Cal and Ariz. have other plans.

[Odin2005]

47. That professor is a moron who has NO understanding of American regional cultures.

[MUAD_DIB]

12. Where is methmouthland?

[Ozymanithrax]

15. And there was Joel Garreu"s "The Nine Nations of North America"

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Fascinating book by the way

[Joe the Liberal]

18. Would splitting up really be such a bad thing? n/t

[Ozymanithrax]

23. Well there is the enormous economic disrupting, think great Depression on steroids..

and

There is he extreme likelihood that a breakup would be followed by political and ideological cleansing. Liberals in the South will be an endangered species and quite possible invited to leave.

Then, there is the high likelihood of violence with intifada style conflict for years.

Other than that, piece of cake.

[KonaKane]

25. On top of that, check out the split of the Chesapeake Bay

between the Southerners and the New Englanders. As important a port as that is, it would make for some interesting treaties....and skirmishes.

[RKP5637]

26. And we would have the endless border wars with whatever weapons sent over the borders. n/t

[Ozymanithrax]

38. Consider that all of these states will be Nuclear nations with not liking for each other...

A breakup would be a disaster.

[RKP5637]

40. Ugh, I hadn't even thought of that. Hopefully this nation will chill out and

get its act together. All of this nonsense going on is so far from what I had envisioned in my mind post-Bush.

[Strelnikov_]

19. Cairo, IL

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=37.001884,-89.167314&spn=0,0.027466&z=15&lci=com.panoramio.all&layer=c&cbll=37.001884,-89.167314&cbp=12,0,,0,5&photoid=po-5284445

[RKP5637]

27. Chilling. ...had never seen from Google Maps. n/t

[Strelnikov_]

32. Thats what I thought

I was hitting Google streetview last night to look at the river bridges, then started crusing around town.

Stunning. And a warning.

"the city that died from racism"

http://users.stlcc.edu/jangert/cairo/cairo.html

[RKP5637]

35. Imagine if the media focused on things like this, to learn from history and

what happens and can again. Thanks, this was extremely interesting to read.

[RC]

37. Learn from history? What a novel concept for us US of A'ns

We seem to have a real problem with that.

[RKP5637]

39. It's really sad. It seems anymore we are backsliding so much, and then

we also have those so damn proud to be ignorant. What a horrible recipe for the 21st century.

[KonaKane]

50. At some point, you're stuck with a conundrum....

Do you go down with the ship trying to make dumb people smarter, or jump and save yourself? E Pluribus Unum may very well have played itself out. It was a noble effort.

[RKP5637]

51. It becomes so frustrating, yes, a conundrum. It seems each day the divide grows deeper. If only

they made some semblance of sense, but listening to them all one hears is a barrage of nonsensical rhetoric stoked by RW media and politicians, and many for their personal profit... Palin, Beck, Limbaugh and the like, all getting wealthy by exploiting and helping drive the divide in this country.

[KonaKane]

57. The hate talkers are only cutting their own throats - that's the irony

They may make some bucks in the short run, but they are certainly not angling for job security if they are agitating a dissolution of the nation. Seems supremely stupid to me.

[lib2DaBone]

66. Sadly.. this is the picture in cities from coast to coast.....

How can the politicians (Dems and Repubs) be so blind to this?

Watching on CSPAN yesterday, Senate Hearing on Immigration Reform and Drug Wars..... fat white-haired old men blustering about law and order.. with out a CLUE what is actually going on?

Yet after looking at this scene...then learning that CONgress just OKed $12 Billion to re-train the Afghan Police force... I can only scratch my head as say..."WTF?"

This country has gone stark-raving mad... the lights are on but no one is at home?

[Selatius]

20. You haven't read the Nine Nations of North America, have you? Check out this map:

Joel Garreau wrote the book in 1981 detailing the various cultural regions and economic regions of North America. If the US is to fracture along socio-cultural lines, then the map might be indicative of future trends.

[Hekate]

21. Concept and map cribbed from several future-fic books, but thought provoking for the far, far future

... nonetheless. Peace to you and the Russians, but I don't think the American Empire is actually going to fall to pieces quite that way in the next hundred years.

I do like Neil Gaiman's take on our multiple cultures though: In "American Gods" he points out that while the 7 regions you map out (9 regions if you count Alaska and Hawaii) use the same coinage, roads, and (mostly) language, culturally they really are different countries. I decided that Gaiman is right about that, and it helps me wrap my mind around some of the crap that is happening now.

Hekate

[marmar]

28. Just let us in Michigan join Canada....

No border issues, similar culture to our neighbors in Ontario, limited currency issues (There's NOBODY in SE Michigan without Canadian money laying around somewhere) and we've even got a bit of the Canadian accent, eh? (And we actually UNDERSTAND hockey.....and know that a loonie isn't just a crazy person).

[KonaKane]

29. I think a fair amount of territory would dissolve into Canada and Mexico.

I used to live in the border area with Mexico when I was in NM (Las Cruces) and it definitely was more Mexico than "USA".

[Xithras]

31. More likely, a new third country.

It's true that much of the southwest border area is heavily Mexicanized, it's also true that many of them came here to escape the corruption and serious economic problems that plague Mexico. I really doubt that a large portion of them would be eager to rejoin Mexico. It's more probable that they would try to build a new, third nation.

[glinda]

62. Lower half part to Mexico and the upper part to Canada. Perfect.

[a la izquierda]

33. The idea of NJ being part of New England makes...

me want to barf. j/k
But seriously, it's bad enough I have to share the same country with Sawx fans.

[happyslug]

41. Discussed before

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x411848#411976

The key to North America, the Mississippi River System:


http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/water-resources/map-390.html

The Second Key, the Great Lakes and St Lawrence System:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/water-resources/map-400.html

The third key the Drainage System to Mobile Bay (interconnects with the Mississippi River System):

http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/water-resources/map-379.html

The above three watersheds dominate the North American Continent, the natural tendency is for everyone in the above three water drainage system to be in one Country.

The two water systems the dominates the American Southwest (and Northern Mexico):
The Rio Grande:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/water-resources/map-397.html

And the Colorado:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/water-resources/map-382.html

The Water system that dominate the Northwest, The Columbia River:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/water-resources/map-383.html

The water system that dominates Mexico,Rio Grande de Santiago Watershed:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/water-resources/map-398.html

Balsas Watershed:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/water-resources/map-380.html

Water sheds of Western Canada: The McKenzie (Easy access to the Nelson Watershed and then the Mississippi and Great lakes Water systems:


And the Nelson Watershed, next to the Mississippi and Great lakes Water systems:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/water-resources/map-274.html

The Fraser Watershed and most of British Columbia:


Map of the primary Watersheds of the World:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/water-resources/map-274.html

Look at the former Soviet Union, except for Siberia (Which like central North America is a series of flat interconnected watersheds) the Soviet Union broke up along its watersheds. If the US does the same, it will break up along its watersheds. In the Soviet Union that was easy for its member states were already on their watersheds. In the US we are NOT along our watersheds so it will be messier.

List of Major Water sheds of the World:
http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/water-resources/maps.html

[KonaKane]

45. He had his map, I have mine.

That's like saying we shouldn't start any more race equality topics because it's been discussed before.

[happyslug]

56. Just pointing out that geography is the key to borders and Rivers united people

That is a central theme when looking at Countries, Geography more then anything else sets up the borders. Geography sets up trade and trade unite people. Once you accept the fact that the United States between the Appalachian and Rocky Mountains had a overwhelming need to be one Country, the push to unite will be strong (As will be the pull to stay united AND to re-unite if it breaks up). How the country unites will vary over time. Canada right now is an independent state but it is clearly the same country and nation as the United States ("State" being a Legal entity as is Canada and the United States today, "Nation" being a group of people who see themselves as one people. while Canadians tend to deny this when push comes to shove they support the United States, and "Country" being a geography term that indicates one part of the planet that others sees as one country and they own people see as one country).

Thus, with maybe the exceptions of the French in Quebec and Louisiana, the United States and Canada has been one Nation since before the US Civil War (Which saw massive recruits from Canada to put down the South and make sure the South stayed part of the United States while England was supporting the South short of actually sending in troops). This was driven by the above water systems that tends to united everyone in the middle of North America as one Country. Now, Canada has stayed an independent State, but do to the fact England gave up controlling Canada without US permission during the 1860s AND given that situation it was NOT worth the effort to annex Canada formerly. Thus Canada stayed an independent State, while clearly being more and more part of one Nation and Country with the United States.

As to the East and West Coasts, once the Middle of the Continent was united, they had to part of it. They saw this in Colonial days and given the low population of Native Americans bu Colonial times saw the Middle of the Continent ripe for the taking, but once taken becoming dominate (While the East Coast retained its Leadership through trade and commerce, it has been more leadership then control). The same with the West Coast, but starting from a weaker and later position (And with a much smaller population in the part of Central North America next to the West Coast).

In any breakup, the Middle of North America (another name for the Mississippi River System) will re-unite sooner or later. It may be re-united by one of the states/countries on the coast, but it will be re-united and once re-united will expand to include the East Coast, Alaska and the Puget sound and Columbia River systems. The Rio Grand and Colorado river systems may end up with Mexico (again) or may end up with the Mississippi river system That is the one wild card and that depends on what happens in Mexico. If Mexico, during any breakup of North America, stays united or re-unite before the Mississippi river system, then the Colorado and Rio Grand will become Mexican again. If the Mississippi River re-unites first then to the Mississippi river system.

Southern California will go with the Colorado River. The San Francisco bay will go with Salt Lake City. If the Great basin (Where Salt Lake is on) goes with Mexico, so will San Francisco, if Salt Lake City goes with the Mississippi so will San Francisco for the best way to the Mississippi from San Francisco is via Salt Lake City. Unlike the Colorado and Rio Grande River Systems, Salt Lake City had a natural tendency to go with the Mississippi, simply because it is that much nearer then the Mexican valley AND Salt Lake City is on the best route between Denver Colorado (And the Mississippi River system) and San Francisco.

Now, just like today, we may see some parts of North America Independent States from the Mississippi River System but once the Mississippi River is united they will become part of the new Country and nation even if they stay independent states (aka Canada today). Only time will tell, but the tendency to stay united may make this whole debate moot, the United States may go through hard times, but stay united even as the rest of the world breaks up. We will have to see what happens for it will be more a product of how the country stays together and/or reunites then any other factor.

[Odin2005]

43. HELL NOOOO! This Fargoan wants nothing to do with the idiots in the southern plains!

Western Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas belong in Lockland, while Southern Illinois and Southern Indiana belong in Wheatland.

In fact the extent of Lockland as I would conceive of it, would follow quite closely the extent of the Inland North and North-Central dialects.The boundary between those two dialects in and the Midland dialects follows a quite sharp cultural divide.

[Rex]

46. LOL!

Funny. Texas would never let part go.

[KonaKane]

49. Kinda shows how senseless borders can be.

And I agree, they'd fight to the death over giving up one little sliver of Tumbleweedistan.

[Confusious]

61. I like dumbshitistan. nt

[Odin2005]

52. Here is how I would divide the US culturally:

Blue: North-East (Socially Liberal and Economically Progressive)
Red: The South (Socially Traditionalist and Economically Conservative)
Purple: The Great Lakes and Upper Midwest (Socially Moderate and Economically Progressive)
Yellow: The Lower Plains (Socially Traditional and Economically Progressive to Libertarian)
Tan: The Mountain West (Socially Traditionalist to Moderate and Economically Libertarian)
Green: Pacific Coast (Socially Liberal and Economically Progressive to Libertarian)

Don't know where Alaska would go.

[RKP5637]

55. That's pretty interesting. That's pretty much how I see it too having lived in

several of those areas over the years.

[DatManFromNawlins]

67. The only thing Southeastern Louisiana has in common with the rest of the South

Is a love of football.

[proteus_lives]

53. Are people still shopping this Fail around?

:eyes:

[KonaKane]

58. Relax. It was just a topic for conversation, not a mission.

Jeebus.

[TorchTheWitch]

54. what is a "deseret"?

[KonaKane]

59. Sorry, that's the Utah kid coming through.

It's what the Mormons originally wanted to call the nation they intended to establish when they migrated to the west after being chased out of the midwest..."Deseret".

[Confusious]

60. A small desert

kind of like an islet

or a dessert made from sand.

Haven't decided.

[SidDithers]

64. You'll notice that's not North America...nt

Sid

[ProgressiveProfessor]

65. Way too monolithic view of the west coast

Inland California, Oregon, and Washington are seriously red. Its only the coastal environs that are truly liberal. For example, Kern county.