I never wanted power or wealth, people like me are not motivated to accumulate these things

[G_j]

People like us are often motivated by community, art, music, finding sustainable ways of living, etc.

Unfortunately, there are others who are strongly motivated to accumulate power and wealth. It is for this reason that they are the ones with the power and control. It is why greed occupies the place at the top of the American pyramid.

Just musing on the irony of it all.

[Fumesucker]

1. A Frank Herbert quote you might like..

"Absolute power does not corrupt absolutely, absolute power attracts the corruptible."

[ibegurpard]

2. Interesting quote

quite apt

[chollybocker]

24. Originally....

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

John Dalberg-Acton, 1887.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_power_corrupts_absolutely#.22Lord_Acton.27s_dictum.22

[arcadian]

3. Commie!

me too

[tridim]

4. I love the shocked looks I get when I say, "I hate money".

That statement just doesn't compute for some people.

[Johonny]

16. money is the thing that allows you to avoid doing things you don't like

sense I don't like doing most things money is handy. Groucho Marx

I'd like to say I don't like money and power, but I won't lie. It wasn't my driving goal in life but I have ended up now making a good deal of money and it does turn out to be rather handy.

[Warpy]

5. Dirty hippie!

That's been me all my life.

[The2ndWheel]

6. The Parable Of The Tribes

http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC07/Schmoklr.htm

"The Parable

The new human freedom made striving for expansion and power possible. Such freedom, when multiplied, creates anarchy. The anarchy among civilized societies meant that the play of power in the system was uncontrollable. In an anarchic situation like that, no one can choose that the struggle for power shall cease. But there is one more element in the picture: no one is free to choose peace, but anyone can impose upon all the necessity for power. This is the lesson of the parable of the tribes.

Imagine a group of tribes living within reach of one another. If all choose the way of peace, then all may live in peace. But what if all but one choose peace, and that one is ambitious for expansion and conquest? What can happen to the others when confronted by an ambitious and potent neighbor? Perhaps one tribe is attacked and defeated, its people destroyed and its lands seized for the use of the victors. Another is defeated, but this one is not exterminated; rather, it is subjugated and transformed to serve the conqueror. A third seeking to avoid such disaster flees from the area into some inaccessible (and undesirable) place, and its former homeland becomes part of the growing empire of the power-seeking tribe. Let us suppose that others observing these developments decide to defend themselves in order to preserve themselves and their autonomy. But the irony is that successful defense against a power-maximizing aggressor requires a society to become more like the society that threatens it. Power can be stopped only by power, and if the threatening society has discovered ways to magnify its power through innovations in organization or technology (or whatever), the defensive society will have to transform itself into something more like its foe in order to resist the external force.

I have just outlined four possible outcomes for the threatened tribes: destruction, absorption and transformation, withdrawal, and imitation. In every one of these outcomes the ways of power are spread throughout the system. This is the parable of the tribes."

[NoNothing]

7. In other words people tend to get what they seek

That's not remotely ironic.

[Arugula Latte]

8. I'd be happy with a sense of security --

You know, the simple peace of mind that most of the civilized world has, that if they get sick they will be treated without regard to their ability to pay, and that their children will be able to attend a college without going into massive debt for the rest of their lives, and when they get old they won't be under the threat of homelessness.

[G_j]

13. there is a tremendous difference between wealth and security

you said it very well.

[zipplewrath]

9. Slightly different point of view, but similar

We all have skills. Depending upon the economy of the day, they can be valuable, or not. A good hunter has to struggle to find a use in Manhattan. A skilled software engineer has few uses in a nomadic tribe. We are not all motivated by the value that our society will put on our work product. We won't turn the money down either though. (By the way, that whole "sustainable way of living" thing could get real profitable in a couple of decades.)

I knew a guy that was literally bumming around at about 30 years old. Dropped out of school without the degree. Odd jobs here and there. Did the ski bum thing a couple of winters. Was darn close to moving back in with mom and dad at 30 when one of dad's friends offered him work "helping out around the office". Turned out to be a small trading outfit, mostly commercial grade stuff. Within 6 months the guy is making a quarter million a year on commissions and moves to a bigger firm to make the really big bucks. Did that for about 15 years (late '80s and through the '90s) then decided he had had enough. Quit his job, got into making childrens toys out of wood. Never really made more than he spent making them. Lived happy until the cancer got him. He was never into it "For the money". Just found something he was good at and did it until he got bored. Then started doing something else. Doesn't mean he didn't make a boat load-o-cash for a while though.

[Froward69]

10. Shelter, Food and Sex are the only

things that ever motivated me.

[Swede]

11. The will to power is a prominent concept in the philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/travis_denneson/power.html

[Odin2005]

12. The notion that people are inherently selfish is just projection by the selfish.

Unfortunately it economic dogma.

[applegrove]

17. You are so perceptive. Yes that is certainly the case for neocons.

[walldude]

14. Funny, I had a debate with a DU'er

about this very subject as it related to the miners. They just couldn't figure out why those people didn't try to get out of the mining town and "move up the ladder". After tying to explain that some people don't care about "the ladder" that the miners and their families were a community of people working together to do a dangerous and important job and they probably valued that sense of family and community and accomplishment much more than "moving up the ladder", the poster took my claims as an "insult" and moved on.

[G_j]

15. that's a good example, of course people want to provide for their families.

that is not the same motivation as the big latter, or game, that the economy is built on.
It hardly matters anyway, because the real wealth and power rests with the tiniest percentage.

[Odin2005]

25. Wow, how could anyone be insulted by that?

[Warpy]

34. All the miners I've known were damned proud

of doing what they do. Often, they're from multi generational mining families on both sides and feel it's a part of their heritage and culture.

They neither need nor want office jobs "up the ladder."

[bobbolink]

18. I'd like very much to have some things. Like a roof and a bedroom.

When you have what you need, its easy to say you don't like money.

[Luminous Animal]

19. I do believe the OP advocates for a sustainable way of living.

And certainly, a roof, a bedroom, (and health care, food, clothing) are integral to a sustainable way of living.

[bobbolink]

26. Assumptions don't provide a roof.

We know well enough that homelessness isn't addressed in this country... by either conservatives or "progressives".

Those of us who are suffering take NOTHING for granted.

[G_j]

27. having security is not same thing as accumulating wealth and power

for the sake of having wealth and power. I wish you would not insist on distorting what I was trying to say.

[bobbolink]

28. Security wasn't mentioned. Money was. People in my situation take nothing for granted.

I am disappointed that you cannot see what it is like to be in this position.

Saying we need MONEY to stay alive isn't "distortion". We are pointing out that it is easy to take for granted what you have.

Very disappointed.

[G_j]

29. if you even briefly scanned the thread, it should have been clear

Sorry, I can't work with people who attempt to spin me into being the villain.

[bobbolink]

30. What is clear is that this is where the class divide is. What you take for granted, others of us

are suffering the lack of.

Of COURSE we want money! WE aren't surviving.. the rest of you are, and what was said was directed to other middleclass people. Those of us who don't fit that description are very aware that we are left out of the "conversation", and are NOT important. It hurts, and more and more of us will speak up.

When any group of people are left out, eventually they raise a ruckus. It is OK for blacks, for gays for other groups in the past to get your attention. The time has now come to point to these messages for middleclass people that leave out a whole group of us.

I have asked in every way I know how for "progressives" to join in taking action against the forces that are literally killing us. It is ignored. I asked politely and carefully for help with a very possible project.

NADA.

You wouldn't treat any other left out group like that, and its time to see what it is doing to some of us.

You want to paint that as "spin", so be it. We're in good company, because all the other leftout groups of the past have been accused of the same thing.

I *did* ask you, and asked very politely. I was ignored.

Now I see this message about middleclass people without a sense of what it sounds like to those of us doing without. "Spin"? That's your perception. Not reality.

[G_j]

31. I don't disagree with your take on that issue

it's just that this is NOT what the OP was about, Your predisposition to make it into something else is the problem.

:hi:

[bobbolink]

32. The same thing has been said about blacks, gays, women, etc.

Targeting *me*, personally, as being "wrong", "at fault" and "spinning", when I said NOTHING PERSONAL about you not only hurts, but prevents any understanding.

There is a CLASS DIVIDE, and I, as a former muddleclass person, am seeing more clearly what those who have lived their whole lives in poverty have ALWAYS seen, and I WIll speak up about it.

I would think, as a "progressive", that you would value that, rather than use it to target me personally.

THIS IS A CLASS ISSUE.

It seems wise to understand this, which would help to understand those you want to vote in the future. If you can't understand us, you can't listen to us, and if you can't listen to us, there is no communication, and if there is no communication, you are losing a large part of your constituency.

I have come to the point of being done with the hurt of trying to communicate with those who ignore me, and if I refuse to be ignored, then they go after me personally.

I am disappointed. I thought there was more to our friendship that just me being quiet. I guess I was wrong.

[Luminous Animal]

33. You are distorting the OP which quite clearly states "wealth and power"

Wealth is the "state of being rich". The OP eschews wealth which does not mean a rejection of money. And yes, most people who advocate for sustainability also advocate for systems that meet the needs of the people.

[REP]

20. I had a laugh at that too; likes money well enough to buy a computer and Internet access

...and a place to use them both.

It's easy to scorn things one has no use for (say, a pet elephant) or that one has enough of (money for food, shelter and a few extras).

[G_j]

21. is there something about the terms wealth and power

you don't understand?

[REP]

22. Maybe you're asking the wrong person?

Born into one of the wealthiest societies on Earth, we think we have little wealth or power because others have more; but even more have less of both than either of us.

[G_j]

23. so you call the shots in our system?

you buy the laws and regulations you want passed, you own people's houses and cars, their credit?
Are you aware that a tiny handful own and control most everything in this country?