If every fertilized egg has a soul ...

[Lionel Mandrake]

Many people believe that fertilization (of an egg by a sperm) creates a new human being, complete with a soul. If that is true, I have a couple of questions.

1. Sometimes a zygote (fertilized egg) splits into two zygotes, which become identical twins. Each twin presumably has a separate soul. What happened to the soul of the original zygote? Did it disappear to be replaced by two new souls, or did one of the twins inherit the original soul while the other twin received a brand new soul?

2. Sometimes two zygotes fuse to form a tetragametic chimera, i.e., someone with DNA derived from four gametes instead of two. Different cells in such a person may contain different DNA. This can lead to bizarre legal problems, e.g., a DNA test showing that a mother is unrelated to her children:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Fairchild

My question is this: what happened to the souls of the two zygotes when they merged to form a single zygote? Did the two souls merge to form a single soul, or did they disappear as a new soul was created, or did one of the two original souls take over while the other disappeared?

[Kerrytravelers]

1. Now there you go, using that old think machine again. That's of the devil, dontcha know.

:rofl:

[Oregone]

2. You are mixing science and religion

And religion says your science is make-believe

[TZ]

55. Plus a BRAZILLION

A zygote is a scientific description of a bunch of human cells. A soul is a superstitious/religious term. This is WORSE than comparing apples and oranges..this is akin to saying dinosaurs and men lived together.

[ScreamingMeemie]

3. I'm now going to tell you what my priest told me when I was a girl.

"You have to have Faith." That's it. Simple answer. Have faith. Forget science. Accept it. Move along now and stop stirring up the masses with your scary talk.

[havocmom]

57. My uncle had trouble in school

with a science teacher who had the same approach as your priest.

[marybourg]

4. It's not supposed to make sense. That's why it's called:

"Faith"

[county worker]

8. You said it right. I remember in Catholic school that if you can explain it ,

take it on faith. That covers everything!

[Arugula Latte]

29. "Faith is believing what you know ain't true." -- Mark Twain

[Lionel Mandrake]

73. I'm proud to say I haven't got any of that....nt

[tridim]

5. I'm thinking.. Breakfast for dinner tonight!

Quite the interesting, unanswerable question you've posed.

[eShirl]

6. That's enough to make a school nun rap your knuckles with the metal edge of a ruler

[MrModerate]

7. Solution 1: There's no such thing as a soul, so no foul . . .

Solution 2: Souls divide and combine like cells, so no foul.

How many angels did you say can dance on the head of a pin (or in Bill O'Reilly's case, a pinhead)?

[Turbineguy]

9. For these people,

eating Spam constitutes cannibalism.

[panader0]

10. Rocks, trees, birds, clouds, concrete.

[BlooInBloo]

11. I'm not sure who is more irrational - soul people, or those who try to argue rationally with them.

[Lionel Mandrake]

12. We're all irrational.

That's how are brains are wired.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

17. I don't think the OP is trying to convince the whackos of anything.

Rather, it's exposing them as the whackos they are.

[Warpy]

13. Then there's the problem of the teratoma

Occasionally a fraternal twin isn't viable for one reason or another and is absorbed into the surviving twin. It exists as a tumor, sometimes with hair and teeth, to be discovered later when its growth threatens a vital organ system. Since it's a separate individual with separate DNA, does its removal constitute an abortion according to canon law?

Such are the problems presented by those "personhood at conception" arguments.

For me, personhood occurs with that first independent breath and not before.

[ScreamingMeemie]

15. ...and don't forget...the blighted ovum...

blighted soul? Limbo? Purgatory?? Who knows?

[Warpy]

35. The church did away with Limbo

and that brings up another real problem with their dogma.

If aborted "souls" all go directly to heaven, which is what unbaptized infants supposedly do now, the alternative being unthinkable for innocent life despite the sin it supposedly has as a birthright, wouldn't it make more sense to abort them all and send them to heaven before they have a chance to sin their way into hell?

The abolition of Limbo was a blunder of colossal proportion if the church still wants to cling to its anti abortion stance.

[ScreamingMeemie]

36. Yes. I know. I was being tongue in cheek if you note my other post

on Limbo and what happened to all those fertilized eggs and unbaptized babies once they did away with it. Believe me, I grew up in the Catholic Church, its schools and it's CCD classes. :hi:

[Warpy]

39. It's hard not to be a little tongue in cheek

when describing most facets of religious dogma, most especially Catholic dogma. I often wondered how the nuns and priests managed it with a straight face. That must've been what the mortification of the flesh was all about, to teach them how to sell that stuff with a pained face denoting extreme piety.

I survived Catholic school, too.

Barely.

[Lionel Mandrake]

18. Interesting problem.

Are there any experts on canon law lurking here?

[RainDog]

22. what a strange discovery that must be.

the truth is that the idea that a zygote has the same rights as an adult female is A LIE and demonstrates a deep-seated hatred of females.

this is the truth about you if you hold the position that women should not have access to safe and legal abortion according to the provisions of Roe v. Wade.

anti-choicers hate women. they may pretend to themselves their concerns are this or that, but, ultimately, it comes down to misogyny.

[rug]

41. If it's dead, it's not an abortion.

[Warpy]

49. It's not dead. It's living and growing and that is how it's discovered

when it starts pressing on something vital and causing the host pain or illness.

It's a discrete individual with discrete DNA.

Try again.

[rug]

50. Don't be obtuse.

A potato is living and growing and has unique DNA.

In your hypothetical, it has become a human tumor not a human being.

Do you really see no difference between that and an embryo?

[Warpy]

51. It's exactly the same living and growing a fertilized ovum does.

Thank you for playing.

[rug]

70. Ok, tell me your fingernail's birthday and I'll send it a card.

[Warpy]

72. It;'s the same as mine, silly

and I'll be waiting for that card.

[Mother Smuckers]

14. I don't know about that, but I do know that many pregnancies are spontaneously aborted

often before the owner of the zygote is even aware of it...which seems to indicate that nature or some unproven deity is the world's champion abortionist. Maybe the souls from those get recycled and that's where schizophrenics come from...?
:silly:

edited a wacky typo sorry

[piratefish08]

16. if every fertilized egg has a soul, what happens to the millions of miscarriages each year?

do they go to heaven or does god recycle?

and what if you're born soulless like dick cheney? does somebody else get his soul and their own? that doesn't seem fair.

I demand some answers!

[ScreamingMeemie]

20. Limbo Dude...! That's where all the little unborn eggs go...except the

Church got rid of that a few decades ago so that had to bus all those little unborn eggs over to...hmmm...was it purgatory? Heaven? Can't remember.

[FarCenter]

26. The majority of fertilized eggs fail to implant in the uterine wall, and get flushed away

So the majority of souls in heaven (or whereever) are people with no more than one to several cells.

[eppur_se_muova]

66. That's only paradoxical if you assume Cheney's human.

Solution: obvious.

[Naturalist111]

19. Musical chairs!

That is a very good question. The soul would be put back into cue? This is a question that will never be answered in this realm. Albert Einstein quote "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

[customerserviceguy]

21. One does not need to believe in the concept of a soul

and it's metaphysical ramifications in odd circumstances in order to believe in human dignity. And each society, no matter where it existed on the planet or in time, makes its own distinctions about which beings are entitled to be considered persons deserving of such dignity, and which are not. Some such distinctions will seem quite arbitrary to members of a different society.

[Lionel Mandrake]

27. True enough.

In the UK, embryos used in research must be destroyed within 14 days of fertilization.

Andere Leute, andere Sitten.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

37. Cultural relativism is vastly overrated.

A culture that believes a bunch of undiferentiated cells is worthy of human dignity is as wrong as one that believes the Earth is flat, or one that believes women are inferior.

[skepticscott]

23. It's questions like these

that have kept theologians employed for centuries. Without the need to make the silliness of organized religion seem at least superficially reasonable, they'd all be unemployed. But you can bet that the Catholics have been working on this one...

[mike_c]

24. every sperm is SACRED!

Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate....

:rofl: Best. Monte. Python. Ever.

OK, that's a really hard call, but judge for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47P59ha9k9s

[Lionel Mandrake]

33. Thats a great movie.

I was channel surfing one day and landed on that song. I had no idea what I was watching. But it was great.

Later I watched the whole movie and was pleased to see that Protestants got skewered, too.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

44. "But I can put a little rubber thingie on my Old Fellow, because we're Protestant."

:rofl:

[stray cat]

25. if a fetus is not human why do we spend money treating them?

its murder if someone kills a wanted fetus in a mother's womb but not if it isn't wanted?

I'm pro-choice but both sides are hypocritical

[RainDog]

34. no. it's not murder.

the he-man woman-haters club wants to make it a crime, tho.

Roe v. Wade provides a very clear and sane demarcation of the rights of women v a zygote v an embryo v a fetus.

a zygote becomes a blastocyte. a zygote is smaller than this: . it has no consciousness.

until approx. two weeks after conception, the blastocyte is not attached to the uterine wall. the first few days of conception consist of a zygote descending from the fallopian tubes. it has not even reached the uterus until nearly two weeks after conception.

after two weeks, the blastocyte is termed an embryo. it has attached to the uterine wall and has begun to produce hormones.

an embryo looks sort of like a tadpole. except it's microscopic.

at 7 weeks, an embryo no longer has "gills" - it begins to move from general animal to mammal.

at 2 months, the embryo begins to develop the "reptilian brain" - the most basic brain of all animals.

developmentally and medically, a fetus does not exist until 10 weeks.

over 90% of abortions are performed before this stage.

our law states that women and their families have the right to decide how to deal with a pregnancy that has resulted in a non-viable fetus. the majority of abortions that occur in mid and late pregnancy are due to other medical conditions.

THIS is the reality that anti-choice people want to prohibit.

[Warren DeMontague]

28. Or, if a fertilized egg is frozen for 15 years, then brought to term, shouldn't that 7 year old be

able to drink in a bar?

[Arugula Latte]

31. New definition of "old soul"

[Naturalist111]

30. Scary replies on this one. Reminds me of a group.

[undeterred]

32. What if you use a fertilized chicken egg when you make a cake?

Will the cake have a soul? Or is it fowl?

[LanternWaste]

38. One could arguably apply the tenets of

One could arguably apply the tenets of (I'm presuming Christian) marriage in that during the ceremony, the souls of the groom and the bride both become not as one, but actually becomes one soul. So your first supposition amy be in line with the classical churches doctrine in that respect-- the two souls merge and become as one.

That is in fact a major reason the classical western churches looked upon divorce with such great vehemence in that it destroys that one soul-- a right the churches said belong only to God (e.g., "let no man tear asunder what God has brought together...").

Not that I would apply that in this case, but I have heard it argued as thus...

[RainDog]

42. however, like transubstantiation, "the two become one" is a metaphor

it is not a reality.

it is possible to test wine and know that it has not turned into blood. it is possible to test dna and know that two people have not become one.

two people still maintain legal status as individual human beings. of course, this religious tenet was the basis for denying rights to women for thousands of years, so it's one that is mighty pleasing to misogynists.

this religious belief made it possible to deny women the right to vote, to claim the right to be with their children if the male forbade it (children were also the property of the male... which is the case some men make today, in essence, when they say that their sperm input is equal to a woman's entire life), to hold a job without permission from a male.

The problem today with all of these metaphorical views of existence is that they have become bludgeons to try to force women back into second-class citizenship.

[LanternWaste]

56. As per the church in regards to marriage

As per the classical church view in regards to souls and marriage, it is not a metaphor, it is perceived as a reality. Two people, one soul (referred to as the 'Creation Ordinance'). Hence, the differentiation between the implication of the flesh: "the two shall become as one", versus the implication of the spirit: "the two shall be one."

That the two in flesh becomes as one is indeed a metaphor, however as per Order for the Solemnization of Matrimony, The Book of Common Prayer (1662), and 'The Faith of Our Fathers, (James Cardinal Gibbons - 1876), the two souls do indeed become one rather than "as one". This line of reasoning is further validated by the common marriage vows used by most western churches until very recently.

However, I do imagine that it is all predicated on whether one takes classical church doctrine itself as merely metaphor...

[RainDog]

60. metaphor vs. reality

Reality may be tested by the tools we hold at hand to discover if something is "reality" or mental gymnastics.

To say something is "perceived as reality" simply means that someone holds a belief that they do not subject to any tests of reality to determine if such a belief has any basis in reality.

Faith is a "perceived reality."

Creationism is a "perceived reality."

The idea that a zygote deserves the same rights as an adult female is a "perceived reality."

iow, "perceived reality" is a way of stating a belief that has no foundation in the physical world that gives it the sheen of respect by aligning perception or belief with existence on the material plane.

It's "faith-speak." It cannot bear scrutiny because the perception then becomes subject to critical and analytical thinking which demonstrates the "perception" is "falsehood." Or, when using falsehood to communicate a feeling or thought... it becomes a metaphor.

The closest to reality that any look at belief has come, from the things I know or/have read about on the subject is the story of Abraham's sacrifice by Kierkegaard. Faith is insanity... faith is giving up all claims to cause and effect.

[Lionel Mandrake]

62. But metaphor is indispensable.

All language, and arguably all thought, is metaphorical.

Not that I disagree with Kierkegaard about faith.

[RainDog]

64. Absolutely agreed!!

Language is beautiful because of metaphor and onomatopoeia. Existence is made more beautiful and glorious by language and abstraction.

However, I do not want a "metaphorical" surgeon operating on me. I want to be able to establish boundaries, for the good of myself and others, so that if someone claims she is a surgeon, she has the training for this claim.

For that reason, we define things. We categorize them. We compare them with other things. We make a statement about something and we test this statement against statements that have been accepted within the category of reality.

Reality is part of a category we call knowledge.

To test faith against reality is eating from the tree of knowledge... of everything (tov wa-ra)

Which is why Kierkegaard seems to approach reality when he acknowledges that faith is absurd. Belief precedes reality.

[RainDog]

65. Absolutely agreed!!

Language is beautiful because of metaphor and onomatopoeia. Existence is made more beautiful and glorious by language and abstraction.

However, I do not want a "metaphorical" surgeon operating on me. I want to be able to establish boundaries, for the good of myself and others, so that if someone claims she is a surgeon, she has the training for this claim.

For that reason, we define things. We categorize them. We compare them with other things. We make a statement about something and we test this statement against statements that have been accepted within the category of reality.

Reality is part of a category we call knowledge.

To test faith against reality is eating from the tree of knowledge... of everything (tov wa-ra)

Which is why Kierkegaard seems to approach reality when he acknowledges that faith is absurd. Belief precedes reality.

[LanternWaste]

63. Faith is simply trust in that of which we do not have full knowledge...

Faith is simply trust in that of which we do not have full knowledge. And, as I'm not very clever and do not have full knowledge of, well.... anything, I'm forced to rely on faith-- faith that the drivers close by me don't pass out or decide to do a 360 on the highway, faith that the chair I'm about to sit in will not collapse, faith that I'm aligned with the correct political party that will better realize my own social goals, etc.

I'm certainly not disputing your assertions, merely allowing an additional classical perspective of the church's views on souls. I don't pretend to know myself-- there are people who are better at that than I.

[RainDog]

68. No, you have tested reality and found that it is reasonable to think/believe certain things.

You believe that cars will run in the way they were built to run. You believe that people will respect traffic laws.

the reason you hold those beliefs is that you have observed, over the course of your lifetime, that most people do not endanger others and most cars run as they were built to run.

that's not faith. you have tested that belief against reality and found it is reasonable.

your knowledge of the way in which reality exists around you allows you to do various things because such knowledge makes it possible to believe that what has been will be the next time you drive.

[immoderate]

71. Faith has more than one meaning.

The faith that the sun will rise tomorrow is not the same as the faith that the Overlord of the Universe will be sympathetic with your pleas.

--imm

[rug]

40. Interesting questions.

As far as Catholic dogma is concerned, there is no official position.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=16880

[Motown_Johnny]

43. God knows if a zygote will split or fuse and provides the correct number of souls in advance

all knowing all seeing covers everything



Stop Trying To Rationalize The Irrational


it won't ever work

[Lionel Mandrake]

45. Maybe He gets careless once in a while and says to Himself,

"Damn, I forgot to give that guy a soul. I'd better fuse him with another embryo that already has a soul."

[Motown_Johnny]

48. or just causes a miscarriage

[ismnotwasm]

46. I don't know, but

I'll offer to send any potential fertilized egg that may have dropped on my 'feminine products' to be baptized as soon as the lucky denomination steps up and makes the offer-- Monthly. I figure they should be more than happy to pay the postage.

[Lars39]

47. Soul, no soul...doesn't matter if the host isn't willing.

[iris27]

52. Also - natural miscarriages happen constantly.

Most times, the woman likely didn't even know she was pregnant. If it's simple failure to implant, her period may not even be late or be heavier than normal. Using the logic that all fertilized eggs have souls, more souls have come into this world and left it without ever getting out of the womb than all of us who've ever lived.

[RainDog]

53. god has a wicked sense of humor

it's okay for a soul to be flushed down the toilet if god aborted it. otherwise, it's "sacred."

[snooper2]

54. The premise of your question is false so the question is immaterial

The concept of a soul exists but I'm sorrry, there is no such thing as a soul in you. You don't go floating away somewhere when your body ceases to function. That's it...

You can take that to the bank :)

[Heidi]

58. No holy card for you, young Mr. Mandrake. (nt)

[Lionel Mandrake]

61. Well dayum,

I was looking forward to receiving that card. ;-)

[sudopod]

59. They glom together to make a more powerful soul.

Kind of like the Megazord, or Voltron.

[deaniac21]

67. It depends on the shoe brand.

[Lionel Mandrake]

69. No, it's what comes after fa.

[deaniac21]

77. Wasn't there a movie about von Braun titled

I Shoot For The Stars (but sometimes I hit London)?

[Vinca]

74. Jeeezus says it's fine. That's all you need to know.

:rofl:

[cap]

75. there are 400K souls in deep freeze

waiting for a womb...Yup, 400K embryos waiting for an adoption. I don't hear anything from the pro-life crowd about this.

[olegramps]

76. It is only a problem for those who believe in unprovable myths.

Seems to me that Christian doctrine regarding this issue is based on Plato's concept of the immortal soul that he developed primarily in his dialogue the Phaedo.