Penn & Teller Bullshit is Bullshit ...

[BearSquirrel2]

Penn & Teller has gored more then one of my oxes. You can hardly be shocked when someone disagrees with you. However, tonights show was an irrational illogical libertarian screed.

Apparently, Penn & Teller now think that the purpose of the ADA was to legislate compassion rather then provide equal access to public places. Apparently, they believe that handicapped Americans would have MORE not LESS access without the law. Did they even bother comparing amount of access before and after ADA.

They addressed the issue of a sue happy lawyer who used ADA as bludgeon. But this has nothing to do with ADA, this has to do with our continued reluctance to turn the legal system on lawyers who abuse the system. Granted their is abuse of handicapped parking. But it's certainly no more abusive then those who park there illegally.

Penn & Teller's biggest complaint seems to be the fact that all those parking spaces are empty. THAT'S THE POINT!!!! When a handicapped van rolls up to a place of business, there is a parking space available with the proper clearance to get the chair in and out of the vehicle.

Codes for access in public buildings. Penn & Teller laments the 100 page document for compliance. But this document is not targeted at individual citizens, it's meant for architects and contractors who hire lawyers to tell them HOW they need to be compliant.

Penn & Teller are staunch opponents of religion. But it's clear that they indeed have a religion and it's holiest shrine is the Cato Institute. The fact that my opinions based on reason mesh with their's is a mere coincidence. I can't watch them anymore. Their standards of proof are WAAAAYY to low and their editing treats their opponents like idiots. Anyone who can call providing basic access to everyone has got a screw loose.

Penn & Teller, you're off record now. "Bullshit" is not sane, researched, reasonable or civil. It's just whatever Penn & Teller believe with a few statistics thrown in.

[Bunny]

1. Penn Jillette is an asshole.

He's rapidly approaching the John Stossel level of assholery.

[spoony]

2. Absolutely. I'd love to snip that ponytail

as he sleeps :P

[lapfog_1]

6. He is also a perv.

My girlfriend once did a promo video for their TV series in Las Vegas... and Penn was inappropriate (physical as well as verbal) to the point of sexual harassment with her, including trying to grab her breasts at one point.

[Naturyl]

3. Libertarians are selfish jerks.

What part of that do some Democrats still not get?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

9. *cough* Bill Maher *cough*

Just had to clear my throat. ;)

[Beelzebud]

34. Oh yeah Maher is never a selfish jerk. lol

He just thinks it's ok to perform illegal wiretapping because he lives near a port.

[Morgana LaFey]

90. He's also a Class A Misogynist --

and in my book that makes him pretty damn selfish and more than "just" a jerk, but jerk will do for starters. I love everything else about him, but I hate his rank misogyny.

[iamjoy]

4. Haven't Watched It Yet

Sometimes I agree with them, sometimes I don't. But it's usually amusing if nothing else. Like trashing the Global Warming movement - they got environmentalists to sign a petition banning dihydrogen monoxide.

IT does seem to me though, that there are flaws with ADA. In particular, handicapped parking is usually designed for people in wheelchairs, not who have other disabilities. The handicapped spot is not always the closest. That's okay maybe for some one in a wheelchair, but what if it's some one with a heart problem who is mobile, but can't walk distances?

[Solon]

15. BULLSHIT!!!!

Just keeping with the theme here, however, my Grandfather had a handicapped license plate, due to his heart condition, and my Grandmother has a "temp" tag because of knee replacement surgery. Neither was wheelchair bound for more than the stay at the hospital. My Dad also was given a temp tag because of his stroke, he was using a walker for about 3 months.

[iamjoy]

30. But That's What I'm Saying

what if the person has the handicapped tag but is not in a wheelchair?

The handicapped space is not necessarily the most convenient, leaving the person with the walker with further to go to get where he or she needs to be.

Reserved handicapped spaces should be the closest and most convenient. Not everyone who is disabled is in a wheelchair; some may need to be closer because of difficulty walking.

I noticed it with my mother when she was temporarily disabled due to blood clots in her leg (and lung) following a botched surgery. The Orlando Arena was particularly horrible. A few hundred feet. I noticed it with my brother-in-law who had a congenital heart condition that left him wheezing if he had to walk down the block.

[Solon]

72. I don't understand you objection...

All handicapped spots around here are as close to the front doors as possible, and the ramps help people that aren't in wheelchairs too. Not to mention the clearance space that many folks need, either to get a wheelchair out of a car or van, or to get a walker out of the back seat and be able to fold it out. We can bitch about the basic design of, let's say, Mall Parking lots, but even then, the handicapped spaces are the closest spaces to the entrances, even if you have to cross a lane that's there for traffic.

[iamjoy]

80. It's Different Here, I Guess

I have seen some stores or shopping centers where the handicapped spot is not the closest.

AND, I also see it in restrooms, the handicapped spot is at the end of the row of stalls - although a non wheelchair person wouldn't necessarily need the handicapped stall (sometimes, but not always).

So maybe what I am (inelegantly) saying is I think ADA needs to be TOUGHER and BROADER

[ProfessorGAC]

38. I Have One

I have MS. Some days i can walk 10 miles, some days it's a struggle to walk 100 yards. I will say i have never used it, and i'm not close to a wheelchair. But, i think i deserve to have the tag, just in case.
The Professor

[mmonk]

19. If you have COPD one day

and carry oxygen, maybe you'll realize it's not just for wheelchair bound people.

[REP]

20. I Think We're All In Agreement

I think the post you replied to agrees with you; the poster mentioned that not hcap spaces are the ones closest to an entrance, which may be a burden for those with disabilities like heart disease (or who use oxygen, for that matter - or any number of other disabling conditions that don't require hardware).

I neither use a wheelchair nor oxygen, but I have an hcap pass, and have noticed that indeed sometimes the hcap spots are the least convenient.

[mmonk]

23. I read it wrong. Thanks.

Who is Penn And Teller anyway?

[REP]

25. A Couple of Dipshits Who Used to Be Okay Magicians

Penn Gillette is the kind of guy you pray won't sit next to you on the bus; Teller is slightly less creepy and his shtick is that he never speaks.

[never cry wolf]

75. It depends on where you are, in Illinois the HC stalls have to be the closest

The ADA is a civil rights legislation, the actual building codes are set by the more local municipalities. The Illinois Accessibility Code (IAC) is one of the more strict around. A person with a heart condition could sue the business with more remote stalls under the ADA and usually the solution is for the business to restripe and move the signs.

When the IAC was enacted it was the first building code that a code official could be held liable for enforcing and as such most plan reviewers erred and over interpreted the requirements. We had to retrofit a kitchen sink in a trucker's lounge in an industrial building to make it accessible. We also designed a training facility for laborer apprentices for the laborer's union. It had a small mezzanine which contained a break room. The plans were approved by the county before the IAC was enacted. The site got annexed into a local suburb and their building department required vertical accessibility to the mezzanine. We argued that the people using the break room were apprentice laborer's for goodness sake, but their reasoning was that the guy who put the chips in the vending machine may be in a wheelchair. We had to ass a chair lift.

All in all, however, it is a good thing, IMHO. I see more and more people with physical challenges out and about and in the workforce, enjoying a more normal lifestyle.

[MethuenProgressive]

5. In NH, there's a mountain hut that's accessible - if someone carries you and your chair 4000' up.

An accessable privy and wheelchair ramps on the AMC's remote Galehead hut 4.5 miles and 4000 feet up a mountain that can only be reached by climbing steep trail? There's literally no part of this trail where a wheelchair can go without being pushed, pulled, or carried. You'd think, wouldn't you, that if you had enough friends to carry you up a mountain, one of then would help you up the stairs into the hut?
Sorry, but that's bullshit.

[ret5hd]

7. Man oh man, that's ridiculous...

We should scrap this entire debacle and start from scratch, don't you think? There is absolutely no excuse for the fact that a law that has helped thousands of humanities weakest should EVER be used to BLUDGEON a builder into putting in an obviously unneeded ramp. Even tho this is an obvious case of misapplication of a law that was designed to help, let's SCRAP IT!

[friendly_iconoclast]

13. No bullshit, it is *is* being used by disabled hikers

Having watched a video of a group of hikers with disabilities bust their asses
to get to this hut, I think it's a great idea. These folks, and others like
them, now get to enjoy extreme hiking like everyone else, and get to rest up for the next day's hike while their able-bodied comrades get to rest up too. The extra energy
the disabled hikers and helpers (if any) expended to get to the hut makes an accessable overnight stop a necessity.

Tell you what, MP. Why don't you ask any sportsperson with a disability about muscle
fatigue and extra energy use? Any textbook on physical rehabilitation can explain
how simply getting around for someone with a physical disability requires substantially
more effort than it does for the ablebodied.

The AMC is happy with this (after some initial reservations, granted), the disability sports community is happy with the idea of accessable mountain sports, so what's your beef with this?

[MethuenProgressive]

18. I don't know if you've been up to Galehead, but I have several times.

And it's silly to have forced the AMC to build a wheelchair accessible hut on top of a mountain wheelchairs can't get to - unless, like in the film you mention, dozens of people carry, push, pull, and haul them 4.5 miles up a 4000' mountain. As of last year, no other wheelchairs except the ones filmed have made the trip. I have arthritis, a broken back, and a degenerative condition that means there'll be a time when I won't be able to climb anymore. Should I start lobbying for a chairlift to every mountaintop? How about flattening out and paving the Appalachian Trail? Escalators up Katahdin? There's a point at which every argument crosses the bright line of sensible to silly, and forcing the AMC to build a wheelchair accessible mountaintop hut was that line.

[ThomCat]

39. Laws don't take into account exceptional places like that.

They are written to be universally applicable, so that if a person with a disability can get there they can use the facilities.

I'm sorry if one exceptional location is so important to you that you think an entire law should be abandoned. Perhaps those of us with disabilities should just be required by law to stay home.
x(

[MethuenProgressive]

46. Do not put words in my mouth, ThomCat.

You said: "I'm sorry if one exceptional location is so important to you that you think an entire law should be abandoned."

I never said that. And I don't believe it, either. But, there's a point at which every argument crosses the bright line of sensible to silly - and twisting a sensible law into one requiring remote mountaintop huts to install wheelchair ramps stairs is silly.

[ThomCat]

49. There there are guildlines for being exempt from a law

businesses will find ways to get that exemption. Then noplace would be accessible.

The ADA is already so full of loopholes that vast numbers of places will never be accessible. I'm not going to complain about a small number of odd but harmless outcomes if it makes sure that as many places as possible are accessible.

Nobody is harmed or stopped by making that place accessible. A lot of people would be harmed or stopped by any additional exemptions or loopholes added to the law.

[BearSquirrel2]

83. Lets remember ...

We also have to remember that the cost of "specializing" the law could easily exceed the excess the ridiculous cases that it covers.

BTW, the drive up cash machines with the braille keys do seem silly when you presume that the driver of the car is blind. But many people are driven there and then they can access the terminal from the backseat. Or they can simply get out of the and use the terminal. Notice that they are not wheelchair accessible.

Of course, it might just be cheaper to make one set of keys instead of a braille version and a non-braille version.

[eagler]

8. These guys are bigots on par with Imus

[Raine]

86. They're hypocrites

they dumped all over Imus..."people who live in glass houses etc." :mad:

[rucky]

10. Disabled people are such a bother.

to paraphrase.

What a couple of pricks. Even the mute.

[Bill219]

11. ...

Wait till you check out their Wal Mart lovefest episode where Wal mart is good for the economy of small towns and anyone that criticizes Wal Mart is bad.

I just about wanted to puke watching that episode

[BearSquirrel2]

17. I saw the Wal-Mart one ...

I saw the Wal-Mart one and I simply disagreed. They did find a couple of asshole t-shirt vendors to interview. The irony of that episode was that when Penn went back to his old town, they found that the businesses were dying out as a result of all the Wal-Marts put up in adjacent communities.

The environmentalist episode was kind of amusing. They are wrong about global warming. But when your protest movement is based on "going along" instead of education you have some problems. The di-hydrogen monoxide petition was humorous, etc...

Penn and Teller are magicians. They're not scientists or social scientists. Nor are they even scientists. They openly mock anti-scientific thought but mock scientists when it is convenient for them in favor of other people who take their viewpoint as was clearly seen in the anti-environmental episode. The episode where they attacked COLLEGE was the most blatently anti-intellectual of all. Yes, lets revere science but not teach it to the next generation ... nice plan. We'll just buy everyone copies of bullshit DVDs instead.

The episodes they had in their genre (debunking crackpots using magic to defraud people) they were straight on. When they start applying their libertarianism to law, I think they really jump off the deep end.

So Penn you FUCK!!! Stick to your FUCKING crackpots and charletons!!!! Don't attack FUCKING laws meant to give fair FUCKING access to fucking people in FUCKING wheel chairs. FUCK, FUCK, FUCK, FUCK ... YOU FUCKER!!!

[mopinko]

33. that was my alderman in the walmart one. not the one in the fur

coat. the other one. that was shown in the middle of a tight runoff, and it made me go hmmm, maybe joe has enemies in higher places than i thought.
in the end, it seemed to be- walmart is good because we say it is good, and besides, these babes are taking their shirts off. never mind that a couple of them seemed to have bought their boobs at walmart.
yup, libertarian bullshit.

[snappyturtle]

44. ME TOO! P & T used to be fun to watch......not anymore. nt

[roguevalley]

95. They don't just disagree with people who have other opinions,

no matter how reasoned they are, they are out to annihilate them. They curse and yell and I find them vomitously stupid and mean. My mom and dad have handicapped parking tags for illnesses. They never abused it, ever. Penn and Teller can stick it. They are not now and to me, never were interesting or talented.

[symbolman]

12. I had to turn it off

the fat guy screams the word FUCK every 15 to 30 seconds, and my Two year old was starting to realize it wasn't "truck" as he'd been told.

Hell, I've even written in my book about Alaska, that the word FUCK is the state Bird, and should be sewn on the flag, etc, but THIS guy makes ME BLUSH..

It's the Vitriolic way he SHOUTS it, right in the middle of a sentence.. expulsive, LOUD.

Sometimes it's funny, other times, totally repulsive. :)

[JVS]

14. aren't these guys a magic act? wtf?

[WinkyDink]

16. I don't "get" them.. I find them spectacularly unfunny , unattractive, and boring.

[JHB]

22. Once upon a time, they were actually funny...

...when they didn't have a "name" yet and were begging to be noticed.

If they'd just stick with playing the shell game with orange tennis balls in clear plastic cups, I might still like them, but enoug bullshit "Bullshit" episodes have worn out their welcome...

[Philosoraptor]

21. Perhaps they'd change their nazi toon if they became disabled suddenly

It can happen to ANYONE.

[Swamp Rat]

27. My sentiments exactly! n/t

[Retrograde]

28. It just takes one wrong step...

or a second of inattention and they too can experience the myriad joys of less-than-ablebodiness. It's amazing how many little annoying things you start to notice when you are short the use of a limb. The architecture schools that require their students to spend time getting around in a wheelchair, or simulating other disabilities, are doing a good thing IMHO: even now that I'm mostly recovered I still find my self asking "Whose brilliant idea was it to put that totally gratuitous set of steps there?"

[slampoet]

54. you ever notice how vulnerable the kneecaps of people over 6 foot tall are?

Especially grifter wannabees?

[trumad]

24. Well hell---that's the reason I love handicapped people...

if not for them, I wouldn't find a place to park. ;-)

[bbernardini]

26. I have to give Penn & Teller credit for a few things...

1. They put on a great magic show, and are really good about interacting with their fans afterward (at least when I saw them).

2. Some of the "Bullshit" programs are right on the money. Some are completely illogical. These, of course, are usually the ones that are "anti" something of which I am "pro".

3. Penn has recorded with Kramer (formerly of Bongwater), who is a brilliant musician (albeit a crazier libertarian than Penn).

[bullwinkle428]

29. I, as a non-handicapped person, cannot think of a single incident

in my entire life where I've been "inconvenienced" in some way because of something in place which improves accessibility for the disabled. It sounds like these fuckers are totally put out over having to walk an extra 50 feet to get into a mall... :nopity:

[Marnieworld]

42. It's like getting annoyed when a legally blind person wears sunglasses on a cloudy day

I mean what kind of sociopath would do that?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/14/AR2006061402064.html

:rofl:

[slampoet]

48. People that Curb slants and ramps also help besides the disabled.......

Bicycle riders
Bicycle cops
Horse mounted police
Skaters (roller, in-line, and skateboard too)
Delivery people
Department of Parks
Firemen
Gigging musicians
Piano movers
Hot dog Vendors and anyone else who has food from a cart


And of course remember that ANYTHING you do to benefit the disabled also benefits the Elderly.
(Remember the elderly people are the ones who vote?)


And did anyone think that maybe if all the sidewalks had curbslants (which are cheaper to build and maintain than regular curbs) that we might have kids not riding their bikes into the street? Kids could ride their bikes around suburbs at a young age and start losing some of the weight they are picking up.

[jumpoffdaplanet]

31. They have some really strange blindspots

Walmart is good
Second hand smoke doesn't do anyone any harm
Global warming is a conjob
Now ADA is crap?

Unless their goal is to just pretend everything is bullshit.

Maybe that's it.

Because it's not making any sense that they would do this.

[sutz12]

32. The early shows were pretty good.

Even when they gored some of my oxen, they were at least a bit humorous.

I think they've jumped the shark. Now they seem to just be in it for the shock value.

Hey, I like the gratuitous nudity, though. :evilgrin:

[Jokerman]

35. I figured out their formula long ago...

They present their own biased, one-sided views as the only reasonable answer. Then they line up rational sounding experts on their side and the kookiest, far out nuts they can find to represent the other side.

Then they smugly proclaim that they are right about everything and everyone else is an idiot.

I tired of their "bullshit" after a couple of episodes.

[jollyreaper2112]

70. I just got a brainflash

On second thought, it's just ripping off Colbert. Anyway, imagine doing a show like this where the whole point is to be a wingnut. You start out on each topic dead serious, presenting rational and interesting critiques. Then you slowly progress to more and more extreme ideas, subtle-like, and by the end of the show you're sprouting scientologistic wingnuttery. It'd be damn tough to pull off but hell, I didn't even think Colbert was going to be able to make the whole right wing parody thing work, brilliant as I think he is. Turns out he's probably the only one who could. You'd need to find presenters with the perfect blend of earnest credulity and serious reporter gravitas. On third thought, this is also ripping off the Resident Expert a bit. Second Daily Show spin-off!

[minkyboodle]

93. ding ding ding

we have a winner. They do it all the time, sometimes I agree with their
views many times I do not but I never I repeat never consider that show to
be anything but one sided pre chosen biased arguments. Its meant to showcase
their view only and belittle what they've chosen as the wrong side. In a word
its Bullshit.
Minkyboodle

[Beelzebud]

36. Penn Jillette has been on Glenn Beck's show a few times.

That tells me all I need to know about him.

[progressoid]

37. I've seen a few of their shows...color me unimpressed.

What seemed like a great idea to debunk some mythology has turned into bithing and whining.

Not interested.

[gravity]

40. They make some interesting points

Instead of just dismissing right away, see the issue from another perspective. Everything in life has costs and benefits associated with it, and the best way to form an opinion on something is to look at both sides of the issue.

[IChing]

43. These people obviously agreed with you.

"Reich Committee for the scientific registering of serious hereditary and congenital illnesses"

was established in Hitler's Chancellory. This committee of three with medical and psychiatric expertise discussed euthanasia and, in 1939, drafted a prospective law calling for the "destruction of life unworthy of life". This prospective law would have provided legal sanction for "killing people suffering from serious congenital mental or physical 'malformation', because they required long-term care, aroused 'horror' in other people, and were situated on 'the lowest animal level'"

http://www.baycrest.org/Winter%202002/article4.htm

[gravity]

50. Ha!! you lost

for being first to make a Hitler reference.

Seriously, the video was showing the absurdities of the current ADA law, like loosening up the standards so the 1 in 6 Americans can now be considered disable. Also mandating braille in drive through ATMs is pretty stupid.

The point is that the law, which has good intentions, can be abused with lawsuits and unreasonable regulations for businesses. They argue that many businesses accommodate disabled folks just for the fact that they want their business, and that the laws aren't really needed.

Also the laws just make the disabled more of a liability, since they could possibly be sued under the new law, which actually offers less incentives to help them, or offer them jobs. There are unintended consequences associated with the law.

You don't have to agree with it, but it's absurd to compare that to genocide.

[BurtWorm]

53. Was the Civil Rights law also unnecessary?

I wonder what P&T would say about that.

[IChing]

56. "laws aren't really needed"

you're Kidding?


You always have great republican talking points in your posts
Putting the needs of business and corporations
over the common welfare of the people.


If you like Libertarian ideals so much
why don't you post on the Ron Paul forum?

[gravity]

60. Do have any evidence to prove contrary?

I'm not libertarian, but I like laws that are based on the grounds of reason, on top of good intentions. If something that has been legislated doesn't work as intended, than it should be reform to addressed this.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

84. Have you ever stopped to think...

that it's easier for the ATM manufacturers to simply produce machines with braille on all of the buttons?

[BurtWorm]

52. What were the interesting points they made?

I did not see the program, but my understanding about the ADA is that it is a civil rights law designed to create access for people with disabilities. If mandating wider doorways on public buildings is "legislated compassion," then isn't outlawing segregation of "the races" the same thing?

[gravity]

58. Well you can see it here

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3BeB7OS-hL8&mode=related&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=c9AuVnczV4k&mode=related&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=c9AuVnczV4k&mode=related&search=

The argument is that whether you like it or not, having a physical disability makes you a second class citizens by the laws of physics, not just by personal prejudice. While reasonable accommodations should be made, there is a limit of how far you go in trying to accommodate everyone.

[BurtWorm]

61. Really? People with disabilities are second class citizens by the laws of physics?

We should make human laws based on our interpretations of the moral implications of physical laws? (I.e., physical laws say people with disabilities are second class citizens, therefore, people with disabilities ought to be second class citizens?)

[gravity]

63. No, it's saying that there are limits of what you can do to help the disabled

They are never going to have it as good as someone who is able bodied. If you are blind, then you aren't going to have the same opportunities as someone who can see.

[CBGLuthier]

64. Are you listening to what you are saying?

Second class citizens. Never have it as good.

Oh poor poor pitiful cripples huh.

You have absolutely zero undertanding of the disabled. There is some irony in your mention of the blind.

[gravity]

68. We all have a disability for one thing or another

Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, and has to get by with them in life. Some people naturally have it worst off than others for reasons beyond their's or anyone elses control, like being blind.

I don't think anyone should be treated as second class citizens under the law. At the same time, we shouldn't have to bend over backwards to accommodate everybody. There is always going to be a limit for what you can do help people out.

[BurtWorm]

69. Define bending over backwards for people with disabilities.

What in the ADA goes too far?

[BurtWorm]

65. Does the ADA exceed the limits of what "we" can do to help the disabled?

How do we know where the limits of what we can do are?

[kiahzero]

73. Reasonable accommodations are all the ADA requires.

If an accommodation is an undue hardship, the law doesn't require it.

[gravity]

76. That's a good point

I am not really against the idea of sound disability laws, but I just think there should be some changes. I don't think the best way to enforce the law is by filing lawsuits with punitive damages. I also think that disability categories are too broad, like drug addiction and certain mental illnesses, which can undermine the cases of more legitimate disabilities.

There just needs to be a balance between business owners and people with disabilities. When one side has too much power, then the system is going to be abused.

[BurtWorm]

77. "When one side has too much power, then the system is going to be abused."

You know which side has "too much power" now, right?

In my experience, people who object to the ADA tend not to understand what disability even is, much less what is actually in the law. Certain businesses have used this ignorance to attack the law and excuse themselves from their social responsility to this rather large segment of the population. It is no different from businesses claiming "minorities" forced them into suffering undue burdens (such as not being able to ignore black job candidates or customers) after the Civil Rights law was passed.

[fishwax]

78. so those with disabilities have too much power?

There just needs to be a balance between business owners and people with disabilities. When one side has too much power, then the system is going to be abused.

:shrug:

If lawsuits shouldn't be used for enforcement, then what should?

[BearSquirrel2]

85. They went well beyond ...

They went well beyond the idea that reasonable accommodations should be made. What they said was that no one should be legally required to make accommodations, people hate the handicapped because of the accommodations and that there would be more accommodations if only they would get rid of the law.

It is a bit like saying that the south would have ended Jim Crow because proprietors would have chased after the black dollar.

BULLSHIT!!!

[Marnieworld]

41. I'm sure their next show will depict them in wheelchairs and finding access everywhere right?

How do you have the audacity to produce a piece with these assertions without taking the time to test them? If anyone was placed in a wheelchair for a week and saw what it was like I'm sure they'd realize a thing or two about how the world is set up vs. what they actually need. So arrogant to think you have it all figured out on paper.

Sometimes I agree with them, probably the anti-war on drugs, anti-theocracy stuff but just reading this pisses me off enough not to watch them again or pay to see them. What asswipes. :grr:

[slampoet]

51. Amen. I was on crutches twice in a year once. Changed my point of view......

...especially when I figured out that if i had been in a wheelchair, that i would have had to ask for 3/4 of my classes at college to be moved to other rooms.

Also i would have had to give up on meeting 1/2 of my friends in their rooms, including the woman i lost my virginity to.

[Marnieworld]

55. well thank god you made it to her room!

A perfect arguement for access if there ever was one! :hi:

[slampoet]

45. Everyone will become handicapped if they live long enough, especially Tall dudes like Penn

How many times have i seen 60-70 something tall guys in wheelchairs? hundreds?


If you are over 6 foot the knees have a way of giving out.


And i ain't gonna push Penn's heavy ass around. Are You?

[Richard Steele]

47. From the four episodes I've seen, I have to agree.

Really no desire to make it five.

[salib]

57. Anyone see their Bullshit episode on 9/11?

They basically went to what they felt were the most outlandish "conspiracy theories" and said they were "bullshit." Based on that, they said the 9/11 official story is basically the truth. That is when I gave up on them.

Not because I do or do not believe anything in the 9/11 report and official explanation. Just that Penn and Teller showed me their true colors and pedantic formula at that time.

Much had be said to describe this formula here, but I think there is one aspect that has not been explored. They always frame the argument as the need to prove a negative. I.e., set up a strawman that is a negative argument (e.g., prove that what is said in the 9/11 explanation is false, prove that ADA does not have extreme and unreasonable examples, prove that there are no simple followers to the environmental movement). When it cannot be "proven", it is then Bullshit. Ergo!

What simpletons they are.

Probably the same logical gymnastics (pathetic though they are) that led them to Libertarianism.

[salib]

62. Now that I think of it this formula could indeed be a common Libertarian path

Simply look for the negative argument on anything "liberal":
- The "welfare queen"
- The inefficient Gov't worker
- The drug addicted dole recipient
- The lazy janitor (did not get ahead)
- The "not brave enough to go out and get any paydirt" rest of us
- etc.
- etc.
- etc.

Gets pretty easy, once you head down that narrow (pedantic) path. Religion of the selfish and/or self-absorbed, I think.

[slampoet]

71. The lazy janitor (did not get ahead) Why is it..........

Why is it that i never hear anyone say what a hard working janitor gets promoted to?

[MethuenProgressive]

81. They did a great job calling bullshit on the 9/11 conspiracy nutjobs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcrF346sS_I

They certainly sure did an excellent job on this topic.

[salib]

82. Exactly!

They picked the strawman, then challenge anyone to prove the negative. Works every time.

[IChing]

88. Exactly! Just like they debunked Global Warming.

In Episode 13, season 1 of Penn & Teller: Bullshit! they try to prove the global
warming crisis, among other things, was created by the out of control imagination
of hysterical hippies and environmentalists. This is why the episode is titled
"Environmental Hysteria".

We would just like to point out that Penn Jillette is a research fellow of the ExxonMobil
and Industry funded CATO institute which has strong minarchist leanings.
This gives Penn Jillete a conflict of interest when it comes to any topic
that might require government regulation.


Penn Jillette
H.L. Mencken Research Fellow and Cato institute
Penn Jillette, H.L. Mencken research fellow, is the louder,
bigger half of the magic/comedy team Penn & Teller.
He and Teller co-host a new series on Showtime that looks
to debunk junk science, scares and scams with reason and logic.
Jillette writes the "Final Word" column for Regulation magazine.
http://www.cato.org/people/jillette.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchist

In civics, minarchism, sometimes called minimal statism or small government
, is the view that the size, role and influence of government in a free society
should be minimal — only large enough to protect the liberty and property
of each individual. Many minarchists consider themselves part of the libertarian tradition,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchist

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Penn_and_Teller:_Bullshit%21

Scientist debunk Penn and Teller
http://www.logicalscience.com/skeptics/bullsheit.html

[Blue_Tires]

100. great links

thanks

[file83]

91. It's a magic trick. The "illusion" of an argument when there really is none.

Like you said, works all the time.

[Little Wing]

59. That show is like someone holding a book to your head and pounding

it with a sledgehammer trying to make you learn something. Totally obnoxious.

[AnnInLa]

66. Saw their act in Vegas 11 days ago

Friend, son and I went to Vegas a few weeks ago, and caught their act at the Rio on April 23rd. They were OK, did a bit where they reminded the audience about how important it is not to lose their constitutional rights. Had a huge Bill of Rights scroll on stage. Also did a bit with a huge American flag, which they proceeded to use in a magic stunt, doing all sorts of things to the flag (gasp), but the flag magically reappeared, flying from a pole, at which point P&T saluted proudly.

They used various people from the audience in their act, and my son had to go onstage and read from a joke book. He was so nervous, said he had not read aloud in years, and was afraid he would forget how to read. He did fine. They did interact with the audience after the show, posing for quite a few pictures, shaking hands, taking a long time with adoring fans.

Not an act I would pay to see again, unfortunately...it was funny in places, but slow.

[jollyreaper2112]

67. they're sort of like south park

Seen a few of their shows, not impressed. Stereotypes often contain some truth. People in general have a problem when someone they agree with on four points out of five has to disagree on that fifth point. Some have tried to paint libs as especially guilty of it. While it's true that I've seen that sort of thing here and in other places, I've seen a ton of it from conservatives, too. It's a human weakness, not a left/right thing.

Ok, having said that... South Park and Bullshit are a lot alike, they make it their business to attack sacred cows and cherished notions. It's human nature to like it when the other side is getting a drubbing but to think it's inappropriate when your own problems are then held up for inspection.

South Park loves being contrarian. It's easy to take shots at the government and religion. So when that got old they started up on the environment and acted like there wasn't a problem. They also did a show promoting the idea of big business and making it out like small businesses suck. The problem, of course, is that their premise fails when held to scrutiny. The environment is in danger. Now if they were going after people who were hypocritical in their support of environmental causes, if they were ridiculing ideas promoted as environmental but were actually harmful, that's a factual basis for critique.

George Carlin actually has gone through a similar failing. He was a brilliant comedian. His New York Voices routine was golden. He could take big ideas and small ones and roll them into a thought-provoking routine. But he changed over the years. The difference is that when he was younger, he was more of an advocate for change. It seemed like his humor had a heart and a message. As he got older, his humor seemed to become more mean-spirited. Here's a clip about him from wiki:

Carlin openly communicates in his shows and in his interviews that his purpose for existence is entertainment, that he is "here for the show". He acknowledges that this is a very selfish thing, especially since he includes large human catastrophes as entertainment.

In a late-1990s interview with Art Bell, he remarked about his view of human life: "I think we're already 'circling the drain' as a species, and I'd love to see the circles get a little faster and a little shorter."

In the same interview, he recounts his experience of a California earthquake in the early-1970s as: "...an amusement park ride. Really, I mean it's such a wonderful thing to realize that you have absolutely no control... and to see the dresser move across the bedroom floor unassisted... is just exciting." Later he summarizes: "I really think there's great human drama in destruction and nature unleashed and I don't get enough of it."

I have to disagree with that. There's an interesting quote from Max Brooks talking about lies in his book World War Z. A character in the novel says (paraphrasing) "Not all lies are bad. Of course there are bad lies, the lies told by government, the lies told by corporations and the media, the lies that keep you in ignorance and lull you while terrible things are happening. But there are also good lies, the lies you tell yourself when all seems lost. These are the lies that keep you alive, keep you going when you want to give up. That kind of lie is hope."

I don't believe in any god or divine plan but I do think we need to believe in something. I'm not saying a religion but a philosophy, an ideal, something to work towards, progress, a future. If we reject all those things then what the hell are we doing here? May as well just shoot ourselves in the head or give in to Republican-style hedonism. Sell out the country, fuck little boys, start wars, it's not a problem unless you're caught and they'll still never be able to prove it in court. Who wants to live in a world like that?

Carlin reminds me of Mark Twain, a brilliant wit who has lived too long, seen too much, given up on most of it, and now turns his mind towards a bitter deconstruction of the misery he sees around him. Carlin used to have hope. I miss the old him. I hope he can find himself again.

[minkyboodle]

99. brilliant post

Just wanted to say I really agree and appreciate your post. Thanks for
taking to the time to respond to this and also thanks for referencing my
current favorite book of the moment, World War Z. Its amazing where one
finds truths these days.
Minkyboodle

[Monk06]

74. They should change their act so they're both mute. All mime all the time !!!! n/t

[Mabus]

79. I caught a marathon of Bullshit last year

and that's when I decided they were full of it. Actually I had set aside time to watch the marathon but gave up after the first one about bottled water. They contended that all bottled water was a scam and that people were buying and drinking water from municipal water supplies (some from ironically named cities). What they failed to mention were the different types of filtration that are used to clean the water and the fact that some bottled water goes through multiple processes to remove impurities.

[ryanmuegge]

87. The show's funny and entertaining, but I agree with you.

I don't take it too seriously on an intellectual level.


And, yes, libertarians are idiots. Ironically, though, they assume intellectual superiority as a foregone conclusion...at least the ones I've spoken to have.

[Paladin]

89. I Gave Up On These Clowns With Their Gun Control Episode

It was nothing more than an extended blowjob of the NRA, without any pretense towards presenting a balanced viewpoint. Just what we need---another brain-dead spewing of right-wing talking points......

[nam78_two]

92. Yup-libertarian loons

thats what they are...

[Lars39]

94. If there are handicapped parking spaces empty,

there's a good chance that there's one less handicapped person *alive* to park there, given the wonderful state of our healthcare "system".
Or there's one less safety net in place to ensure that a handicapped person can live in their own abode for as long as possible.

[bbgrunt]

96. My favorite quote: "Libertarians are anarchists who want police

protection from their slaves" Kim S. Robinson.

[ryanmuegge]

97. Awesome quote.

And it's basically true.

[Chovexani]

98. The first season was awesome

When they were calling bullshit on actual fraud and crankery. Unfortunately P&T decided the show would be a better forum for their brand of crazy ass knee-jerk libertarianism somewhere around the environmentalism episode in season 2, and the shark? She was jumped.