"It can't happen here."

[nadinbrzezinski]

We keep hearing this from many people on DU. It is almost a mantra, and religious belief. I mean, this is the United States of America, chosen by God and with a manifest destiny for greatness.(And sadly Winthrop did not mean it this way, his new Canaan was not this United States) This is the American myth speaking, we are special. And truth be told, you guys get insulted any time any comparisons to Nazi Germany are done, it is predictable.

We have heard you speaking about how we should be ashamed, I mean SURVIVORS would be horrified by the comparison.

Here is a piece of news. I know a survivor, she is a sweet old lady. She was a dancer before her time at Auschwitz, where she lost her family, and danced for one Doctor Menguele. To your horror, not mine, I know history... she's been comparing this country to the early stages of Nazi Germany for a while now. Mostly the echos are too damn familiar to her.

My dad, he survived the Holocaust. One day he did tell me that George Bush reminded him of somebody else you've seen and the laws passed during the Bush Administration scared him. No he did not know the full horrific details of German Laws. After all as a young teen he heard of them distantly... but knew they were bad news. And now he only hears the echo of history and damn it recognizes it.

So here I am to tell you that the echoes you are hearing, and you feel so insulted are real. I know most of you will not believe it. You are too much in love with the American Myth, and of course the US could never become a fascist state or get involved in genocide, never mind the US has gotten involved in Genocide, remember the Indian wars? The only good Indian is a dead Indian? So you think we could not do that again?

I know I cannot reach you.

Suffice it to say...

to quote Sinclair Lewis

When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross -

I highly recommend that all of you go and get the book titled "IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE," and chiefly read it. Yes, it is a work of fiction, but sadly that is a dystopia that seems increasingly real.

As to the Arizona Law... to me it was a funny reaction, either clean my guns or gather my passport and well, LEAVE before it is too late. For the moment will continue to study history and see them fucking echos that to some of you, enamored of the American myth, not American History, will never see. And yes, speak loudly against that atrocity, but realize that things can only get worst... yes that is very possible... and perhaps being a child of a survivor the chief lesson is... KNOW WHEN TO FUCKING RUN!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

1. I'm afraid it IS happening here. Nazi America in Arizona first

I never thought I'd see the day that police could demand "your papers please"
to someone who "looks wrong".

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. It depends on what DOJ

does... but they need to act FAST.

[mmonk]

41. So far, this DOJ has been too busy defending the indefensible.

Hopefully, they will get their heads out of their collective asses.

[lib2DaBone]

137. I agree. The DOJ needs to act....

However, the DOJ didn't act on Torture, it didn't act on Medical Marijuana, It didnt act on Derivitives and Wall Street Fraud.. it didn't act on.... nevermind.. it no longer matters....

[DesertFlower]

32. i live here and i'm appalled.

the news said 70% of arizonans like the new law.

[Richard Steele]

2. By the time you think it might be "happening here", it already happened. K&R

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. I've had this conversation for years

My hope, is that the DOJ will act... depends on what they do... on this.

But they need to strike fast. and this will end up in front of the USSC. Another echo... this violates the fourth and fourteenth amendments, bet that like Bloody Kansas this will be fought by AZ on Tenth Amendment grounds

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

3. I recommended this thread, but someone unrecommended right after

I hope everyone will help recommend this thread, because we need to wake up before
we become Nazi America.

Read "It can't happen here". I did.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Well some folks get too scared

about things like this

[laughingliberal]

9. Some are scared

Others are pretty comfortable with their own lives and see no reason to be concerned. After all, the trains run on time, don't they?

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Now that is a comparison that don't work

nobody will claim AMTRAK is THAT efficient

:-)

Sorry, a little levity helps cut down the tension

[laughingliberal]

12. Lol. American version of trains running on time = My 401k is growing. nt

[Cleita]

61. Some Americans think it's unpatriotic to point out when our government

is going astray, but it's those who pass laws like these who are unpatriotic. They are undermining the very foundation that American was created on.

[wolfgangmo]

69. Revolt in 2100

By RA Heinlein. It is a story that describes a religious dictatorship in the US.

Sounds predictive to me. I wonder if time travelers regularily kidnap authors?

[bertman]

102. Thanks for the recommendation, wolfgangmo. I have often thought the same thing when

reading Frank Herbert's "Dune".

Change some geographical references, spice to oil, a planet that has become mostly desert.

[GSanon]

112. time travelers regularily kidnap authors?

no... I bet they take the trip willfully.

[nightgaunt]

168. The Handmaid's Tale is much closer and more relevent

Margaret Atwood & it came out in 1986--just missed the anniversary of "1984." The film came out in 1990. Worth reading and watching then studying which lead me to my present conclusions that there really is a cabal of the most powerful to turn the USA into some kind of Christian-fascist hive. Right now they have us all by the short hairs. Only the looming economic calamity is waiting to hit us and then they will swoop in to "save" us from Anarchy and chaos. I could use some more Anarchy in may life.

[Skittles]

7. you'd never hear me saying that

I am convinced that people who say that are ignorant AND have very large egos

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Or scared, never forget that one

[Odin2005]

11. K&R

[flyingobject]

13. "With New Law, Outlook for Arizona Tourism Not Good;"

Perhaps a little financial punishment will help:

With New Law, Outlook for Arizona Tourism Not Good‎
April 24, Examiner
...
Kristen Jarnagin, spokesperson for the Arizona Hotel & Lodging Association, noted that the state’s tourism industry is deeply concerned about the controversial signing of SBill1070: “The tourism industry was not considered or consulted in any process of developing this legislation, but is certain to experience the unintended consequences of the economic backlash. As we’ve seen many times in recent years, tourism is being used as leverage for a political issue with no direct connection to our industry.”

Furthermore, “instead of driving our state’s economy even further into decline and punishing the 200,000 families who rely on tourism for their livelihoods, we would ask all Arizonans to support the diverse and global workforce that comprises the tourism industry and to invite friends, family, associations and businesses to experience Arizona firsthand.”

Even so, meeting professionals are understandably wary of the new law’s implications. “This law will have a profound, negative impact on the Arizona meetings industry,” commented Randall Whatley, President at Atlanta-based Cypress Media Group. “Why would image-conscious corporate executives subject their business to complaints from customers, suppliers, employees, and board members who oppose this law and its negative associations?”

Or as Jenise Fryatt, Co-Owner/Director of Marketing at Los Angeles area event production company, Icon Presentations, put it, “Why book a conference in a state where attendees could be harassed, when in every other state in the country, this is illegal?”
http://www.examiner.com/x-12688-Newark-Meetings-and-Conventions-Examiner~y2010m4d24-With-New-Law-Outlook-for-Arizona-Tourism-Not-Good

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Well sorry for them, but I am not going to spend a red cent

and unfortunately this will be part of the pressure

[flyarm]

27. the tourist industry was never consulted when Obama signed Drill Baby drill in Fla either..

and Fla is a whole state that depends on tourism..can't you just see our white beaches, slick and black black???..and our porpoise's slimy with oil? And our off shore fishing industry shut down..and our Birds and turtles sick and dying..hell we will be able to turn our beach lights on..that so many of us Dems fought to keep them off near our beahes..because with one spill.the turtles won't be able to lay eggs and sit on them, to hatch the fragile eggs.

seems dems only get pissed when repigs do the nasty..when it is dems that do it..crickets!...or excuses.


But don't worry about the tourists..it would only destroy our eco system with a big oil spill!

[Chulanowa]

106. I frequently visited Dauphin Island

On its south shore, you can see numerous oil derricks out there. In fact, one of them washed up near a spot I used to fish from, after Katrina. They've been out there since forever, and not once have Dauphin Island's white beaches become "slick and black black" nor have the porpoises become "slimy with oil." In fact, all that one Derrick did was plow up some sand and drop some metal debris. The only thing I've ever seen the shores caked with is ankle-thick sargassum.

The turtles won't be able to sit on their eggs?

Sir, I offer the opinion that you haven't got the first flying fucking clue what in the goddamned hell you're yarbling on about, and should perhaps take a valium and go fall asleep on the toilet.

For you to compare a fucking racist police state law to a problem that in reality only exists in your fevered dreams, in a shitty attempt to play the "DYER, THEY'RE BOTH THE SAME!" bullshit is ludicrous, disingenuous, and you should stop while you're behind.

[flyarm]

138. I guess you fucking missed this ..right???????????

Oil slick "the size of Hong Kong" at Gulf of Mexico well: 42,000 gallons a day spilling into Gulf


“Right now we don’t have anyone on scene actively engaged (in spill mitigation) due to the weather."

An oil slick covering 400sq miles is threatening a slow-motion catastrophe for the Gulf of Mexico’s delicate marine life, with 42,000 gallons (160,000 litres) a day now gushing from an uncapped well after a rig explosion.

Two days after declaring that there was no leak and that oil on the surface was residue from on board the Deepwater Horizon drilling platform that burst into a fireball on Tuesday, officials revealed that the slick was coming from the seabed and was now 25 times the size it was on Friday.

“It’s 1,000 barrels emanating from 5,000ft below the surface,” said Rear-Admiral Mary Landry, of the US Coast Guard, who is overseeing the emergency response. “Absolutely, this is a very serious oil spill.”

BP, which leased the rig, said last week that it was doing everything in its power to contain the spill and resolve the situation “as rapidly, safely and effectively as possible”, using underwater robots, 700 personnel, five aircraft, 32 vessels, and nearly 200 miles of floating booms...

Florida, Mississippi, Alabama and Texas have been warned of the threat of the slick coming ashore...

The spill comes at a sensitive time, with President Obama moving last month to allow oil drilling closer to shore.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/artic...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

BP says it may take 2-3 Months to stop Leak ..leaking 1,000 barels of oil a day!!!!!!!

April 25 (Bloomberg) -- BP Plc said it may take at least two or three months to drill a relief well to stop a 1,000- barrel-a-day oil leak into the Gulf of Mexico after a drilling rig caught fire and sank last week. The company is also trying to shut the well's valve with robots.

The oil spill, which covers 600 square miles (1,554 square kilometers), won't reach a shoreline within the next three days, said Charlie Henry, a scientific support coordinator with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration during a teleconference today. Henry said it isn't possible to give estimates beyond three days.

Swiss drilling contractor, Transocean Ltd., is shipping in two rigs to stop the leak with the first scheduled to arrive tomorrow and the second May 2. The companies may need a relief well if the blowout valve isn't activated. A relief well would intercept the leakage and inject a heavy fluid to prevent oil or gas from escaping, London-based exploration company BP said in a separate statement. That would allow the well to be sealed.

"The relief well as described could take several months," Doug Suttles, BP's chief operating officer of exploration and production, said on the teleconference.

The response group, including BP and Transocean, began using remote operated vehicles at 8 a.m. local time today to try to switch on the blowout value, part of a 50-feet tall and 18- feet wide housing on the sea floor. It may take 24 to 36 hours to complete the work, Suttles said.

State of Louisiana

In some sensitive areas, Louisiana state authorities have begun installing booms, a type of floating net used to trap and gather any spilled oil on the water, as a precaution. Of the 600 square mile spill, 97 percent is considered oil sheen, or thin layer, above the water.

With more than 1,000 people working on the operation, costs total "several million dollars" so far, said Coast Guard Rear Admiral Mary Landry, who is overseeing the rescue and cleanup.

Oil is leaking out in two places at the site, said David Nicholas, a spokesman in London for BP, which is responsible for the cleanup. Thunderstorms, rain and rough seas are hampering efforts to clean up the spillage, according to a statement today from the Coast Guard, BP and Transocean.

The accident took place off the coast of Louisiana, where exploration was being carried out on the Macondo field. BP, the biggest oil producer in the Gulf of Mexico, had leased the Deepwater Horizon rig from Transocean for drilling.

The spill is about 30 miles from the coast, Landry said. It's unknown when the well can be capped, she said. The 1989 oil spill by the Exxon Valdez dumped 260,000 barrels near Alaska.

MORE...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/0...


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


That oil leak will reach the Louisiana coast in three days. It will be a major ecological disaster.


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Doug Suttles, chief operating officer - BP Exploration... It could take hours or it could take months to stop a 42,000-gallon-a-day oil leak polluting the Gulf of Mexico at the site of a wrecked drilling platform. Whether the environmental threat grows many times bigger depends on whether the oil company can turn the well completely off...

Crews are using robot submarines to activate valves at the well head in hopes of cutting off the leak, which threatens the Gulf Coast's fragile ecosystem of shrimp, fish, birds and coral. If the effort fails, they'll have to start drilling again.

The submarine work will take 24 to 36 hours, Doug Suttles, chief operating officer for BP Exploration and Production, said Sunday afternoon.
"I should emphasize this is a highly complex operation being performed at 5,000 feet below the surface and it may not be successful," he said.


http://www.newser.com/article/d9fad0oo1/complex-underwa...




xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


That would be British Patroleum..we are not privy to the oil that is now spilling into our gulf ....get that..do you fucking get that????????

and in the Gulf tthere are not big enoug waves o break up the fucking oil..do you get that as well?????????

And the little fact that Obama just signed off to allow drilling off both coasts of Florida..approx 2/3rd the way down the entire state Of Florida..You missed that right?????????

What no republican has been able to accomplish through the diligence and fight they got from DEMOCRATS..and ecologists...You missed that right?????????

[Chulanowa]

144. Are you aware of the difference between "a given" and "an accident"?

Seriously. Your argument is that the existence of oil derricks guarantees that all of them will undergo catastrophic destruction.

It's a risk. And I'm on hte fence as to whether the risk is "worth it" - but your reaction, to start screaming and yanking your cock over what a fucking devil Obama is because you assume the worst is fucking stupid.

[flyarm]

158. #1 I am a woman, I don't have a cock to yank.#2 many of the Oil rigs were destroyed and spilled oil

during Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, and Ivan in the Guf of Mexico..

#3 I guess you don't understand or realize that one such rig was found almost 800 miles from its original place after Hurricane Rita and then was hit by a ship some time after the hurricane ( sorry I don't remember if it was weeks or months but 2 months rings a bell to me! I will not look it up for you..do your own research on it!

Go to the Florida legislature web site and read about it!

#4 Hurricane Katrina was a Cat 5 when it went through the Gulf and passed me ..on the Gulf coast ..where several new rigs are proposed by Team Obama!

#5 Katrina destroyed well over 100 of the rigs in the Gulf of Mexico ( something like 184 ..i don't remember the exact number..look it up!) ..when it had already downgraded to a Cat 3 hurricane...and spilled an enormous amount of Oil into the Gulf.



These rIgs act like a reef to marine life..so much of that marine life is destroyed with a spill..or ACCIDENT..

IT IS NO ACCIDENT WHEN WE THE PEOPLE ARE TOLD THERE IS NO DANGER OR THESE RIGS ARE SAFE..only to learn after such ACCIDENT..they have no way to stop a leak ..and are using means never developed or used before to try to figure out how the stop the leaking of oil into our eco system! And the oil companies are allowed to not disclose and hide this info the the American people!

sorry to disappoint you...I am COCKLESS!

[axollot]

141. It bothers me as someone who currently lives in FL as a Dem and as someone who gives a shit about

our planet. What has currently happened in the Gulf should some how make sure we wont ever see the rigs off Florida shores.

Been crying a lot lately over oil spills. The ship that rammed the Great Barrier Reef last month, the reminder that the Exxon Valdez mess has never been cleaned and the recent off-shore rig fire that has 300g a day in oil spilling out of it's burnt sunken rig.
So yeah I def worry about more of that type of disaster here.

Cheers m8
Sandy

[varelse]

113. I wouldn't travel there now

I have no way to prove that I was born in the US.

[Flying Dream Blues]

136. Sorry for those who are in opposition who will be harmed, but

let them work to change it. This is how the political system is supposed to work. I'm officially on boycott until it changes.

[MuseRider]

15. Really?

"We keep hearing this from many people on DU. It is almost a mantra, and religious belief. I mean, this is the United States of America, chosen by God and with a manifest destiny for greatness.(And sadly Winthrop did not mean it this way, his new Canaan was not this United States) This is the American myth speaking, we are special. And truth be told, you guys get insulted any time any comparisons to Nazi Germany are done, it is predictable."

You are really hearing that from so many that you are concerned? I have been away too long, this place does not even look familiar if that is the case. Of course it can happen here. We are NOT special, in fact we are very ordinary. Maybe not ordinary, there are far too many wackos now to even consider us ordinary. As long as people have their heads in the sand thinking how exceptional and special we are then the thing we most fear can happen here. With so many heads in the sand or busy feeling special it will happen even faster because there are not enough heads being used to stop it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. There are people here who do beleive in American Exceptionalism

indeed.

They are loud enough and tonight I have found them.

It is not that high percentage, but they exist, and they have always been here actually. This is what we drink with social science classes.

Many of the true horrors of US history are covered ONLY in College and only sometimes

Here is an example...

You know of John Smith and Pohacontas and the story of Thanks Giving. That is the American Myth.

The part that schools rarely cover is that the first slaves to come to the new world were young boys and girls from London, to work at the Tobacco plantations. Of the first 100 we know that only oh four survived to adulthood from early Colonial papers. We really do not cover very well that before African Slaves we were already bringing English, Irish, Scottish slaves... some of whom were political prisoners. Yes Jamestown was the original Gulag...

(Doing quite a bit of research into the history of the labor movement and right now looking at colonial times)

[flyingobject]

16. what next, identification tattoos?

May the state go bankrupt financially as it has done morally.

This law isn't about immigration, its about racism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Don't give them any ideas...

[pinboy3niner]

17. I don't see the sky falling YET . . .

But this subject IS certainly worth discussing. There is an apt expression, often attributed to Thomas Jefferson: "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."

K&R :thumbsup:

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. The echos are just echos... but sometimes echos become real

And here is where this is going.

This is a violation of fourth and fourteenth amendment. The state will defend this on grounds of the Tenth. Another echo of history... Kansas.

As they say, history never repeats itself. But there are patterns, something that American historians tend to reject... but lord I am finding them now.

[Enthusiast]

21. If media fairness is not restored

it WILL happen here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. It alrady is happening here

not yet too obvious or horrific, but it is happening here.

[Enthusiast]

34. Oh yes. nt

[treestar]

23. It really can't

The Constitution is a marvelous thing. This law will be shot down in the courts. That's the essence of civilization. No wars needed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. And that is the heart of American Exceptionalism

thanks for a perfect example.

Yes it can happen here... we are not that special... in fact it can happen anywhere.

It won't only if we the people act collectively... but if we don't. Not only it can... it will. History has patterns... we are not that special.

[laughingliberal]

25. None so blind as those...

As long as that 401k is recovering, all is well.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Ah them trains running in time

but I don't blame people... the American creed includes that sense of we are special. It is in the water from the moment we go take our first social science classes or turn on the tv.

Hell the History channel series America: The Story of Us, will be a feast for the eyes in exceptionalism... I am debating, watch it or not for that reason.

[laughingliberal]

29. It is so ingrained people do not stop to question their own beliefs

I am certain most of the German people did not believe it was happening there, either. There were those who saw it coming but they were ignored. I wonder if others accused them of wanting a pony?

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Yes they did...

We do have a historical record on it.

[sabrina 1]

128. Yes, LL, others did accuse those who expressed concerns

over what was happening in Germany of 'wanting a pony'. I wish I could find it now, but a journal kept by a University Professor in Germany throughout the period that culminated in the horrors, explained it all as it happened.

One thing I remember him saying was that laws would be passed and people were 'uncomfortable' with them, and they would discuss them as people do, with concern. But others would brush aside the concerns, justifying them often. But he said, at least in the beginning they did discuss things. Then, he said, over time, people you had thought of as friends, no longer wanted to talk about what was happening.

He said they all were waiting for some 'big event', something that would 'mobilize people'. But, as he said, that is NOT how it happened! And this was the sentence that stuck in my mind after reading his journal:

It happened incrementally There was no one event that could mobilize people, warn them that they needed to act. And then there were the constant 'celebrations', patriotic rallies to go to etc. that kept people busy.

And by the time people might have acted, it was far too late.

And that is why when we see a bill like this, it needs to be stopped at the beginning, before it is accepted, and they move on, bolder because of their success, to the next 'step'.

That professor felt guilty that they had not seen what was coming, even though many were concerned. But, he empasized that there really was no way they could have foreseen the horrors that would occur in THEIR country.

[treestar]

44. It's not just us

Would it really happen in the UK or Australia or even, believe it or not, Germany, today? There is much more global awareness. If someone sneezes in Slovenia, it's all over the internet. How would such a regime get started when people could be in touch with outside of the country in its early beginnings?

and you know, we just might be special in one or two things: every country is. Our Constitution is our great thing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

156. Given this country started with slave labor, no you silly not black

white, as well as convict labor, and that we have a tradition of cheap labor, etnic cleansing and a few other things... no, we are not that special. We are like any other country that's ever existed.

Sorry.

I am not a subscriber to American, or for that matter, ANYBODY ELSE's exceptionalism... or manifest destiny.

You may call that a professional hazard.

And until the US faces it's own dirty bits in it's history and it's own echoes from history. Perhaps you don't get this, but this law is an echo of AMERICAN HISTORY going back a LONG TIME... like Jamestown in the 1600's.

[treestar]

45. Everyone who disagrees with you is rich?

Careful, you are being what the right wing accuses us of.

[laughingliberal]

95. It's a reference to an earlier post in the thread

where I remarked on the phenomena of overlooking encroaching fascism as long as the trains run on time. I believe the American version of the trains running on time is the 401k is growing. It's about apathy.

[treestar]

42. It's not absolute but it is close

we are special is some way - not just us, other countries too, but be have a much lesser chance of it happening than in some other places.

The way we are made up of immigrants - so many different ethnic groups, allows us to be more sensitive to any such developments.

If we survived Bushco after 911 we can survive almost anything.

There won't even be a racial or ethnic majority once whites are no longer one.

[laughingliberal]

96. If by surviving Bushco after 9/11 I suppose if drawing breath qualifies as 'surviving' we did

but our Constitution has taken a huge hit especially in the area or the 4th amendment and those policies have not changed with the change of administration.

[Hardrada]

101. Don't count your chickens yet.

Unless you are going to see your doctor.

[Dappleganger]

165. Look at today's SCOTUS.

Who wants to place bets on THEM protecting the Constitution?

I sure as hell wouldn't. The court makeup of today is poised to overturn Roe v Wade if presented with the right case. :(

[cali]

36. Actually, it can happen anywhere- Constitution or not

but that doesn't mean that it is happening now.

[no_hypocrisy]

40. Weimar Germany had a functioning democracy with a Constitution.

Hitler suspended the Constitution more or less with the Enabling Act after the Reichstag Fire, citing a crisis. The suspension became permanent.

If * had stayed in power and another crisis like 9-11 happened, I'd have my money on the same game plan as the Third Reich.

[treestar]

43. But Weimar Germany didn't have as diverse a population.

The US has so much diversity, if it starts pounding on one group, others identify and don't support it. Even right after 911 we were defending Muslims and they were a scapegoated group - but the rule of law held on. And then in 8 years we elected a President with Hussein as his middle name!

We are a safe country - we do a lot of bad things abroad, but one thing I will say for our system - it is stable and it works. If it didn't, Muslims would have ended up in camps after 911.

[no_hypocrisy]

48. All good points.

[wolfgangmo]

71. Ummmm.

Not to be too picky but ... Muslims did end up in camps after 9/11

[dixiegrrrrl]

73. WW 1 started in a country because of too much diversity.

A Yugslov nationalist shot the Archduke,inflamed by conflicts in Serbia over nationalistic disagreements.
Same issue was repeated in multi cultural Germany in WW 2.
they solved their diversity problem by attempting to wipe out the....diversified.

IN truth, in this country, when one group got pounded on, all the other groups piled on the one group.

The Irish, then the Italians, then Eastern European immigrants, and always the Jews, even here, took turns being the scapegoats. Those in power know they gotta create a scapegoat.

I disagree that "others don't support" scapegoating.

remember what happened to the gays when the AIDS epidemic broke out?
Remember the "back to Africa" movements?
remember the furor over the mere idea of this country declaring that women had equal rights? In 1970, for Christ's sake???
Remember McCathyism?
The relocation of the Japanese during WW2, ( but not the of the German Americans)
The anti-Chinese laws?
The non-response to hunting down of Muslim and Middle Eastern people in NYC after 911?
The MAJORITY in this country supported all of the above.

Our diversity does not automatically protect us.
Even our constitution does not automatically protect us.

EVERY nation, country has found the bottom line issue is between 2 groups:
those with wealth and power, against those with ideals and a need for freedom.

[Bette Noir]

104. But I can be pulled over and jailed in Arizona.

Doesn't sound safe to me. In an Arizona jail, without air conditioning in the summer, I'd be dead in two weeks.

[Hosnon]

81. Hitler would have had a much more difficult time suspending the German equivalents

of the Bill of Rights and due process had the Weimar Constitution not explicitly allowed it.

[Diclotican]

123. no_hypocrisy

no_hypocrisy

The irony about the whole thing is that even that the Constituion who was suspended the Enabling act after the Reichtag Fire, the consitution was in action, the whole way down to the end game in 1945.. And as the nazis, of the eary parts of 1940s wanted to make an nazi constitution, who could give the new regime a new legitimty, it was rewoked by Hitler, who dosen't wanted anything like an constitution in Das Reich.. Laws yes, but he was not into the constitution thing... He was more interesting in having the last word, than to share power...

If jr had been in power, when another 9/11 had happend, i would bet on that he would make a type of "enabling act" to force all power into one hand - as he himself said before in 2000.. It had been more easy to rule US as an dictator - as long as He had been the dictator... Hitler was smart enought to play it safe, and to slowly go into the role of dictator, Jr was to stupid to not say it out loud..

Diclotican

[dixiegrrrrl]

125. US under State of Emergency supersedes Constitution,

habeas corpus, Posse Comitatus, and most other civil rights.

The United States is technically in an effectively permanent state of national emergency with regard to specific international problems, notably the threat of terrorism.


Further, states of emergency are convenient for nations, and tend to be long lasting.

# Egypt has been in a state of emergency almost without interruption since the Six-Day War in June 1967. The state of emergency has been actually continuous since the 1981 assassination of President Anwar El Sadat; Parliament renews the emergency powers pro forma every three years.
# Brunei has been in a state of emergency since December 12, 1962 in response to a pro-independence rebellion.
# Israel has been in a state of emergency since the 1948 War of Independence.
# Syria has been in a state of emergency since the Baathist coup of March 8, 1963, although it was supposed to have been relaxed.<34>
# Tonga's prime minister declared a state of emergency on November 17, 2006 due to civil unrest in the nation's capital.
# Fiji is under a state of emergency as declared by Commodore Frank Bainimarama on December 5, 2006 in the 2006 Fijian coup d'état.
# Vanuatu declared a state of emergency on March 5, 2007 because of ethnic clashes in the capital Port Vila.
# In the Palestinian Occupied Territories, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas declared a state of emergency in the Gaza Strip and West Bank following Hamas's takeover of power in Gaza Strip.
# Algeria has been in a state of emergency since the 1992 coup.
# Somalia has been in a state of emergency since 2009.
Most recently, State of Emergency Declared in Kyrgyzstan.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/slideshow/photos-state-emergency-declared-kyrgyzstan-10310243

source:
Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_emergency#United_States

[wolfgangmo]

70. The German Republic's constitution was wonderful as well.

Look what happened there. I'm temped to tell you to get you head out of ... er... the sand, but you'll only take exception to me pointing out your blind spot.

[Hosnon]

79. Um no. Any constitution that explicitly provides for the wholesale suspension of basic liberties

when the President deems there to be an emergency is not "wonderful".

And the U.S. Constitution's provision regarding the suspension of habeas corpus doesn't even come close to what the Weimar Constitution allowed.

[Hansel]

131. You mean the same SCOTUS that installed Bush as president

by stopping the vote count and who gave corporations "person-hood" in order to enable them to dominate money in politics unfettered by pesky laws? This is who is going to prevent our slide into totalitarianism?

I'm sorry, but I have absolutely no faith in the SCOTUS to prevent history from repeating itself. I use to, before 2000.

Edit to add: Pay very close attention to the judges, backed by money from the right, who are being installed on a more local level. Also, the media, it's pundits, and blog trolls work very hard to demoralize voters who would prevent the election of people who would massage the way for a takeover by extremists.

Even if we are not happy with the candidates on the left, we damn well should vote to prevent any of the candidates the Tea Baggers are supporting from getting into office if we want to hold on to this country. We need to let the Republicans know that they need to move to the center if they want a seat at the table. This is the only way we are going to get back to the center, not by rewarding them by allowing a bunch of mindless morons to win. The Republicans ARE the problem right now and they need to know it.

[Dappleganger]

166. Well said, my thoughts exactly! nt

[Odin2005]

142. The Constitution is just a "worthless piece of paper" to the PTB.

They just pack the courts with corporate-friendly stooges. Why do you think the Dems capitulated and voted for Alito and Roberts?

[atreides1]

163. Which Constitution?

Would that be the document referred to " as a piece of paper" by former President Bush? The document that has already been violated with the passing of the Patriot Act?

The document that continues to be violated by the renewal of the Patriot Act under President Obama? That Constitution?

[Solly Mack]

28. K&R.

Martin Luther King, Jr. once wrote that "everything Hitler did was legal" (in his "Letter From a Birmingham Jail")... he was talking about Jim Crow laws...how the law can be used to discriminate and oppress..even murder (& torture) people...how bigotry and hate and fear can be codified into law.

[Major Hogwash]

30. .

It isn't worth the effort.

[cali]

33. freepers have been posting this.

they think that the U.S. is on its way to becoming a fascist state under Obama.

Anything can happen, but we are not on the verge of becoming Nazi Germany II. At least not at the moment.

[treestar]

46. I question that is could happen anywhere with global communications

and modern technology. Anything like the Nazi camps would be discoverable by other countries. Word would get out and spread much faster. Remember the Iranians sending photos out?

[cali]

54. well, yes, but say it were to happen here, complete with camps

(and no, I don't think that's at all likely) who would invade us or declare war against us?

[Usrename]

100. I think this is the proper question to ask.

Also, it would make sense to question who the people in the camps might be. My guess is that they would be the people that you would call under normal circumstances to complain to about the fact that they are rounding people up and sending them to camps under terrorist warrants or some such.

So what do you do when something like that happens? The recent uprising in Iran should be informative but I don't think people want to see the real lesson there. AFAICT, only about 800 people were arrested in order to put down that insurgency. That seems like a remarkable few, considering how broad and deep the support was for the uprising. The support came from all quarters of Iranian society in overwhelming majorities. The election was rigged, plain and simple, and the people were not going to stand for it. Until they arrested 800 folks. Then they went away without a whimper.

Hitler never had the capability to fully map out the social networks that are necessary for political organizing. This is not true now, with the current group of fascists. They could accomplish what the Nazis accomplished far more efficiently and with a greatly reduced body count.

One-tenth of one-percent was the number of bodies that could be detained by Halliburton under the Bush regime. That should be plenty if you round up the right people. In my town of about 30,000 that would be about 30 people. I can easily envision the local police executing 30 arrest warrant locally without any trouble. If it is the right 30 people. And once they are rounded up and detained, who would you call to complain to?

I can easily see how we could wind up in a situation that is easily as totalitarian as Iran is today. Any hope of organizing a restance would be lost for a generation. It really wouldn't matter if the remaining populace was armed because as long as they cannot organize they will not have any clue of exactly who to point their weapons at or why.

It really is all about organizing.

[William Z. Foster]

169. at least not at the moment?

I wonder when that "moment" might arrive. History shows that once the "moment" arrives, it is far too late to stop.

By your logic - that until we can see clear and obvious large scale effects, until it is undeniable, until we know the outcome there is no cause for alarm - Nazi Germany was not on the verge of becoming Nazi Germany as late as 1941 - see Klemperer, Shirer, Smith, etc.

We have the benefit of hindsight in the case of Germany in the 30's and 40's. The people living there at the time had no such benefit, and were making the very same arguments you do after it was far too late to stop. Klemperer reports that as late as early 1945 when the Gestapo seized a person - this after thousands had already been seized and had disappeared - that he still heard people in the ghetto say "what did he do wrong? He must have done something wrong, they wouldn't just arrest him for nothing." Howard K. Smith reports that until the invasion of the Soviet Union, life went on "normally" and people had no sense that all Hell was about to break lose. Even resistance leaders wrote that until mass bombing in Berlin by the Allies late in the war, they were still wondering if they were being "paranoid" about where things were leading. Even Goebbels in his personal diaries seems to have been clueless as to what had been unleashed until very late in the war.

People talk as though alarmism were the thing we should fear and avoid, when the historical record overwhelmingly tells us that it is complacency that is the most dangerous way to think about this.

[cali]

35. Whether it's the volcanic ash disrupting air traffic or this heinous new law

in Arizona, you always see everything as the sign of impending doom. That's your prism. That we're about to suffer a massive culture crash.

One of these days you might get it right, but if you actually did know history- and you've made it clear that your knowledge is very superficial, you'd be a tad bit more chary with the pronouncements of imminent doom.

[pepperbear]

37. been there, read it. way ahead of its time. n/t

[hobbit709]

38. It CAN happen, here or anywhere.

My mother tells me the same things. She was born in Austria and remembers the Anschluss and aftermath quite well.

[csziggy]

39. It can be read here:

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301001h.html

[pinboy3niner]

82. Thanks for the link--bookmarked nt

[Blue_In_AK]

47. As you mention being wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross,

by sure to read http://progressivealaska.blogspot.com/2010/04/new-light-on-dangers-of-millennialism.html and the other linked blog posts at the end.

[kentuck]

49. I am very, very concerned....

and depressed.

Even on DU, you may be dismissed as a "doom and gloomer". Look at the bright side. Be positive. We are told. But, do they not see what is happening? These are very dangerous signals being sent to our country. Not just in Arizona, but the messages from the tea-baggers and the haters. And the messages from Wall Street. And the messages from our politicians. Nobody sees the trainwreck coming.

[hobbit709]

51. A long time ago someone asked me I'm always watching the news because it was always a bummer.

I replied "Because when the shit hits the fan, it's not a good idea to run in the direction it's coming FROM"

[dixiegrrrrl]

53. Most excellent point.

I also believe we need to stop buying the bullets which are being used against us.
( big banks, big pharma, etc).

[troubledamerican]

50. "Know When To Fucking Run"

Are you suggesting that smart Jews left Germany in 1933?

Are you suggesting that smart Chileans left Chile before the coup?

Are you suggesting that smart Argentinians left Argentina before the coup?

Are you suggesting that smart Americ-- wait a minute.

OK. Yes. It's almost time. We have a few months left. Shortly, the economy will be hit again, and travel will be prohibitive.

OK. Yes. Honest people know where this is all leading. The Rabies Mob (in the streets & in the Pentagon) will not "get well" and stop the madness.

OK. Yes. If you want to live, it's almost time.

It is happening here. It will not be halted.

[dixiegrrrrl]

52. I have read many diaries and stories of people in Germany

who did indeed leave ahead of the storm, and who desperately tried to talk relatives and friends to leave with them.
I have read "They Thought They Were Free".
What is happening today is identical to the path that Germany took.
Germany, which DID have many nationalities at the time.
You may remember what they did with anyone who was not "Ayran" enough.

It was not just the jews who were persecuted. It was the Poles, Hungarians, Slavs,
anyone who did not fit the German ideal.
Read about Katyn, and why the German deliberately chose the 20,000 Poles to massacre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

KO pointing out that the neo-cons and Repubs are a white party is a major clue as to what is going on.

What has always surprised me was not how many left ahead of the storm in Germany.
It was the many who did not leave and paid dearly for their denial.
They too hoped people would "come to their senses" and that "others" would be able to
intercede and restore sanity.
Looked at Congress lately?
Looked at SCOTUS lately?


K&R, btw, nadine

[Lydia Leftcoast]

85. Correction, the Katyn massacre was blamed on the Germans

for decades, but it's one of the few atrocities they DIDN'T commit.

The Polish officers were actually massacred by the Soviets, who then took over Poland and told everyone the Germans had killed all those officers. It was a plausible lie, and anyone who asked questions got a midnight visit.

See the movie Katyn(coming soon on Netflix) for the whole story.

[dixiegrrrrl]

126. Yes, I stand corrected. Thank you.

[KonaKane]

151. Twas the Soviets. Something my Polish wife made sure I knew.

"Katyn" is a brutal but powerful movie and everyone should see it.

[troubledamerican]

88. Agreed. One great scene in "Schindler's List" is

when the old matriarch on the train to the camps is telling the young women, "Oh, no, they wouldn't kill us. They need us for our slave labor."

I think Spielberg included that scene for a reason.

[cali]

56. I wish I had a buck for every time this has been posted here over the last few years

and it was always the same: we're out of time! it'll happen with months or weeks. We are no where near where you and the op think we are.

[Cleita]

59. Sorry Cali but we are further in than we were when Bush first took office.

The first warning signals were when the Supreme Court strayed out of their jurisdiction and appointed Bush our President. It has been argued that they committed treason, yet Congress has been unwilling to investigate this and put the offending Justices on trial if they are found to be as such. Then came the Patriot Act. Then habeas corpus was removed. Then we sanctioned the torture and murder of prisoners and denied them proper trials, which is against what we agreed to in signing on the Geneva Conventions. We assassinated the head of a sovereign state. All this is happening incrementally under our very noses and if President Obama and the Democrats don't start reversing this trend, when we wake up and smell the rot, it will be too late, like it was for Germany.

[cali]

62. I disagree.

and you know habeas was restored, right? And who is the head of state we assassinated? Do you mean Hussein?

Look, there are a lot of reasons I don't think we're near some apocalyptic cliff edge. And believe me, worse things have happened in the past in this country. Think of the camps that Japanese-Americans, citizens of this country, were placed in. I see incremental change for the better since the dems took control of Congress and since Obama was elected.

[Cleita]

63. If we lose majorities in Congress in November, Obama's not going

to be able to do much to stop this train wreck.

[Fire1]

67. How right you are. n/t

[dixiegrrrrl]

127. We have a majority NOW yet the train wreck is getting worse.

Well, a majority if you count all Dems as being ....Dems.

[troubledamerican]

89. You didn't ask when I think it'll happen.

4/4/15. When the planes crash into the Capitol Dome, all the Democrats in Congress are killed in one event like the Polish air massacre, and Palin will be sworn-in by John Roberts on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial at midnight.

You are the matriarch on the train in "Schindler's List".

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. Children of Survivors know that this comes

it is something you suck up in your mother's milk, and your family history. And it is not exclusive to just Holocaust Survivors. Children of refugees develop an uncanny sense of survival. And yes, if this is not stopped cold, the time IS coming.

[underseasurveyor]

55. How many times I have heard those words over these past years

And how many times I've said to myself, well it did happen in here in America.

[Cleita]

57. Thank you for this. Americans have to wake up to what is happening under

their very noses. Also, Nazism was born in Bavaria where it took hold first before it spread to all of Germany and Hitler was able to seize power. Also, the Weimar Republic was never dissolved by the Nazis. They changed the laws incrementally until the original Weimar Constitution became inconsequential, like ours is becoming now.

[Karenina]

75. Bavaria...

Germany's Texas. ;-)

[Kablooie]

58. Many of us DO see it, but in Weimar Germany did many see it then? Is this a difference?

Do we have an advantage that Germany did not have then?

We have history as precedent.

Do we have enough sentient citizens to stop the progression before it gets a foothold?

Or are the majority unconcious dullards that follow the dark side whereever it pulls them?

[Cleita]

60. Many did and they found themselves on the outside looking in.

As the Nazis took over the government and the media, any dissent in the ensuing years was eventually a reason to be arrested and exterminated one way or the other. Some high profile German politicians, who couldn't be outright exterminated were sent to places and put in jobs where they had no power to influence what was going on.

[humbled_opinion]

64. LOL

And the Teabaggers are saying the exact same thing about Obama and the Marxist Socialist revolution they perceive.

So who is right/

We are either going Nazi facist or Marxist Socialist.... I don't know

[Usrename]

98. I replied to the wrong post, but this might make you smile:

[WCGreen]

65. Every body should read that book....

[Dr Morbius]

66. Am I to understand that a belief that this Arizona law will be...

... overturned (it's unconstitutional) means I believe in American exceptionalism?

I'd like someone to connect the dots on this one for me.

[proteus_lives]

68. Another chicken little thread.

:eyes:

People just can't hold their water around here.

[Bluebear]

76. Go roll your eyes somewhere else. I have yet to read one worthwhile thing you have to say. /ignore

At last, ignore. Enough.

[proteus_lives]

78. Who are you?

I don't believe we've ever had a conversation.

Oh, well. Ignore is the refuge of cowards so I don't think I'm missing anything.

[TheWatcher]

114. Denial is the refuge of cowards who lack the courage and intellectual honesty to face reality.

[Karenina]

115. Indeed!

Watching this ongoing train wreck from a safe (?) distance puts the myopia of Ami-land in sharp relief. There is NOTHING anyone can say to the poster to whom you responded that will shake him out of his tossin' an'a turnin' slumber. He won't wake up until it knees him in the balls. Denial. It's the American way.

[proteus_lives]

133. Hyperbole.

It's the Karenina way.

Sorry, I'm not going to join the chicken little party. It's not helpful.

[bobthedrummer]

171. I've got your back sister anytime you return to our soil-it's happening but so is the resistance as

those of US that love the truth regardless of all else are reclaiming what is ours.

[proteus_lives]

132. I'm fighting for intellectual honesty.

But people prefer nazi buzz-words.

Oh well.

[azmouse]

80. They are getting hysterical over a law that isn't even in effect yet.

And before it takes effect it will almost certainly be ruled unconstitutional.

[Bette Noir]

108. Uh, yeah. A law that says I can be pulled over for no reason,

and jailed if I fail to present a passport, even though I'm a natural-born citizen traveling in my own country, strikes me as plenty of reason to be "hysterical." I've been harassed enough times by police and INS already. I intend to avoid AZ as much as possible, but it may not always be possible to avoid.

[Karenina]

116. 'Zona Mäüschen... THEY

That THEY (you know, AMERICAN CITIZENS) who have ALREADY been negatively affected by your local gun-toting makinMurikkasafe for white supremacy TM are described by you as "getting hysterical" is a deep disappointment. Put yourself in the place of the woman (if you are able) who had to spring her husband from their clutches (because his Class A CDL was deemed insufficient) by DRIVING FROM CALIFORNIA TO ARIZONA with BOTH THEIR BCs (so they wouldn't try to nab her too). Would such an experience ruin YOUR day?

[azmouse]

119. Your sarcasm is noted and not well done.

If you follow my post back to the person it was made to you would see the "they" I was referring to are Duers... not the unfortunate people this misguided law is aimed at.

I do not appreciate the broad-brush smears being made against everyone who lives in AZ. We are not all racist. I live here to try to make this state better and because it is where I have chosen to make my home. Put yourself in my place (IF you are able) and understand that NOT all Arizonans are bigots.... and residents of all other states are not pure at heart. Good and bad exists everywhere.

[Karenina]

120. I lived in Phoenix for six months.

Arizona is a BEAUTIFUL state and I met some really super people. We were all surrounded by no-fun rednecks. In addition to the general atmosphere and being an east coaster the Salt River didn't work well for me. DON'T DRIVE THROUGH PUDDLES. It would seem Arizonans have collectively driven into one of those puddles. All of my best wishes are with you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. This is not about you

that said, as a resident of the state, just like we in Cali have to figure out how to deal with Prop 8, you need to deal with your own bigots.

So you will get the good, the bad and the ugly. The ugly is that I am not going to travel to your state, and partly that is fear of being arrested for being Mexican... never mind I am a US Citizen. But I speak that furiegner language, and English with an accent.

And trust me, we all have our bigots, but time that we all deal with them. We will try to use the Ballot box... I suggest that even people in Az take that stand and yes I am aware of the first riot already. I commend you, because unfortunately it will take a few hurt and even dead people to perhaps wake up DC that this is as bad as... a few other periods. And I do hope the extremist in your state don't think this are fighting words.

[dixiegrrrrl]

129. The issue is that such a law would be unthinkable

before Bush.
And esp. before Reagan.
That such a law could now be passed and codified is the issue, whether or not it is ruled upon.

In the America we are supposed to believe in, "papers please" carries...or carried....a very ominous
meaning. A meaning from 40 plus years of a Cold War that cost this country a small fortune, many lives,
many ruined careers. Having to show papers upon demand was symbolic of the dreaded
"Communism" and other totalitarian countries that America was supposedly so much against.


Geez....when did they stop teaching history in this country???

[nadinbrzezinski]

147. Well given that MY US PASSPORT IS NOT VALID

by the way don't expect me to spend a red cent in your state.

Oh and the LAW HAS BEEN SIGNED OR YOU MISSED THAT?

[azmouse]

154. The law doesn't take effect for 90 days....OR PERHAPS YOU MISSED THAT?

There is time to get this POS law overturned.

And I don't give a shit about your "red cent". Keep it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

155. And they have already DETAINED people for being brown

and demanded their birth certificate. (And off to jail you go)

Yes I am pissed, and if you cannot see the problem, it is not my fault

But part of the process (and I hate it that it also affects the innocent) is economic. So THERE

[Paladin]

83. Are You Glad The Nazis Were Defeated In WWII?

Extra points for an honest response.....

[proteus_lives]

84. What's your point cowboy?

Of course I'm glad the Nazis were defeated.

Are you implying something?

[Paladin]

121. You're Protesting Too Much As To Nazi Comparisons. (n/t)

[proteus_lives]

134. Ahh.

How dull.

You really have nothing better to bring to the table?

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. Perhaops this is less insulting to you?

Or perhaps this...



Or perhaps this



Or perhaps a more recent example of AMERICAN racism is more apropo for you? Sorry same period you despise





You are right, there is no comparison. After all we all know the US has never EVAH engaged in ethnic cleansing or for that matter internment. We have absolutely no reason to think none of us should ever be concerned.

If you believe in the absolute rubbish of American Exceptionalism... I guess you are right then. Guss what? That is a myth... the reality is that what is going on in Arizona has nothing to do with Nazis, except that one of the SPONSORS of this bill is a White Supremacist. You did know that? DIDN"T YOU?

I expect the government, that is the FEDERAL government to take action against this atrocity, that would be the LOGICAL thing to expect. Given previous US History I am still prepared for them to take a very weak response. Will see in two weeks just what the fuck DC does? And yes, this violates a few things. The Primacy Principle, the Fourth Amendment and the Fourteenth just for starters. Oh and here is more, given I am the target of laws such as this... well shall we say I get it. At a damn fucking visceral level

[proteus_lives]

157. Scary lists and pictures!

That's a convincing argument.

"After all we all know the US has never EVAH engaged in ethnic cleansing or for that matter internment. We have absolutely no reason to think none of us should ever be concerned."

This has all happened but once again I advise the "Nazis! Nazis!" crowd to google the Know-Nothings, Anti-Masons and anti-Irish frenzy to get a much closer comparison to what is happening today.

"If you believe in the absolute rubbish of American Exceptionalism"

With all my heart, that's why I :eyes: on these chicken little threads. Because it's AE of the highest order to compare themselves to the victims of the Third Reich.

The horrid new law will be fought, protested against, face lawsuit after lawsuit and be struck down. But the nazi stuff and "we're all doomed" rants will just make people take you less seriously.

[nadinbrzezinski]

161. As I said, it has never happened here...

After all this is just as American as Apple Pie

You are right, some of you on DU are very right... this is not like Nazi Germany... very, very right. This is about US History and it's patterns of ethnic cleansing and mass deportations.

You think I am kidding?

Well the first efforts to EXTERMINATE a people who dared live on OUR lands, was in Virginia early in the Colonial Period... yep, that is when a few things started, like oh poisoning whole groups of Warriors of those tribes that dared resist us. I mean it is not like they were good and descent Christians or knew how to properly work the land. And of course then we came with the Black Legend of the Spanish Conquest. I mean the Spaniards were far worst than we were... oh wait... what do I hear there? The Spaniards actually HAD kids with the locals... and a few more of the locals actually survived the experience. No, not because the Spaniards were better... oh no siree, but they were a little more effective in converting the locals and not killing ALL.

Of course this did not just stop with the early colony. All of you remember the French Indian Wars? If you do, take a bow... most Americans don't. Well, shall we say scalping is not something the locals invented. Oh no, that was us... oh wait, but Hollywood has managed to shine that turd.

Nor did this stop after Independence.

The Trail of Tears come to mind, or the whole sale stealing of Haciendas by the Anglos who came into the lands conquered from the Tejanos and Californios and others, some of whose descendants today face being criminalized for being brown. And of course, that shameful thing called the Reservation System... where do you think some European got ideas on how to treat undesirable groups? Who do think were the ones who inspired them? Good... another turd, and nasty bit we have managed to collectively forget.

But that is not all... then we got sneaky about cheap labor. And we got workers from Mexico to do our dirty bits during WW I, many of whom had children here, and those kids were deported during the Great Depression. On and this would repeat itself during WW II, and the 1950s. You may not be familiar with the term, but Brasero is not exactly a term of endearment.

So you think this bill in Arizona is about Nazi Germany or just plain out US History?

This is in the water, and it's come to us every so often.

Oh and let's not go into how these Mexicans are referred to. I mean they are carriers of disease and increase crime... like any person studying US History, I mean actually readying it, has not heard this before, for ahem insert immigrant group here. Yep, it is there, and this law in Arizona is about this. Oh and there is more. What the Lt. Governor of Georgia said today about them lazy ones that will not work... my lord was I readying Governor Berkeley of Virginia back in the days of the Jamestown Colony? This is also a theme... the poor and the disenfranchised are just cogs, to be abused so a patrician elite can make a good living.

This is not Capitalism by the way... it goes back to oh the 1600's and has a good link to the attitudes of the Lord of the manor over his serfs.

So you are right, this is not Nazi Germany, but as American as Apple Pie...

And I expect the usual suspects to now tell me why I am being chicken little and none of this ever happened, or why it would never happen again...

Mr. Santayana comes to mind... those who forget history (and most Americans do, regularly) are condemned to repeat it.

But forgive me if this echo of US History is also VERY SIMILAR to those of European History... as they say we are NOT that unique, or special. Just like everybody else, we shine our turds... until they come back at us in a blinding way. But we have chosen to be truly blinded by the shiny... and it is just fools gold...

Could point to the thread but why bother...

[troubledamerican]

90. You sound like Orrin Hatch calling Clinton's 1997 terrorism bill "Chicken Little stuff".

[Angry Dragon]

72. It is happening here

[skepticscott]

74. Unfortunately, this is only one example of the delusion of

"it can't happen here" or "it can't happen to us" that Americans are subject to. Our dependency on fossil fuels and borrowed money both have this country (and the world, to some extent) heading towards a cliff, but people are convinced that because this is America, things can never get THAT bad here. Convinced because they want to be convinced and convinced because to think otherwise would require them to get off their couches and push for real change (to their own lives as well as their country). But as soon as they see a smiling politician telling them that everything will be fine if we just believe in this great nation, they go back to watching American Idol and kick the can down the road another year or two.

[autorank]

77. Truly outstanding k*r

Thank you

[KonaKane]

86. One of my favorite books, ever.

And also a chilling blueprint of exactly how fascism could take over our beloved nation.

For those who have read Sinclair Lewis' book, think about the demonizing of intellectualism, the advent of the Sarah Palins in politics, and "President Buzz Windrip".

[foxfeet]

87. It has already happened here.

See, for example, the internment of innocent citizens of Japanese ancestry during WWII. I remember when gay men were routinely rounded up and jailed or subjected to involuntary "treatment," including shock treatments and even psycho-surgery.

We cannot allow this to happen ever again to anyone.

[Liberty Belle]

91. DU this CNN poll on the AZ law:

Do you agree with President Obama that Arizona's new immigration bill is "misguided"?

Currently the majority are saying No!

[defendandprotect]

94. You forgot the link -- !!

[BlooInBloo]

92. Sure it can. All you have to do is say "oversensitive" and "reverse-racism" for about 15 years...

and then you can pass any bigot law you want.

[defendandprotect]

93. Allen Dulles didn't bring in tens of thousands . . .

of Nazis post-WWII in order to help us retain democracy!!

They were used to found the CIA -- many funneled into FBI and other government agencies --

Werner Von Braun headed up NASA!!

It is amazing, I agree, that so many here will hold the idea still that this is "conspiracy-

free America" --

It's sadly laughable ....

[laughingliberal]

97. +1 nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

143. I don't have to go there

I can go to a certain town back in 1872, where a white flag flew. The Cavalry came in and killed every man, woman, child, dog, living thing. Oh that was the Seventh Cavalry under one Colonel, George Armstrong Custer.

So no, I don't need the Nazis. The US, all on its own, has committed some pretty horrific acts. Just ask any native American what that was.

Or I could go even farther back, hell to the beginning of the country. We actually had a pretty healthy WHITE slavery going here, at Jamestown... we may want to use pretty nice sounding terms, but that was exactly what it was.

No I don't need Nazis. We have quite a bit of ugliness in American history... and this is but one more echo of that.

[Usrename]

99. Check out this sub-thread from a while back:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6367233#6367416

It's absolutely incredible to me.

[bertman]

103. Recommend. Although, I take issue with one part, Nadin. The last words should read

STAND AND FIGHT!

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. Correct, but first you need to get people to wake up

that said, having worked with refugees, and my dad having been one after the Holocaust, you might forgive my added sense of alarm.

[shugah]

105. we're either america

or we're not. only time will tell.

[grahamhgreen]

107. They just have better pr this time, is all...

[JDPriestly]

109. My husband was a child in NAZI Austria. The Bush era reminded him

very much of the Austria of that period. And if you look at the history of Austria following the failure of the Creditanstalt -- the history of Austria in the late 1920s, early 1930s or so, the parallels of this period of the subprime mortgage crisis is similar in many respects. It's not so much about the conduct of any one group but about the tremendous division in the U.S. and our immature unwillingness to realize that we are all to blame.

The government's reaction back in the pre-Third-Reich days and the reactions of the Bush and, yes, even the Obama administration in the current time are so similar to those of the Austrian governments at that time. Pick on the left. Divide the country even more. I know many will say that Obama is trying to bring us together. But actually, he is just trying to bring the country together by scapegoating the left. He compromises with the right on everything. When did he really compromise with those who criticize him from the left? "Fair and balanced" does not describe either the Bush or Obama administration especially on economic and military issues. There is a definite pandering to the right.

On edit, another book everyone should read is "They thought they were free."

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn’t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people’s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing.

"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.
/www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

[workinclasszero]

110. It can't happen here...

Uh...whoops! Never mind!

When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross

This is happening before our eyes. I am a Christian and I'm here to tell you that the republican teabagging fascists have hijacked many Christians already.

Sarah Palin is their Hitler and Rush and his legion of hate radio minions are their Goebbels.

The Nazis just made it illegal to have brown skin in Arizona! Should we wait till they make it illegal to be a democrat until young people and especially non white Americans get off their ass and do something about it?

These republican fascists had better be stopped this November or its all over folks!

[GTurck]

111. I had the same....

reaction to the talk of Texas seceding. I am a northerner here. We moved to be close to and influence our grandchildren because our son met and married a young woman in this state. Every day I get a little more uneasy about living in Texas and want to re-assert my American citizenship.
There are good people here, many progressives too; but the noise is coming from the regressives and no one notices the imbalance.
Texas has a fascinating history and beautiful geography. But push comes to shove I move back north where I grew up if the talk of secession continues. And I intend to make them pay by charging them top dollar for the privilege of buying the home we tried to make here. U. S. currency won't be any good for them anyway. :mad: :grr:

[2Design]

117. thank you for putting into words what I have written here many times during bush regime

The book that help solidify what I was thinking was this one http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Third-Reich-Richard-Evans/dp/0143034693/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272212532&sr=8-3

This book shows how 10 to 20 years earlier - the Right, the churches, the christians, the homophos brought about the environment for this dictatorship - not unsimilar to now - and probably same or similar people or their descendants since so many flee'd from Germany to here who were the criminals.

[suffragette]

118. The AZ law reminds me of the Mexican Repatriation

and given that law, I could see some of the same types of intimidation, roundups and expulsions of people happening.
The pattern is actually very similar and sets the environment for much of what occurred then to recur now.



http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-04-04-1930s-deportees-cover_x.htm
His father and oldest sister were farming sugar beets in the fields of Hamilton, Mont., and his mother was cooking tortillas when 6-year-old Ignacio Piña saw plainclothes authorities burst into his home.
"They came in with guns and told us to get out," recalls Piña, 81, a retired railroad worker in Bakersfield, Calif., of the 1931 raid. "They didn't let us take anything," not even a trunk that held birth certificates proving that he and his five siblings were U.S.-born citizens.

The family was thrown into a jail for 10 days before being sent by train to Mexico. Piña says he spent 16 years of "pure hell" there before acquiring papers of his Utah birth and returning to the USA.

The deportation of Piña's family tells an almost-forgotten story of a 1930s anti-immigrant campaign. Tens of thousands, and possibly more than 400,000, Mexicans and Mexican-Americans were pressured — through raids and job denials — to leave the USA during the Depression, according to a USA TODAY review of documents and interviews with historians and deportees. Many, mostly children, were U.S. citizens.


The numbers in that article are smaller than other estimates. But every source of info about the Mexican Repatriation shows how this was done out of fear and prejudice and the brutal manner and impact on the families, both those caught up in the wide net of intolerance and those forcibly separated from families. Another important point is that many, perhaps most, Americans are unaware this occurred. That leads to it happening again. The AZ law is a step on the path in that direction. All the more important that the history of this event be taught.

http://dist22.casen.govoffice.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC=%7B3A627CCD-1500-4D80-95DE-D06644D9985A%7D&DE=%7BE9BB30E7-CF32-477A-ADEB-FC08DB35766B%7D

1930s Unconstitutional Deportations Legislation

In 2005, Governor Schwarzenegger signed the “Apology Act for the 1930s Mexican Repatriation Program” (SB 675-Dunn) which acknowledges the suffering that tens of thousands of Americans experienced when they were forced out of their homes. The apology is only the first step in acknowledging and trying to amend their traumatic experiences.

During the 1930s, the government violated the human rights of many Americans of Mexican ancestry. An estimated 2 million people were unconstitutionally deported to México. In California alone about 400,000 Americans citizens and U.S. legal residents were deported to México.
Historically many underrepresented groups have experienced the violation of their human rights; Japanese Americans were interned, millions of Jews and Gypsies were victims of genocide, Native Americans were forcefully relocated to reservations and African-Americans were forced into slavery. Legislation has been used to address these violations of human rights, by offering apology acts, requiring the adoption of course study and in some cases offering compensations for the victims’ losses.

SB 1214 - 1930s Unconstitutional Deportations Curriculum

This bill requires the Department of Education to incorporate the study of the 1930s unconstitutional deportations of Americans citizens and lawful permanent residents to México to the instruction that is required to be provided in social studies, for grades 7 to 12. The requirement that this area of study be included in the adopted course study would commence for grades 7 and 8 when the state board adopts the instructional materials and for grades 9 to 12, inclusive, when the state board next revises the curriculum frameworks for history-social science.

By incorporating this historical event in our history books and making curriculum accessible to educators we can begin educating our future generations in order to prevent future imminent violation of human rights.

[nadinbrzezinski]

152. Very good, and it is similar in intent as well

they had a few other issues, like local laws that forced kids to learn ONLY ENGLISH that were not that different in intent that naturalizing (as in absorbing) American Indians by forced schooling and other means.

My congratulations to you. This is but one of the many echos we have in this piece of crap called a law.

[area51]

122. kick (n/t)

[BobbyBoring]

124. There are...............

A lot of great points here and yes, it is happening here, NOW. The American people are being divided ON PURPOSE. Yes, Palin is the new Hitler and Beck,Limbaugh, Hannity, Levin, etc are the Goebbels. The American people are getting dumber by the day. Our education system is being dismantled before our very eyes, ON PURPOSE. I can't believe how many totally ignorant individuals I run into in the course of an average day. They're ignorant because of the daily bombardment of bull shit.

Just as in Nazi Germany, fear is the prime motivator and scared people will do about anything to feel safe. There is a bill sponsored by McCain and Lieberman to confiscate hand guns and automatic and semi automatic weapons from "Where the are stored", ie in your house.

We've already had our Reich stag fire and our rights under the Constitution were greatly eroded by the Patriot Act. We don't have far to go>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. Welcom to DU

and there are just not NAZI echoes (as much as those bother some folks) but echos of actual, honest to goodness US History.

[dixiegrrrrl]

130. I am SO kicking this up.

[mojowork_n]

135. My question is...

...who's paying for all of it?

What would an attempt to follow the "money trail" show?

In 1960 there was a rough 1-to-1 equivalence between journalists and P.R. people.

Today, it's something like 5 or 6 or 7 to 1, P.R. (paid-for messengers) to 'truth seekers.' (However compromised they may be, given the constraints of the editorial policies of the publications/news outlets they work for.)

All the viral e-mails, the tea party funders (what was it you needed to fork up, to attend that Tea Party convention, a few months ago?), all the elements that combine to 'manufacture consent?'

...What would an attempt to discover that bottom line show?

I happened to be in a country that used to be called, "Yugoslavia," in 1988. It was a university-sponsored academic excursion. For me, a chance to practice up on my first language. (I had to learn English when I started kindergarden, I didn't know a word the first day.)

What I saw there, then -- the kind of stuff that was being flung back and forth, in the magazines and daily press -- reminds me all too much of what I'm seeing here, now.

...But it's not as if I'm posting this, expecting an actual reply, or anything.

I also want to know who was it that paid for all that hate speech on Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines, in Rwanda, in the early 90's.

Fat chance of that ever happening.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. Your questions are to the depth of this

given that one of the sponsors of this particular law is a white supremacist that should tell you something.

As to Rwanda... I suspect some people (who will never get their hands dirty) want a race war.

As to hate radio... well it goes back to oh at least 1972 if not earlier, when they built this echo machine. Some of your answers are in a book called The Right Wing Echo Machine, by Brock... worthy readying if very scary.

Names... well there are the usual suspects, some of them going back a long time. Some of them the Coors Family (and the Coors Family Foundation) that's been behind the funding of places like the Heritage Foundation for a long time. Some worthy links to start your work...

http://www.amazon.com/Republican-Noise-Machine-Right-Wing-Democracy/dp/1400048753

http://www.adolphcoors.org/

http://www.heritage.org/

Of course there are the Talking Points Memo that go out every morning... and yes the answers are out there, but as you said... our media will not do the work. That said... Mrs. Maddow has done quite a bit of the work... and has told us quite a bit about Freedom Works, dick armey's outfit, that is behind the Tea Bag movement...

http://www.freedomworks.org/

I hope this gets you going on the right way to learn some of what this is, and how it is happening.

[cliffordu]

139. duplicate of next post

[cliffordu]

140. Not to worry.

Many of us here will not tolerate a takeover.

The courts still function and I expect this law will be overturned asap.

If we hit martial law and people start getting rounded up en mass, the shit hits the fan.

Then we have a real deal insurrection.

They might win elections and spread the hate with shit laws like this, but as a minority as of about 2050, the white idiots that write and sign crap bills like this cannot turn America into Nazi germany. Not enough of them.

Lots of us whites won't tolerate it. Most, I'd say.

[Scurrilous]

159. Kick

:kick:

[Kablooie]

160. Oh hell. Racism is a long standing American tradition against any growing foreign population.

It's as American as apple pie, unfortunately. It will probably never go away.

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. Yep made that point here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8222999

And I'd argue it is human nature actually.

[Dappleganger]

164. A giant fucking K&R nt

[nightgaunt]

167. USA carries out genocide in other countries for decades

From Haiti to Afghanistan we have. I am against it but our tax money goes to it and many people carry it out believing it is the right thing to do and is their right to do. What they can do in another country they can do here. Once you are labeled the enemy they can with a clear conscience take your freedoms and your life away.

Ironically "IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE," came just one year after a real coup was aborted in 1934. A patriotic general Smedley Butler told him after he was approached to lead the million man army armed by ITT, made up of veteran. FDR was oblivious to it. He did nothing to them either. Look up "the business coup" to find out. The same ones, plus newcomers, are at it again and this time they made sure to cover most of the bases. Why do you think the middle class has been attacked and shrunk since 1980? The Dominionists liked the conditions of 1934 so they helped to recreate it to use. From financial Depression to wars and threats of secession are all there along with climate change which also helps in the formation of dictatorships. They like the theocratic-corporate blend version. This time they want the USA (or whatever they will call it) to be the Axis of the 21st century.

[bobthedrummer]

170. "Would anyone like to read 'It Can't Happen Here' online?" (archived slad thread started 6-23-07)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1168943