I am a little concerned about the hate toward ALL of Arizona

[SargeUNN]

I have read comments from some here and I am highly concerned about the anger at all things Arizona and all those in Arizona (or at least they are sending that message) and yet they seem to forget that many here hate the damn law. They seem to forget that many of us called the Governor and some even faced her face to face to get her to veto this horrendous bill. I have seen a trend that makes me wonder why we progressives/liberals are different from the right, and believe me I know the way right wingers see things since I lived in Mississippi until 3 years ago. I will have my 57th birthday tomorrow and to be honest I wish I had not lived to have seen it, and in fact have regretted the fact I thought my life was valuable enough to escape the death that was going to happen to me in Mississippi when I had the guts to take on Haley Barbour and some very rich and powerful people. Yeah I knew I was putting my life on the line when I did it, but I felt it was better to die fighting the fight for 2 section 8 housing complexes, one in Gulfport, one in Pascagoula than to just sit back and take the attitude most had taken in the area of oh well nothing I can do about it. Yeah I won that fight and recieved death threats, faced being avoided by people I had known all my life, and having to walk miles to get groceries because nobody would take me to the store for less than $60 for the trip. I had gotten to the point where my skin was turning yellow, lost weight from 205 to 140 lbs. and feeling my life slowly fading. What kept me going was those Mike Malloy Listeners and those people in Phoenix Arizona like Jeff Farias. When Mike Malloy sent out the call to help me, the people in Arizona stepped up, donated money, with Jeff Farias taking me into his home for as long as it took me to find a place of my own. He and his family listened to me as I needed their company to overcome nightmares of Katrina and the threat I had faced. The people here not only donated money and helped me get set up in a place, but KPHX/Nova M Radio offered me a radio show that I do to this day. They supported the show, they made my cause of helping the people of Jackson County Mississippi who lost homes and needed help to get that help. KPHX not only had it's listeners donate and bring 2 large U-Haul trucks full of goods for the people, but money for the organization that was trying to help put those lives together. They followed up a year later gathering money donations to help build 100 homes for those in Mississippi. They had a homeless drive to keep people from meeting their death in the heat of summer or the cold in winter. They donated to Dan Saban and worked their butts off trying to defeat Arpaio.

No folks this law really sucks and tomorrow we have another horrendous bill that will be passed by this birther legislature that we are working to defeat, then Brewer will with her wrinkly old face and her sick mind will sign. It is a gun bill that will just make it even worse to be safe but the libertarians and birthers have control of our legislature right now. I think a boycott is something that might be in order, but I call on you outside the state to not kill the work we are trying to do inside it. Remember Mayor Phil Gordon is going to put a lawsuit to stop this law, the Sec. of State a republican, doesn't like this law and tried to get Brewer to veto it, but she didn't listen. We have to have your support so if you want to boycott please don't boycott those who are working inside the state to stop the madness. You will only be killing off the ones fighting to stop it if you aren't careful.

I really hope you are thinking and realize if you decide to boycott do so on the target that needs to be hit, not the ones who are fighting to overturn this law. Martin Luther King was aware of this in his boycotts and he didn't abandon the ones that fought the fight, and I ask you too follow MLK's example and don't forsake those who are already working to overcome this hate element. Otherwise you might be feeding the very beast you think you are trying to stop.

[hobbit709]

1. It's probably the same crowd that bashes TX every chance they get.

To these people, every time some state does something RW stupid, then automatically everyone in that state is a RW nutjob.

[trotsky]

12. I thought we might see it tone down when MA elected pubbie Brown.

But no.

[WolverineDG]

43. No, MA just gave them a new target

(and dare I say, some Massholes a taste of their own medicine they usually dish out to Texas)

I saw the same bullshit treatment given to every state where anti-gay marriage statutes have passed, except for California. That state has always been exempt from the hatred & bigotry that gets slung around on DU.

dg

[pipi_k]

49. And then, no doubt, there was hatred directed toward

Florida over the whole 2000 Bush "election" thing...

Alaska for having spawned the horror that is Sarah Palin...

All the "red" states and everyone in them for things I don't even remember...

And maybe even poor little Rhode Island just because it's so tiny and people can kick the shit out of it with one leg tied behind their backs.


No state is immune, it seems, and it will just keep happening over and over again.



--- Masshole Pipi who did not vote for Scott Brown

[w8liftinglady]

84. LOL-I was thinking the same thing ..welcome to the land of mutual exclusiveness

DUers and their freeper states

[saltpoint]

2. I have not seen any posts on this site whatsoever which suggest we

or anyone else should be targeting "the ones who are fighting to overturn this law."

What are you talking about?

[SargeUNN]

4. they are here, fortunately not plentiful

However they are there and fortunately some were deleted by the mods.

[saltpoint]

6. Well I hope they would be deleted, but in any case, if they were in fact here they

numbered fewer than you'd need for a good poker game.

Sorry, no sale.

I'm more for the boycott than ever. The Governor has stuck her forearm in a hornet's nest with this one. There will be extended legal challenges, IMO.

A boycott, as we discussed yesterday, is an effective and non-violent means of insisting on principle over policy.

[elocs]

3. Progressives/Liberals are like the right in one sense, that we both believe we have the truth

and that the other side is absolutely wrong. It's what makes the freepers the Party of No and too often makes us the Party of the Self-righteous, convinced that we could not possibly be wrong. We tend to be opposite sides of the same coin, but both would deny it.

[DailyGrind51]

5. After the '68 Dem Convention, when Chicago's Mayor Richard J. Daley had his police club

demonstrators, many Americans hated Chicago also, as a city of thugs and gangsters. They were partially right, but only about the Daley political machine, not the rest of this city.

[gleaner]

7. I'm sorry you feel abandoned ....

I don't think that is what people mean to do. Sometimes you say things when you are angry and frustrated that don't come out the way you mean them. I know that not everyone in Arizona agrees with or supports this law, and I know Arizona also has a Native American population which depends on tourism to some extent and to sales of goods outside the state. I would not like to see a boycott impact on them, or on any people of color who are already impacted by this horrific law.

I planned to write to Brewer and tell her of my contempt for her, her ideas, this law and the others she intends to try and force on the people of Arizona. Arizona has good people and bad people. You can't judge everyone in the state by the governor. If you could everyone here in California would have the same amount of gristle between their ears as Arnold, and believe me we don't.

Maybe it would be helpful if you could give some specific boycott targets and ideas that would hinder the nut jobs without hurting those who despise the nut jobs as much as you do. Any suggestion about action that could be taken to prevent this law from going forward effectively would be good. Also, it may seem like a dumb question, but has anyone contacted the ACLU to see what they would be willing to do, or Amnesty International to try and get Brewer some worldwide publicity, and the contempt that she deserves?

Anyway, I wish you luck and please let me know if there is anything I can do to help. I have MS and the physical stuff is hard in my old age, but I'm a good caller and letter or email writer.

[SargeUNN]

10. I realize the anger and hate, after all I came for Mississippi

however I also saw how the stereotyping of all Mississippians caused more problems and didn't help to resolve them. I just saw a post saying Arizona making Mississippi look smarter and that is unfortunate. Mississippi like Arizona has some wonderful people in it and they are just as ashamed of the direction that state is going as we in Arizona are ashamed of this law.

The law isn't in effect yet and the Democratic Party is already planning ways to challenge it. Mayor Gordon of Phoenix is filing a lawsuit to stop it's enforcement and several others are considering approaches to stop it's enforcement.

Personally, right now I think it is way too early to boycott because there are avenues to stop it that are being explored and a boycott might only flame the fire. I think it is much like what I saw in Jim Crow Mississippi where a girl cried that a black man had raped her and an angry mob went to the black community to find the rapist. They beat up one black boy who had been known to have a crush on the girl, but as her story was considered in more reasonable manners, she finally broke down and admitted she made it up because she stayed out too late and didn't want to get in trouble for it.

I say wait and let's see how these lawsuits work out and how Obama and his admin. deal with it first. Let's not be reactionary like the RW did and started invading countries after 9-11. There are still normal avenues to stop this so let's use them first.

edited to correct an error. Sorry but I haven't been sleeping well lately and making lots of errors in my writings. Hope it doesn't affect the message I am trying to send.

[saltpoint]

13. The State Legislature IS the normal avenue in this case and it failed to

monitor its own bigotry.

An egregious bill warrants a national boycott. I support the boycott and hope it takes hold and is sustained until Gov. Brewer is forced to see how ugly and bigoted the bill is.

You write, "Let's not be reactionary like the RW did and started invading countries after 9-11." I don't find that very persuasive. None of us, so far as I know plans an invasion of Arizona or anyplace else.

Your analogy of the rape in Mississippi is way off, IMO.

[SargeUNN]

18. No you are wrong

The next avenue is still in process and that is the legal challenge.

[saltpoint]

19. Sarge, the legal challenge would be obviated if Brewer had had the

guts and clarity to veto the legislation.

She didn't.

No one -- no one at all -- is going to argue against a legal challenge to this bill. I would suspect a huge majority of people on this site would cheer that challenge, in face.

[SargeUNN]

22. wrong it is actually being done

Mayor Phil Gordon is going to do it. There is a thread about it that appeared here yesterday and it was linked to an USA Today article. The lawsuit will happen. As for Brewer many felt she would cave and were preparing for it. She really just killed her getting back in office is what she did. There are even republicans such as the Sec. of State that is against this law so it has support to take it to court.

[saltpoint]

23. I'm up to date on Gordon's suit.

That wasn't the point.

[SargeUNN]

24. sorry server is messing up on me,

Yeah Brewer could have veto it and she got lots of calls to do so. I called and it took several attempts to get on with her office, but finally I got in. The woman told me to say if I was for or against the bill due to high call volumes and I said against it because it was racist. She said we have heard that a lot today, but yet Brewer played to the nuts. She is spineless and has her reasons for being so. I think she probably signed her political demise.

[saltpoint]

25. I hope you're right. She has earned a political demise.

What she did was as cowardly as it was bigoted.

[SargeUNN]

29. me too pal me too

[gleaner]

63. You are sending your message well and very clearly ....

What you say makes sense, and you are very close to the situation. Please keep us all apprised of what is happening to the extent that you can without putting a particular action in jeopardy, and I meant what I said about helping if I can. You are never alone and friendless here. As it was put once, we can fight with each other on DU and say harsh things but when someone needs help we do come together to help them even if there have been differences in the past. It is a good community. Take care and try to sleep. This is one I don't think will be allowed to slip by, and it does show the Tea Baggers as they really are. Not freedom fighters, but a dangerous lunatic fringe which is trying to attack the federal government in any way they can. People do see this and they do hear them and what they say and do is repellent.

[sailor65]

8. We love to hate here at DU

and sadly, we're quite good at it. We become the monsters we fight......

[Fla_Democrat]

9. As a Floridian*..

I can tell you, you get use to it. :evilgrin:


*Over a decade of "Floriduh" comments, and still going

[Dappleganger]

51. True.

But it can still be frustrating because there are some good people who campaign hard down here for change.

[pinboy3niner]

11. There's no way to "target" a boycott so 'right-thinking' people are not affected

Boycotts are about economic pressure, and they do have trickle-down effects--and there's no way to target those efects.

What your'e appealing for is a LIMITED boycott, which dilutes the purpose. To put the personal over the PRINCIPLE would be a mistake. We sympathize with you, but resistance against this law is necessary, and it cannot be half-hearted. Only a broad-based boycott has a hope of succeeding.

[SargeUNN]

14. Boycott right now is too early

It is jumping the gun as I explained above. If you are going to call for a boycott then you need to start boycotting California, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Virginia, Kansas, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Nevada, Minnesota (just due to having Bachmann in office alone), Nebraska, Arkansas, Texas, and all the other states where crazies have passed stupid laws, or elected stupid people who are creating the problems.

The process to stop this law is still in effect so jump the gun and kill that you insure the law will gain support enough any hope of overturning in the courts will die.

[pinboy3niner]

28. Sorry, no such thing as "too early." Sarge

We're not talking about just a "stupid law." There are lots of those, obviously. But they don't come anywhere near rising to the level of something so racist, so offensive to our humanity.

This is not just another stupid law. It's much, much more. And I know you oppose it as much as the rest of us do. We all know this is worth the fight--most of us just don't want to fight with one hand tied bhind our back.

Certainly, the courts will be involved. But after 2000 and recent SCOTUS decisions, we can't help being uncertain about cases that should be a lock. Our choice is to wait and see, or be the change--and we'd prefer to be the change.

[workinclasszero]

89. Too early? Really?

Arizona just legalized apartheid in the good ole US of A! The teabaggers that obviously control Arizona just wiped their asses with the constitution! Freeper/teabaggers are LOVING the now legal persecution of US citizens because their skin is brown! Plus it suppresses the democratic vote this fall, what a cowinkie-dink, eh? The freep teabaggers want to take apartheid nationwide now!

But still to early to boycott? Uh ok.

I guess we could wait till the entire country has jackbooted reTHUGlicans on every street corner demanding your papers. Well no, that might still be jumping the gun.

Lets wait till the teabaggers outlaw elections and start up death camps for those dirty brown and black democrats and their white socialist friends, yeah thats the ticket!:sarcasm:

When will democrats learn? WHEN??

[SargeUNN]

15. Look at Martin Luther King's boycotts

Notice they were well planned and targeted. He did see to it that the group he was fight for didn't suffer as bad had he not included them in his plans.

[TheKentuckian]

60. Not true, the protesters themselves often took hits

[EFerrari]

16. If you don't know how progressives differ from the right

maybe you should spend some time sorting that out instead of arguing, over and over, against this boycott. Which is happening and which has nothing to do with hating Arizona.

[boppers]

17. Flag and Tucson rocks, but supporting PHX is like supporting the KKK.

Arizona is one of the best places on earth, but it has a serious, malignant, cancer.

[SargeUNN]

21. Flag is nice so is Tucson

Phoenix is ok but yeah we have more than our share of nuts here. We also have a pretty strong progressive community that is certainly an honor to be part of. Sadly the collapse of Nova M Radio Network and the division the Drobny's brought about has caused wounds to our community, but it will heal. Sadder still that event came close to elections so it took the focus off the elections and might have aided in re-electing Arpaio. Shelly and Anita didn't do us any favors, nor did Dr. Mike Newcomb's statement of, " I like Joe, Joe is a good guy." Also he didn't even know that Dan Saban was running when a caller asked him about Saban following that statement. Newcomb is now the one with KPHX. Hope he has educated himself more on Arpaio since he took over when Jeff Farias was fired. We need a good strong progressive station here but we still have groups that work hard and try to help progressive causes here in Phoenix.

[saltpoint]

20. There is no evidence at all of hatred "toward all of Arizona" on this site.

[SargeUNN]

26. Saltpoint look there is some

I said it isn't a lot but there are some. In one thread I had over 9000 views and some had to be deleted because they were so hateful. In another thread someone even tried to challenge one person from Arizona as to if they were a progressive and knowing that person and reading their post, it was totally insulting and uncalled for just because she was stating her views on why a boycott was not good, that person attacking her insulted all the progressives in Arizona, and I even felt it was insulting.

[saltpoint]

30. If there's hatred toward all Arizona, I truly have not seen it. I seen a lot of

people post in praise of the place, both before and after 1070 was signed by the cowardly Governor Brewer.

I'm done some time in Tempe myself.

I've frozen my ass off in Flagstaff on January day. The wind whips up those canyons somethin' fierce.

I'm sorry, but I just don't think people here dislike Arizona or Arizonans. Our objection, and it is as fierce as that Flagstaff wind, is to 1070 and the spirit in which it was forged.

[SargeUNN]

32. well hope you are correct and I think it just might be a few

who can't see past their anger. Also I have noticed that any topic, even this one will have a rec and suddenly get so many unrec that it never gets back to one. I saw at the start of this one that it had one and now that is gone and probably even if a few do rec it then it will won't past zero. I think there might be some assholes who are doing just because they think they are cute but really they are just showing they aren't very smart and childish. Guess we all have to endure such knuckleheads in all sites.

[socialist_n_TN]

87. Agreed. I have seen an almost universal.................

hatred of this repugnant LAW, but not a lot of blanket statements about the people of AZ.

Unfortunately, I think that the boycott idea might be the best one to keep the heat on the AZ. legislature until this POS statute gets annulled. And, as importantly as repeal of this law is, the boycott might make legislators in OTHER states that might be thinking about something like this, think TWICE about enactment. You know, states like Tennessee. :)

There are a majority of RW squirrels in the legislature of this state now AND a large Latino population. I could see it coming here. We in the Peoples Republic of Nashville and Davidson County would be hurt the most by a boycott (a LARGE tourism industry), but I'd support it if the idiots passed something like that here.

[YOY]

27. I've lived there...it's not all red.

I know some fairly progressive folks there...and some idiotic knuckledraggers.

[SargeUNN]

31. Yeah the progressive community in Arizona is alive

it might be shocked and battered but it isn't dead and it will fight this horrendous law.

[Saturday]

33. For every person who says they will boycott AZ there is another

who thinks the opposite and wants to support them. We are a 50/50 nation. You only hear one side on DU.

[customerserviceguy]

37. On this issue, it's not 50/50

I'd say that for every 3 boycotters there are 4 who would actively seek to spend money in Arizona, and another three who would at least think about it. Illegal immigration is a very hot button issue right now across the US, and polarization over it will rip this country apart.

I favor the status quo, leaving the present illegal workers in their status. If we grant them amnesty, they will just join the ranks of the unemployed, as business and farmers look for new undocumented workers to exploit.

Short of a national ID card, we're not going to be able to keep people out of the US who are willing to get here illegally, and I'm not for such an ID.

[SargeUNN]

44. interesting

I think you make an interesting statement that certainly should be considered.

[slackmaster]

47. My job includes supporting a data center in Arizona. "Boycotting" the state is not an option.

The idea frankly offends me.

I have friends and family there too.

[Raineyb]

72. I find the law that was passed a hell of a lot more offensive than the idea of

boycotting Arizona.

And let's face it this is not the first time Arizona has been on the receiving end of a boycott. If I remember correctly, there was one to make the state recognize MLK day as well. So let's not pretend that this law is some abhorrent occurrence that doesn't reflect the power structure of the state when we all know perfectly well that it does.

I stand with those who will be victimized by this law. Attempting to avoid afflicting the more comfortable in this situation is no excuse for tacitly approving of the state by sending dollars there if it can be avoided.

[political_Dem]

88. +10000

[Lyric]

34. I'm sorry if you're feeling offended and/or frightened at the repercussions of a boycott, but

I cannot imagine anything more effective than for Arizona to lose a huge chunk of their tourism money, especially since summer is coming. Far fewer families taking Grand Canyon, Painted Desert, or Sedona vacations. Far fewer hikers (who tend to be liberal) buying those precious hiking and camping permits along the Colorado River. An alarming number of empty seats at professional sports games. I don't think it would take long at all for people to come to their senses. When the dumbass racist Freeper types are forced to choose between a drastic increase in taxes in order to avoid losing vital government services and rescinding that law so that the tourists come back, which do YOU think they'll pick?

It sucks that innocent people get caught up in it, but innocent people are ALWAYS caught up in a boycott. That is the nature of the beast. Do you think that when black citizens boycotting the Montgomery bus system, the ONLY people who suffered were guilty, racist white people? Hell no. It's damned hard to have to walk 10 miles to work and back every day if you don't have a friend with a car, but the people in Montgomery who were participating in the boycott were willing to make that sacrifice. I'm sure lots of people lost their jobs. They were attacked and threatened, and the city targeted their carpools by trying to force insurance companies to stop insuring cars owned by black people. The difference between then and now is that back then, people didn't complain about sacrifice for a greater good. People who supported the boycott understood that the victory was worth the hardship. They prevailed in the end because they were RIGHT and they were willing to stand up for it and deal with some hardship in order to see justice done.

No, MLK did not "abandon" the ones who were helping him fight--but along the same lines, the ones who "fought the fight" (as you put it) were willing to VOLUNTEER their hardship in pursuit of the cause. They willingly accepted the negative consequences, because they knew that no good could come around without sacrifice. They banded together to help ease the individual burden, and they did it largely WITHOUT complaining. Nowadays, people only seem to support boycotts so long as THEY are not inconvenienced or harmed. It's like people think that boycotts are supposed to be easy.

[SargeUNN]

39. first let me tell you it isn't offended by any boycott

I lived in the Jim Crow South and saw those boycotts. I lived through them and honestly didn't get bothered by them that much in the family I was in. They even laughed about it. What offends me but doesn't scare me (it is hard to scare me anymore since the hell I went through after Katrina) is that people act out there anger with stereotyping and it turns into a hate directed in a general direction. I saw this when I was in Air Force basic training. I was from Mississippi and according to my flight members I was automatically KKK. No matter what I said or did, being from Mississippi I was KKK. They kept telling me about Williams from Harlem New York and how he would "kill" me and straighten my hate of blacks out, even though they had only the fact I was from Mississippi to base their irrational view on.

Well Williams and I met during KP one day. He brought in a tray of food and told me how to place it. I asked him how much he had pulled KP and he shocked me with a huge number. I looked at his cap and he had "Midnight" on it and I asked him why. He told me he was from Harlem and that they made fun of him as a teen because he had to be in by midnight so they put the name on him. He liked it so he kept it. Well, he and I talked and became very good friends. We were on break smoking a cigarette and we brought up how people expected us to fight just because he was from Harlem and me from Ms. so we came up with a plan to play on that stereotyping. One night it was very dark and very quiet, so I decided it was time to put our plan into action. I yelled to Midnight, "Hey Midnight, I can still see you." The tension got so obvious that you could feel the fear that a big explosion was about to happen and all held their breaths waiting for Midnight to explode. He let everyone soak it in and then he gave a huge laugh and so did I, then the others saw the stupidity of their stereotyping and they started to laugh so loud that the speaker burst out the notice to shut up or face punishment. People started finding out that we had planned it to show their stereotyping was causing them to make it worse and that Midnight and myself had been hoping when we met that we wouldn't find that person we had been warned about. Gladly we hadn't. The others in the flight started to see how they had done damage just because of it and soon it became a pattern for us to remind each other of how jumping to false thoughts were easy and how realizing to judge things accordingly were far better.

I have an opening song on my show that was written by a woman in New York and she and her husband sent it to me because of my Katrina work. They had a negative impression of southerners and when they would hear me tell of the problems in the Katrina area and what I was trying to do, they learned of my progressive ideals and it confused them. They couldn't believe the progressive thoughts coming from a southern accent and it made the aware they had stereotyped southerners just based on the political garbage coming out of the south so often. To honor me and to show their concern I had awaken in them over the horrors of Katina, they wrote new words to the song Dixie that told of the suffering I had described to Malloy, the failure of Bush and how Mississippi had fallen for Bush and he had broken their heart. I really didn't realize it was Dixie because I had been so awed by the words, but then it hit me it was Dixie. Malloy was a guest on my show once at KPHX and he was impressed by the song and remarked about it. When I told him who wrote it, he was even more blown away and remarked how remarkable the song was. I am sure some listen to it and without listening to the words don't realize it isn't the same song, that the words talk about Katrina and the way the South was betrayed by Bush. It hardly glorifies the same message the song in it's normal use does, but again a stereotype is a stereotype. One guy at KPHX questioned the song and when I asked if he had listened to it he said no, so he did and he (a black man) said it was one version of Dixie he liked.

I guess in my own haphazard way, I am saying some are already starting to form that stereotype of Arizona and I am trying to get them to not rush to it, to use reason, logic, and not dismiss evidence to the opposite. I have seen it too often so maybe I am more sensitive to it than most, but it does happen. I also am guilty at times of it. I constantly have to fight not to put all of Texas in the same mindset as Chuck Norris, Bush and the other trash they have had to share a state with. However I know too many good Texans to buy into it, but still I have to fight not to.

[indago]

35. Reason enough...

"No folks this law really sucks"

No, it doesn't!

Reason enough...

Journalist Brady McCombs wrote for Arizona Daily Star 30 March 2010:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neighbor ranchers of the slain Robert Krentz say they had been warning U.S. officials for years that somebody would be killed if they didn't gain control of this dangerous smuggling corridor where armed burglaries have become a daily occurrence. Now, they're demanding immediate action. Krentz, a longtime rancher, was shot and killed Saturday in Cochise County, by a likely southbound smuggler, who authorities believe escaped into Mexico. "The Mexican outlaws have total control, and it's going to get worse," said Ed Ashurst, whose 53,000-acre ranch is just east of the Krentz ranch. "There is going to be more bloodshed." ...Ranchers in the unincorporated community of Apache, about 25 miles northeast of Douglas, say they'll now be more vigilant when they encounter illegal immigrants.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's probably just as well that it was the rancher that got shot. If he had shot the assailant, he just might have lost his ranch.

Journalist Beth DeFalco wrote for the Tucson Citizen 19 August 2005:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
An Arizona ranch that once served as the headquarters for a civilian group watching for illegal immigrants has been turned over to two people caught trying to enter the United States illegally.

The ranch was conveyed to satisfy a judgment against its owner, Casey Nethercott, a member of a self-styled border-watch group that seeks to protect private property from illegal immigrants crossing the border from Mexico. Nethercott had been accused of terrorizing the immigrants when he and others caught them in Texas.

Morris Dees Jr., co-founder and chief trial counsel of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which represented the immigrants, said he hoped the ruling would serve as a cautionary tale to landowners or civilian patrols.

The transfer of the Douglas, Ariz., ranch outraged border-watch groups.

"If the federal government was doing its job, ranchers would not be living in fear," said Chris Simcox, president of Minuteman Civil Defense Corp., a group that watches for illegal immigrant crossings and reports them to the U.S. Border Patrol.

"They can't even protect their own property for fear of these frivolous lawsuits when people are trespassing on property," he said. Ranchers "are held captive by the federal government who tells them, 'Well, we can't protect you but you can't do anything to protect yourself."'
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anytime our border security is breached, the perp should be detained and a report made and sent to the Congress. The Secretary for Homeland Security should be brought before the Congress and questioned about our security breach, and to make a full accounting of the perp. This should be done for each and every perp that breaches our security. The Secretary for Homeland Security would have to take up residency in the committee chambers.

Meanwhile, the perp should be put on a chain gang, and used to clean up our streets and highways to earn his keep in jail.

[fishwax]

69. no, not reason enough -- and Nethercott lost his ranch as a result of his own illegal actions

"Anytime our border security is breached, the perp should be detained and a report made and sent to the Congress. The Secretary for Homeland Security should be brought before the Congress and questioned about our security breach, and to make a full accounting of the perp. This should be done for each and every perp that breaches our security. The Secretary for Homeland Security would have to take up residency in the committee chambers.

"Meanwhile, the perp should be put on a chain gang, and used to clean up our streets and highways to earn his keep in jail."

The first is a perfectly stupid suggestion. The second is just :puke:

[indago]

82. MORE REASON...

From CNN 7 June 2006:
---------------------------------------------------
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Audra Schmierer has been a stay-at-home mom for six years. Now that her son is in school, she wants to return to work. So she applied to a temp agency.

AUDRA SCHMIERER, ID THEFT VICTIM: They called me three or for hours later and said, "Mrs. Schmierer, I don't understand why you're applying. You already work here."

WIAN: At a big tech company, a similar experience.

SCHMIERER: There's my driver's license, my passport, my Social Security card. I gave them everything. And she said, "Well, really, how can you actually prove you are you? What if those people have the same documentation you do?"

WIAN: Schmierer has discovered more than 200 illegal aliens throughout the United States are doing jobs Americans supposedly won't do by using her Social Security number. They work in fast-food chains, cosmetic companies, even receive dividends from Microsoft.

SCHMIERER: I started to gather all this information and really found out how extreme the situation was. It's scary.

WIAN: Her ordeal began last year with a bill from the IRS for nearly $16,000 in back taxes for a job in Texas. She lives in Dublin, California.

SCHMIERER: My husband was actually quite upset. He asked me when I had ever been to Texas.

WIAN: She tracked down the illegal alien whose phony tax return triggered the IRS bill. He told her he bought her Social Security number and a fake green card at this Texas flea market.

SCHMIERER: I don't understand how illegal aliens can come across here and commit a felony -- identity theft is a felony -- and be excused from that felony to continue living their life when I cannot live my life.

WIAN: By January, Schmierer faced a $1 million IRS bill. She was temporarily detained by Customs, returning from a foreign business trip with her husband. And her Social Security account now shows a zero balance, erasing 14 years of work before her marriage.

SCHMIERER: Social Security right now sends me to IRS. IRS sends me to Social Security. Every now and then, they'll send me to the FTC, whom I have a case with.

No one wants to do anything about it. Right now, I have nowhere to go.

WIAN: Schmierer spends several hours a day trying to clear her name. The IRS has cancelled her bill, but Social Security won't give her a new number. She says all 35 employers she's contacted have refused to take action against the workers using her number.

SCHMIERER: It's cheap labor, and they don't care.

WIAN: Neither do most senators. John Ensign brought Schmierer's case to their attention, and they still approved Social Security benefits for illegal aliens using stolen identifies.

SEN. JOHN ENSIGN (R), NEVADA: The crime of identity theft and Social Security fraud are not victimless crimes. The victims of these crimes are American citizens and legal immigrants.

WIAN: And in this case, the victim is the granddaughter of a World War II veteran who emigrated legally to the United States from Guadalajara, Mexico.

Meanwhile, the Social Security Administration says it investigates reports of fraud but wouldn't say if it's investigating any of the cases related to Audra Schmierer. The IRS says it can't penalize employers who believe they are accepting legitimate Social Security numbers.
---------------------------------------------------

[olegramps]

36. I was under the impression that the law has popular support.

This is a prime example of what happens when politicians are forced to make a choice between appeasing their constituents and having the backbone to oppose legislation that is nothing more than racist hate mongering. Republicans have demonstrated time and time again that they will choose whatever will assure them continued support of their base. It would have taken real courage and leadership for the Governor to have vetoed the bill. I hope that her lack of courage will plague her to her last days on this earth and she will be remembered as being the racist's whore of Arizona.

[SargeUNN]

40. Yeah I saw that poll too but

the part people don't notice it was taken from a sample of 500 "random" people and it was Rassmussen (however the right wing poll is spelled) and really doesn't reflect the views of all. The truth is most don't approve of it but they do feel something should be done about this issue.

[jberryhill]

38. "I lived in Mississippi until 3 years ago"

Hmmmm.... so you move to AZ and this happens.

Look, until this gets sorted out, just stay where you are and don't go to any other states.

[SargeUNN]

41. ha ha ha ha

I was thinking the same thing. LOL

[Rowdyboy]

42. Welcome to the club....As a Mississippian for years I've caught ignorant shit from assholes....

who think everyone down here is a big-bellied redneck George Bush lover.

Some people are simply too dim to go beyond their simplistic prejudices for a deeper understanding. Arizona has plenty of good progressive Democrats-they're simply not in charge right now. Why hate the whole state for that?

[KharmaTrain]

45. I'm Boycotting Any Travel Til These "Laws" are Repealed...

But, I also will be making a special effort to support Arizona Democrats...contributing to help make the state bluer.

I used to travel to see Spring Training and have many friends who live in and around Phoenix (Chicago's Miami), but this draconian law reminds me too much of the regressive laws my grandparents had to endure in Eastern Europe that led them to come to this country. While I'm sorry there may be people who are hurt by any boycott, those wounds are nothing compared to the humiliation and danger those who are of Hispanic decent now face. Maybe it'll wake up enough voters to reject the current losers who are turning your beautiful state into a national and international disgrace.

My boycott is very targeted...I don't want any of my money going to taxes that pay for these fascist's salaries or to to enforce this obscene violation of human rights and decency. However, where I can, I will have your back...ready to do what I can from my northern perch to help make this "law" the undoing of the GOOP in your state and then to make a triumphant return.

You are not alone...

[SargeUNN]

48. I respect that

Boycott the Diamondbacks, boycott any Arizona Corporation that supports this law or it's groups, I am all with that idea. Some have said they won't support any candidate in Arizona which is sad because we have a good one in Rodney Glassman who is trying to run his campaign against the McCain/Hayworth winner on no donations larger than 20 dollars from any source (I am not sure if he will abandon that but he is wanting it to be the case) and Rodney is a progressive that would be a great Senator. I hope people will donate to Glassman and other good candidates like Rebecca Schneider running against Jeff Flake.

[KharmaTrain]

50. I've Already Donated To Glassman...Will Probably Do So Again...

I also have donated in the past to Gabrielle Giffords in the Tucson area.

Yesterday I donated to the Glassman campaign...and have him on the list for the general election. I strongly encourage all others who can spare a couple bucks to do the same.

This is reminiscent of the Evan Mecham days...you folks did the right thing with him...time to do some housecleaning again. This may just be the incentive.

[lunatica]

46. Yeah, but you never hear of a DUer doing anything more than talk

which is a good thing. Forums are for blowing off the steam that builds up over injustices done. It's actually a good thing. No one is threatening Arizonans for real. Don't get confused between how people feel about state legislators and the people of a state.

[Better Today]

52. Hatred? I've not seen hatred. I've seen some serious zero tolerance though.

[DevonRex]

53. In what part of Arizona do brown people not have to worry about showing "papers?"

[azmouse]

54. I'm concerned too.

They knee-jerk reactionary posts against a law that hasn't even taken effect yet are upsetting.... especially when I'm sure most of us here on DU are Democrats who hate this law. No one seems to want find out what they can do help us here in AZ to fight this law, they just want to fling shit. It's sad.

[EFerrari]

58. People starting posting actions and information on Friday night.

[DonCoquixote]

55. Welcome to the club

coming from down here in Sunny Florida, where we turned Blue, no thanks to a lot of arrogant types in Blue States, and people still want to saw us off the map!

[tavalon]

56. You're the one who came up with Juan Crow, right?

Sir, I am proud of you and your fellow Arizonians, getting out into the street and making a fuss, just as it should be. I'm pissed at your useless lege and just as useless Gov., not at the people. The people are currently kicking ass and taking names.

[jillan]

57. I'm just hoping that some of these people realize that if this law cannot be stopped, it just might

be coming to a state near them. Don't they realize that the Haley Barbour's of the country are salivating over this law?

We need solidarity against this bill all over the country. Protests all over the nation against it. Brewer set the precedent, be careful for what may follow.

[azmouse]

59. kick

[TheKentuckian]

61. Sarge, you've written some heartfelt posts on this but I think you are wrong about boycotts here

ANY boycott will hit the least among us first and most heavily. You've indicated being fine with hitting the sports teams while you outright ignore that folks like those who sell merchandise and concessions will get slaughtered. Folks working in the hospitality industry will get drilled. People running restaurants and various service industries will take big hits. What do you think can be done to target only the wealthy and the backward? To be honest, I think you're whistlin Dixie on this but I'd love see what you suggest that magically leaves the least unscathed but has an impact enough to change a lot of minds.

THAT IS THE WAY SUCH THINGS WORK but no bucks no Buck Rogers. Arizona must be made an example of, in my opinion. With the bigoted/anti-migrant sentiment and the boldness of radical regressive in full swing this cancer could spread across the country.

You're not being abandoned but it would be best for our nation and our civil rights to bring Arizona's economy to dead crawl if it breaks the will of those behind this "law".

NIP IT IN THE BUD!!!! NIP IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry brother but we don't have time to educate and wait while the progressive minority magically turns over the state house and the legislature. You probably have a rather clear majority that supports this and at the very least a near plurality. This isn't the first time for Arizona and there is what appears to be pretty broad racism as illustrated by their massive resistance to MLK day.

Arizona needs to be hammered for the good of the country and the sooner the better and less the harm to regular folks. Bullies are best dealth with by laying out an asswhipping for them.

Dry powder ain't gonna fix shit on this, the concept is too popular in certain quarters but it is new and therefore weak. If we let this take root then it'll be just like everything else that is "politically impossible" to deal with and we will have created another lower caste.

If you take this as hate then I'll have to live with your misimpression.

[azmouse]

64. The MLK fiasco was 20 years ago.

The population of AZ has grown by about 3,000,000 since then. That is almost double from 1990.
Much of the population growth has been from births since the MLK situation or people that moved here (they weren't here at the time it happened like myself).
Seems a shame to keep broadbrushing the whole state since many were not here when that happened.

[BlooInBloo]

67. Oh. Well. There you go. It was 20 years ago. Wait a minute...

You're telling me it was 20 years ago, and the Bigot State electorate is just as fucking shitty today?

I call that "a bad investment of my dollars".

:rofl:

[azmouse]

68. I've seen how you are enjoying the plight of Arizonans

who had nothing to do with the current situations. We are not enjoying it and it is nothing to laugh at.

[BlooInBloo]

70. You may wish to consider channeling your energy to changing your shitty electorate's opinion...

rather than whining at other people for not helping to prop them up.

(shrug) But it's still America - outside of The Bigot State at least - so do as you wish.

Wow. 20 years later, and still just as shitty down there. Astonishing.

[azmouse]

71. Like I said, it is NOT all Arizonans.

Good for you that you live in an obvious paradise of liberal thought. :eyes:

[BlooInBloo]

74. Whatever gets you through the night.

[SargeUNN]

76. Such a statement is exactly why I posted this thread

If you check on me you will see I have been a very active person in this, I have posted that I called and talked to Brewer's office, I have done radio shows on this, I have called state reps. and done everything I can. You may mean well in your statement but you don't seem to be aware of my work here in Arizona and must not know of how I have put my life on the line in other situations. Personally you have offended me on this statement and have proven just exactly the same kind of stereotyping that I am urging to avoid in this thread.

[BlooInBloo]

78. I'm pretty sure I'll never take white folks complaining about stereotypiing against them seriously.

Ever.

Even less so in the context of an anti-brown-person law. But never fear - I'm only one white guy among many. There remain many, many more who will be more than happy to join you in your "reverse racism" pity party.

Have fun!

[SargeUNN]

80. Stereotyping of any group is dangerous

I have already in this thread shown how it hurts the wrong ones. Remember my story about how because I was from Mississippi that I was automatic a racist, a KKK member and when I went into the Air Force that in spite of any actions or words it was assumed? As my flight members found out they had stereotyped me just based on a generalization they had bought into and applied to all. Thanks to the level headed and reasonable mind of my black friend we were able to get others to see not to make all Southerners racist just because they are from the South. That is just as dangerous as the Southerners who say that the people in the North are out to crush the South and hate us so we must not vote for them no matter how much we might like their position. Such stereotyping on both sides is a cancer and dangerous. We must be careful not to stereotype any group of people like that. It is just what these racist want.

[BlooInBloo]

81. I know, I know. Poor downtrodden white folks.

Oh - and kindly show me just ONE person who EVER said that *all* southerners (or Bigot State residents) are racist.

Show me one, else admit you're simply making shit up.

[azmouse]

79. Sarge, this sad stuff is all over this site.

It's like everyone wants to pile on the insults while they have a chance. The view from their cheap seats must be great.

I've lived in AZ full-time since 1994. I've met many wonderful people who are here to work to improve Arizona. I'm glad you've joined us here. I think this horrible law may be just what this state needed to cause many to wake up and take action. This law will not stand. I really believe that. If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.

[Jennicut]

62. RW assholes exist in every state. I mean, I love Connecticut but Lieberman WAS reelected.

Down the street from me is a teabagger. They are EVERYWHERE! DU is the community of liberals. That community is bigger then any state. And most of us here hate that law, not the people in AZ against it.
That being said, AZ is just too darn hot for me to ever move to.

[Iggo]

65. Par for the course, man.

You shoulda seen it when all of California voted Yes on Prop Hate, so we could take rights away from all the gays.

It's just Arizona's turn.

[BlooInBloo]

66. Concern, noted.

[dorkulon]

73. And there are plenty of Morans in VT, but

a state rises and falls by its majority. Of course anyone calling AZ stupid or racist knows there are a number of sane and decent people there. They're just astounded that so many people there are OK with what's happening.

[branders seine]

75. welcome to the South,

which has been ostracized and condemned in totality on DU since the beginning.

[sabrina 1]

77. I don't think anyone worth worrying about thinks that

everyone in Arizona is represented by its State Legislature or by Joe Arpaio and his criminal mob of enforcers. But the fact is that in some of the polls I've seen so far, 70% of Arizonans support this law. Some probably dont' realize what it actually will do, but that's not very promising in terms of letting the political process deal with such a racist law.

I wish that every state that tries something like this would get a national reaction. Sometimes it takes the outside world to help a state or a country get their act together once they get into the grip of thugs and racists.

I'm sorry to say that if the country doesn't intervene in this it will eventually just be accepted, not liked maybe, but most don't like the Patriot Act either, but it's still on the books because there was not enough action taken to stop it.

This law doesn't just affect Arizona. There are several other states that are watching this and if Az isn't stopped, they will be only too pleased to try it also, taking this country back to the days of Jim Crow.

Citizens need to be vigilent, no matter what state they live in when the issue is one as serious as this.

It's like pulling a tooth, the faster it is done, the less painful it will be. We cannot wait for the political process to finally get around to rescinding this law. It could take decades. That process, together with the many good people of Az couldn't stop it. Now, it seems you all need outside help and lots of people are more than willing to provide it.

Thank you and everyone in Az who have struggled to stop this bill. Once a bill is passed, it is very difficult to get it rescinded. And even if a Dem. is elected as Governor, with the polls the way are right now, I doubt that s/he would be willing to overturn that bill. So, it looks like it will have to come from outside.

[Hubert Flottz]

83. Now you know how West Virginia has felt since 1863...

You get used to it.

[panzerfaust]

85. I'm a little concerned about totalitarianism

as I bet all the "Good Germans" who kept quite were in the 1930s.

I choose not to keep quite about a state which so blatantly is supporting a totalitarian form of government, which so loudly and proudly is, in fact, setting up a Police State where any person can be accosted by the police (sorry, "Police") at any moment.


Freedom from unconstrained police harassment is essential to a free society.

[a la izquierda]

86. Try living in Oklahoma and being a Leftist.

:shrug: I've pretty well given up on caring. I realize most people figure out that there are leftists and Dems in Oklahoma. They know it's not *my* fault that the stupid reigns the day here, and that there are a lot more of them.
Hey, our 16th century House just overturned our Dem gov's veto of a heinous abortion bill. You just have to figure out a way to deal with the criticism.