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I don't think we can have a serious discussion on immigration in this country

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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 02:55 PM
Original message
I don't think we can have a serious discussion on immigration in this country
That is one thing that worries me about bringing forward an immigration bill. I know it must be tackled, but I wish that we could wait until a time when cooler, more dispassionate heads could prevail.
But that time will never come. Republicans in particular will use any hint that some "other" may get slightly special treatment to rage on and on and stir up their crazies.

We certainly need comprehensive reform. We need laws that make sense. We need laws that are fair. Therefore they need to be discussed and debated in an atmosphere where ideas can be seriously advanced, discussed and altered. An atmosphere where ideas can be accepted or rejected on their merits not for what can be used to whip up the crazies.

The waiting period is a great opportunity for those opposed to reform to whip up fear and more fear.
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree with you,
although I will say that there are crazies on both sides of the argument - it's the relatively dispassionate 'middle' that is being drowned out by the extreme views on either side.
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. A time when "cooler, more dispassionate heads could prevail"???
Never will there be such a time...just look back at the history of immigration in the early 20th century, particularly as it pertains to the Irish...immigrants have always been the scapegoat.
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county worker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. Immigration is a problem without a solution.
Many people see the problem from opposite points of view. Many immigrants do not want more restrictive laws. Many other want tough restrictions yet tougher restrictions are almost impossible to implement do to the costs involved and that any new law will be abused just as current laws are abused.

Like you say, people cannot openly and rationally discuss this issue. One big missing piece of the puzzle is the cooperation Mexico in solving this problem. The disparity of incomes among countries in North and Central America is the crux of the problem and until that is dealt with there is nothing we can do here.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. It's really about class warfare.
Edited on Mon Apr-26-10 03:11 PM by Cleita
Until everyone is treated the same, there is no solution that I see. I think clamping down on the businesses and corporations who hire the immigrants could be a beginning but there is so much more, like changing our policy in Latin America, like not backing every oppressive dictator, who are willing to look the other way, while American businesses exploit the resources of those countries. That would have to change. I think pigs will fly first.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. Thom Hartmann was talking about that today. Imigration hasn't been
dealt with since Reagan and that was back in the 80's! Thom's idea is much the same as mine. Grant some kind of amnesty ciupled with some punishment for those already here & go after the employers to stop any future problems. Make the employer fines so high that it's just not worth it to them to hire any non-documented workers!

nothing is going to be easy to get through the Congress though. Dems want to protect everyone too much & the Pubs want to protect the corporations too much.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. Also we need to lay off leaders like Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales who are
actually trying to make life better for the campesinos in their own country whether we agree with their politics or not. Those poor and downtrodden wouldn't have any desire to come here for a better life if they had hope for a better life in their own countries.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. "Trying to use logic or "fact" in the cocoon of the immigration debate is like firing a bullet at
Uranus. It will never hit the target, because the people on said target are living in their own insular world. Immigration is one of those guttural subjects. It festers on rumour and fear and shouting."

Saw this in a CanadaEast.com article on the UK elections. The quote was in reference to the UK immigration debate, but is equally applicable to the US.

http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/opinion/article/1029198

The article goes on: "So while the LibDems in the U.K. consider a long-term system to welcome individuals (they propose a path to earn citizenship for some illegal immigrants), the U.S., Canada, the right-wing parties in the U.K. (I include the Labour Party in that list) and many voters merely consider the quick fix, gut reaction: kick them all out, lock the doors, and enjoy the splendid isolation."

Our own right wing party has that in common with the UK's right wing parties - "the quick fix, gut reaction: kick them all out, lock the doors, and enjoy the splendid isolation."
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. There will NEVER be "cooler, dispassionate heads"
Edited on Mon Apr-26-10 03:52 PM by SoCalDem
Immigration hits at the very core of tribalistic urges of humanity.

Each side has a seemingly benign central issue:

1) people already here who are legal & doing well see immigration from more than one aspect.

....some see it as a way to populate their businesses with cheap, eager labor that does no harm to anyone, because (theoretically) they can charge less for products made cheaper

....some see it as their right to use cheaper labor as long as there is someone there who wants to do the work, and is willing to work for less money to do the task..i.e. housekeeping, childcare, lawn care, car washing, etc.

....many who are here legally and whose families came here too long ago to remember, often have no problem with newer (cheaper) people coming here, as long as they "know their place", and do not "mix" with their children. (these are the folks who can ..and do.. send their children to pricey schools where they are "protected" from riff-raff of all sorts.)

2) people already here who are legal and NOT doing well, see it another way

....some see it as a drain on resources THEY need desperately and are having to share already

....some see it as a challenge to their job-getting chances in a tight job-market, because they are undercut by recent immigrants who will work for less

....some see it as a cause for ever-increasing taxation to pay for the services needed by poor recent immigrants

....people at the "bottom" of the economic ladder who have been "working their way up" may be upset at the fact that there seems to always be someone else coming along, just below them..someone who will try to leapfrog their way ahead.

3) people here who happen to be racist/xenophobic/bigoted people see "newcomers" as a danger to their "way of life". Throughout history, every "new" group has been pretty unwelcome, according to this sliver of society.

4) politicians are equally "mixed" in their response:

....some see newcomers as potential supporters/voters

....some see them as pawns being used by "the other side", and fear a weakening of support from their current supporters, if they offer services & acceptance to new people.

....politicians of all "flavors" see immigration as a dangerous issue because so many groups hold multiple stances within the groups, and it's hard to gauge support for most proposals until they have stuck their neck out..ans that's something pols hate to do.

5) many people here see immigration as a way to allow their family members from "the home country" to join them.

....some already here see family unification as a good thing (as long as they don't have to "pay" for OTHER people's families to be reunited, and the newly united families do not ask for or get services/benefits that their families cannot)

....some see uniting far-flung relatives with people already here, as a bad thing, since every group that becomes more populous, puts pressure on smaller family units who have been here for a long time.

6) people who emigrate, tend to be younger (fertile childbearing years), poor, and if from a third world country, often have cultures that favor large families.

....Large poor families take a lot of nurturing in the early years, and for a cash-strapped older culture, this can be a scary thing.

....Older people who are entering their declining years with a lot less than they anticipated, can see ANY government money spent on anyone BUT themselves, as wasted/pilfered/unearned.

7) Europeans ("white-folks") do not NEED to emigrate as much as in the past, and often their home-base has services & opportunities they like, so why leave?

The facts are what they are:

Immigration from mexico/central america will always be with us. We "touch".

People from other places who have to arrive by boat or plane will face scrutiny that makes it easier to thwart mass-immigration.

People who "visit", and then "over-stay" visas will always be with us because the manpower necessary to oversee and enforce laws will never be funded in a large way.

When immigration touches individual families, it will always be a front-burner issue, but to politicians it will always be another 'election issue"..and then it goes away..until next time.:(

The times when our country has had hard core policies that were followed, have always brought turmoil, and politicians try to avoid repeats of those times.

Look back to some of those :

....Chinese men who "built the west" were often forbidden to being wives, and female Chinese were not allowed to emigrate..
white" women were pretty much off-limits and the language/cultural boundaries made for a pretty miserable existence for most of these young men

....During WWI, people with German surnames were treated with suspicion

....During WWII, we all know what happened to people with Japanese lineage, and again the people with German surnames had problems

....Eisenhower rounded up Mexicans and did deportation.


Humankind survived because people were able to group together. They had internal squabbles & power-struggles , but when "others" threatened the way of life, they banded together to repel the "outsiders". We have evolved somewhat, but the innate fear remains. "Strangers" may plan to do us harm, and the one who struck first had a better chance to prevail. That's the core issue that's been used by politicians forever.

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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. Of course we can: we can argue the facts, and they will say "show me your papers."
And, unfortunately, they WILL be serious.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
10. Not as long as white folks are either bigots, or enable bigots...
That's really the only thing in the way of a "serious discussion".

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
11. The Republians do not want reform.
They make too much money on the backs of Latin American workers both in Latin American AND here. Their extra special bonus is that they also get to scapegoat these workers. Why would Republicans want to take that beautiful scam apart?
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